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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do.
    #28336358 - 05/26/23 11:52 PM (7 months, 29 days ago)

It's one of the hardest things to learn, to be able to calmly and collectively receive and give productive and constructive criticism in search for a solution to conflicting issues that may arise between individuals or parties.

It has taken me almost 28 years to reach the point of conversation and communication comprehension that I believe and feel I am at during this given period in my life.

I have experienced being able to express concern in an understanding and introspective way that accounts for outside opinions, information and feedback.

I have experienced being able to feel calm and comfortable talking about my fantasies and expressing my sexuality in a casual manner.

I have experienced being able to reflexively abstain from sugary beverages to aid in losing 12kg in 6 months.

I have experienced practice with a guitar that led to muscle memory and practical skills over intermittent sessions for several months.

I have experienced taking personal responsibility for lacking in the maintanence of my car and accepting the financial liabities I induced.

I have experienced compersion and a loss of feelings of FOMO. With genuine adoration for the marriage of a poly woman I have begun dating.

I have had a good time and feel as though I recognise a great deal of opportunities I have set myself up for, and I am grateful to the Sun. :sun:


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28336400 - 05/27/23 01:34 AM (7 months, 29 days ago)

So far, the worst thing I can do is open up new opportunities.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28336438 - 05/27/23 02:27 AM (7 months, 29 days ago)

what has led you to this assessment?


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28336482 - 05/27/23 03:53 AM (7 months, 29 days ago)

Verbal abuse today, but originally by deciding to move on from a 5 year relationship 6 months ago.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28336516 - 05/27/23 05:07 AM (7 months, 29 days ago)

takes time to accommodate that stuff


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28336542 - 05/27/23 05:47 AM (7 months, 29 days ago)

I was already adjusted and prepared for an aggressive response, but the exhibits are damning and don't require further words or my involvement.

I have a prepared statement and a Google drive.

And I ended things amicably, she's a great person, we just grew apart.

Today is professional, last year was personal.


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Offlinetrekko
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly] * 1
    #28336557 - 05/27/23 06:20 AM (7 months, 29 days ago)

I feel for ya man, some of the hardest things we can do is not just open up but open up to ourselves


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28336695 - 05/27/23 09:14 AM (7 months, 29 days ago)

I have a proverbial bullet in the chamber for this case.

It makes my life harder and creates a lot more work for me not to do so.

I just have to walk through that door on Tuesday, read a few paragraphs, share a link, and walk away.

That's the easy part.

But do I dare take responsibility for observing a self induced pitfall?

I told them I wasn't putting my ass on the line for them.

That day the audit was abysmal.

I'm handing over the audit on Tuesday.

I can't imagine how someone could explain away the images of clear mismanagement.

1 was convincing. 30 will be jaw dropping.

It is jaw dropping.



I was giddy to hear he went home early. Over months I saw a trend, and hypothesised it would be self evident if true. It was, and is.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (05/27/23 09:50 AM)


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: trekko]
    #28336729 - 05/27/23 09:44 AM (7 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

trekko said:
I feel for ya man, some of the hardest things we can do is not just open up but open up to ourselves




People get defensive, and I think it is part of what makes communication one of the hardest things to do.

The fuck with me part is over. The find out part is on a collision course.

I haven't taken these steps before or felt like I had the independence to do so, but I do now.

P.S. I do recognise the difference between professional business chatter and casual talk in my language.

I don't know how this will roll out because the photos are a firework themselves. (They're garden management photos)

I don't want to spam music, but am sharing some songs I think can represent mindsets, moods and times of reminiscence.



If not for a representation of my own joy and solace. 


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (05/27/23 12:22 PM)


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28337749 - 05/28/23 02:39 AM (7 months, 28 days ago)

Line after line..

All complete!


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28347745 - 06/05/23 12:50 AM (7 months, 20 days ago)

Well, this weekend I explored some kink had a fantastic experience and some of the best communication and openness I've had so far.

Management was notified of the verbal abuse and the photos and say they have talked to the individuals responsible. Today I came across more blatant mismanagement and have taken another stock of photos and will continue to do so.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28347788 - 06/05/23 02:53 AM (7 months, 20 days ago)

???


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28347796 - 06/05/23 03:16 AM (7 months, 20 days ago)

My communication skills have increased :tongue2:


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28347804 - 06/05/23 03:34 AM (7 months, 20 days ago)

188 communication sudly?

I guess it doesn't really have a cap..


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #28347807 - 06/05/23 03:44 AM (7 months, 20 days ago)

is this about expressing one's views?
what view is being expressed?


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28347812 - 06/05/23 03:54 AM (7 months, 20 days ago)

That I wanna clap them cheeks.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28347823 - 06/05/23 04:50 AM (7 months, 20 days ago)

rejoice! :fireworks:


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28348725 - 06/05/23 07:17 PM (7 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:

People get defensive, and I think it is part of what makes communication one of the hardest things to do.




