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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28363367 - 06/17/23 02:21 PM (7 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
Okay, I'm upset. I know I've said this repeatedly, but this is coming from the heart: I really feel I was lied to. I feel like I was "convinced" into believing that the "other worlds" didn't exist, but now I'm being able to patently "see" it. It's impossible to describe, but do you get this?

I truly, truly do not know why people aren't making a bigger deal about this?

The existence of the universe / reality / Divine / God.




Awareness of the -always already all at once-  inclusivity of the nondual nature of mind resolves relative/absolute intellectual dualism.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28363411 - 06/17/23 03:25 PM (7 months, 7 days ago)

Glad to hear that is found here. It seems difficult to find active spiritual forums. The thing about spiritual talk is it's essentially saying to be quiet. Maybe the silent forums have all become enlightened. :smile: Who knows though, the force can make for new conversation.


Edited by syncro (06/17/23 03:34 PM)


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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: syncro]
    #28363929 - 06/18/23 01:16 AM (7 months, 7 days ago)

Solar, have you ever read Plato's Republic?

It really goes deep into this issue of the ineffeability of the ultimate, and how people could be tasked to see it more easily. Socrates in the book designs an education system trained to get people attuned to see the Form of the Good, the one-ness that Plato sees as the source of all things, and something that always stays the same for all time.

But the book grapples with the challenge of conveying this ultimate, as one of Socrates' conversants asks him to describe what the Form of the Good is like, and he cannot. He says that one must learn to see it for themselves. It is a special kind of knowledge.

The idea of the cave is all about the relation of mysticism to the regular world, as the philosopher accesses a truth that puts them at a distance from the human community, and they must learn if it is possible to spread that idea to the people, at risk to themselves.


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: CreonAntigone] * 1
    #28364137 - 06/18/23 08:24 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)

The mystical world hides itself, because the first several visionary exepriences deal with the clearing of emotional baggage and stabilizing your usually-neglected health. Think of it as a spaceship, which is prioritizing the guidance system and life support, ahead of exploration.


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Offlinesolarshroomster
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28364443 - 06/18/23 02:15 PM (7 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

CreonAntigone said:
Solar, have you ever read Plato's Republic?

It really goes deep into this issue of the ineffeability of the ultimate, and how people could be tasked to see it more easily. Socrates in the book designs an education system trained to get people attuned to see the Form of the Good, the one-ness that Plato sees as the source of all things, and something that always stays the same for all time.

But the book grapples with the challenge of conveying this ultimate, as one of Socrates' conversants asks him to describe what the Form of the Good is like, and he cannot. He says that one must learn to see it for themselves. It is a special kind of knowledge.

The idea of the cave is all about the relation of mysticism to the regular world, as the philosopher accesses a truth that puts them at a distance from the human community, and they must learn if it is possible to spread that idea to the people, at risk to themselves.




It was hard to go into anything with the semblance of spirituality when I was told, repeatedly, that it was bullshit in the end. Why bother reading anything, when you can preempt it all with "this is nonsense!" in advance?

To be honest, this understanding was so engrained in me, it's hard to STILL not feel like Plato's thoughts and Socrates book are nothing other than the musings of weak-minded hearts in need of a security blanket.

I'm really frustrated. I was totally lied to.

Do you understand that? I'm peeved out of my mind. They sold me a lie, put me into a state of near psychosis, and then spit in my face and tell me it's raining. And when I say "they spit in my face and tell me it's raining", I mean: they constantly gaslight, telling me I'm not experiencing what I very well know I'm experiencing. Do these people not have eyes to see the higher planes? How are they so missing it? And why do they go all missionary style preaching their gospel of atheism in ignorance to it all?


--------------------
Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


Edited by solarshroomster (06/18/23 02:16 PM)


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28364456 - 06/18/23 02:31 PM (7 months, 6 days ago)

The classical philosophers would have considered absolute atheism to be an example of hubris, having anthropomorphized all these forces of nature and human emotions, into marble busts and idols. The capitol buildings are actually made to resemble pagan temples. Civics is a religion.


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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28364491 - 06/18/23 03:22 PM (7 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
Do these people not have eyes to see the higher planes? How are they so missing it? And why do they go all missionary style preaching their gospel of atheism in ignorance to it all?




