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nektar61



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Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate 7
#28350008 - 06/06/23 07:11 PM (11 months, 6 days ago) |
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I know this is suggested here often for decades, but I actually did it, with clones, and with a control: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28349910
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sindromededow
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61] 1
#28358588 - 06/13/23 03:26 PM (10 months, 30 days ago) |
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Friend, I have been reading about the topic, but it's not clear to me since English is not my native language, and I am somewhat confused. Have you achieved anything positive by using tryptophan or melatonin in your substrates?
thanks!
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nektar61



Registered: 07/04/20
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: sindromededow] 1
#28359111 - 06/14/23 12:10 AM (10 months, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
sindromededow said: Friend, I have been reading about the topic, but it's not clear to me since English is not my native language, and I am somewhat confused. Have you achieved anything positive by using tryptophan or melatonin in your substrates?
thanks!
I achieved nothing by using tryptophan or melatonin in my substrates. No gain in potency.
I'm inviting other people to repeat the experiment, but if you're looking to grow better shrooms, just learn to clone and clone ones that work well, because melatonin or tryptophan added to substrate didn't do anything noticeable.
To learn to clone, on this post: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=27646632&page=0&vc=1#27646632
read the links marked: --Learn sterile techniques.
--Learn to transfer away from contams (contaminations) on agar.
--Learn to clone.
Edited by nektar61 (06/15/23 10:00 PM)
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argenpills
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61]
#28359336 - 06/14/23 08:54 AM (10 months, 29 days ago) |
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I will gladly replicate it to see if anything happens "by eye." But the reality is that this experiment from the beginning is destined to have no results, and let me explain why...
It would be good to carry out this experiment involving more people who are interested and knowledgeable or capable of conducting a chromatographic analysis of the control strain that we will be exposing to tryptophan. Initially, it would be good to have a control strain where we only administer one type of grain, perhaps oats... After a few weeks or months, when it bears fruit, we would have to dissect them at a constant temperature that does not exceed 50 degrees and micronize them to make a powder of that control strain. Then we would have to conduct a chromatographic analysis to determine the presence of tryptamines in that strain with that grain. Once we have the report on what that strain can metabolize with that type of grain we provided for nourishment, we will have an average value of what we can obtain with just the grain. Then we would have to repeat the entire procedure, but this time adding tryptophan.
It is a lengthy process that can take months or years. The only way to verify it is with scientific data because you won't notice anything at first glance.
To determine the potency of your psilocybin mushroom bread, you would need to harvest them, dissect them, micronize them, and perform chromatographic analysis in a laboratory or with people who are interested in these topics and dedicated to field research (there should be many qualified individuals).
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nektar61



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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: argenpills] 1
#28359654 - 06/14/23 02:01 PM (10 months, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
argenpills said: I will gladly replicate it to see if anything happens "by eye." But the reality is that this experiment from the beginning is destined to have no results, and let me explain why...
It would be good to carry out this experiment involving more people who are interested and knowledgeable or capable of conducting a chromatographic analysis of the control strain that we will be exposing to tryptophan. Initially, it would be good to have a control strain where we only administer one type of grain, perhaps oats... After a few weeks or months, when it bears fruit, we would have to dissect them at a constant temperature that does not exceed 50 degrees and micronize them to make a powder of that control strain. Then we would have to conduct a chromatographic analysis to determine the presence of tryptamines in that strain with that grain. Once we have the report on what that strain can metabolize with that type of grain we provided for nourishment, we will have an average value of what we can obtain with just the grain. Then we would have to repeat the entire procedure, but this time adding tryptophan.
It is a lengthy process that can take months or years. The only way to verify it is with scientific data because you won't notice anything at first glance.
To determine the potency of your psilocybin mushroom bread, you would need to harvest them, dissect them, micronize them, and perform chromatographic analysis in a laboratory or with people who are interested in these topics and dedicated to field research (there should be many qualified individuals).
Obviously.
And I mention this in my report (did you read it?) and mention that I've saved vacuum packed shroom results and chemicals in case anyone with a real lab wants to analyze it. And that I invite others to replicate the experiment.
Only people I know of with a lab that can do real quantitative is Oakland people that do Psilo Cup, last year they told me that this year I could enter, and now they're not returning emails.
There are commercial labs in the US where you can pay to anonymously get something analyzed, but it's illegal in the US for a lab to tell someone how much of a substance is in a sample (would be too helpful to "druggies"), they can only tell you what substances are in your sample.
If there was a commercial lab in the US that did quantitative anon results and didn't cost an arm and a leg, I'd have done it.
As much as my experiment was lacking, I've never seen anyone here do a "try this to see if that" even as controlled as I did. That's part of why I did it. Alan does real science. He and others are even finding and ID new active species.
But I haven't seen anyone "try a this vs that" real experiment using a CLONE and a CONTROL group.
People do great work with stabilizing varieties, but not that's not really an experiment, it's not scientific method.
There is a lot on this website where people say they did an "experiment" but don't even come close to the bare minimum I did. I'm not majestic, I'm just pointing out no one really does an actual experiment here.
It's usually "I grew some multispore shrooms and added oxygen from a welding tank, and they're bigger than the last batch I grew without oxygen", so EXPERIMENT SUCCESSFUL. Mission Accomplished! SCIENCE, BITCHES!
If I'm wrong and someone here has done this, please post the link, I'd love to see some, and I can't read this whole website every day.
Welcome.
Edited by nektar61 (06/15/23 03:44 AM)
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argenpills
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61]
#28360950 - 06/15/23 02:06 PM (10 months, 28 days ago) |
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Friend, I've been researching and reading on the forum, and it seems like things are quite clear. While there aren't very specialized studies showing evidence with photos and chromatographic exams, in this article, you'll find quite a few answers.
Many of these experiments are conducted at "Oakland Hyphae" where they perform chromatographic exams on all participating strains. We should get in touch with those people to conduct tests like the ones mentioned above.
There are many scientists who do good science, but I believe that they, knowing the truth and holding the key to that knowledge, don't engage in debates on these topics. They simply do their thing. It could be everyone's secret.
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argenpills
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61]
#28360973 - 06/15/23 02:15 PM (10 months, 28 days ago) |
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nektar61



Registered: 07/04/20
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: argenpills] 1
#28361334 - 06/15/23 06:27 PM (10 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
argenpills said: Many of these experiments are conducted at "Oakland Hyphae" where they perform chromatographic exams on all participating strains. We should get in touch with those people to conduct tests like the ones mentioned above.
You're posting things and asking questions here. I'm replying in detail, but I think you're not reading my replies, or not reading them very carefully.
That is weird, because it looks like you made an account on Shroomery just to comment on this thread (did you see it on Reddit?). You made your account yesterday, and have only posted on this thread. I don't mind if you did come here just for this, not at all, but if you're going to ask me questions and I answer in detail, please read my replies to your questions carefully before asking more questions I've already answered.
For instance, I replied to you in a post above, before you asked about Oakland Hyphae:
"Only people I know of with a lab that can do real quantitative is Oakland people that do Psilo Cup, last year they told me that this year I could enter, and now they're not returning emails."
Maybe you read that but don't know that Oakland Hyphae runs the Psilo cup. Even if you didn't know that, I also wrote above before your follow up:
"There are commercial labs in the US where you can pay to anonymously get something analyzed, but it's illegal in the US for a lab to tell someone how much of a substance is in a sample (would be too helpful to "druggies"), they can only tell you what substances are in your sample."
"If there was a commercial lab in the US that did quantitative anon results and didn't cost an arm and a leg, I'd have done it."
The two people I have talked with at Hyphae Labs are not responding to my emails, and this email that used to be the Psilo Cup email is now bouncing: psilocybincup@hyphaelabs.org
Also, Did you even carefully read the experiment thread linked in the first post? I'm not sure you did, based on some of your replies here.
HOWEVER: I do think my tests, even using self bio-assay instead of a lab, has strongly indicated (if not proven) one important thing: if there is any additional psychedelic substance produced by adding either of these substances to a grow, it's not substantial.
So this experiment went a long way to debunk the many noobs who've asked here, Reddit, and elsewhere something like "I have an idea for an experiment someone should do. Someone should add Melatonin, or Tryptophan to shroom substrate. It might make stronger shrooms."
It does not make shrooms significantly stronger. If it did I would have tripped hard of a gram. I did not trip hard off a gram.
I invite anyone to duplicate this experiment, USING A CLONE ONLY, and having a control group, and doing it more than once as I did, and see if any of them make you trip hard off a gram, or trip much harder off the same amount.
THAT is science. Even without a lab.
I've seen that so many times.
Edited by nektar61 (06/15/23 07:06 PM)
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argenpills
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61] 1
#28361891 - 06/16/23 09:24 AM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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Regarding my account on this forum: I created my account specifically to comment on your thread. I'm from Argentina and I have been researching psychedelics for over 15 years (more focused on the synthetic side, particularly MDxx). It seems like not many people care about your thread, but it caught my attention, which is why I'm here, my friend.
I read through the thread, but I didn't quite understand your original post about the conclusions you had reached. English is not my native language, as I mentioned before. However, you explained your results in a simpler way here.
I am also conducting experiments on this subject, and I am confident that the questions that you and I have today already have answers. Someone has already conducted these experiments and knows well what happens. The thing is, those people are not hanging around internet forums, enlightening newcomers who want to play "Breaking Bad" with biological organisms (although it would be good if it happened, LOL).
Predicting what a biological organism will do is very difficult. We have to consider the starting point, such as starting with spores and how long ago those spores were taken from the mushrooms. If we start with agar on a plate or in a liquid culture, we have to make sure the mycelium is not "old" (mycelium ages and loses potency), so we need to regularly sexualize it with spores and allow it to create diploid mycelium.
The link I shared with you resolved many of these doubts for me but raised new ones that go beyond my current capacity for study. I don't think any of these guys here will join our conversation and explain to us how we can make our mushrooms better in a cheap way with a simple element...
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Yahra
Meow