Why do you think such a reaction makes communication more difficult?  I agree with you BTW.  I assume it's because it feels aggressive and sometimes invites an argument?

My son took debate class in school. I wonder if part of the lesson is to learn to be comfortable with defensive attitudes and arguments.  And not care too much about how people react to what you say.

When we say someone was "defensive" I guess it means they took our words to be a personal attack and they feel emotionally distressed.  Of course, sometimes people verbally attack others, so being "defensive" is sometimes normal and healthy.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #28348761 - 06/05/23 07:49 PM (7 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

sudly said:

People get defensive, and I think it is part of what makes communication one of the hardest things to do.




Why do you think such a reaction makes communication more difficult?  I agree with you BTW.  I assume it's because it feels aggressive and sometimes invites an argument?

My son took debate class in school. I wonder if part of the lesson is to learn to be comfortable with defensive attitudes and arguments.  And not care too much about how people react to what you say.

When we say someone was "defensive" I guess it means they took our words to be a personal attack and they feel emotionally distressed.  Of course, sometimes people verbally attack others, so being "defensive" is sometimes normal and healthy.




Because it can feel more confrontational when someone starts getting angry, irrate and generally uncommunicable.

Getting defensive of one's positions but staying calm can be okay, I think it's the associated aggression that makes such a defensive reaction negative. 

I think it's fine to have defensive attitudes and arguments for sure, but in person aggression and yelling can be a shaking experience.

Even to verbal abuse, I don't think reacting in kind is productive, at least in my experience last week I just said to the guy his feelings were valid and that I don't wish to talk outside of mediation. "It's okay if you feel that way, but I'm letting you know now, that I'm going to be looking to mediation".

Swearing continued, yadayada, we went our separate ways. The dude said a thousand times to others hed take responsibility for telling them to do the wrong thing, and when I said I didn't want to be involved and was taking before and after photos to save my own ass, he lost his shit :lol:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28349097 - 06/06/23 03:02 AM (7 months, 19 days ago)

It might be my fault that you are annoying these people.

sometimes I have antisocial concepts.

mind worms that can creep off the page and make forumites into weirdos


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28349114 - 06/06/23 03:36 AM (7 months, 19 days ago)

I didn't think anyone here was annoyed :shrug:

The only one who seems annoyed is the guy who kept purposely killing plants and telling others to do so until I declined and began taking before and after photos.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28349126 - 06/06/23 04:17 AM (7 months, 19 days ago)

documentation makes sense


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28352862 - 06/09/23 04:40 AM (7 months, 16 days ago)

Just not worrying about what other people are doing or thinking. Focusing on yourself and valuing your own happiness is key to life, as it's what builds the foundation of the happiness you to express to others.

Being prepared to take things day by day is what makes it doable. In my experience.

A lot can happen and plans change frequently, being able to accept that there are alternatives helps too. 


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28352866 - 06/09/23 04:54 AM (7 months, 16 days ago)

how about questioning happiness?


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28352874 - 06/09/23 05:08 AM (7 months, 16 days ago)

Gotta laugh or well cry right?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28352881 - 06/09/23 05:39 AM (7 months, 16 days ago)

intensity with harmonies and layers?


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28352887 - 06/09/23 06:04 AM (7 months, 16 days ago)

Ebb and flow.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28353033 - 06/09/23 09:13 AM (7 months, 16 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Gotta laugh or well cry right?




the crying is going to happen one way or another so may as well laugh together, too. 
Speaking of the latter, what in the hell is laughter even? 

:filosoraptor:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28353050 - 06/09/23 09:33 AM (7 months, 16 days ago)

tail wagging


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28353079 - 06/09/23 10:08 AM (7 months, 16 days ago)

ha!

:manofapproval:


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InvisibleTulipslave
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28361201 - 06/15/23 04:34 PM (7 months, 9 days ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Quote:

sudly said:
Gotta laugh or well cry right?




the crying is going to happen one way or another so may as well laugh together, too. 
Speaking of the latter, what in the hell is laughter even? 

:filosoraptor:





There's usually some shoulders being shrugged, combined with some hand motion, and a shaking of the head......in my world at least.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: Tulipslave]
    #28361233 - 06/15/23 04:59 PM (7 months, 9 days ago)

laughter is a feel good emotional response, it can be silly, it needs no reason, falling down can be very funny. one needs to relax.


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InvisibleTulipslave
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28361256 - 06/15/23 05:16 PM (7 months, 9 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
laughter is a feel good emotional response, it can be silly, it needs no reason, falling down can be very funny. one needs to relax.