Nietzsche said god is dead, meaning that we no longer have true visionary experiences through religion.

So if you want communal religious experiences, you have to understand that it is a struggle today, and that we'll have to do something entirely new.

According to Nietzsche, god died and we didn't even directly know it, it took a while to feel the impact; churches are tombs to a dead ideal.


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OfflineEggtimer
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28364618 - 06/18/23 06:18 PM (7 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
Quote:

CreonAntigone said:
Solar, have you ever read Plato's Republic?

It really goes deep into this issue of the ineffeability of the ultimate, and how people could be tasked to see it more easily. Socrates in the book designs an education system trained to get people attuned to see the Form of the Good, the one-ness that Plato sees as the source of all things, and something that always stays the same for all time.

But the book grapples with the challenge of conveying this ultimate, as one of Socrates' conversants asks him to describe what the Form of the Good is like, and he cannot. He says that one must learn to see it for themselves. It is a special kind of knowledge.

The idea of the cave is all about the relation of mysticism to the regular world, as the philosopher accesses a truth that puts them at a distance from the human community, and they must learn if it is possible to spread that idea to the people, at risk to themselves.




It was hard to go into anything with the semblance of spirituality when I was told, repeatedly, that it was bullshit in the end. Why bother reading anything, when you can preempt it all with "this is nonsense!" in advance?

To be honest, this understanding was so engrained in me, it's hard to STILL not feel like Plato's thoughts and Socrates book are nothing other than the musings of weak-minded hearts in need of a security blanket.

I'm really frustrated. I was totally lied to.

Do you understand that? I'm peeved out of my mind. They sold me a lie, put me into a state of near psychosis, and then spit in my face and tell me it's raining. And when I say "they spit in my face and tell me it's raining", I mean: they constantly gaslight, telling me I'm not experiencing what I very well know I'm experiencing. Do these people not have eyes to see the higher planes? How are they so missing it? And why do they go all missionary style preaching their gospel of atheism in ignorance to it all?




Don't forget about polarity. For there to be knowledge there must also be ignorance. For us to have this experience as a self contained being we have to taste the illusion of separation and duality. To taste freedom and union there must first be the sense of bondage and separation.

Sometimes ponder time as not just a one way arrow but an arrow going both ways. For you to be where you are now you had to have went thru everything that you've went thru or you would be somewhere else. Point C is because point B was and point A was. Take away those and there's no arriving at point C. 
This is something that I struggle with but everything we experience is served with the greatest love. Every cell, every feeling, every thought, every perception of pain or pleasure, every being good/evil, microscopic or cosmic is the infinite coursing through the infinite.  If we always get only what we want there is no way to go beyond the limited because the desire never arises.

Here is a poem I like "Safe Passage Home"
Quote:

Once upon a time, a long long time ago,
                                  Before even
                  Grandfather Sky had given birth to the stars,
                          There was only One Being.
            One pure consciousness of love resting in the completeness
                Of its own untold Stories and mute Songs unsung.
              Then, one day, for reasons that no one remembers,
                          If in fact anyone ever knew,
                            The One became restless.
                  Some say it decided to play a cosmic game of
                      Hide and seek, splitting its Light into
              Tiny sparks, each with the full potential of the Whole.

              In this way the One could know itself and grow itself.
                So each spark was clothed in a costume of flesh
            And its Light and wisdom hidden deep within its heart.
            The challenge of the game was for all parts of the Whole
                    To discover their way back home again
                Having lived all the Stories and sung all the Songs
                That would make them wise and compassionate
                    Co-creators and companions to the One.

                  The fledgling souls took many roads Home.
                  Each Way had its own Story and each soul
                Responded to that Story with the gift of free will,
                Embroidering new stories on the dream-tapestry
                          Of the One Great Dreamer.

                        And the sun rose and the sun set.

                    The tides came in and the tides went out.

            New flesh was born and old flesh went back to the earth.

          And the One saw new stories grow in the Theater of the Many.
                    Some of these stories led closer to Home.
            These were the ones in which fear was conquered by love.
                  Some of these stories led down blind alleys.
              These were the ones in which love was hidden by fear.

                The plays were long and the distractions many.
                                  One by one
              Most souls forgot that they were on a journey at all.