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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: argenpills] 4
#28362195 - 06/16/23 02:28 PM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
explain to us how we can make our mushrooms better in a cheap way with a simple element
Mushrooms don't need to be made better. They are perfect as they are.
Plain, pure nature. No need to mess around with it.
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nektar61



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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: argenpills] 2
#28362212 - 06/16/23 02:45 PM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
argenpills said: Predicting what a biological organism will do is very difficult.
Agreed. Which is why I think that the lab standard pre-human trial technique of head-twitch response (HTR) using mice is a horrible indication of if a drug is psychedelic, or of how much, or in what way.
Sasha Shulgin believed this strongly, even though he'd cut his research teeth working for a large pharmaceutical company that did things like that. Sasha and his wife tested new drugs they created on themselves and on willing friends. His published one-short paragraph assessments of x amount of mg of each new substance say more than 20 pages of mouse results could.
Quote:
argenpills said: We have to consider the starting point, such as starting with spores and how long ago those spores were taken from the mushrooms. If we start with agar on a plate or in a liquid culture, we have to make sure the mycelium is not "old" (mycelium ages and loses potency)...
My shroom tests were grown the same way I grow all my shrooms, and I grow constantly. I grow much more than I ingest. I've grown so many that I'm tired of eating them. Other than these recent tests, I mostly just grow them.
These shrooms were grown from fresh spores I collected from previous grows, then put on agar, allowed it to sit about six weeks until it pinned on agar. I made a clone from a plin (plate pin, often the first one is a good candidate for a strong robust clone culture), and used T1 from agar of that to grow these shrooms. There was no senescence here.
They were grown on the same shelf next to each other. Kept at 70 degrees F. Given 6500 k light 12 hours a day once pins showed. Misted as needed.
I didn't explain that in my report because I'd been explaining it all in the forums here as I went along. Didn't include it because I wanted my report to be short enough for laymen to actually read it.
There was no difference in growing, except the two with additions of chemicals took a 3 to 5 days longer to pin. I explained that in my report. I'll link this post in my report, since it offers more information.
I didn't weigh yields, which was a mistake, but doesn't invalidate my experiment. I provided photos of each shoebox grow, they were similar. Dried weight would have been within 5 to 10 percent the same, as would be would be with any clone shoebox grow I grow.
I picked the shrooms once they opened, and dried the shrooms in a dehydrator at 180 F for 24 hours. This doesn't diminish the potency at all. I vacuum sealed the shrooms immediately after trying so there would be no degradation of potency until the up to 6 weeks later that I ingested them. Here's a link to more info on my drying and vacuum tek.
Quote:
argenpills said: The link I shared with you resolved many of these doubts for me but raised new ones that go beyond my current capacity for study. I don't think any of these guys here will join our conversation and explain to us how we can make our mushrooms better in a cheap way with a simple element...
I think Yahra's comment just above this is accurate; "Mushrooms don't need to be made better. They are perfect as they are."
Not sure I agree with the second part "Plain, pure nature. No need to mess around with it.", but I do in the sense of chemical additions, and my experiment was just to see if the suggestions from many noobs who've never grown a shroom of adding these substances had any merit. I'm convinced these two substances as grow additions have no merit.
We do "mess with it" around here, in the form of coming up with and selecting new varieties of mushrooms, usually cubes (Psilocybe cubensis). If hundreds of people hand't "messed around with it over the past 25 years (Shroomery is one of the longest-running sites on the Internet), there would be only one variety of magic mushroom, it wouldn't be very strong, and you'd have to go out into a cow pasture after a rain and risk getting caught or even shot to pick it.
I did that myself several times, near San Antonio Texasin 1985, didn't get shot, but did get caught and chased once. Other people I know had warning shots from shotguns blasted over their heads once.
Members of the Shroomery community do a lot of work with improving shrooms by selection, and risk prison to do it. Most popular "strains" (actually varieties is more accurate) of Psilocybe cubensis mushrooms were selected, named, and disseminated from this site. People here are the forefront of it.
I'm working on selecting for an improved, taller, stronger sub-variety of x7x cubes right now. That's a variety that was created by a member here who is in, interestingly for you, Argentina.
But I'm standing on the shoulders of giants, of citizen scientist / gardeners who are obsessed with this stuff.
I appreciate you replying and explaining your position. I hope you stick around and I will read that link you sent.
Katrina
Edited by nektar61 (06/16/23 03:02 PM)
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x7x_x7x
x7x, my problem child.




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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: argenpills] 3
#28370482 - 06/22/23 05:42 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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man, meet your business.
all we know the foundations of scientific research and our attitude is light years the conception of reality and science the common people have. all we heard thousands of times speechs like yours, you point of view isn't new here and isn't new in every place were true research are doing. here, nobody have time to lost trying to please the standard establishment in psychological research. if you feel unconfortable here, leave this site peacefully. no one will go after you or question anything. This is simply not your place.
Quote:
argenpills said: I will gladly replicate it to see if anything happens "by eye." But the reality is that this experiment from the beginning is destined to have no results, and let me explain why...
It would be good to carry out this experiment involving more people who are interested and knowledgeable or capable of conducting a chromatographic analysis of the control strain that we will be exposing to tryptophan. Initially, it would be good to have a control strain where we only administer one type of grain, perhaps oats... After a few weeks or months, when it bears fruit, we would have to dissect them at a constant temperature that does not exceed 50 degrees and micronize them to make a powder of that control strain. Then we would have to conduct a chromatographic analysis to determine the presence of tryptamines in that strain with that grain. Once we have the report on what that strain can metabolize with that type of grain we provided for nourishment, we will have an average value of what we can obtain with just the grain. Then we would have to repeat the entire procedure, but this time adding tryptophan.
It is a lengthy process that can take months or years. The only way to verify it is with scientific data because you won't notice anything at first glance.
To determine the potency of your psilocybin mushroom bread, you would need to harvest them, dissect them, micronize them, and perform chromatographic analysis in a laboratory or with people who are interested in these topics and dedicated to field research (there should be many qualified individuals).
-------------------- cultivando en la miseria SuctoSpore® Pictorial Tek
 x7x_x7x@shroomery.org carl_jung_in_lsd@yahoo.com koh samui and oak ridge are my favourite strains
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argenpills
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: x7x_x7x]
#28373045 - 06/24/23 04:38 PM (10 months, 19 days ago) |
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Brother... what the hell are you talking about? You wrote so much shit to contribute absolutely NOTHING to the conversation we were having with another user. If my comment hurt your LGBT feelings, I couldn't care less.
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djbabyjesus


Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 341
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61] 2
#28490553 - 10/03/23 03:03 AM (7 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
HOWEVER: I do think my tests, even using self bio-assay instead of a lab, has strongly indicated (if not proven) one important thing: if there is any additional psychedelic substance produced by adding either of these substances to a grow, it's not substantial.
So this experiment went a long way to debunk the many noobs who've asked here, Reddit, and elsewhere something like "I have an idea for an experiment someone should do. Someone should add Melatonin, or Tryptophan to shroom substrate. It might make stronger shrooms."
It does not make shrooms significantly stronger. If it did I would have tripped hard of a gram. I did not trip hard off a gram.
I invite anyone to duplicate this experiment, USING A CLONE ONLY, and having a control group, and doing it more than once as I did, and see if any of them make you trip hard off a gram, or trip much harder off the same amount.
Hey 👋🏼, I think u need to dig a little deeper into how adding precursors to substrates works….
First of all, tryptophan and melatonin wouldn’t be what you would use to increase psilocybin content in the actual mushroom. The mushroom only uptakes the molecule it usually makes. Otherwise you will have to extract from the mycelium/substrate. So of course you didn’t notice any difference in effects.
If you want to increase indole content in cubensis, you would have needed to use tryptamine or dimethyltryptamine as a precursor. Something that will become 4HODMT with the simple addition of a Hydroxyl group at the four position. Then you will see results.
You could possibly use bacillus subtillus as it is rumored to increase psilocybin content due to additional enzymes. That hasn’t been proven, it just my educated guess and something I’ve been working on. May only increase psilocybin and not overall indole content. (It has additional kinase enzymes that aid in adding phosphate groups crucial to psilocybin production.)
Gartz showed that adding DET to the substrate produced 4-HO-DET and 4PODET. However a lot of people read this and mistakenly confuse the two ideas. You can make novel psychedelics in the MYCELIUM of the mushroom but you won’t make a mushroom with novel psychedelics. You can increase the psilocybin content by adding the right precursors.
The melatonin would have created something like 4,5-Methoxy-N-acetyltryptamine.
The tryptophan would have made 2-Amino-3-4-hydroxy(1H-indol-3-yl)propanoic acid.(not sure how to write the exact name smh)
Have either of those have been shown to be active? Either way, in both cases the products would be found in the substrate.
Science.
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djbabyjesus


Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 341
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: argenpills]
#28490577 - 10/03/23 04:35 AM (7 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
The link I shared with you resolved many of these doubts for me but raised new ones that go beyond my current capacity for study. I don't think any of these guys here will join our conversation and explain to us how we can make our mushrooms better in a cheap way with a simple element
I just did 
I’ll post a thread with pic/sourced info on this topic soon but here’s a few recipes for anyone interested to try out….
Aside from the above mentioned methods for increasing psilocybin production, the Gartz method suggests it is possible to make a whole range of novel “Super Psychedelics”. From substituted tryptamines, phenethlyamines, amphetamines and beta-carbolines
One important thing to consider is which type of mushroom you are using and how many of which particular enzymes it produces.
Simply put, the PsiH enzyme is the one you want to be most aware of. So far, psilocybe mushrooms have been found to have either 1,2 or three copies of the PsiH enzyme. This adds either 1,2 or 3 hydroxyl groups to your chosen precursor. Generally speaking cubensis have 1 copy of the PsiH enzyme. this adds one HO. Woodlovers generally have either 2 or 3 copies of PsiH and thus have the ability to add 2 and 3 hydroxyl groups.
Note: you will also get a phosphate group added to each hydroxyl group by the PsiK enzyme or bacillus subtillus if using the “Ghost in a Jar” method for making kykeon (yeast, lacto bac, bac Subillus, grapes or other precursor like ergot/barley).
For example: if you started with methamphethamine, you would get 4-MA. 3,4-MA and 3,4,5-MA.
If you used 3,4-MDMA, you would get 3,4,5-MDMA. Very similar to TMA and Mescaline
You could start with a lot of precursors from the phenethlyamine/dopamine path way.
L-dopa, only needs one additional HO to become similar TMA.
Starting with MG Seeds should render hydroxylated form of LSI, LSA, LSH and LSD depending on lysergic source.
Starting with 5HT will yield 4,5-HO-DMT when added to cubensis. This is one is the Goldie locks of the tryptamines. It’s found in wood lovers cyan/azures/P.subs and is created via the additional(2) PsiH enzymes. (no source just alot of research with supporting evidence atm but I am waiting on testing this year)
You should be able to get a double yield of done right. One from the mushrooms and one from the cake.
There are probably hundreds of different compounds you could create with this method.
Note: when u create a tryptamine with three HO groups AND phosphate groups, it becomes a neurotoxin and can cause paralysis. Possibly true for other compounds as well so keep that in mind. In these cases you need to remove the phosphate groups before ingestion. (Look up removing phosphate groups, decontamination of agricultural run off and acetylcholinesterase inhibitor based chemical weapons). Simply put, soak in acid over night and/or boil for 15-20mins. Or expose to high or low PH conditions.
Edited by djbabyjesus (10/03/23 05:24 AM)
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djbabyjesus


Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 341
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61]
#28491084 - 10/03/23 03:10 PM (7 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
”the two people I have talked with at Hyphae Labs are not responding to my emails, and this email that used to be the Psilo Cup email is now bouncing: psilocybincup@hyphaelabs.org
Also, Did you even carefully read the experiment thread linked in the first post? I'm not sure you did, based on some of your replies here.
HOWEVER: I do think my tests, even using self bio-assay instead of a lab, has strongly indicated (if not proven) one important thing: if there is any additional psychedelic substance produced by adding either of these substances to a grow, it's not substantial.
So this experiment went a long way to debunk the many noobs who've asked here, Reddit, and elsewhere something like "I have an idea for an experiment someone should do. Someone should add Melatonin, or Tryptophan to shroom substrate. It might make stronger shrooms”
Nektar, I am curious, you seem intelligent, well educated and experienced growing mushrooms.
Why would you do this particular experiment when there is absolutely no evidence adding tryptophan or melatonin would increase psilocybin potency?
Anyone with access to google could have easily deducted other precursors were more fitting.
When smart people start acting like they had no idea what was going on it looks suspicious.
Reasonable suspicion isn’t enough for probable cause for investigation. However when they start adding up it can trigger those flashing lights.
You’re obviously intelligent, but maybe you just didn’t research this one as much as you should have and totally missed readily available information …ok move along….nothing to see here people….
Wait, did you say you were at one point in contact with the group at the center of an on going investigation concerning results in psilocybin competitions? Hold up, ima need to see some ID.
I gotta ask…
Have you been posting this information on any other site than the shroomery?
*shines flash light in back of vehicle*
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nektar61



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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61]
#28495195 - 10/07/23 07:36 AM (7 months, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
djbabyjesus said:
Nektar, I am curious, you seem intelligent, well educated and experienced growing mushrooms.
Why would you do this particular experiment when there is absolutely no evidence adding tryptophan or melatonin would increase psilocybin potency?
.....You’re obviously intelligent, but maybe you just didn’t research this one as much as you should have and totally missed readily available information …ok move along….nothing to see here people….
Wait, did you say you were at one point in contact with the group at the center of an on going investigation concerning results in psilocybin competitions? Hold up, ima need to see some ID.
I gotta ask…
Have you been posting this information on any other site than the shroomery?
*shines flash light in back of vehicle*
djbabyjesus: What's this weird cop shit you're saying? I'm guessing a joke but I don't get it.
Pretending to be a cop anywhere, but especially on this forum, is fucking creepy.
The other part you said about me sounds insulting. It comes off as you saying to me "You're smart so why are you being dumb?"
I did this test more than anything to hopefully see if I could prove that it would NOT work because people have said they thought it would work. It's obvious, again, that you did not read my whole post about it. My thesis was that it would not work, though was open to testing, and my thesis was found to be correct.
Why does anyone do any of the dozens of "experiments" people post here each week. Curiosity.
As for your "Wait, did you say you were at one point in contact with the group at the center of an on going investigation concerning results in psilocybin competitions?"
The answer is: I don't even know what you're talking about. I think you're confusing me with someone else.
I haven't heard of an "on going investigation concerning results in psilocybin competitions."
Do you have a link? Or is this more cop jokes from you?
I have emailed the Psilo Cup people a year before that email link bounced, and did email their main address from the website since, and after I wrote here about it bouncing.
But when they started asking me for money in the form of gift cards, I gave up on them. And it was them, not an unrelated scammer pretending to be them, according to someone I trust who knows them.
Edited by nektar61 (10/07/23 08:25 AM)
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djbabyjesus


Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 341
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61]
#28495614 - 10/07/23 03:59 PM (7 months, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
nektar61 said:
djbabyjesus: What's this weird cop shit you're saying? I'm guessing a joke but I don't get it.
Pretending to be a cop anywhere, but especially on this forum, is fucking creepy.
It’s an allegory….
“a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one.”
The cops, uses state of the art lie detection techniques derived from some of the smartest people in the field of psychology.
Often, when people get caught, they try to discredit the person asking the questions. Kinda like when you tried to make me out to be a creep for calling you a liar. Which I am calling u a liar. Strait up. Oh did I offend you by calling you on your BS? Sorry not sorry. Quote:
The other part you said about me sounds insulting. It comes off as you saying to me "You're smart so why are you being dumb?"
If the shoe fits.
Quote:
I did this test more than anything to hopefully see if I could prove that it would NOT work because people have said they thought it would work. It's obvious, again, that you did not read my whole post about it. My thesis was that it would not work, though was open to testing, and my thesis was found to be correct.
Why didn’t you choose and experiment that would work?
I could have told you, throwing shit in a pot doesn’t make diamonds. It’s just dumb unnecessary science. Why would you do that? What a waste. Don’t you think it would make more sense to do something that could provide meaningful results?
Everybody already knows melatonin plus mushrooms doesn’t make you mushrooms stronger. There is ZERO evidence to point that this is true. So why do it? You simply didn’t prove something that has already been proven. It’s pointless.
That’s why I wonder, why does someone that comes off as intelligent, do such an asinine experiment when so many others would have provided ground breaking results. It looks like you didn’t even try. So either A you were just completely ignorant to the current state of affairs in the community, or B you are miss leading us on purpose.
I don’t say this to be mean or offensive but sometimes the truth does sting a little.
Quote:
Why does anyone do any of the dozens of "experiments" people post here each week. Curiosity.
You didn’t do dozens, you did one very questionable red herring of an experiment. Then dipped from the site only to return when called out.
I’m willing to bet, you did this on other sites as well as a type of miss information campaign. Something the smartest people in this community are suspected to be involved in. It’s a type of false flag operation. Meant to cover up the inconvenient truth that precursors can be added to substrates yielding positive results and even novel psychedelic drugs.
Quote:
The answer is: I don't even know what you're talking about. I think you're confusing me with someone else.
Then u said:
Quote:
I have emailed the Psilo Cup people a year before that email link bounced, and did email their main address from the website since, and after I wrote here about it bouncing.
But when they started asking me for money in the form of gift cards, I gave up on them. And it was them, not an unrelated scammer pretending to be them, according to someone I trust who knows them.
So you were at one point in contact with them. So no, I’m not confusing you with someone else. The more I talk to you nektar, the more deception is coming to light. Your story doesn’t check out. Especially when one of the key phrases liars use is “I don’t know what you’re talking about”. It lie detection 101 lol.
Quote:
I haven't heard of an "on going investigation concerning results in psilocybin competitions."
Do you have a link? Or is this more cop jokes from you?
Are you blind? We’re doing one right here and now 😂
And for the record I ain’t no cop. I’m the guy the cops are afraid of. When they step to me they take two steps back. True story. I have thick cauliflower ears and I am highly trained in the art of lie detection/interrogation. I am here to take the street cred back from those whom attained it though dishonest means.
Anyone that has been involved in dishonest misinformation surrounding psilocybin cups is in the hot seat right now. I promise, it’s only gonna get hotter with djbabyjesus around. It’s what I do 🔥
There are many people that are questioning the validity of the psilocybin cups and the 3% results as they have not been duplicated by an out side 3rd party.
It pretty cut and dry. There is some info that didn’t make sense. There seems to be people online, swaying the information in a dishonest manner. I find your actions on this site suspicious ok? Is that a crime?
Edited by djbabyjesus (10/07/23 04:00 PM)
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djbabyjesus


Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 341
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61]
#28495621 - 10/07/23 04:18 PM (7 months, 7 days ago) |
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I’m gonna ask you again since you avoided the question (another tell tell sign of deception lol)
Have you been posting this information on any other site than the shroomery?
*shines flash light into your eyeholes*
Idk, I thought the cop jokes were kinda clever and humorous…sorry to ‘creep you out’ or what ever lol
I felt it was an appropriate analogy to the situation. Even if you are infact being totally honest, there are people on here that aren’t. It just so happens to be revolving around the very topic you posted about. If it was an honest mistake on your part, then I apologize, it was an honest mistake on my part and you are free to go.
Maybe do another experiment to regain your street cred? I’d support that.
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nektar61



Registered: 07/04/20
Posts: 3,299
Loc: Cube Satellite
Last seen: 12 hours, 17 minutes
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61]
#28495728 - 10/07/23 06:20 PM (7 months, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
djbabyjesus said: I’m gonna ask you again since you avoided the question (another tell tell sign of deception lol)
Have you been posting this information on any other site than the shroomery?
*shines flash light into your eyeholes*....Maybe do another experiment to regain your street cred? I’d support that.
The interaction with psilo cup I mentioned, where they asked for money, happened after I posted here that their email was bouncing. I wasn't hiding anything with the first post.
I had a friend post a link on Reddit to my main thread here on Shroomery about the experiment. But I haven't posted that link or a link to this thread anywhere, and I haven't posted about the topic of my experiment anywhere else, ever.
You trying to figure out my other social media accounts by asking where I'm posting makes me think you ARE a cop. You're also asking who I'm emailing. Cops do that.
You're accusing me of deception where there is none. Cops do that, to get suspects emotional, so they'll talk more and say something they wouldn't otherwise.
And you're making tacit threats to me.
Even if you're not a cop, I don't know where this overt cop-like anger and endless obsession at me is coming from. You're accusing me of all sorts of things I didn't do, and demanding I do things because you tell me to, for "street cred", which sounds like cop talk to me.
Cops try to push people to commit crimes. Is that what you're doing?
I have no idea what's wrong with you. If you're not a cop, maybe you hate women?
This is bad touch, officer. I'm putting you on ignore here,
Edited by nektar61 (10/08/23 12:03 AM)
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Smellyhobbit
Actual Retard



Registered: 04/01/22
Posts: 12,840
Loc: Hole
Last seen: 17 minutes, 14 seconds
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: djbabyjesus] 3
#28495757 - 10/07/23 06:45 PM (7 months, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
djbabyjesus said: I’m gonna ask you again since you avoided the question (another tell tell sign of deception lol)
Have you been posting this information on any other site than the shroomery?
*shines flash light into your eyeholes*
Idk, I thought the cop jokes were kinda clever and humorous…sorry to ‘creep you out’ or what ever lol
I felt it was an appropriate analogy to the situation. Even if you are infact being totally honest, there are people on here that aren’t. It just so happens to be revolving around the very topic you posted about. If it was an honest mistake on your part, then I apologize, it was an honest mistake on my part and you are free to go.
Maybe do another experiment to regain your street cred? I’d support that.
Hey bro this cop talk needs to chill the fuck out. People really don’t take kindly to those types of accusations and insinuations. Wouldn’t be surprised if your account gets put on ice if you don’t watch your language.
-------------------- A Love Letter to New Growers A Guide for New Growers Need Spores? - Sablabs.org Just because your tub contamed, doesn’t mean your attitude has to contam as well.

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djbabyjesus


Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 341
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61]
#28496024 - 10/07/23 11:22 PM (7 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
Often, when people get caught, they try to discredit the person asking the questions. Kinda like when you tried to make me out to be a creep for calling you a liar.
Now you use the same tactics to try and discredit me by accusing djbabyjesus of all people of being a cop? That’s rich. I’m literally a guy that picks mushrooms and obviously eats them constantly. You think djbabyjesus is a ‘cop on shrooms’ 😂
Nektar, if someone wanted to find out who all of your social media accounts are, all they would have to do is take a sample of your emotional writing…. Plug that into AI with a special ad on and have it search the internet for matches. So If your worried about people finding out who u are then simply stop posting on the internet on more than one site. Simple as that. The shroomery is the only place I put my words or leave a signature of my writing. There is no cross site tracking for djbabyjesus.
I was just asking if you have been spreading this info on other sites? That’s all. Asking questions and giving you my honest opinion. No anger, just a lot of people calling shenanigans.
Good bye nektar
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djbabyjesus


Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 341
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: Smellyhobbit]
#28496050 - 10/08/23 12:08 AM (7 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
Hey bro this cop talk needs to chill the fuck out. People really don’t take kindly to those types of accusations and insinuations. Wouldn’t be surprised if your account gets put on ice if you don’t watch your language
For what? Exactly what did I say?
What types of accusations and insinuations are you referring to?
I think it’s fair to question the validity of the cup results and anyone involved. Nectar has connections to the people in the cup. She said it herself.
Then she posts a very suspicious experiment, which was then reposted on Reddit (as I suspected…weird) When I questioned her with a little tongue-in-cheek joke she just started attacking me personally instead of scientifically and logically. She equated my logical arguments with anger in an effort to discredit the validity of my findings. The she accused me of hating women? Wtf? Where does that come from?
Seriously….did she really play the woman card!?
If anyones account should get iced…it’s the ultra manipulative nektar61.
People are calling shenanigans. What should we do? Just ignore the 3% results and the obvious effort to cover up information relating to the subject?
Sorry man. Not gonna do it. Wouldn’t be prudent. Ice me if you want. My first post on this site got +35,000 views and was the top ranked hit on google when searching for mushroom paralysis. I think I can make a cop joke or two.
Whats not ok is accusing other members of being police in an effort to hurt their rep instead of responding to their scientific inquiries. If there was nothing to hide she wouldn’t have gotten so upset.
These aren’t cop tactics, these are ‘um im pretty sure my girlfriend is lying to me and every time I ask her she just attacks me personally and storms out of the room tactics.
Now I’m convinced, Nektar was hiding something and not being 100% honest.
Edited by djbabyjesus (10/08/23 12:35 AM)
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x7x_x7x
x7x, my problem child.




Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3,818
Loc: buenos aires
Last seen: 11 days, 14 hours
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: djbabyjesus] 2
#28496201 - 10/08/23 06:41 AM (7 months, 6 days ago) |
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Hey, I see you're trying to come off as tough, very clever, manipulative, and psychopathic. What I don't see is you actually working or contributing anything productive here or to society. You fit the profile of a resentful failure with nothing better to do (not saying you are). Why don't you find a place with "bad boys" like yourself? You probably wouldn't say any of this to anyone's face. By the way, how many teeth are you missing?
Quote:
djbabyjesus said:
Quote:
”the two people I have talked with at Hyphae Labs are not responding to my emails, and this email that used to be the Psilo Cup email is now bouncing: psilocybincup@hyphaelabs.org
Also, Did you even carefully read the experiment thread linked in the first post? I'm not sure you did, based on some of your replies here.
HOWEVER: I do think my tests, even using self bio-assay instead of a lab, has strongly indicated (if not proven) one important thing: if there is any additional psychedelic substance produced by adding either of these substances to a grow, it's not substantial.
So this experiment went a long way to debunk the many noobs who've asked here, Reddit, and elsewhere something like "I have an idea for an experiment someone should do. Someone should add Melatonin, or Tryptophan to shroom substrate. It might make stronger shrooms”
Nektar, I am curious, you seem intelligent, well educated and experienced growing mushrooms.
Why would you do this particular experiment when there is absolutely no evidence adding tryptophan or melatonin would increase psilocybin potency?
Anyone with access to google could have easily deducted other precursors were more fitting.
When smart people start acting like they had no idea what was going on it looks suspicious.
Reasonable suspicion isn’t enough for probable cause for investigation. However when they start adding up it can trigger those flashing lights.
You’re obviously intelligent, but maybe you just didn’t research this one as much as you should have and totally missed readily available information …ok move along….nothing to see here people….
Wait, did you say you were at one point in contact with the group at the center of an on going investigation concerning results in psilocybin competitions? Hold up, ima need to see some ID.
I gotta ask…
Have you been posting this information on any other site than the shroomery?
*shines flash light in back of vehicle*
-------------------- cultivando en la miseria SuctoSpore® Pictorial Tek
 x7x_x7x@shroomery.org carl_jung_in_lsd@yahoo.com koh samui and oak ridge are my favourite strains
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djbabyjesus


Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 341
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: x7x_x7x]
#28496562 - 10/08/23 01:44 PM (7 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
Hey, I see you're trying to come off as tough, very clever, manipulative, and psychopathic. What I don't see is you actually working or contributing anything productive here or to society. You fit the profile of a resentful failure with nothing better to do (not saying you are). Why don't you find a place with "bad boys" like yourself? You probably wouldn't say any of this to anyone's face. By the way, how many teeth are you missing?
Oooh now your talking tough…. I like it…it’s…cute…
I admire your powers of deduction.
For the record I cured wood lovers paralysis. djbabyjesus literally help the paralyzed walk again and help thousands of people avoid and become educated around the topic. Every you tube video on the topic references my work done here on the shroomery. Before I showed up, WLP was nothing but a myth without any treatment options. Now it’s a whole different ball game. It came from the discoveries in my threads. I post original information never before posted on the shroomery. So yeah I think I have actually added something to the community. Now I find thread with misleading information and start a discussion around the discrepancy. All my real life friends see this as a noble cause and support my actions on here. They agree there is misinformation on the shroomery and it needs to be flushed out.
May I ask…. What have you done that was so helpful to the community? Enlighten me to your ground breaking threads. Please, I await your glory.
How many teeth am I missing? Lol great question!
In total I am missing my entire bottom row and a few other molars from an altercation with the Portland police while being dragged out of a rave party on se 9th and pine. I was 16. I had taken 5-10 hits of very strong 90s LSD and had completely lost my mind.
I knocked the first cop out cold, as he fell to the ground, another cop grabbed me from behind/side. I’ve trained in judo since i was 5 and happened to be mid wrestling season and in phenomenal shape. So as u can imagine the second cop was hip tossed right onto his partner. True story, I piled those cops on top of each other. They didn’t see it coming and weren’t ready for that lol.
Then all of the sudden there were hands all over me. I was slammed against the brick wall while the cops and security worked to zip tie my hands and feet.
Then they picked me up by the zip ties, and face planted me right into the side walk. I lost two on the top and one in the bottom that night. I wasn’t ready for that 😂 🤕
A few years later in 2004, I ended up losing my mind at another rave party, getting thrown out….long story short, I was teleporting and when the cops caught up with me, I was trying ti teleport away but they had me in the ground and one of them hit me with a knee to the side of my face and broke almost my entire bottom left side out. I had to most removed because they had been broken so badly.
Yes, I am missing many teeth, but I still got my money makers sucker!!!! 😂
And yeah you’re right, djbabyjesus is a psycho for sure. I agree, you’re dealing with a different kind of animal you’re not used to.
Portland has become a lawless paradise for people like me. Come on down brother. I speak like this on the daily, unless you are a cop with back up ready, my words stay the same.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,867
Loc: Canada
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: djbabyjesus] 9
#28497364 - 10/09/23 08:13 AM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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Let’s all tone down the accusations and flaming please. This thread is actually interesting.
OP I like where you are trying to go here, good science should be repeatable and tested thoroughly. If you would like my two cents on the matter the first piece is that bio assay is very imprecise. The way I would skirt that issue for this test would be to find a clone or isolate that is very weak. Something almost bunk. Then see if the additives can increase the potency. This might be easier to measure than starting with already average or strong fruit.
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WhoManBeing
PsychedelicYogi



Registered: 09/01/13
Posts: 3,844
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 10 days, 8 hours
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: Pastywhyte]
#28497428 - 10/09/23 09:38 AM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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What if was to soak the coco coir in a ayahuasca brew then use that coir to cake mycelium? Would that have something happening there?
-------------------- Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!! Eye was thinking the other day... ahh, thinking never done me no good.
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nektar61



Registered: 07/04/20
Posts: 3,299
Loc: Cube Satellite
Last seen: 12 hours, 17 minutes
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: Pastywhyte] 1
#28498359 - 10/09/23 11:54 PM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Let’s all tone down the accusations and flaming please.
That guy is peeing all over threads by several people with actual research being done. And apparently telling Bod and Alan Rockefeller they don't know what they're talking about. I don't have to tell you that those two guys know more than most people about mushrooms.
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: This thread is actually interesting.
I was partially inspired by your (I'm paraphrasing from memory) "little kids mixing mud pies and grass clippings with the garden hose is not science."
So I actually did this with a clone and used a control group (of same clone).
Many people on this site claim to do experiments, but that is really the entry level for it being science.
What I determined from my bio assay is that adding either of these things does not markedly improve the drug content. It might improve it slightly (or even decrease it slightly), but since it's already so doable to grow strong shrooms without it, I think it's not worth doing for growers with either of these two substances.
The experiment, however, is worth replicating by others, and needs to be replicable to be science. But I'm starting a new job with more hours and don't really have time to keep it going with it, or even to be tripping for some time.
I'm busy too finishing up a stronger x7x, should be ready soon. on F7 now.
In my document I invite others to repeat my tests, and I hope people do. But the bare minimum would be "use a clone and use a control group (of same clone) without the additives", grown at same place, same time, in same way.
If someone with access to a lab does it, also chem assay your melatonin and tryptophan before you start the experiment.
Some cheap bulk Melatonin can have actual serotonin in it, as byproduct of sloppy synthesis. Could change your results, or could actually be dangerous.
Kat
"26 percent of the (Melatonin) supplements contained serotonin, a hormone that can have harmful effects even at relatively low levels." https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/melatonin-what-you-need-to-know
Edited by nektar61 (10/10/23 12:09 AM)
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,843
Loc: Canada
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61] 2
#28499184 - 10/10/23 06:01 PM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
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There's plenty of l-tryptophan already present in cereal grains. Raw wheat berries contain roughly 450mg of l-tryptophan/100g of wheat, for example.
The biogenesis of neurotransmitters and hormones such as serotonin or melatonin begins with l-tryptophan, along with the prized 4-phosphoryloxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine.
On the otherhand, de novo biosynthesis from d-erythrose-4-phosphate and phosphoenol pyruvate requires 13 steps and 12 enzymes, with some unknown percentage of intact l-tryptophan potentially taken from the environment, but I'm not certain how much of the alkoloid content is produced de novo versus recruitment from the substrate, perhaps none, that is to say, other than the necessary amino acids.
I believe the chemistry is far too complicated to assume one generic precursor like l-tryptophan, added to what is essentially a swimming pool of already available l-tryptophan, would correlate directly to the production of more 4-phosphoryloxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine.
To be certain, this would require some serious equipment and training to ascertain. With the abundance of l-tryptophan already present in cereal grains, I have serious doubts regarding supplentation, much like bringing sand to a very sandy beach.
I'm not certain but my gut tells me that melatonin is not along the correct pathway to result in 4-phosphoryloxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong....

