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InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61] * 2
    #28499184 - 10/10/23 06:01 PM (3 months, 16 days ago)

There's plenty of l-tryptophan already present in cereal grains. Raw wheat berries contain roughly 450mg of l-tryptophan/100g of wheat, for example.

The biogenesis of neurotransmitters and hormones such as serotonin or melatonin begins with l-tryptophan, along with the prized 4-phosphoryloxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine.

On the otherhand, de novo biosynthesis from d-erythrose-4-phosphate and phosphoenol pyruvate requires 13 steps and 12 enzymes, with some unknown percentage of intact l-tryptophan potentially taken from the environment, but I'm not certain how much of the alkoloid content is produced de novo versus recruitment from the substrate, perhaps none, that is to say, other than the necessary amino acids.

I believe the chemistry is far too complicated to assume one generic precursor like l-tryptophan, added to what is essentially a swimming pool of already available l-tryptophan, would correlate directly to the production of more 4-phosphoryloxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine.

To be certain, this would require some serious equipment and training to ascertain. With the abundance of l-tryptophan already present in cereal grains, I have serious doubts regarding supplentation, much like bringing sand to a very sandy beach.

I'm not certain but my gut tells me that melatonin is not along the correct pathway to result in 4-phosphoryloxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong....



But I don't appear to be.

This seems like the most reasonable position, in my humble opinion.


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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #28499340 - 10/10/23 08:00 PM (3 months, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Stipe-n Cap said:
There's plenty of l-tryptophan already present in cereal grains. Raw wheat berries contain roughly 450mg of l-tryptophan/100g of wheat, for example.

The biogenesis of neurotransmitters and hormones such as serotonin or melatonin begins with l-tryptophan, along with the prized 4-phosphoryloxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine.

On the otherhand, de novo biosynthesis from d-erythrose-4-phosphate and phosphoenol pyruvate requires 13 steps and 12 enzymes, with some unknown percentage of intact l-tryptophan potentially taken from the environment, but I'm not certain how much of the alkoloid content is produced de novo versus recruitment from the substrate, perhaps none, that is to say, other than the necessary amino acids.

I believe the chemistry is far too complicated to assume one generic precursor like l-tryptophan, added to what is essentially a swimming pool of already available l-tryptophan, would correlate directly to the production of more 4-phosphoryloxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine.

To be certain, this would require some serious equipment and training to ascertain. With the abundance of l-tryptophan already present in cereal grains, I have serious doubts regarding supplentation, much like bringing sand to a very sandy beach.

I'm not certain but my gut tells me that melatonin is not along the correct pathway to result in 4-phosphoryloxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong....



But I don't appear to be.

This seems like the most reasonable position, in my humble opinion.




Good info. Thank you.

But did you read my short write up? I'm not trying to say "this should work", and I'm of the position from this experiment that neither of these two supplements raise potency.  I've explained this at 3 times in my responses on this thread. It's very clearly stated in my link.

That troll who got banned screaming at everyone was here screaming at me that this would never work, before he even read my report saying it didn't work.

Someone should try Indole. Though Indole is used as starting material in at least one simple DMT total synthesis, so pouring it on mushrooms might the less wise thing to do with it. 

I wasn't trying to prove they would, I was trying to debunk common "hey wouldn't it be great to try...." things that have been posted here and elsewhere for decades, usually by noobs who haven't grown a good shroom yet.

My thesis was that it wouldn't work, but I was open to stating results if it did work. As for why I didn't lab test, that's explained elsewhere in this thread.

I debunked it, but invite people to replicate (with clone and control) to try it, and to try other supplements.

As I said in my report, Shulgin thought something might work as easily as just adding to the substrate:

Shulgin said of Psilocbe mushrooms in Tihkal
"Normally, this mushroom species dutifully converts N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) to psilocin, by introducing a 4-hydroxyl group into the molecule by something that is probably called an indole 4-hydroxylase by the biochemists.You put DMT in, and you get 4-hydroxy-DMT out, and this is psilocin. Maybe if you put Mickey Mouse in, you would get 4-hydroxy-Mickey Mouse out. It is as if the mushroom psyche didn't really care what it was working with, it was simply compelled to do its sacred duty to 4-hydroxylate any tryptamine it came across. It was observed that if you put
N,N-diethyltryptamine (DET, not a material found in nature) into the growing process, the dutiful and ignorant enzymes would hydroxylate it to 4-hydroxy-N,N-diethyltryptamine (4-HO-DET) a potent drug also not known in nature."


--------------------
-NEW? Start here.


Edited by nektar61 (10/10/23 11:38 PM)


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InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
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Re: Melatonin added to substrate, and also Tryptophan added to substrate [Re: nektar61] * 3
    #28499669 - 10/11/23 06:03 AM (3 months, 15 days ago)

Psychoactive fungi are organisms which do not require many environmental resources, with the exception of water, to produce fruit and chemistry. The highest concentrations of these compounds are found in species growing in environments nearly void of resources other than decaying wood, grasses, and water.

I am inclined to believe that cereal grains by comparison are quite rich, and provides more than the organism can handle.



I'd be very surprised if it could be proven that supplementation beyond the addition of cereal grains would have any effect whatsoever, unless one could identify a gap in the provision supplied by any particular grain. Grains are rich in fats, proteins, amino acids, l-tryptophan, etc.

I would lean more in the direction of complex symbiosis with other organsms rather than direct feeding via supplementation.


Edited by Stipe-n Cap (10/12/23 07:51 AM)


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