                      They fell asleep to the First Stories
              That the One had left as eternal roadmaps and guides
                      So that each soul could find its way
                                  Back Home.

                  Believing that they were alone and separate
                  These lost souls wandered in a strange land
                Dominated by the illusion that death was real and
                    That love was as transitory as a shadow.

                  Some sought solace in money, others in power.
              Some found it in food or drugs or alcohol or anger or
                            Television or possessions,
                      Gossip or judgment or a jealous god
              Who whispered lies. You are special, you are saved,
                    There is only one way Home and this is it.

                  In its love and mercy for the lost parts of itself
                The One sent alarm bells out into the Universe
                  To wake its sparks from their dreams of fear
              And to guide them back into paths of love and longing
                  For reunion with the Great Cosmic Beloved.

            These wake-up calls of pain roused the souls from their
                            sleep of forgetfulness.
                  And their cries for help were heard by their
                  Brothers and sisters throughout the Universe.
                        Seen and unseen helpers came
                    Whenever they were drawn by the intent,
                            The powerful pull of will
                    Of any soul who appealed to the Source
              With a true longing for reunion, forgiveness and love.
                  And they helped those souls to become free
                    From the bondage of limiting beliefs and
                        Past unloving or ignorant actions

                            So that they could find a
                              Safe passage Home.

                      They will give you safe passage, too,
                              If you ask with faith,
                        Even the size of a mustard seed,
                    And if you are patient and willing to listen
                        To the directions of the Universe,
                                Even if they are
                        Not what you wanted to hear.

                          "Thy will, not mine, be done."
                          This is the understanding
                          That will bring you Home.




Another one of my favorite poems Please Call Me By My True Names
Quote:

Don’t say that I will depart tomorrow—
even today I am still arriving.

Look deeply: every second I am arriving
to be a bud on a Spring branch,
to be a tiny bird, with still-fragile wings,
learning to sing in my new nest,
to be a caterpillar in the heart of a flower,
to be a jewel hiding itself in a stone.

I still arrive, in order to laugh and to cry,
to fear and to hope.
The rhythm of my heart is the birth and death
of all that is alive.

I am a mayfly metamorphosing
on the surface of the river.
And I am the bird
that swoops down to swallow the mayfly.

I am a frog swimming happily
in the clear water of a pond.
And I am the grass-snake
that silently feeds itself on the frog.

I am the child in Uganda, all skin and bones,
my legs as thin as bamboo sticks.
And I am the arms merchant,
selling deadly weapons to Uganda.

I am the twelve-year-old girl,
refugee on a small boat,
who throws herself into the ocean
after being raped by a sea pirate.

And I am also the pirate,
my heart not yet capable
of seeing and loving.

I am a member of the politburo,
with plenty of power in my hands.
And I am the man who has to pay
his “debt of blood” to my people
dying slowly in a forced-labor camp.

My joy is like Spring, so warm
it makes flowers bloom all over the Earth.
My pain is like a river of tears,
so vast it fills the four oceans.

Please call me by my true names,
so I can hear all my cries and laughter at once,
so I can see that my joy and pain are one.

Please call me by my true names,
so I can wake up
and the door of my heart
could be left open,
the door of compassion.




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OfflineBeluga
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28382652 - 07/02/23 01:34 PM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Because you are here to have an experience in a physical world.  Limitation is an essential part of that goal.  I’ll give you some examples.  Say you are God, alone in the void, and want to experience innocent love.  You will have to differentiate into a limited avatar of young, inexperienced, hormonal youth, with no knowledge of biological sexual dynamics, sexual selection, ect.    To feel that experience fully, the longing, the magic, the ecstasy, the mysticism, and everything else that makes innocent young love what it is, you have to restrict your intellect to a certain level of ignorance.  Same thing if you want to experience what it is like to be a fish migrating through the sea, or a lion on the hunt.  To experience what that really means, your intellect, knowledge, and ability to think must be restricted to that of the lion or fish you want to experience.  After you die, you will expand back into God, and will be able to have all your questions answered, and all mysticism will be available to you, but it wont seem so mystical or magical anymore.  It will just be seen as what it is-the eternal mind that you are.  You will find that gets boring though, and you will need to create, differentiate, and experience again.  Like a character in a book, video game, or movie, you will have to have limitations to make the story work.  The mystical is a joy to experience or long for here.  It adds depth, wonder, joy, hope, and many other valuable things to our experience.  If we could experience it and understand it at will, it would cease to be mystical, and would soon become boring.  That’s why we cant.  Because we chose to be limited in that way so that we could have this avatar and this experience.