But I don't appear to be.
This seems like the most reasonable position, in my humble opinion.
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nektar61



Registered: 07/04/20
Posts: 3,299
Loc: Cube Satellite
Last seen: 12 hours, 17 minutes
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28499340 - 10/10/23 08:00 PM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
Stipe-n Cap said: There's plenty of l-tryptophan already present in cereal grains. Raw wheat berries contain roughly 450mg of l-tryptophan/100g of wheat, for example.
The biogenesis of neurotransmitters and hormones such as serotonin or melatonin begins with l-tryptophan, along with the prized 4-phosphoryloxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine.
On the otherhand, de novo biosynthesis from d-erythrose-4-phosphate and phosphoenol pyruvate requires 13 steps and 12 enzymes, with some unknown percentage of intact l-tryptophan potentially taken from the environment, but I'm not certain how much of the alkoloid content is produced de novo versus recruitment from the substrate, perhaps none, that is to say, other than the necessary amino acids.
I believe the chemistry is far too complicated to assume one generic precursor like l-tryptophan, added to what is essentially a swimming pool of already available l-tryptophan, would correlate directly to the production of more 4-phosphoryloxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine.
To be certain, this would require some serious equipment and training to ascertain. With the abundance of l-tryptophan already present in cereal grains, I have serious doubts regarding supplentation, much like bringing sand to a very sandy beach.
I'm not certain but my gut tells me that melatonin is not along the correct pathway to result in 4-phosphoryloxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong....

But I don't appear to be.
This seems like the most reasonable position, in my humble opinion.
Good info. Thank you.
But did you read my short write up? I'm not trying to say "this should work", and I'm of the position from this experiment that neither of these two supplements raise potency. I've explained this at 3 times in my responses on this thread. It's very clearly stated in my link.
That troll who got banned screaming at everyone was here screaming at me that this would never work, before he even read my report saying it didn't work.
Someone should try Indole. Though Indole is used as starting material in at least one simple DMT total synthesis, so pouring it on mushrooms might the less wise thing to do with it.
I wasn't trying to prove they would, I was trying to debunk common "hey wouldn't it be great to try...." things that have been posted here and elsewhere for decades, usually by noobs who haven't grown a good shroom yet.
My thesis was that it wouldn't work, but I was open to stating results if it did work. As for why I didn't lab test, that's explained elsewhere in this thread.
I debunked it, but invite people to replicate (with clone and control) to try it, and to try other supplements.
As I said in my report, Shulgin thought something might work as easily as just adding to the substrate:
Shulgin said of Psilocbe mushrooms in Tihkal "Normally, this mushroom species dutifully converts N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) to psilocin, by introducing a 4-hydroxyl group into the molecule by something that is probably called an indole 4-hydroxylase by the biochemists.You put DMT in, and you get 4-hydroxy-DMT out, and this is psilocin. Maybe if you put Mickey Mouse in, you would get 4-hydroxy-Mickey Mouse out. It is as if the mushroom psyche didn't really care what it was working with, it was simply compelled to do its sacred duty to 4-hydroxylate any tryptamine it came across. It was observed that if you put N,N-diethyltryptamine (DET, not a material found in nature) into the growing process, the dutiful and ignorant enzymes would hydroxylate it to 4-hydroxy-N,N-diethyltryptamine (4-HO-DET) a potent drug also not known in nature."
Edited by nektar61 (10/10/23 11:38 PM)
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nektar61



Registered: 07/04/20
Posts: 3,299
Loc: Cube Satellite
Last seen: 12 hours, 17 minutes
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61] 1
#28499344 - 10/10/23 08:02 PM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
WhoManBeing said: What if was to soak the coco coir in a ayahuasca brew then use that coir to cake mycelium? Would that have something happening there?
You're probably the 30th person I've seen suggest similar. (Most probably quoting someone who's quoting someone who's quoting what Shulgin is quoted as saying in the post above).
It's a waste of drugs and money. (Not for Shulgin, he was an excellent industrial chemist who could make anything in full synthesis for cheap. But even he only mentions it in theory, there's no evidence he ever tried it.)
I think that most people commenting here on this thread have not even read my short report. I mention this in the report linked in the top post of this page:
"People sometimes suggest using DMT, which is stupid. An ounce of DMT costs about 3000 dollars, and if you've got it, you've already got drugs. Why make it into similar drugs?"
"(...what you'd want to use is) something that costs about 5 dollars an ounce."
(which is another reason I picked the two substances I picked)
Edited by nektar61 (10/10/23 08:12 PM)
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Stipe-n Cap


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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61] 4
#28499369 - 10/10/23 08:20 PM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
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Yeah, I have doubts that dmt just converts to psilocin when introduced to the sub. I have no idea why he'd think such a thing, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm not a a famous drug chemist, or any kind of chemist, and I doubt he was much of a mycologist.
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nektar61



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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28499376 - 10/10/23 08:25 PM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
Stipe-n Cap said: Yeah, I have doubts that dmt just converts to psilocin when introduced to the sub. I have no idea why he'd think such a thing, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm not a a famous drug chemist, or any kind of chemist, and I doubt he was much of a mycologist.
Yes.
I think he might have tried it if shrooms were as easy to grow back then as they are now.
But the fact that he thinks there is something that would do it means someone might want to try different things. Shrooms are so cheap to grow it would cost very little to try a number of things. Though there's also the possibility it might form something toxic, like large quantities of serotonin, or worse, which is why I started with tiny amounts.
I'd postulate that one wouldn't need a lab to start. Just use clones, and control, and have several experienced trippers willing to bio assay at the drop of a hat.
If you find the magic substance (OTC, not regulated, cheap as aspirin), that makes shrooms 2 or 3 times as strong, a real game changer, it will be obvious. Then replicate, then pay a lab to analyze it and the control, then publish results here.
If it's less than 2x or 3x, just grow a different variety.
To make it very clear: I was NOT trying to find this to use for my growing. I've grown more shrooms that I could do in the rest of my life. I'm just sick of newbs saying "Oh, maybe people should try adding ________ to their grows."
It's always newbs who haven't even grown an ounce of kick ass mold-free shrooms. Once you've done that, you kind of forget about things like this.
Edited by nektar61 (10/10/23 08:39 PM)
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nektar61



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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28499386 - 10/10/23 08:35 PM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
Stipe-n Cap said: Yeah, I have doubts that dmt just converts to psilocin when introduced to the sub. I have no idea why he'd think such a thing, but maybe I'm wrong.
Shulgin doesn't make it clear, but this last part in that section sounds like he or someone he knows has tried it, though he doesn't explain how it was "put into the growing process" or who observed it:
"It was observed that if you put N,N-diethyltryptamine (DET, not a material found in nature) into the growing process, the dutiful and ignorant enzymes would hydroxylate it to 4-hydroxy-N,N-diethyltryptamine (4-HO-DET) a potent drug also not known in nature."
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Icyurmt
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61] 2
#28499416 - 10/10/23 09:11 PM (7 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
nektar61 said:
Quote:
Stipe-n Cap said: Yeah, I have doubts that dmt just converts to psilocin when introduced to the sub. I have no idea why he'd think such a thing, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm not a a famous drug chemist, or any kind of chemist, and I doubt he was much of a mycologist.
Yes.
I think he might have tried it if shrooms were as easy to grow back then as they are now.
But the fact that he thinks there is something that would do it means someone might want to try different things.
When Shulgin was alive the psilocybin biosynthesis pathway and specific enzymes involved were still unknown. At that time it was believed that DMT was one of the metabolites/steps involved so it seems he was likely working off of what turned out to be a false assumption. The paper identifying the 4 enzymes and true pathway didn’t come out until 2017. Enzymatic Synthesis of Psilocybin
-------------------- 👁️ 🌊 why you are empty. Hunt for the habitat not the mushroom.
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Icyurmt
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: Icyurmt] 1
#28499450 - 10/10/23 09:56 PM (7 months, 3 days ago) |
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It seems that trying to get the organism to take up either more of or a different compound altogether, could be a problem here even if you used a substrate/precursor that the enzymes would work on.
I’ve been wondering if pickling/soaking them fresh using a doped brine of some sort could have any impact. Or maybe using an extract or a slurry and incubating something in that? Lemon chemist tek?
-------------------- 👁️ 🌊 why you are empty. Hunt for the habitat not the mushroom.
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nektar61