In the situation I described above, laughter is more of a concession or expression of defeat, acceptance. Not really in "feel-good" context.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: Tulipslave]
    #28361381 - 06/15/23 07:08 PM (7 months, 9 days ago)

then it is like letting the air out of your tires.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28361386 - 06/15/23 07:13 PM (7 months, 9 days ago)

This'll take the fun out of it for sure, but laughing is an understanding of innuendo, nuance, parabolas, inside references and other fancy linguistical shenanigans.

In person I sometimes laugh in the face of ridiculousness if it's apparent enough.

When last few times I recall, the individuals got mad at my laughing suggesting I was dismissing them which at those points I to an extent was.

Sometimes people say things I understand to be so ridiculous I almost can't help but laugh.

Sometimes understanding what other people don't? Can carry a hefty hrumph. But rarely is it ever negative, only twice do i remember people acting angrily at laughter of something silly.

I've done a million silly things and laugh at myself a lot nowadays. Some of the shit I say or do in person is bonkers, but I enjoy my own company and make the most of it at times. 


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28361434 - 06/15/23 08:12 PM (7 months, 9 days ago)



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InvisibleTulipslave
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28361454 - 06/15/23 08:37 PM (7 months, 9 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
then it is like letting the air out of your tires.





Exasperation!


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InvisibleTulipslave
Homo sapiens sapiens, lol

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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28361461 - 06/15/23 08:42 PM (7 months, 9 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
This'll take the fun out of it for sure, but laughing is an understanding of innuendo, nuance, parabolas, inside references and other fancy linguistical shenanigans.

In person I sometimes laugh in the face of ridiculousness if it's apparent enough.

When last few times I recall, the individuals got mad at my laughing suggesting I was dismissing them which at those points I to an extent was.

Sometimes people say things I understand to be so ridiculous I almost can't help but laugh.

Sometimes understanding what other people don't? Can carry a hefty hrumph. But rarely is it ever negative, only twice do i remember people acting angrily at laughter of something silly.

I've done a million silly things and laugh at myself a lot nowadays. Some of the shit I say or do in person is bonkers, but I enjoy my own company and make the most of it at times. 





I've been in a relationship for right at 3 years (roughly 5 days away since our first date), and though it has perks and pleasures,  I find myself missing the company of myself,.just myself. I have no desire to cheat or go find another partner. I just really enjoy being alone, for many reasons....one of them being I find communication INCREDIBLY hard, and often not worth the effort involved, regardless of outcomes. This can be both healthy and unhealthy. On the flip side, two.of the guys I work with, I have been working with off/on for 13 years. Sometimes we communicate great, other times we don't. But sometimes that communication can mean life or death on the job.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly] * 1
    #28361749 - 06/16/23 06:11 AM (7 months, 9 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
When last few times I recall, the individuals got mad at my laughing suggesting I was dismissing them which at those points I to an extent was.




I've had similar experiences. I think it seemed crass and the other person was sensitive about the subject, which is fine, but it was also taken to mean more than it actually was. Meaning to say they took it to mean I was laughing at them rather than being able to see more than one purpose to laughing.

Not the best way to communicate when it's a serious matter and the other person is already wound up.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: Rahz]
    #28361849 - 06/16/23 08:33 AM (7 months, 9 days ago)

These days, online expressions of laughter, (ROFLMAO, fountains of tears emoji's, etc) are often used in an attempt to demean someone as being stupid (having dumb ignorant views). The psychological motivations for this type of online laughter are often quite different than spontaneous in person laughter.  Online laughter is sometimes a disguise for anger. Online laughter is often trolling. An attempt to trigger anger - in retaliation for feeling disturbed.  You made me angry so I'm going to try to make you mad. 

Online expressions of laughter being used to demean someone has become so commonplace that it's often difficult to take such expressions as fun, lighthearted, and frivolous.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28361904 - 06/16/23 09:35 AM (7 months, 9 days ago)

so online communication (especially at pseudonyminous forums like this one) has several distinguishing merits and drawbacks.

confirmation bias + passive aggressive humor + isolation and bullying being the worst part of its drawbacks
and
exposure to other thoughts + a sense of belonging + coconspiratorial support being the best of its merits.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28361917 - 06/16/23 10:06 AM (7 months, 9 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Online expressions of laughter being used to demean someone has become so commonplace that it's often difficult to take such expressions as fun, lighthearted, and frivolous.




The difference is that in person things happen spontaneously. Online a person has to type it out and them make the decision to send it. Being that it's often not an effective way to communicate to begin with, trying to emulate that dynamic through text for the sake of "keeping it real" just adds another layer of ineffective communication, ill intent or not.

There was a time when I though the internet would bring the world together... lol.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: Rahz]
    #28361942 - 06/16/23 10:32 AM (7 months, 9 days ago)

well you can make whatsapp calls with video and get a pretty good experience communicating with people in your list (but not the anonymous or pseudnyminous members of the shroomery)

we might evolve a better more flexible whatsapp way???

