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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28361904 - 06/16/23 09:35 AM (7 months, 9 days ago)

so online communication (especially at pseudonyminous forums like this one) has several distinguishing merits and drawbacks.

confirmation bias + passive aggressive humor + isolation and bullying being the worst part of its drawbacks
and
exposure to other thoughts + a sense of belonging + coconspiratorial support being the best of its merits.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28361917 - 06/16/23 10:06 AM (7 months, 9 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Online expressions of laughter being used to demean someone has become so commonplace that it's often difficult to take such expressions as fun, lighthearted, and frivolous.




The difference is that in person things happen spontaneously. Online a person has to type it out and them make the decision to send it. Being that it's often not an effective way to communicate to begin with, trying to emulate that dynamic through text for the sake of "keeping it real" just adds another layer of ineffective communication, ill intent or not.

There was a time when I though the internet would bring the world together... lol.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: Rahz]
    #28361942 - 06/16/23 10:32 AM (7 months, 9 days ago)

well you can make whatsapp calls with video and get a pretty good experience communicating with people in your list (but not the anonymous or pseudnyminous members of the shroomery)

we might evolve a better more flexible whatsapp way???

(those three '?'s are my attempt at being present on your screen)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28361959 - 06/16/23 10:52 AM (7 months, 9 days ago)

The internet has it's limitations but there are more flexible ways already. People don't tend to fully use that flexibility, I think because people naturally tend to limit their intimacy out of prudence or fear.

And that's not a terrible thing. For that matter text is a fine way to communicate. One can take their time deciding what to say and that's good but there has to be a desire to communicate effectively which is often missing. And in that case no amount of flexibility will suffice. But if that desire is there, experience and practice make better. Mistakes can be made. Misunderstandings can be corrected. People learn.

I do want to be open minded, but I don't think my original hopes for the internet are realistic. Life is messy. Being open minded, I don't think the internet is a net negative on a personal level. I have other thoughts regarding how such technology enables power structures, but perhaps that is beyond the scope of this conversation.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: Rahz]
    #28361980 - 06/16/23 11:22 AM (7 months, 9 days ago)

Quote:

thoughts regarding how such technology enables power structures


you mean like religion and propaganda?


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28362089 - 06/16/23 12:33 PM (7 months, 9 days ago)

More like government and corporate propaganda.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #28362573 - 06/16/23 08:35 PM (7 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said: One can take their time deciding what to say and that's good but there has to be a desire to communicate effectively which is often missing. And in that case no amount of flexibility will suffice. But if that desire is there, experience and practice make better. Mistakes can be made. Misunderstandings can be corrected. People learn.




This struck accord, in a lot of situations people don't seem to have that desire to communicate effectively, just to be heard or agreed with or sorts. Like the aggressive guy from the start of this thread had on numerous occasions talked himself into a rage without input from anyone. He just riled himself up a lot and much of what I or anyone else said was summarily dismissed as we didn't understand that, 'all women are out to get men' sort of stuff.

It's nice to see someone trying to communicate effectively, with acknowledgement of inputs from others and sometimes a recognition of change.


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OfflineOutsideOfMyMind
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly] * 1
    #28363970 - 06/18/23 02:59 AM (7 months, 7 days ago)

Communication is only hard because people live in fear of what someone will think of them if they open up and communicate their feelings. People are too judgemental nowadays in order to speak their truths.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
    #28363988 - 06/18/23 03:32 AM (7 months, 7 days ago)

Well, the world ain't flat. It is difficult to accept constructive criticism or to change ones perspective upon being presented with new information, let alone to understand said information.

The way I see it being wrong is fine, because ignorance just means not knowing and ignorance is not so much a shame as being unwilling to learn. 


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28364245 - 06/18/23 10:50 AM (7 months, 7 days ago)

Should we feel deep compassion for "ignorant" people who lack the will to learn?

“A man can do what he wills, but cannot will what he wills.”

Arthur Schopenhauer


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #28364251 - 06/18/23 11:03 AM (7 months, 7 days ago)

Why not show some compassion for others?  Especially the ignorant, self included ~ partly because... who's not in included in that boat?  Ha.  It's sort of kinda all inclusive, gnome saying?

So the whole- rescind one's compassion towards another if they're lacking "the will" to learn- idk where to start with that. :picard: 

For one, How would or could you even ever know someone lacks the will to learn?  Also, why chalk it up to "will"- of all things?  :confused:


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Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (06/18/23 11:45 AM)


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #28364258 - 06/18/23 11:08 AM (7 months, 7 days ago)

I was referring to

Quote:

sudly said:

. . . as being unwilling to learn. 




