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 system32
Student of nature
 
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 275
Loc: Misty Welsh mountains
Last seen: 3 months, 22 days
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 Porcini Mushrooms & Mycorrhizal relationships 
#28282032 - 04/17/23 12:31 PM (11 months, 23 days ago) |
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Hi all,
Reading up online about some of the more sought after mushrooms and what makes them so prolific.
Often it seems to be that, unlike alot of what's grown on here. These mushrooms have a relationship with trees or flora species. Hence ruling out a conventional jar and rice cultivator armed with a plastic box.
In a video I watched, someone explained that there's basically three factors for Mycorrhizal relationships. One is the mycelium/the mushroom culture, the second is the tree and the third is not known. E.g It could be a bacterium science doesn't know about yet.
I'd imagine this is half the battle with mushrooms like the liberty cap being so temperamental even in nature.
My question really is this; has anyone had luck on here with any type of Mycorrhizal fungi? With newer or alternative methods..
Edited by system32 (04/17/23 12:32 PM)
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chumbatumba
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Registered: 01/17/21
Posts: 23
Last seen: 10 months, 29 days
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 Re: Porcini Mushrooms & Mycorrhizal relationships [Re: system32]
#28284768 - 04/19/23 03:27 AM (11 months, 22 days ago) |
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It's so bloody easy.
But you will not like my answer.
Make a soil as mix of vermiculite and perlite.
Make spore print of porcini.
Inject water with spores into your mix and plant pine trees or others.
It will take 2-4 months to form mycorrhiza.
Even after bloody 2 months you will not see !!!Anything!!!. Seriously.
To see something you need microscope.
Just see my pictures. I've made using China made ultra cheap microscope.
And will not see any mushroom after 1 year and even after 2 years.
Some people says pine tree should be at least 15 years old. No jokes.
Don't expect to see anything like when you grow shrooms.
And you now what is drama? After you plant your tree outside in real soil the porcini highly likely will die. The end. You can verify it by digging it out and look in microscope. Because you need sandy or rocky soil. With good drainage.
Don't expect spores of porcini to germinate on agar. Most likely they will not. You can clone porcini on agar but you will cry because it will grow so slow. And what to do next with this agar plate? Nothing really.
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system32
Student of nature
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 275
Loc: Misty Welsh mountains
Last seen: 3 months, 22 days
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Re: Porcini Mushrooms & Mycorrhizal relationships [Re: chumbatumba]
#28285415 - 04/19/23 01:33 PM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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What if I told you... I had a plantation of pine trees, scots pine and black pine, ranging from 2-10 years old, just coincidentally.
Without giving too much away. What I'm involved with in the real world. They give them away at trade fairs I'm involved in..
I do love your explanation and the very way you explained... you might as well go tie knots in water instead. :-D of trying to break the Porcini paradox.
Surprised some Jedi hasn't found a tek that simulates the symbiotic relationship with plant roots yet. There's time 
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chumbatumba
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Registered: 01/17/21
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Re: Porcini Mushrooms & Mycorrhizal relationships [Re: system32]
#28285505 - 04/19/23 02:23 PM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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Very likely your pine tree already have association with some fungi already so your attempt may fail. Some fungi does not produce mushrooms like we know. And some even in soil like truffles.
According to publications forest fire may kill that fungi. But I'm sure you don't want it. Do you?
Other thing that kills fungi is green mold and fertilizer.
So if you want some kind of success you have to exterminate all existent fungi associated with your trees. And after spore slurry and it gets easier.
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system32
Student of nature
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 275
Loc: Misty Welsh mountains
Last seen: 3 months, 22 days
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Re: Porcini Mushrooms & Mycorrhizal relationships [Re: chumbatumba]
#28286482 - 04/20/23 08:10 AM (11 months, 21 days ago) |
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So essentially the Porcini family need to order a hit on the other mycelium families to establish dominance. All sounds rather Italian at this point.
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kedi
people are strange
Registered: 01/14/23
Posts: 48
Last seen: 9 months, 24 days
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Re: Porcini Mushrooms & Mycorrhizal relationships [Re: system32]
#28291640 - 04/23/23 03:24 PM (11 months, 17 days ago) |
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when i go for walks in the forest i bring spore baths with me... dunno if it works, but i like guessing the habitats
Edited by kedi (04/23/23 03:30 PM)
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 CreonAntigone
Stranger
Registered: 05/30/21
Posts: 2,933
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Re: Porcini Mushrooms & Mycorrhizal relationships [Re: chumbatumba]
#28330327 - 05/22/23 05:48 PM (10 months, 19 days ago) |
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Chumbatumba is right that it takes a long time to see the mychorhizae. The things he says about their growth are true: clones grow slow on agar and in the field mycorhizae can take years to form. However, just because he hasn't seen success, it doesn't mean success is impossible.
Chumbatumba, the method you describe, introducing spores to plants in a controlled environment, is good. I think maybe you need to spend more time in the lab with your plants before planting them, however. Maybe 4 months of growth is not enough. It could be adviseable to grow a plant in controlled conditions for 1-2 years and repeatedly introduce spores and culutres; only plant it once it is vigorous and can stand on its own.