(those three '?'s are my attempt at being present on your screen)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28361959 - 06/16/23 10:52 AM (7 months, 9 days ago)

The internet has it's limitations but there are more flexible ways already. People don't tend to fully use that flexibility, I think because people naturally tend to limit their intimacy out of prudence or fear.

And that's not a terrible thing. For that matter text is a fine way to communicate. One can take their time deciding what to say and that's good but there has to be a desire to communicate effectively which is often missing. And in that case no amount of flexibility will suffice. But if that desire is there, experience and practice make better. Mistakes can be made. Misunderstandings can be corrected. People learn.

I do want to be open minded, but I don't think my original hopes for the internet are realistic. Life is messy. Being open minded, I don't think the internet is a net negative on a personal level. I have other thoughts regarding how such technology enables power structures, but perhaps that is beyond the scope of this conversation.


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: Rahz]
    #28361980 - 06/16/23 11:22 AM (7 months, 9 days ago)

Quote:

thoughts regarding how such technology enables power structures


you mean like religion and propaganda?


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28362089 - 06/16/23 12:33 PM (7 months, 9 days ago)

More like government and corporate propaganda.


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #28362573 - 06/16/23 08:35 PM (7 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said: One can take their time deciding what to say and that's good but there has to be a desire to communicate effectively which is often missing. And in that case no amount of flexibility will suffice. But if that desire is there, experience and practice make better. Mistakes can be made. Misunderstandings can be corrected. People learn.




This struck accord, in a lot of situations people don't seem to have that desire to communicate effectively, just to be heard or agreed with or sorts. Like the aggressive guy from the start of this thread had on numerous occasions talked himself into a rage without input from anyone. He just riled himself up a lot and much of what I or anyone else said was summarily dismissed as we didn't understand that, 'all women are out to get men' sort of stuff.

It's nice to see someone trying to communicate effectively, with acknowledgement of inputs from others and sometimes a recognition of change.


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly] * 1
    #28363970 - 06/18/23 02:59 AM (7 months, 7 days ago)

Communication is only hard because people live in fear of what someone will think of them if they open up and communicate their feelings. People are too judgemental nowadays in order to speak their truths.


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
    #28363988 - 06/18/23 03:32 AM (7 months, 7 days ago)

Well, the world ain't flat. It is difficult to accept constructive criticism or to change ones perspective upon being presented with new information, let alone to understand said information.

The way I see it being wrong is fine, because ignorance just means not knowing and ignorance is not so much a shame as being unwilling to learn. 


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28364245 - 06/18/23 10:50 AM (7 months, 7 days ago)

Should we feel deep compassion for "ignorant" people who lack the will to learn?

“A man can do what he wills, but cannot will what he wills.”

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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #28364251 - 06/18/23 11:03 AM (7 months, 7 days ago)

Why not show some compassion for others?  Especially the ignorant, self included ~ partly because... who's not in included in that boat?  Ha.  It's sort of kinda all inclusive, gnome saying?

So the whole- rescind one's compassion towards another if they're lacking "the will" to learn- idk where to start with that. :picard: 

For one, How would or could you even ever know someone lacks the will to learn?  Also, why chalk it up to "will"- of all things?  :confused:


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Edited by The Blind Ass (06/18/23 11:45 AM)


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #28364258 - 06/18/23 11:08 AM (7 months, 7 days ago)

I was referring to

Quote:

sudly said:

. . . as being unwilling to learn. 




Doesn't being unwilling to learn mean one lacks the will to learn?

I feel they are equivalent - but am willing to consider other perspectives.


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #28364267 - 06/18/23 11:15 AM (7 months, 7 days ago)

will is overrated,
yes feel compassion


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #28364272 - 06/18/23 11:18 AM (7 months, 7 days ago)

You amended your post and I'd like to reply to one other thing

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:

For one, How do you know someone lacks the will to learn?  Also, why chalk it up to "will"- of all things?  :confused:




"willful ignorance" is a very trendy topic these days

I'm not totally sure how I feel about it, but this idea has become popular.  So I'm just trying to follow the concept down the rabbit hole.  Again, I was replying to the "willfull" comment - trying to parse it out a bit.


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28364292 - 06/18/23 11:42 AM (7 months, 7 days ago)

I suppose that depends. 

Specifically wrt learning...
For instance- If I lack the will to learn Bhutanese (aka Dzongkha) - that does not necessarily also mean I'm unwilling to learn new languages altogether now does it? 
Perhaps at the time I'm simply too busy with other things, my plate is full, and I know better than to take on more than I can handle. 


Rather than saying I'm unwilling to learn or lack the will to learn, it tracks to say I'm currently not ready & able to learn Bhutanese.

Also, for the sake of clarity & before going any further how about let's see if we are or aren't working with the same'ish definition of "Will" so we can be on the same page and work from there?