Doesn't being unwilling to learn mean one lacks the will to learn?

I feel they are equivalent - but am willing to consider other perspectives.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #28364267 - 06/18/23 11:15 AM (7 months, 7 days ago)

will is overrated,
yes feel compassion


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #28364272 - 06/18/23 11:18 AM (7 months, 7 days ago)

You amended your post and I'd like to reply to one other thing

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:

For one, How do you know someone lacks the will to learn?  Also, why chalk it up to "will"- of all things?  :confused:




"willful ignorance" is a very trendy topic these days

I'm not totally sure how I feel about it, but this idea has become popular.  So I'm just trying to follow the concept down the rabbit hole.  Again, I was replying to the "willfull" comment - trying to parse it out a bit.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28364292 - 06/18/23 11:42 AM (7 months, 7 days ago)

I suppose that depends. 

Specifically wrt learning...
For instance- If I lack the will to learn Bhutanese (aka Dzongkha) - that does not necessarily also mean I'm unwilling to learn new languages altogether now does it? 
Perhaps at the time I'm simply too busy with other things, my plate is full, and I know better than to take on more than I can handle. 


Rather than saying I'm unwilling to learn or lack the will to learn, it tracks to say I'm currently not ready & able to learn Bhutanese.

Also, for the sake of clarity & before going any further how about let's see if we are or aren't working with the same'ish definition of "Will" so we can be on the same page and work from there?

(/*source) Oxford’s English dictionaries

Quote:

(noun) Will : the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action.
eg. "she has an iron will"

Similar:
determination, firmness of purpose, fixity of purpose, will power, strength of character, resolution, resolve, resoluteness, purposefulness, single-mindedness, drive, commitment, dedication, doggedness, tenacity, tenaciousness, staying power, backbone, spine
self-control, self-restraint, self-discipline, self-mastery, volition, Sitzfleisch, stickability, stick-to-itiveness, perseveration, choice, option, decision, discretion, prerogative.


Will: control deliberately exerted to do something or to restrain one's own impulses.
eg. "a stupendous effort of will"

Will: a deliberate or fixed desire or intention.
eg. "Jane had not wanted them to stay against their will"




Either way, I'm thinking maybe using another word other than "will" would serve better.
So..if you had to...how would you rephrase/rewrite the question in question? :wink::strokebeard:


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Edited by The Blind Ass (06/18/23 11:50 AM)


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28364302 - 06/18/23 11:58 AM (7 months, 7 days ago)

People who promote the idea of "willful ignorance" seem to be attracted to the term because it implies that some people make a choice to be stupid.  A person who chooses to be stupid is much worse than a person who lacks brain cells or has a mental disorder.  The psychological motivation for this perspective is to demean - the #1 hobby of humans these days.

We're using the term "will" in a similar way - decisions & choices


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28364308 - 06/18/23 12:05 PM (7 months, 7 days ago)

is it not more a habit of being stupid than a will to stoopidity?
and a lack of interest in learning Balinese rather than the lack of will to learn Balinese.

the word will is confusing and should be stricken from our usage except in the case of guessing what will come next.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28364337 - 06/18/23 12:34 PM (7 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Should we feel deep compassion for "ignorant" people who lack the will to learn?

“A man can do what he wills, but cannot will what he wills.”

Arthur Schopenhauer




I find that quote agreeable.

I think deep compassion in general is kind of a weight of the world scenario. Sometimes best to just live and let live without judgement. From another perspective compassion is a type of suffering and like will we do not choose to have or not have it. In so much as one might see that the suffering does no good I would suggest letting it go.

Compassion also requires understanding which is often not accessible. To feel another's pain in such a state is just sad and confused.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28364395 - 06/18/23 01:33 PM (7 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Specifically wrt learning...
For instance- If I lack the will to learn Bhutanese (aka Dzongkha) - that does not necessarily also mean I'm unwilling to learn new languages altogether now does it?




:thumbup:

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
I was referring to

Quote:

sudly said:

. . . as being unwilling to learn. 




Doesn't being unwilling to learn mean one lacks the will to learn?

I feel they are equivalent - but am willing to consider other perspectives.




I think it's more specific than not having a will to learn, I think it's not wanting to known or try to learn specifics, like how the Earth is round. Like being in denial in the face of new evidence because such information doesn't align with personal values, preferences or feelings.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Communication is one of the hardest things that you can do. [Re: sudly]
    #28364475 - 06/18/23 02:52 PM (7 months, 7 days ago)

Yes, most often bias is at work.

I do wonder with flat Earthers if there's an intelligence deficit at play.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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