As for you not being able to see the mychorizae under the tree anymore after planting, this is not a sign that it is dead, as it could have spread out to other trees or the surrounding soil. Or it may have been outcompeted. But with one tree it wouldn't be surprising not to get mushrooms... one would want to plant a wide array of cultivated saplings, a little forest, sprayed with the spores or a culture.
Or an alternative technique can be inoculating mature trees. That will be harder and one will need a lot more inoculant. To do that, I'd recommend starting a clone on agar then spreading it to LC and growing it out in large fermenters. One could spray some of the LC with a hose into the canopy of mature trees.
Quote:
chumbatumba said:
Very likely your pine tree already have association with some fungi already so your attempt may fail. Some fungi does not produce mushrooms like we know. And some even in soil like truffles.
According to publications forest fire may kill that fungi. But I'm sure you don't want it. Do you?
Other thing that kills fungi is green mold and fertilizer.
So if you want some kind of success you have to exterminate all existent fungi associated with your trees. And after spore slurry and it gets easier.
It may not be neccesary as porcini might be symbiotic with some of the existing fungi, too. Or two fungi that don't get alone can start to work together. There are many possibilities. A completely one-species-dominated mycorhrrizae is not the only one possible.
One could even introduce two mychorizal species at the same time, and I think it would be more likely to succeed and not less.
Edited by CreonAntigone (05/22/23 06:10 PM)
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Bonita1Flakes
Registered: 05/07/23
Posts: 23
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Re: Porcini Mushrooms & Mycorrhizal relationships [Re: system32]
#28351677 - 06/08/23 06:34 AM (10 months, 3 days ago) |
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I heard its impossible to grow. Then saw a guy liquid culture several dried species successfully.
2 weeks later I can't believe it but dried porcini soaked in hydrogen peroxide is growing. There was a blue spot which I dug out. Found steps, recipe, temperature to grow indoors also. Just started growing mushrooms for 4 weeks ago
Boletaceae fungus and application thereof (patent)
50% of dried porcinis in Italy are imported from Yunnan, China
Agar mix
PDA enriched liquid culture medium comprises a C source, an N source and a growth factor;
the C source is glucose, sucrose or fructose, the N source is soybean peptone, yeast extract powder or beef extract, and the growth factor is vitamin B1, vitamin B2 or inositol.
Spawn mix
78% of miscellaneous wood chips, 20% of wheat bran, 1% of corn flour and 1% of light calcium carbonate
Liquid culture mix
20g of glucose
2g of soybean peptone
200g of potato and KH 2 PO 4 1g、
MgSO 4 0.5g
vitamin B 1 10mg
1000mL of water, pH 6.5.
Substrate mix
30% of mixed wood dust
35% of cotton seed shell
30% of wheat bran
4% of corn flour
1% of light calcium carbonate.
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CreonAntigone
Stranger
Registered: 05/30/21
Posts: 2,933
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Re: Porcini Mushrooms & Mycorrhizal relationships [Re: Bonita1Flakes]
#28353583 - 06/09/23 06:22 PM (10 months, 1 day ago) |
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It was never a question of if they'd grow on agar. Clones of mycorrhizal species can grow on agar, they just won't start from spores. The issue is whether can you do anything with that liquid culture or if it will just become useless liquid.
The growing challenge is if they can be induced to reach the fruiting stage - requiring soil, trees and lots of open space, in a special repeated relationship. They won't grow in a coir monotub, they need trees.
Many mycorrhizal species such as chanterelle CAN be cultivated, but it takes a long time and a unique method. Truffles are mycorrhizal and cultivated widely, but please allow 4-20 years for first fruit... Not exaggerating.
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Glomus
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Registered: 06/24/23
Posts: 81
Last seen: 9 months, 5 days
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Re: Porcini Mushrooms & Mycorrhizal relationships [Re: system32]
#28374597 - 06/25/23 09:19 PM (9 months, 16 days ago) |
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Yes I have had wild success with mycorrhizae fungi with cannabis cultivation, using specific inoculant blends that contain bacterial strains. Im my research of some of the added beneficial bacteria, they seem to have an antibiotic or suppressive effect on the existing established bacterias present in the soil thus creating an ideal environment for the the mycorrhizae to actually take hold on the root system and possibly some of the other synchronistic bacterias to establish as well. However, this seems to happen more so and observed more easily with newly propagated plants, versus established trees that may already have an indigenous mycorrhizae infecting its roots. Glomus interaratices and others similar, have the most promise and research as a strong mycorrhizae inoculant. Depending on how dependant a certain type of plant is to the mycorrhizae relationship.
The best time to inoc a plant is as early as possible. Bacteria plays a major role in the rhizosphere of the plants roots, which is only a few millimeters outside the actual root. Interestingly enough, the plant is what dictates this diversity of microbes thru a system of chemicals that it releases from its root system, which depending on the life cycle of the plant can attract or release different types of bacteria in the rhizosphere.
But anyway, I'd imagine there is a strong relationship with fungi and bacteria as well outside of just mycorrhizae and would like to know more about beneficial bacteria and how it can be used in mushroom cultivation. Some interesting strains of microbes might be Azospirillum, rhizomorphs, and pseudomonas strains.
Edited by Glomus (06/25/23 09:24 PM)
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