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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: Icyurmt] 1
#28499494 - 10/10/23 11:08 PM (7 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icyurmt said: When Shulgin was alive the psilocybin biosynthesis pathway and specific enzymes involved were still unknown. At that time it was believed that DMT was one of the metabolites/steps involved so it seems he was likely working off of what turned out to be a false assumption. The paper identifying the 4 enzymes and true pathway didn’t come out until 2017. [url=https://onlinelibrary.wileysecond or fourth hand .com/doi/10.1002/anie.201705489]Enzymatic Synthesis of Psilocybin[/url]
OK, excellent addition here.
In that case he may have been uncharacteristically repeating rumors as fact with this:
"It was observed that if you put N,N-diethyltryptamine (DET, not a material found in nature) into the growing process, the dutiful and ignorant enzymes would hydroxylate it to 4-hydroxy-N,N-diethyltryptamine (4-HO-DET)"
PiHKAL and TiHKAL, while providing actual tested non-bullshit synthesis for many substances (unlike some other underground chemistry books out there, and many of the drugs being his own creations), both works do have sections that read less like peer-reviewed journal publishing and more like a reporting / editing / citation mess.
For instance, some of the Shulgin Rating Scale results at the end of a section for each drug don't always make it clear if it's first hand (him or Ann), second hand of someone taking it in front of him in his living room and conveying to him directly (sometimes was), or if he gave someone a take home dose and asked them later, and maybe they gave some to a friend who never met Shulgin, so it's 3rd or 4th hand by that point.
That wouldn't in any way pass muster for a clinical drug trial for a the pharmaceutical company where he used to work.
Maybe the same happened with "It was observed that if you put Z into shrooms you get X-alated Z compound out the other end of the shroom grow equation."
I wish that part had more info. There are people around who knew him and might have discussed this. Hamilton Morris comes to mind.
I don't fault him for this omission, they had a lot to do for 2 people. Just writing and editing those books seems like a monumental task, even on top of the chemistry behind them.
Edited by nektar61 (10/10/23 11:21 PM)
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nektar61



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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: Icyurmt]
#28499510 - 10/10/23 11:43 PM (7 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icyurmt said: It seems that trying to get the organism to take up either more of or a different compound altogether, could be a problem here even if you used a substrate/precursor that the enzymes would work on
I'm trying to think if this works with any non-animal commercial crop.
There's been work in giving plants hormones, but I believe that's more for bigger physical yield than any potency. Grafting powder contains hormones to stimulate growth to make the graft more likely to take.
Fertilizers are common to make plants healthier and yield more plant material, but is there any drug or medical plant or fungus commonly grown, where part of the current process is to "dope" the slurry with something to increase the amount of compound?
Maybe something used with vat-sized penicillin production?
I'm not talking about DNA altering, that's a different animal. I'm just talking about "pouring some shit into the grow medium to get more of the good stuff."
Pot? Most of the work there is old fashioned strengthening by breeding, isn't it?
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Stipe-n Cap


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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61] 3
#28499669 - 10/11/23 06:03 AM (7 months, 3 days ago) |
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Psychoactive fungi are organisms which do not require many environmental resources, with the exception of water, to produce fruit and chemistry. The highest concentrations of these compounds are found in species growing in environments nearly void of resources other than decaying wood, grasses, and water.
I am inclined to believe that cereal grains by comparison are quite rich, and provides more than the organism can handle.

I'd be very surprised if it could be proven that supplementation beyond the addition of cereal grains would have any effect whatsoever, unless one could identify a gap in the provision supplied by any particular grain. Grains are rich in fats, proteins, amino acids, l-tryptophan, etc.
I would lean more in the direction of complex symbiosis with other organsms rather than direct feeding via supplementation.
Edited by Stipe-n Cap (10/12/23 07:51 AM)
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nektar61



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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28501001 - 10/11/23 10:47 PM (7 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Stipe-n Cap said: Psychoactive fungi are microorganisms...
Can you explain what you mean please?
Edited by nektar61 (10/12/23 05:59 AM)
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61] 1
#28501293 - 10/12/23 07:51 AM (7 months, 2 days ago) |
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Whoopsie doodle, "organisms". I write microorganism with inordinate frequency, my bad. Slip of the ol thumbs 
Edited for clarity.
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nektar61



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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 1
#28502759 - 10/13/23 03:54 AM (7 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Stipe-n Cap said: Whoopsie doodle, "organisms". I write microorganism with inordinate frequency, my bad. Slip of the ol thumbs 
Edited for clarity.
Thank you. Whole post makes a lot more sense now. haha.
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Land Trout
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61] 3
#28503752 - 10/13/23 08:36 PM (7 months, 1 day ago) |
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Thanks for doing this stuff Nektar. It always baffled me that people could think adding stuff like that would change what the mushroom produces. If organisms worked like that the natural world would be very strange. And thank you to the mods for helping to keep things civil.
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nektar61



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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: Land Trout] 2
#28503889 - 10/13/23 11:32 PM (7 months, 21 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Land Trout said: Thanks for doing this stuff Nektar. It always baffled me that people could think adding stuff like that would change what the mushroom produces. If organisms worked like that the natural world would be very strange.
You're welcome.
These rumors (that adding something to shroom grow substrate makes more drugs or a different drug) are probably all based on that one short part by Sasha Shulgin quoted above.
It was in a book that was widely read, including by people who might have not understood the chemistry but that part they got.
It looks now looks like that part might have been a rare lapse from the empirical for Shulgin, considering the other info learned since, including the paper linked in Icyurmt's post here; https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28499416#28499416
The newbs who eternally say "But what if you add melatonin (or DMT) to the substrate?" are probably all quoting something on Reddit that's quoting someone's older stoner brother who's quoting his non-chemist friend who read Sasha's books and only understood that one part.
Edited by nektar61 (10/13/23 11:43 PM)
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on_a_dventure
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61] 1
#28549864 - 11/20/23 06:52 AM (5 months, 25 days ago) |
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If ur in touch with the peeps at Oakland hyphea just have them test ur products with a hplc system or more advanced equipment to test psyclocybin levels . Also just my personal experiences we use bioreactors to produce huge amounts psilocybin in lc(pretty much) which we extract . I will tell u the psilocybin content of the same culture does change depending on the ingredients in the lc ghosts can b anywhere from 1.1% to 3.1% depending on ingredients but the winner in psilocybin production so far for us has BN Psilocybe semilanceata blew my mind 3.8%. haven't exhausted list yet but we drop a couple new varieties a month to test n c wat happens so can give more info but will b at a later date//now I feel dumb I just read instead of skimming u are trying to produce chemicals other than psilocybin??
Edited by on_a_dventure (11/20/23 06:54 AM)
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: on_a_dventure] 5
#28549895 - 11/20/23 07:35 AM (5 months, 25 days ago) |
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Lol.
This is about boosting trypatamine content in fruit bodies by amending substrate with precursors like melatonin.
You appear to be talking about boosting tryptamine content in mycelium by amending LC with....whatever your amendments are. I have to say I'm a tad disappointed that you're addressing us with the shorthand of a 13 yo girl who's texting her besty for make-up tips, instead of proper English, which causes me to have doubts.
Perhaps you can provide a few more details? I'd be interested to hear how you're achieving this.
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Land Trout
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28549958 - 11/20/23 08:47 AM (5 months, 25 days ago) |
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on_a_dventure
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 2
#28592087 - 12/20/23 10:43 PM (4 months, 25 days ago) |
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Sorry my English grammar isn't at ur masters level but thank u for calling me a highschool girl. I always wanted to b bubbly n a girl dream do come true !!!
Ps.. sorry I misunderstood that this wasn't bout lc
Edited by on_a_dventure (12/20/23 10:45 PM)
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DERRAYLD
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: on_a_dventure]
#28593536 - 12/22/23 12:08 AM (4 months, 24 days ago) |
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No one is using masters level English here, Stipe was pointing out your 13yr old short hand and lack of grammar.
Something to be said for educated, knowledgeable posts that don't look like children's writing.
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Nillion
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61] 1
#28599956 - 12/27/23 03:32 PM (4 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
The subsequent step involves the 4-hydroxylation of tryptamine by a cytochrome P450-like monooxygenase, PsiH.
If the fungal enzymes can incorporate tryptamine and hydroxylate it, that doesn't appear to refute the notion that adding tryptamines can increase alkaloid content. It supports it.
The idea that N methylation of tryptamine makes it inaccessible to the fungal enzymatic pathways seems like a bold and unsubstantiated claim.
If we consider work like In silico characterization of the psilocybin biosynthesis pathway published just last summer we can read the following from the abstract:
Quote:
The final models were then evaluated using molecular docking interactions with their substrates, i.e., psilocybin precursors (l-tryptophan, tryptamine, 4-hydroxytryptamine, and norbaeocystin/baeocystin), all of which generated feasible binding modes for the expected biotransformation. Further plausibility of the psilocybin → aeruginascin, 4-hydroxytryptamine → norpsilocin, and tryptamine → N,N-dimethyltryptamine conversions, all mediated by the generated model for PsiM, suggests valid routes of formation for these key secondary metabolites.
Even the computer models based on the elucidated pathways indicate that biotransformation and incorporation of tryptamines like DMT into fungal alkaloid content is plausible. This only further serves to validate Gartz's experiments showing substantial alkaloid increases obtained through the use of precursor molecules being added to a substrate.
The current science of today doesn't refute the idea of using tryptamine precursors to enhance potency, rather it supports it thoroughly.
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nektar61