(/*source) Oxford’s English dictionaries

Quote:

(noun) Will : the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action.
eg. "she has an iron will"

Similar:
determination, firmness of purpose, fixity of purpose, will power, strength of character, resolution, resolve, resoluteness, purposefulness, single-mindedness, drive, commitment, dedication, doggedness, tenacity, tenaciousness, staying power, backbone, spine
self-control, self-restraint, self-discipline, self-mastery, volition, Sitzfleisch, stickability, stick-to-itiveness, perseveration, choice, option, decision, discretion, prerogative.


Will: control deliberately exerted to do something or to restrain one's own impulses.
eg. "a stupendous effort of will"

Will: a deliberate or fixed desire or intention.
eg. "Jane had not wanted them to stay against their will"




Either way, I'm thinking maybe using another word other than "will" would serve better.
So..if you had to...how would you rephrase/rewrite the question in question? :wink::strokebeard:


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Edited by The Blind Ass (06/18/23 11:50 AM)


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28364302 - 06/18/23 11:58 AM (7 months, 7 days ago)

People who promote the idea of "willful ignorance" seem to be attracted to the term because it implies that some people make a choice to be stupid.  A person who chooses to be stupid is much worse than a person who lacks brain cells or has a mental disorder.  The psychological motivation for this perspective is to demean - the #1 hobby of humans these days.

We're using the term "will" in a similar way - decisions & choices


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28364308 - 06/18/23 12:05 PM (7 months, 7 days ago)

is it not more a habit of being stupid than a will to stoopidity?
and a lack of interest in learning Balinese rather than the lack of will to learn Balinese.

the word will is confusing and should be stricken from our usage except in the case of guessing what will come next.


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28364337 - 06/18/23 12:34 PM (7 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Should we feel deep compassion for "ignorant" people who lack the will to learn?

“A man can do what he wills, but cannot will what he wills.”

Arthur Schopenhauer




I find that quote agreeable.

I think deep compassion in general is kind of a weight of the world scenario. Sometimes best to just live and let live without judgement. From another perspective compassion is a type of suffering and like will we do not choose to have or not have it. In so much as one might see that the suffering does no good I would suggest letting it go.

Compassion also requires understanding which is often not accessible. To feel another's pain in such a state is just sad and confused.


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28364395 - 06/18/23 01:33 PM (7 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Specifically wrt learning...
For instance- If I lack the will to learn Bhutanese (aka Dzongkha) - that does not necessarily also mean I'm unwilling to learn new languages altogether now does it?




:thumbup:

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
I was referring to

Quote:

sudly said:

. . . as being unwilling to learn. 




Doesn't being unwilling to learn mean one lacks the will to learn?

I feel they are equivalent - but am willing to consider other perspectives.




I think it's more specific than not having a will to learn, I think it's not wanting to known or try to learn specifics, like how the Earth is round. Like being in denial in the face of new evidence because such information doesn't align with personal values, preferences or feelings.


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28364475 - 06/18/23 02:52 PM (7 months, 7 days ago)

Yes, most often bias is at work.

I do wonder with flat Earthers if there's an intelligence deficit at play.


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: Rahz]
    #28364499 - 06/18/23 03:34 PM (7 months, 6 days ago)

I think it's got a lot to do with community and feeling a part of something. The friends you make along the way etc.

But I have seen studies along the lines of suggesting that religious fundamentalists may have learning difficulties :shrug:


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: Rahz]
    #28364511 - 06/18/23 03:54 PM (7 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Yes, most often bias is at work.

I do wonder with flat Earthers if there's an intelligence deficit at play.



cultures tend to stifle intelligence.
tradition is much easier to manage.


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28471774 - 09/16/23 11:36 PM (4 months, 9 days ago)

So as the story goes, the effort I put in to be productive in my workplace backfired on me and I cornered myself in a department I wasn't aiming for.

I spoke up, I was a voice to let the evidence speak for itself, and it told management we had an issue with productivity, not from the worker I cited, but the supervisor who was supposed to be monitoring them.

They then made a business decision to reduce the damage to producivity he was doing. They told me I was more suited to a certain role, but that to reduce stress they would replace the supervisor and maintain me as the productivity loss of me leaving would be greater than if I stayed and was given autonomy.

I was promoted to the field I've outgrown. It took a few days to refocus my aspirations but I've narrowed down on a field of opportunities I am planning to take a grasp on.

There is a pool of opportunity I'm capable and desiring to explore. I've again learnt to slow down and have grown up a bit from this reality of how a good business decision is made.

I would make the same decision as management if I were in those boots to make it, but knowing that I can see the writing on the wall and am willing to gamble on an opportunity that will present itself more timely.

I'm trying to make my own good business decision. I've had supportive people close to me that help.


