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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong?
#28325623 - 05/18/23 10:52 PM (8 months, 6 days ago) |
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Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong?
Some follow stoic readings, and some listen to ascetic practice without reverence to monasticism.
I want to try and uncover and discuss what differentiates the ascetic practices as I understand them, from stoic practices in general.
To see if, how and why they relate.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: sudly]
#28325643 - 05/18/23 11:15 PM (8 months, 6 days ago) |
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Being different often implies being off-grid. It is better however to find one's own way than to copy ascetic ideas of the past. The purpose is transcending one's self Which can be achieved in yoga without full retreat. I wish to add that change is gradual either way, and being a monk can be very egoic.
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Rahz
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: redgreenvines]
#28325845 - 05/19/23 06:26 AM (8 months, 6 days ago) |
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Stoicism seems synonymous with the middle way to me. The Buddha as an ascetic, almost dying from it, and then converting to a stoic path is a very powerful image which paints asceticism as a self torturous event.
Then again, most ascetics aren't going to starve themselves to death in a bid for enlightenment. At the same time the Buddha story portrays asceticism as a phase rather than simply a dead end. A necessary step on the road to stoicism.
Ascetics seem ubiquitous to religion yet also never a primary path. Meant for the few who practice it as a personal decision. Stoicism in contrast is an ideal more accessible to the common person, yet still one which requires dedication.
Perhaps The Buddha having been born into an easy life needed the ascetic phase to condition himself to a more stoic frame of mind. He did spend about 30 years as a pampered rich boy.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Buster_Brown
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: redgreenvines]
#28325851 - 05/19/23 06:35 AM (8 months, 6 days ago) |
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I admire the ability to amuse yourself with meditation instead of needing a constant source of distraction in the way of novels etc.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: Buster_Brown]
#28325876 - 05/19/23 07:03 AM (8 months, 6 days ago) |
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oddly apt
although, nevermind
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Edited by redgreenvines (05/19/23 07:04 AM)
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Buster_Brown
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: redgreenvines]
#28326039 - 05/19/23 09:27 AM (8 months, 6 days ago) |
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It's gotta be more desirable than an opiate addiction..?
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: Buster_Brown]
#28326722 - 05/19/23 07:42 PM (8 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
Buster_Brown said: It's gotta be more desirable than an opiate addiction..?
Opiates grow on trees..
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WhiskeyClone
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: sudly]
#28326911 - 05/19/23 10:41 PM (8 months, 5 days ago) |
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They're approaching the same problem (attachment and behavior driven by it) from different angles. Stoics don't need to be ascetics.
I think of ascetic meaning denying desires. Avoiding comfort and pleasure to weaken the attachment to it.
In Stoicism they're concerned with doing the rational thing regardless of what the passions say, embracing the experience of it.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: Rahz]
#28327148 - 05/20/23 05:46 AM (8 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: Stoicism seems synonymous with the middle way to me. The Buddha as an ascetic, almost dying from it, and then converting to a stoic path is a very powerful image which paints asceticism as a self torturous event.
Then again, most ascetics aren't going to starve themselves to death in a bid for enlightenment. At the same time the Buddha story portrays asceticism as a phase rather than simply a dead end. A necessary step on the road to stoicism.
Ascetics seem ubiquitous to religion yet also never a primary path. Meant for the few who practice it as a personal decision. Stoicism in contrast is an ideal more accessible to the common person, yet still one which requires dedication.
Perhaps The Buddha having been born into an easy life needed the ascetic phase to condition himself to a more stoic frame of mind. He did spend about 30 years as a pampered rich boy.
I only improvise my asceticism for favourable routines.
I still indulge in plenty of lifes pleasures.
Among a reflexive alternative to sugary beverages, I still partake in weekly roasts with plenty of taters, even the sweet ones that may make use leak forth a vibrant yellow in overabundance.
Spiritually I wear a skeptic hat and find neutral balance in gratitude for the Sun, because life without it would be different.
I respect boundaries, and appreciate eluiqant understandings and expressions of woo woo context.
