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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: Rahz]
#28328184 - 05/20/23 11:14 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: ...that being a virtuous person will generally bring happiness along with it. There are conditions they seek to avoid, yet the details provides reason for it. Anger, greed and hatred are considered lusts for instance.
I agree that there is a great value in virtue but happiness is elusive. I also agree that greed and hatred are awful, but anger can be very constructive. Otherwise the Vulcan way and the stoic way are encumbered by too much certainty.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: Rahz] 1
#28329385 - 05/22/23 12:10 AM (8 months, 3 days ago) |
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If virtue is personal value and boundaries, they are fought to great value through pain, joy, success, failure, suffering, care, hope, desire, longing, loss, lust and love etc.
A gathering of the silver linings of failure and success, accumulating into progress and perspective.
To develop an aptitude for facing what are perceived as confrontational situations with a calm and understanding demeanour. To grow through experience, muscle memories, and reminiscent reflection.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: sudly]
#28329464 - 05/22/23 02:51 AM (8 months, 3 days ago) |
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right, and neither stoicism nor asceticism is needed for that (also I am putting yoga and breath following in as a subset of muscle memory (aka practice))
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: redgreenvines]
#28329467 - 05/22/23 02:56 AM (8 months, 3 days ago) |
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Do you think there is an alternative or relative philosophy or do I have to add ism to a made up word..
Alilbitofeverythingism?
Sunism?
I have seriously contemplated visiting a comic convention in Praise the Sun robes shining light upon the Sun, but to no end, no worship, just recognition that life would be different without the Sun.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: sudly] 1
#28329482 - 05/22/23 04:13 AM (8 months, 3 days ago) |
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being-ism
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#28329563 - 05/22/23 06:37 AM (8 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
To develop an aptitude for facing what are perceived as confrontational situations with a calm and understanding demeanour.
That's basically the gist of what Stoicism is. Remember, these philosophies came about thousands of years ago with not a lot before. They are just perspectives on how to get to the same place. Contrast with Epicureanism and Hedonism. Is it the values that lead to happiness, and thus pleasure? Is it pleasure itself that leads to values/happiness? Or moderation of pleasure, seeing happiness as the primary function which leads to a pleasurable life of values?
This idea of Stoicism as being no fun is the same as the idea that Hedonists were running around drunk and having lots of sex. Caricatures for the modern world which have little value when trying to understand the philosophies from which they came.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: sudly]
#28329565 - 05/22/23 06:41 AM (8 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: If virtue is personal value and boundaries, they are fought to great value through pain, joy, success, failure, suffering, care, hope, desire, longing, loss, lust and love etc.
A gathering of the silver linings of failure and success, accumulating into progress and perspective.
To develop an aptitude for facing what are perceived as confrontational situations with a calm and understanding demeanour. To grow through experience, muscle memories, and reminiscent reflection.
There's a good Wikipedia article on Stoicism with a list of virtues and anti-virtues. While some anti-virtues (like anger) might be debatable most of them are reasonably things one would do well to avoid, or at least not be proud of expressing.
I guess it would be a good place to consider the merits of moral relativism vs something a little more fundamental to the human experience.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: Rahz]
#28330149 - 05/22/23 03:32 PM (8 months, 2 days ago) |
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Choking can be a virtue in the right circumstances.
I doubt our virtues are the same, but not that they can be made the same.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: sudly]
#28330213 - 05/22/23 04:14 PM (8 months, 2 days ago) |
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I'd say choking isn't a virtue, but one's virtues might guide a person into choking.
Fortitude/courage - Is one willing to grapple to a choke?
Prudence/temperance - Is it necessary to choke given the circumstances and potential consequences?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: Rahz]
#28330231 - 05/22/23 04:23 PM (8 months, 2 days ago) |
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Choking can be within ones personal boundaries, and have personal value through intimate relations.
Choking can be within ones virtue in an act of self defense or kink.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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