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28471882 - 09/17/23 04:56 AM (4 months, 9 days ago)

use pen and paper if possible


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28472024 - 09/17/23 08:03 AM (4 months, 9 days ago)

To me this is a concept map I've drafted to model key elements of the decision making process.

It looks like a neural circuitboard to me.

I guess art is in the eye of the beholder.


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Edited by sudly (09/17/23 09:26 AM)


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28472053 - 09/17/23 08:24 AM (4 months, 9 days ago)

it's not only good to write with pen and paper but to draw with it too
just now I am back to would enjoy psychedelics that sensible head space but i am on anti-psychotic meds


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28472068 - 09/17/23 08:37 AM (4 months, 9 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
To me this is a concept map I've drafted to model key elements of the decision making process.




I find it interesting and will comment upon it later.



renamed the central activity and rerouted some peripheral activities.


Edited by redgreenvines (09/17/23 09:07 AM)


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28472156 - 09/17/23 09:43 AM (4 months, 9 days ago)

When it looks like a neural circuit board to me.. :shrug:

Quote:

In contemplating the remarkable capabilities of the human mind, it's intriguing to draw parallels between our biological design and the functionality of a computer chip. While not a literal comparison, this metaphor offers a unique perspective on how our brains process information and make decisions. Just as a computer chip processes data through its intricate circuits, our brains consist of interconnected neurons that transmit electrical signals to facilitate cognitive functions.

Consider memory as an example. In both the human brain and a computer chip, information is stored and retrieved. The brain's neural networks function somewhat like data storage units, allowing us to recall past experiences and knowledge. Similarly, computer chips store and retrieve data from memory banks.

Moreover, our ability to learn and adapt reflects a level of programming akin to the algorithms that govern computer operations. We acquire knowledge, develop skills, and refine our decision-making processes over time, adjusting our responses to various stimuli, much like a computer chip executing specific instructions.

It's essential to note that this comparison is metaphorical and doesn't imply that we have literal computer chips in our brains. Instead, it underscores the remarkable computational capabilities of the human brain, which plays a vital role in our personal development and decision-making processes. This perspective encourages us to appreciate the intricacies of our biological design and the complexity of our cognitive functions, all of which contribute to our unique human experience.




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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly] * 1
    #28472422 - 09/17/23 11:57 AM (4 months, 9 days ago)

Psychology neurology and cybernetics have been climbing a faulty common incline since the late 1950's.

I see the existence of fleeting mental contents as a key to both memory and processing.

Unchanging mental contents disappear without being noticeable. Contemporaneous mental contents becomes associative memory 10 times per second and perceptive reflexes emerge concurrently.

All thinking and behavior is perceptive reflexes (each of which launches within 1/10th of a second - which you could say is the speed of thought).

In the meantime recent mental content is easier to reactivate than fully resting memory and by keeping mental contents recycling we use our minds in a prehensile fashion.

We can take a grip of an idea or sensation and ride it through various ramifications of perception. (word labeling and discursive thinking is one way of recycling perception. Language is a prehensile mental activity.)

When there is no grasping (which is also a perceptive response) then each sensation and perception (the mental contents) tends to fade in 3/10ths of a second unless emotional or stoned or in a meditative trance.



Edited by redgreenvines (09/17/23 12:45 PM)


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28472998 - 09/17/23 07:47 PM (4 months, 8 days ago)

I like the big multi-pronged continuous feedback loop idea.

I dont feel any practical benefit to grasping the time intervals of memory or perception. For the empirical learning of underlying mechanisms sure, but for awareness and behavioural adaptation? I don't feel it.

Is there any way you could see a full understanding of timing intervals in memory and perception being practicable?

I find the mapping of concepts can more easily assist in learning how to approach growth and personal development.

In my mind the question is if a concept map is more appropriate for the laymen than the blueprint of how, when and where information travels.

I would think it depends on if your goal is academic progress or personal growth though 

I just feel really good about the idea of using and looking into concept maps to convey the steps I think are involved in my personal development. It feels like a good reference point for condensing a variety of concepts into a usable guide.

Even if my model is wrong, can you see any benefit to the idea of a relatable concept map of what key elements are involved in decision making, or associative perception?


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Edited by sudly (09/17/23 07:53 PM)


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28473150 - 09/17/23 09:51 PM (4 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
...

Is there any way you could see a full understanding of timing intervals in memory and perception being practicable?

...



I do see it as a huge source of inspiration and understanding, and also very much of value for learning.
Specifically because it is about learning, and about access to memory (which is reflexive perceptions).

for more effective learning you need more cues and references to the thing you want to learn. In other words - like green eggs and ham,
you should review your lessons on a boat, and with a goat, on a train and in the rain, you should review them early and review them late you can even review them on a date. Review your lessons in story form in many contexts and it will be accessible in many contexts.

Another value of knowing this is that you realize that what you have in memory is not something that can be removed from memory - so that managing traumatic memory is about learning to recover from triggered instances of traumatic memory, and not suppressing it, or using magical thinking.