I like the idea of learning to live with it. Not succumbing to it.
Recognising jealousy and fomo has been highly beneficial.
I seem to appreciate shameless interactions.
And my independence is a growing experience.
Which brings me to ask, what is it when it's the journey, not the destination?
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
Edited by sudly (05/20/23 06:39 AM)
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Rahz
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: sudly]
#28327406 - 05/20/23 10:11 AM (8 months, 5 days ago) |
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A man once said, if I were not a conqueror of the world I would be Oscar the grouch. A person with ambition can not easily give it up, but in that case a man with great ambition saw value in having none, hypothetically. It is what it is.
I like to work hard so I can afford an abundance of material meat and potatoes, yet I have no strong ambitions of destination. I think most people aren't prone to be Alexander or Diogenes. Somewhere in the middle.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: Rahz] 1
#28327468 - 05/20/23 11:11 AM (8 months, 5 days ago) |
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Ascetics have nothing to do with people and what people normally do, and in this way they can learn to be comfortable with themselves and their relationship with the infinite; but when transplanted back into society, often they are not able to feel comfortable in their own skin as their adaptations to living alone are quite limited.
One has to learn to face both the familiar and the unfamiliar with a reserve of calm and faith in one's own ability to persevere.
The stoics persevere even when they are not comfortable in their own skin, and may encounter just as much suffering when operating in social situations as ascetics. In that way they are the same.
One needs the ability to operate with dignity and be comfortable in one's own skin, and to fix it skillfully, neither asceticism nor stoicism address this.
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Rahz
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: redgreenvines]
#28327495 - 05/20/23 11:41 AM (8 months, 5 days ago) |
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I don't assume this reply was specific to my reply, but should point out that Diogenes was a Cynic (which led into Stoicism) but who's practice was extreme enough to conjure Asceticism in some respects. It was just a comment on journey/destination.
Anyway, what makes you say Stoicism doesn't address the ability to operate with dignity and be comfortable in one's skin socially? Isn't that a big part of Stoicism?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: Rahz]
#28327697 - 05/20/23 03:29 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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It's the way Stoics seem uncomfortable, sour faced, and stuff, just from my observation.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: Rahz]
#28327726 - 05/20/23 03:54 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: A man once said, if I were not a conqueror of the world I would be Oscar the grouch. A person with ambition can not easily give it up, but in that case a man with great ambition saw value in having none, hypothetically. It is what it is.
I like to work hard so I can afford an abundance of material meat and potatoes, yet I have no strong ambitions of destination. I think most people aren't prone to be Alexander or Diogenes. Somewhere in the middle.
I don't expect to conquer the world, I think I am adaptable, and I take joy in personal responsibility and learning from mistakes.
I think aspirations can be beneficial.
I like reward for my efforts, and being afforded the opportunity to make my own waves and decisions in life.
I don't want to live in a barrel.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Rahz
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: redgreenvines]
#28327758 - 05/20/23 04:15 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: It's the way Stoics seem uncomfortable, sour faced, and stuff, just from my observation.
Haha, well if those Stoics you've observed are sour faced they're not being stoic.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: Rahz]
#28327780 - 05/20/23 04:36 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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How do their faces appear to you?
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Rahz
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: redgreenvines]
#28327860 - 05/20/23 05:37 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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I think a stereotypical "stoic face" is a calm face without emotion rather than simply poorly hidden emotion. But in either case there could be caricature at play, the worth of which is debatable.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: Rahz]
#28328038 - 05/20/23 08:13 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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Suppression of emotions instead of understanding them and owning them seems less reasonable and less honest to me.
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Rahz
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: redgreenvines]
#28328093 - 05/20/23 08:58 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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That's a false dichotomy. Stoics weren't concerned with suppressing emotions but rather in living an ethical life. One does not need to seek pleasure or avoid pain to reach happiness, but rather that being a virtuous person will generally bring happiness along with it. There are conditions they seek to avoid, yet the details provides reason for it. Anger, greed and hatred are considered lusts for instance.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: Rahz]
#28328107 - 05/20/23 09:21 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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Everything in moderation.
