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The Blind Ass
Bodhi


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Quote:
solarshroomster said: Okay, I'm upset. I know I've said this repeatedly, but this is coming from the heart: I really feel I was lied to. I feel like I was "convinced" into believing that the "other worlds" didn't exist, but now I'm being able to patently "see" it. It's impossible to describe, but do you get this?
I truly, truly do not know why people aren't making a bigger deal about this?
The existence of the universe / reality / Divine / God.
Awareness of the -always already all at once- inclusivity of the nondual nature of mind resolves relative/absolute intellectual dualism.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Glad to hear that is found here. It seems difficult to find active spiritual forums. The thing about spiritual talk is it's essentially saying to be quiet. Maybe the silent forums have all become enlightened. Who knows though, the force can make for new conversation.
Edited by syncro (06/17/23 03:34 PM)
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CreonAntigone
Stranger

Registered: 05/30/21
Posts: 2,875
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: syncro]
#28363929 - 06/18/23 01:16 AM (7 months, 7 days ago) |
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Solar, have you ever read Plato's Republic?
It really goes deep into this issue of the ineffeability of the ultimate, and how people could be tasked to see it more easily. Socrates in the book designs an education system trained to get people attuned to see the Form of the Good, the one-ness that Plato sees as the source of all things, and something that always stays the same for all time.
But the book grapples with the challenge of conveying this ultimate, as one of Socrates' conversants asks him to describe what the Form of the Good is like, and he cannot. He says that one must learn to see it for themselves. It is a special kind of knowledge.
The idea of the cave is all about the relation of mysticism to the regular world, as the philosopher accesses a truth that puts them at a distance from the human community, and they must learn if it is possible to spread that idea to the people, at risk to themselves.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,666
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: CreonAntigone] 1
#28364137 - 06/18/23 08:24 AM (7 months, 6 days ago) |
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The mystical world hides itself, because the first several visionary exepriences deal with the clearing of emotional baggage and stabilizing your usually-neglected health. Think of it as a spaceship, which is prioritizing the guidance system and life support, ahead of exploration.
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solarshroomster
Wonderer



Registered: 11/01/13
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: CreonAntigone]
#28364443 - 06/18/23 02:15 PM (7 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
CreonAntigone said: Solar, have you ever read Plato's Republic?
It really goes deep into this issue of the ineffeability of the ultimate, and how people could be tasked to see it more easily. Socrates in the book designs an education system trained to get people attuned to see the Form of the Good, the one-ness that Plato sees as the source of all things, and something that always stays the same for all time.
But the book grapples with the challenge of conveying this ultimate, as one of Socrates' conversants asks him to describe what the Form of the Good is like, and he cannot. He says that one must learn to see it for themselves. It is a special kind of knowledge.
The idea of the cave is all about the relation of mysticism to the regular world, as the philosopher accesses a truth that puts them at a distance from the human community, and they must learn if it is possible to spread that idea to the people, at risk to themselves.
It was hard to go into anything with the semblance of spirituality when I was told, repeatedly, that it was bullshit in the end. Why bother reading anything, when you can preempt it all with "this is nonsense!" in advance?
To be honest, this understanding was so engrained in me, it's hard to STILL not feel like Plato's thoughts and Socrates book are nothing other than the musings of weak-minded hearts in need of a security blanket.
I'm really frustrated. I was totally lied to.
Do you understand that? I'm peeved out of my mind. They sold me a lie, put me into a state of near psychosis, and then spit in my face and tell me it's raining. And when I say "they spit in my face and tell me it's raining", I mean: they constantly gaslight, telling me I'm not experiencing what I very well know I'm experiencing. Do these people not have eyes to see the higher planes? How are they so missing it? And why do they go all missionary style preaching their gospel of atheism in ignorance to it all?
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
Edited by solarshroomster (06/18/23 02:16 PM)
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,666
Loc: Raccoon City
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The classical philosophers would have considered absolute atheism to be an example of hubris, having anthropomorphized all these forces of nature and human emotions, into marble busts and idols. The capitol buildings are actually made to resemble pagan temples. Civics is a religion.
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CreonAntigone
Stranger