Finally understanding that the rate of granular memory formation and perception is in the range of 10 times per second, you can  use that information to get back in touch with the moment especially when you are lost in thought, or distracted, or freaking out.

That said, I do see value to making charts that you can review to organize and reorganize your understanding of what you think. It takes a huge load off your short term memory, and lets you be more in touch with the moment, by having an additional tool, through which to regain the thread you were thinking.


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28473197 - 09/17/23 10:26 PM (4 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Redgreenvines said: That said, I do see value to making charts that you can review to organize and reorganize your understanding of what you think. It takes a huge load off your short term memory, and lets you be more in touch with the moment, by having an additional tool, through which to regain the thread you were thinking.




Having tools to off load or coalesce the accumulation of short term memories is nice, but trying to approach how to organise them is what I'm aiming at.



This flowchart represents a decision making process for setting and achieving goals, with a focus on tailoring the approach to the complexity of the goal. The concept behind the flowchart aims help individuals tailor their decision making process to match the size and complexity of their goals. By highlighting the appropriate decision making program, individuals can be more aware of how their actions align with the requirements of their specific objectives, whether they are as simple as doing 5 pushups or as complex as starting a business.

And because I thought the decision making process concept map, and the flow chart for tailoring goal complexity almost interact like concentric circles.



Not as something that will convey the strongest message, but as a starting point or reference for future designs.


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Edited by sudly (09/17/23 10:56 PM)


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28473246 - 09/18/23 12:21 AM (4 months, 8 days ago)

Communication is hard! Sometimes my desire to communicate can be quite strong - however, oftentimes even when there are topics or things of which I may be aware of ,and, see a place with my name on it for a post, yet, often I don't. 

Again, communication is hard! If that's so, then 'good-communication' is likely even more so.

I'm unable to adequately depict some choice observations that pertain to another's rhetoric - notably - in terms of lacking a sufficient enough level of linguistic proficiency needed to convey a well worded message clear & true to whomever, however, and whenever (if relevant, ha) - as sparked by the originally envisioned material now having been written out to cohere with the flow of good-sense while participating with others in an ongoing dialogue.   

Sometimes the hurdles faced while attempting to transcribe an observation, vision, and even question or comment into standard written english for communicative purposes (depending on interest - plus, how elaborate & nuanced those 4 said things are potentially) and- simply not worth it, too much, & too time consuming.

In which case - instead of relying on writing as the sole means to getting what's on the mind out & about until (hopefully) getting the gist of it across to another, I'll sometimes also attempt to draw it out, too.  I'd opt for the vulcan mind meld over both if I could, maybe...

Anyways, although the drawing method (as per the ex below) might come more across like a sketchy inkblot test of sorts, rather than a clear, concise, & coherently written message depicting a relevant observation and or comment for strengthening written/drawn communications, anywho - its late af and I need to sleep!
You all make of it what you will.  I find it cathartic, plus the added benefit of having a neat little associative map composed of fused memories, concepts, ideas, dreams, trips, etc, etc.  :oldman:

I'm chalking this post up to an exercise in communication since that generally makes for a good excuse, and, as they say: 'practice makes perfect'.  Btw, I don't buy that.  It might make you better at the practice being practiced, anywho.

Ahh, right... Communication is hard. :sadyes:




eg.



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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #28473457 - 09/18/23 08:40 AM (4 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:

Sometimes my desire to communicate can be quite strong . . .




Recently I've noticed I sometimes desire to communicate about a deeply meaningful emotional experience.  The more intense my experience, the more I want to talk about it.  But the more intense the experience, the less I am able to describe it with words.  It's a conundrum.

Don't ask me to define "deeply meaningful emotional experience" because I don't know what that is


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #28473510 - 09/18/23 09:25 AM (4 months, 8 days ago)

exactly, hence the drawing part. :shrug::thumbup:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28473648 - 09/18/23 11:24 AM (4 months, 8 days ago)

I think deeply meaningful means that it is meaningful in the contexts of the deep dark past, recent past, the present, and possibly the future.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28479053 - 09/22/23 07:16 PM (4 months, 3 days ago)

I personally think it's more clear how to plan to implement a goal than it is to make one.

My next move should be to draft a how to design a realistic goal.

I do it regularly for a range of them, and I want to visualise it for myself to harness my own creativity. It floats freely a lot of the time, landing when ever appropriate, It'd be nice to have a handle on it. 


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly] * 1
    #28479452 - 09/23/23 05:03 AM (4 months, 3 days ago)

I think that when we look into ourselves we discover what our goals might already be, and can then proceed to prioritize them, but we do not actually make goals.

Milestones in a schedule however, which seem to be like arbitrary goals, are logical conditions at which several 'critically related' streams come together.