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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: Nillion]
#28607936 - 01/03/24 02:40 AM (4 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Nillion said: ...Gartz's experiments showing substantial alkaloid increases obtained through the use of precursor molecules being added to a substrate.
Interesting.
Do you have a link to Gartz's experiments? I'm not finding it.
Thank you.
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Nillion
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61]
#28608047 - 01/03/24 06:56 AM (4 months, 12 days ago) |
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https://zero.sci-hub.se/4564/f22bf28cb120dd03e779048dde7f5973/gartz1989.pdf https://www.fungifun.org/docs/mushrooms/Psilocybe/BIOTRANSFORMATION%20OF%20TRYPTAMINE%20IN%20FRUITING%20MYCELIA%20OF%20PSILOCYBE%20%20CUBENSIS.pdf
One of these links should work.
The idea that DMT cannot be transformed to psilocin is contraindicated by all available scientific evidence and anecdotes from people who have added certain root bark to PF cakes and fruited them and then compared the activity and dose of said fungi to controls lacking the bark.
The idea that it is a waste, because these fungi do not need DMT in their media to make active alkaloids is accurate. It is not needed and it quite wasteful. Rather than taking culture and adding potential precursors to get stronger fungi it is far more pragmatic and accessible to just grow fungal cultures lines or species that are known to be stronger than average. Nats, Pans or things like Tidal Wave can be plenty strong.
Still, I've been amused by the claims that the method doesn't work coming from those who have not tried it. At least one person has gone around badmouthing Gartz and claiming that he faked his studies. I don't believe this whatsoever.
Consider the material in this paper: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1476927123000452
So far all the science I am aware of indicates Gartz is legit AF. To say nothing of the anecdotes that support him as well.
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Nillion
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61]
#28608050 - 01/03/24 06:59 AM (4 months, 12 days ago) |
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I should add, I am not aware of any reason Melatonin would be incorporated into the enzyme pathway or act as a substrate for the enzymes involved.
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Nillion
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61]
#28608088 - 01/03/24 07:30 AM (4 months, 12 days ago) |
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I found a shroomery page about this: https://www.shroomery.org/9040/Tryptamine-Cubensis
It has this claim:
Quote:
No one has been able to replicate these results even though thousands of people have tried.
I consider that either a lie or a misconception.
I recall Alan banning someone from the FB group for reporting that they tried a MHRB variant of the method and that it worked. There have been at least some people who have experimented with this and who have had results confirming what Gartz did, who have been silenced and had their comments deleted because they shared experiences that didn't fit the preferred narrative.
As for the claim that thousands have tried to replicate Gartz's radiolabeled tryptamine experiment, I've yet to read a single study that attempted to replicate it, let alone a study that tried to do this and which found that the radiolabeled tryptamine remained in the media. Given the scientific data, including the new information about enzyme pathways, as well as Gartz's data and anecdotes of people who have had personally convincing results, I would take any claims that this does not work with a grain of salt.
If someone can post a link to one of the many thousands of studies that are out there, evidently, where no radioactive tryptamine was found incorporated into psilocin and it was found to remain in the substrate, then please do. I think it is time that claim had some evidence before people accept that all replication has failed.
I think a personal grudge against Gartz has more to do with the naysaying on this topic than reality, but that is my personal opinion. Given what I've seen happen in the FB group this post could get me banned permanently from the Shroomery.
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HelloImBob
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28620732 - 01/14/24 09:34 AM (4 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Stipe-n Cap said: Lol.
This is about boosting trypatamine content in fruit bodies by amending substrate with precursors like melatonin.
You appear to be talking about boosting tryptamine content in mycelium by amending LC with....whatever your amendments are. I have to say I'm a tad disappointed that you're addressing us with the shorthand of a 13 yo girl who's texting her besty for make-up tips, instead of proper English, which causes me to have doubts.
Perhaps you can provide a few more details? I'd be interested to hear how you're achieving this.
Sorry but I love this post I couldn't have said it better.
Even the fact that he got upset over it kind of proves it's not worth your time in so many ways it just makes you look exactly like the picture he painted.
Please don't get upset with the people with intelligence if they make a joke from time to time. They after all are the only ones who could possibly help you with your advanced questions/topics.
He was only trying to put it into perspective. If you were in his position and the roles were swapped, would you feel that it would be worth your time to explain something advanced to somebody that probably wouldn't understand it in the first place?
He was only trying to qualify wether or not it was worth his time.
-------------------- Quote from Stipe-n-Cap "You appear to be talking about boosting tryptamine content in mycelium by amending LC with....whatever your amendments are. I have to say I'm a tad disappointed that you're addressing us with the shorthand of a 13 yo girl who's texting her besty for make-up tips, instead of proper English, which causes me to have doubts."
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nektar61



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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: HelloImBob]
#28628089 - 01/20/24 04:16 AM (3 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
HelloImBob said: He was only trying to qualify wether or not it was worth his time.
If on_a_dventure had the tiny bit of patience to spend five minutes reading my results, linked in the very first post of this thread, he'd have his answer.
If it was too complex for him to read, there's his answer.
I can also tell he didn't bother to even skim this thread, because he told me to use Oakland hyphea for analysis.
I already explained in this thread that I'd tried involving them and they showed themselves to be flaky time wasters who say one thing then do another.
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nektar61



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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28642792 - 02/01/24 10:24 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Stipe-n Cap said: Yeah, I have doubts that dmt just converts to psilocin when introduced to the sub. I have no idea why he'd think such a thing, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm not a a famous drug chemist, or any kind of chemist, and I doubt he was much of a mycologist.
I'm still saying my test indicated that adding either of these substances to substrate does NOT increase actives.
But I did find something I didn't find before, an example of a fungi producing more of a desired substance by adding something to the grow medium.
On the Wikipedia page for the antibiotic Phenoxymethylpenicillin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenoxymethylpenicillin
says
"Contamination of the fermentation tanks was a persistent problem and in 1951, the company biologist, Ernst Brandl, attempted to solve this by adding phenoxyethanol to the tanks as an anti-bacterial disinfectant. This resulted unexpectedly in an increase in penicillin production: but, the penicillin produced was not benzylpenicillin, but phenoxymethylpenicillin."
One of the citations for that section is a book, but the other one is online and has more info:
"This effect of phenylacetic acid was regarded in many quarters as a probable stimulation by a plant hormone-like substance. In contrast, we held it likely that phenylacetic acid acted as a precursor in surface culture, and it was suggested that some other substances would fulfill a similar function for submerged cultures. A considerable number of derivatives of phenylacetic acid have been found to be effective in stimulating the production of penicillin in submerged cultures."
from the PDF:
"BIOSYNTHESIS OF PENICILLINS I. BIOLOGICAL PRECURSORS FOR BENZYLPENICILLIN (PENICILLIN G) BY OTTO K. BEHRENS, JOSEPH CORSE,* REUBEN G. JONES, MARJORIE J. MANN, QUENTIN F. SOPER, F. R. VAN ABEELE, AND MING-CHIEN CHIANGt" https://www.jbc.org/article/S0021-9258(18)57194-5/pdf
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