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OfflineXorgo
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: Beluga] * 1
    #28392359 - 07/11/23 11:31 AM (6 months, 14 days ago)

I think reality is fluid. It's always changing, depending who's looking at it


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Invisibleconnectedcosmos
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Posts: 7,426
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: Xorgo]
    #28392779 - 07/11/23 06:12 PM (6 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Xorgo said:
I think reality is fluid. It's always changing, depending who's looking at it




I've certainly noticed that everybodies perception is filtered and influenced through all the experiences that they've ever had collectively up to the point of perceiving in the moment

Very fluidy - think rorschach test


--------------------


54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?


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Offlinesolarshroomster
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #28393213 - 07/12/23 07:32 AM (6 months, 14 days ago)

All of these are good replies. I think I'm just Doubting Thomas.

In fact, connectedcosmos' note says it all:

54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?


--------------------
Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


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Invisibleconnectedcosmos
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28393505 - 07/12/23 12:44 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

I can try to explain the moon to you in many different ways yet you still will not know what it actually looks like until you see it yourself , in a way I see this at my job while training people to run a machine, you could explain it for 8 hours but they are not going to learn until they do it themselves , muscle memory etc,

And that's kinda knowledge , I think of Gnosis or Vidya which is knowing and if one can know intuitively based off philosophy,  look around does anything come from nothing? So simply put if ones discernment is true you can find the Source, God , Dao, Brahman 
Whatever name you want to give it :heart:


--------------------


54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?


Edited by connectedcosmos (07/12/23 12:53 PM)


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28393528 - 07/12/23 01:18 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
I think I'm just Doubting Thomas




There is a mutual rapport, built between both sides.


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Offlinesolarshroomster
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #28393723 - 07/12/23 05:24 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

connectedcosmos said:
I can try to explain the moon to you in many different ways yet you still will not know what it actually looks like until you see it yourself:




Excellent example. I think that's precisely what's going on with doubters of the mystical dimension. You've either seen, or you haven't. It's understandable that if you haven't seen the moon, how are you expected to report back that there even is the moon? And, it's stranger still, for even if you have seen the moon, if there's nothing tangible to relate your experience back to (as is the case in mystical experience), you won't be able to even "describe" it.

You're blowing my mind!!!! Am I the only one who finds this incredible?!!!!

You're talking about the ineffable!!!!! Just a year ago, I thought this stuff was BS.


--------------------
Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


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Invisibleconnectedcosmos
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28393747 - 07/12/23 05:40 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

That verse is from the vivekachudamani primarily attributed to Shankaracharya as the composer iirc , so I take no credit for it , I think it's a beautiful metaphor though :awesomenod: meant a lot to me so I stuck it in the sig :awehigh:

The sage can point you the way but in the end its your own discernment


--------------------


54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?


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OfflineBeluga
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: CreonAntigone] * 2
    #28394797 - 07/13/23 09:31 PM (6 months, 12 days ago)

The knowledge is hidden for a reason.  If a dog knew the secrets of the universe, he would not be a dog.  He would not be able to enjoy the pure feelings of joy and pain that a dog experiences.  Same for most people.  The limitations they have, intellectual and otherwise, were mostly chosen by them/us/God prior to coming here in order to have that particular experience as a regular person.  This is why Plato and Socrates and their peers ultimately concluded what all enlightened people have concluded throughout history.  It is useless to cast pearls before swine.  They will react violently at the attempt to have their small views altered, and will attack the messenger.  This is because they really dont want that knowledge.  It would mess up what they are here to experience.


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Offlinesolarshroomster
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: Beluga]
    #28394824 - 07/13/23 09:48 PM (6 months, 12 days ago)

Thank you.. Beluga!!


--------------------
Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


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Offlinesolarshroomster
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28394827 - 07/13/23 09:50 PM (6 months, 12 days ago)

Okay, now I'm understanding. I just didn't think the world worked like that before...


--------------------
Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28395515 - 07/14/23 03:23 PM (6 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

...and will attack the messenger.




:awesomenod:


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