Registered: 05/30/21
Posts: 2,875
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Quote:
solarshroomster said: Do these people not have eyes to see the higher planes? How are they so missing it? And why do they go all missionary style preaching their gospel of atheism in ignorance to it all?
Nietzsche said god is dead, meaning that we no longer have true visionary experiences through religion.
So if you want communal religious experiences, you have to understand that it is a struggle today, and that we'll have to do something entirely new.
According to Nietzsche, god died and we didn't even directly know it, it took a while to feel the impact; churches are tombs to a dead ideal.
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Eggtimer
HotSauce Lover

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 3,097
Last seen: 2 days, 17 hours
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Quote:
solarshroomster said:
Quote:
CreonAntigone said: Solar, have you ever read Plato's Republic?
It really goes deep into this issue of the ineffeability of the ultimate, and how people could be tasked to see it more easily. Socrates in the book designs an education system trained to get people attuned to see the Form of the Good, the one-ness that Plato sees as the source of all things, and something that always stays the same for all time.
But the book grapples with the challenge of conveying this ultimate, as one of Socrates' conversants asks him to describe what the Form of the Good is like, and he cannot. He says that one must learn to see it for themselves. It is a special kind of knowledge.
The idea of the cave is all about the relation of mysticism to the regular world, as the philosopher accesses a truth that puts them at a distance from the human community, and they must learn if it is possible to spread that idea to the people, at risk to themselves.
It was hard to go into anything with the semblance of spirituality when I was told, repeatedly, that it was bullshit in the end. Why bother reading anything, when you can preempt it all with "this is nonsense!" in advance?
To be honest, this understanding was so engrained in me, it's hard to STILL not feel like Plato's thoughts and Socrates book are nothing other than the musings of weak-minded hearts in need of a security blanket.
I'm really frustrated. I was totally lied to.
Do you understand that? I'm peeved out of my mind. They sold me a lie, put me into a state of near psychosis, and then spit in my face and tell me it's raining. And when I say "they spit in my face and tell me it's raining", I mean: they constantly gaslight, telling me I'm not experiencing what I very well know I'm experiencing. Do these people not have eyes to see the higher planes? How are they so missing it? And why do they go all missionary style preaching their gospel of atheism in ignorance to it all?
Don't forget about polarity. For there to be knowledge there must also be ignorance. For us to have this experience as a self contained being we have to taste the illusion of separation and duality. To taste freedom and union there must first be the sense of bondage and separation.
Sometimes ponder time as not just a one way arrow but an arrow going both ways. For you to be where you are now you had to have went thru everything that you've went thru or you would be somewhere else. Point C is because point B was and point A was. Take away those and there's no arriving at point C. This is something that I struggle with but everything we experience is served with the greatest love. Every cell, every feeling, every thought, every perception of pain or pleasure, every being good/evil, microscopic or cosmic is the infinite coursing through the infinite. If we always get only what we want there is no way to go beyond the limited because the desire never arises.
Here is a poem I like "Safe Passage Home"
Quote:
Once upon a time, a long long time ago, Before even Grandfather Sky had given birth to the stars, There was only One Being. One pure consciousness of love resting in the completeness Of its own untold Stories and mute Songs unsung. Then, one day, for reasons that no one remembers, If in fact anyone ever knew, The One became restless. Some say it decided to play a cosmic game of Hide and seek, splitting its Light into Tiny sparks, each with the full potential of the Whole.
In this way the One could know itself and grow itself. So each spark was clothed in a costume of flesh And its Light and wisdom hidden deep within its heart. The challenge of the game was for all parts of the Whole To discover their way back home again Having lived all the Stories and sung all the Songs That would make them wise and compassionate Co-creators and companions to the One.
The fledgling souls took many roads Home. Each Way had its own Story and each soul Responded to that Story with the gift of free will, Embroidering new stories on the dream-tapestry Of the One Great Dreamer.
And the sun rose and the sun set.
The tides came in and the tides went out.
New flesh was born and old flesh went back to the earth.
And the One saw new stories grow in the Theater of the Many. Some of these stories led closer to Home. These were the ones in which fear was conquered by love. Some of these stories led down blind alleys. These were the ones in which love was hidden by fear.
The plays were long and the distractions many. One by one Most souls forgot that they were on a journey at all.
They fell asleep to the First Stories That the One had left as eternal roadmaps and guides So that each soul could find its way Back Home.