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28481714 - 09/24/23 08:59 PM (4 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:

Recently I've noticed I sometimes desire to communicate about a deeply meaningful emotional experience.  The more intense my experience, the more I want to talk about it.  But the more intense the experience, the less I am able to describe it with words.  It's a conundrum.

Don't ask me to define "deeply meaningful emotional experience" because I don't know what that is




Intense indeed. To express any intense experience in ape vocalizations is impressive enough.

Sometimes I wonder if I were present 14 billion years ago, to witness the formation of the universe from a vantage outside of space-time... and I were to codify what I saw into the protosemetic heiroglyphs available a few thousand years ago,... I wonder how people would interpret what I had to say.

I still find it amazing that I can understand my wife, whose primary language is not English.

As for goals, I believe sometimes we become conscious of our unconscious goals that were already in place, but that we can also create them on the conscious level. I do, however, agree that the vast majority of our actions are determined subconsciously.

I'm certainly not going to say that I'm a representative sample of any population,... but I often set goals by using various forms of decision-making analyses.


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"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28481913 - 09/24/23 10:37 PM (4 months, 1 day ago)

I had a prayer answered today, I prayed to the me who is as I am, and he told me to apply when suitable, an awareness that aims to focus on productivity through the lens of the Pareto principle.


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 2
    #28482013 - 09/25/23 05:44 AM (4 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

The Blind Ass said:

Sometimes my desire to communicate can be quite strong . . .




Recently I've noticed I sometimes desire to communicate about a deeply meaningful emotional experience.  The more intense my experience, the more I want to talk about it.  But the more intense the experience, the less I am able to describe it with words.  It's a conundrum.

Don't ask me to define "deeply meaningful emotional experience" because I don't know what that is




I think "deeply meaningful" really means that you have many many many associations in memory (from life experience) that relate in some way to what is going on that you FEEL is meaningful.
Naturally this does not quickly fit into words, but it may be addressed in a series of cases that relate, or otherwise you can write a whole autobiographical novel. however,
the intensity and associativeness of it is like epiphany (conformance of state of mind with an overall view) or like eureka (solution as a pervasive problem resolves)


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28482852 - 09/25/23 07:15 PM (4 months, 19 hours ago)

Whatever our individual goals are we tend to come across them from time to time.

So making the goal just is a thing that is pertinent to you and your reflexive day to day reflections.

It happens from time to time.

How to decide upon how to implement or achieve what you set out as long term goals can have the productivity highlighted to help best assess the complexity of the decision through the lens of a Pareto principle.

The 80/20 principle.

In other words, the focus of my personal decision making process and reward system can be implemented to achieve my goals more effectively and overall efficiently when productivity is viewed through the lens of a Pareto principle.

It's just a mantra that can be helpful.

It's a rule of thumb, not a divine intervention.

If I wanted a divine intervention I would pray to myself.


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28484499 - 09/27/23 08:19 AM (3 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
I had a prayer answered today, I prayed to the me who is as I am, and he told me to apply when suitable, an awareness that aims to focus on productivity through the lens of the Pareto principle.




Suds, this is why we love you. :mushroom2:

Hell yes-- become the focal point of that lens!


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28484508 - 09/27/23 08:30 AM (3 months, 30 days ago)

astigmatic lenses are indosyncratic


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28484549 - 09/27/23 09:31 AM (3 months, 30 days ago)

Idiosyncratic?


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28484592 - 09/27/23 10:33 AM (3 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
Idiosyncratic?



almost no 2 are identical


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28485425 - 09/28/23 02:45 AM (3 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
Quote:

sudly said:
I had a prayer answered today, I prayed to the me who is as I am, and he told me to apply when suitable, an awareness that aims to focus on productivity through the lens of the Pareto principle.




Suds, this is why we love you. :mushroom2:

Hell yes-- become the focal point of that lens!




It's more realistic.

To take a realistic approach, slow down, recognise your pace, and think of what you will make yourself do, harness the direction of what you feel anger towards and want to change. Because in crisis we can surprise ourselves with our upper limits.

The eptitude of crisis can be harvested, tamed, redirected, harnessed, encapsulated, shown as the sum of.

The eptitude of crisis can cheer us along.

Crisis can remould our intuition, alter our career trajectories, end relationships and change lives.

If you didn't die, facing crisis can bring growth as a person.   

The idea is redirecting the eptitude of crisis to everyday life.


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28485426 - 09/28/23 02:56 AM (3 months, 29 days ago)

So we event the tipping point.

Meaning going to the lengths to maximize our expression, struggles..

To get the most out of suffering without dying..

This should be legal in society based on consent..


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28485459 - 09/28/23 05:12 AM (3 months, 29 days ago)

I drew this tonight


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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28486171 - 09/28/23 07:50 PM (3 months, 28 days ago)

I saw that, you been busy.


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