Believing that they were alone and separate These lost souls wandered in a strange land Dominated by the illusion that death was real and That love was as transitory as a shadow.
Some sought solace in money, others in power. Some found it in food or drugs or alcohol or anger or Television or possessions, Gossip or judgment or a jealous god Who whispered lies. You are special, you are saved, There is only one way Home and this is it.
In its love and mercy for the lost parts of itself The One sent alarm bells out into the Universe To wake its sparks from their dreams of fear And to guide them back into paths of love and longing For reunion with the Great Cosmic Beloved.
These wake-up calls of pain roused the souls from their sleep of forgetfulness. And their cries for help were heard by their Brothers and sisters throughout the Universe. Seen and unseen helpers came Whenever they were drawn by the intent, The powerful pull of will Of any soul who appealed to the Source With a true longing for reunion, forgiveness and love. And they helped those souls to become free From the bondage of limiting beliefs and Past unloving or ignorant actions
So that they could find a Safe passage Home.
They will give you safe passage, too, If you ask with faith, Even the size of a mustard seed, And if you are patient and willing to listen To the directions of the Universe, Even if they are Not what you wanted to hear.
"Thy will, not mine, be done." This is the understanding That will bring you Home.
Another one of my favorite poems Please Call Me By My True Names
Quote:
Don’t say that I will depart tomorrow— even today I am still arriving.
Look deeply: every second I am arriving to be a bud on a Spring branch, to be a tiny bird, with still-fragile wings, learning to sing in my new nest, to be a caterpillar in the heart of a flower, to be a jewel hiding itself in a stone.
I still arrive, in order to laugh and to cry, to fear and to hope. The rhythm of my heart is the birth and death of all that is alive.
I am a mayfly metamorphosing on the surface of the river. And I am the bird that swoops down to swallow the mayfly.
I am a frog swimming happily in the clear water of a pond. And I am the grass-snake that silently feeds itself on the frog.
I am the child in Uganda, all skin and bones, my legs as thin as bamboo sticks. And I am the arms merchant, selling deadly weapons to Uganda.
I am the twelve-year-old girl, refugee on a small boat, who throws herself into the ocean after being raped by a sea pirate.
And I am also the pirate, my heart not yet capable of seeing and loving.
I am a member of the politburo, with plenty of power in my hands. And I am the man who has to pay his “debt of blood” to my people dying slowly in a forced-labor camp.
My joy is like Spring, so warm it makes flowers bloom all over the Earth. My pain is like a river of tears, so vast it fills the four oceans.
Please call me by my true names, so I can hear all my cries and laughter at once, so I can see that my joy and pain are one.
Please call me by my true names, so I can wake up and the door of my heart could be left open, the door of compassion.
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Beluga
Stranger
Registered: 08/14/22
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28382652 - 07/02/23 01:34 PM (6 months, 23 days ago) |
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Because you are here to have an experience in a physical world. Limitation is an essential part of that goal. I’ll give you some examples. Say you are God, alone in the void, and want to experience innocent love. You will have to differentiate into a limited avatar of young, inexperienced, hormonal youth, with no knowledge of biological sexual dynamics, sexual selection, ect. To feel that experience fully, the longing, the magic, the ecstasy, the mysticism, and everything else that makes innocent young love what it is, you have to restrict your intellect to a certain level of ignorance. Same thing if you want to experience what it is like to be a fish migrating through the sea, or a lion on the hunt. To experience what that really means, your intellect, knowledge, and ability to think must be restricted to that of the lion or fish you want to experience. After you die, you will expand back into God, and will be able to have all your questions answered, and all mysticism will be available to you, but it wont seem so mystical or magical anymore. It will just be seen as what it is-the eternal mind that you are. You will find that gets boring though, and you will need to create, differentiate, and experience again. Like a character in a book, video game, or movie, you will have to have limitations to make the story work. The mystical is a joy to experience or long for here. It adds depth, wonder, joy, hope, and many other valuable things to our experience. If we could experience it and understand it at will, it would cease to be mystical, and would soon become boring. That’s why we cant. Because we chose to be limited in that way so that we could have this avatar and this experience.
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Xorgo
Stranger

Registered: 06/16/23
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: Beluga] 1
#28392359 - 07/11/23 11:31 AM (6 months, 14 days ago) |
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I think reality is fluid. It's always changing, depending who's looking at it
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connectedcosmos
Neti Neti



Registered: 02/07/15
Posts: 7,426
Loc: The Pathless Path
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: Xorgo]
#28392779 - 07/11/23 06:12 PM (6 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Xorgo said: I think reality is fluid. It's always changing, depending who's looking at it
I've certainly noticed that everybodies perception is filtered and influenced through all the experiences that they've ever had collectively up to the point of perceiving in the moment
Very fluidy - think rorschach test
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 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
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solarshroomster
Wonderer



Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 506
Last seen: 3 days, 23 hours
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: connectedcosmos]
#28393213 - 07/12/23 07:32 AM (6 months, 14 days ago) |
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All of these are good replies. I think I'm just Doubting Thomas.
In fact, connectedcosmos' note says it all:
54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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connectedcosmos
Neti Neti



Registered: 02/07/15
Posts: 7,426
Loc: The Pathless Path
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28393505 - 07/12/23 12:44 PM (6 months, 13 days ago) |
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I can try to explain the moon to you in many different ways yet you still will not know what it actually looks like until you see it yourself , in a way I see this at my job while training people to run a machine, you could explain it for 8 hours but they are not going to learn until they do it themselves , muscle memory etc,
And that's kinda knowledge , I think of Gnosis or Vidya which is knowing and if one can know intuitively based off philosophy, look around does anything come from nothing? So simply put if ones discernment is true you can find the Source, God , Dao, Brahman Whatever name you want to give it
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 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
Edited by connectedcosmos (07/12/23 12:53 PM)
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,666
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28393528 - 07/12/23 01:18 PM (6 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
solarshroomster said: I think I'm just Doubting Thomas
There is a mutual rapport, built between both sides.
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solarshroomster
Wonderer



Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 506
Last seen: 3 days, 23 hours
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: connectedcosmos]
#28393723 - 07/12/23 05:24 PM (6 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
connectedcosmos said: I can try to explain the moon to you in many different ways yet you still will not know what it actually looks like until you see it yourself:
Excellent example. I think that's precisely what's going on with doubters of the mystical dimension. You've either seen, or you haven't. It's understandable that if you haven't seen the moon, how are you expected to report back that there even is the moon? And, it's stranger still, for even if you have seen the moon, if there's nothing tangible to relate your experience back to (as is the case in mystical experience), you won't be able to even "describe" it.
You're blowing my mind!!!! Am I the only one who finds this incredible?!!!!
You're talking about the ineffable!!!!! Just a year ago, I thought this stuff was BS.
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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connectedcosmos
Neti Neti



Registered: 02/07/15
Posts: 7,426
Loc: The Pathless Path
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28393747 - 07/12/23 05:40 PM (6 months, 13 days ago) |
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That verse is from the vivekachudamani primarily attributed to Shankaracharya as the composer iirc , so I take no credit for it , I think it's a beautiful metaphor though meant a lot to me so I stuck it in the sig 
The sage can point you the way but in the end its your own discernment
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 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
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Beluga
Stranger
Registered: 08/14/22
Posts: 63
Last seen: 13 days, 14 hours
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: CreonAntigone] 2
#28394797 - 07/13/23 09:31 PM (6 months, 12 days ago) |
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The knowledge is hidden for a reason. If a dog knew the secrets of the universe, he would not be a dog. He would not be able to enjoy the pure feelings of joy and pain that a dog experiences. Same for most people. The limitations they have, intellectual and otherwise, were mostly chosen by them/us/God prior to coming here in order to have that particular experience as a regular person. This is why Plato and Socrates and their peers ultimately concluded what all enlightened people have concluded throughout history. It is useless to cast pearls before swine. They will react violently at the attempt to have their small views altered, and will attack the messenger. This is because they really dont want that knowledge. It would mess up what they are here to experience.
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solarshroomster
Wonderer



Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 506
Last seen: 3 days, 23 hours
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: Beluga]
#28394824 - 07/13/23 09:48 PM (6 months, 12 days ago) |
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Thank you.. Beluga!!
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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solarshroomster
Wonderer



Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 506
Last seen: 3 days, 23 hours
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28394827 - 07/13/23 09:50 PM (6 months, 12 days ago) |
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Okay, now I'm understanding. I just didn't think the world worked like that before...
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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FishOilTheKid
Ascended



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Posts: 5,401
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28395515 - 07/14/23 03:23 PM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
...and will attack the messenger.
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