And I take responsibility for my own emotions like anger or the likes, and I remind myself of how two different people can have two different reactions to the same comment we make.
I don't think that others make me angry, I think I recognise that I can express myself differently to how I may truly feel at a given moment in time.
I can be in a professional setting, or a casual setting etc.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
Edited by sudly (05/20/23 09:27 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: Rahz]
#28328184 - 05/20/23 11:14 PM (8 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: ...that being a virtuous person will generally bring happiness along with it. There are conditions they seek to avoid, yet the details provides reason for it. Anger, greed and hatred are considered lusts for instance.
I agree that there is a great value in virtue but happiness is elusive. I also agree that greed and hatred are awful, but anger can be very constructive. Otherwise the Vulcan way and the stoic way are encumbered by too much certainty.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: Rahz] 1
#28329385 - 05/22/23 12:10 AM (8 months, 3 days ago) |
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If virtue is personal value and boundaries, they are fought to great value through pain, joy, success, failure, suffering, care, hope, desire, longing, loss, lust and love etc.
A gathering of the silver linings of failure and success, accumulating into progress and perspective.
To develop an aptitude for facing what are perceived as confrontational situations with a calm and understanding demeanour. To grow through experience, muscle memories, and reminiscent reflection.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: sudly]
#28329464 - 05/22/23 02:51 AM (8 months, 3 days ago) |
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right, and neither stoicism nor asceticism is needed for that (also I am putting yoga and breath following in as a subset of muscle memory (aka practice))
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: redgreenvines]
#28329467 - 05/22/23 02:56 AM (8 months, 3 days ago) |
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Do you think there is an alternative or relative philosophy or do I have to add ism to a made up word..
Alilbitofeverythingism?
Sunism?
I have seriously contemplated visiting a comic convention in Praise the Sun robes shining light upon the Sun, but to no end, no worship, just recognition that life would be different without the Sun.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: sudly] 1
#28329482 - 05/22/23 04:13 AM (8 months, 3 days ago) |
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being-ism
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Rahz
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#28329563 - 05/22/23 06:37 AM (8 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
To develop an aptitude for facing what are perceived as confrontational situations with a calm and understanding demeanour.
That's basically the gist of what Stoicism is. Remember, these philosophies came about thousands of years ago with not a lot before. They are just perspectives on how to get to the same place. Contrast with Epicureanism and Hedonism. Is it the values that lead to happiness, and thus pleasure? Is it pleasure itself that leads to values/happiness? Or moderation of pleasure, seeing happiness as the primary function which leads to a pleasurable life of values?
This idea of Stoicism as being no fun is the same as the idea that Hedonists were running around drunk and having lots of sex. Caricatures for the modern world which have little value when trying to understand the philosophies from which they came.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Rahz
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: sudly]
#28329565 - 05/22/23 06:41 AM (8 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: If virtue is personal value and boundaries, they are fought to great value through pain, joy, success, failure, suffering, care, hope, desire, longing, loss, lust and love etc.
A gathering of the silver linings of failure and success, accumulating into progress and perspective.
To develop an aptitude for facing what are perceived as confrontational situations with a calm and understanding demeanour. To grow through experience, muscle memories, and reminiscent reflection.
There's a good Wikipedia article on Stoicism with a list of virtues and anti-virtues. While some anti-virtues (like anger) might be debatable most of them are reasonably things one would do well to avoid, or at least not be proud of expressing.
I guess it would be a good place to consider the merits of moral relativism vs something a little more fundamental to the human experience.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: Rahz]
#28330149 - 05/22/23 03:32 PM (8 months, 2 days ago) |
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Choking can be a virtue in the right circumstances.
I doubt our virtues are the same, but not that they can be made the same.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Rahz
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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: sudly]
#28330213 - 05/22/23 04:14 PM (8 months, 2 days ago) |
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I'd say choking isn't a virtue, but one's virtues might guide a person into choking.
Fortitude/courage - Is one willing to grapple to a choke?
Prudence/temperance - Is it necessary to choke given the circumstances and potential consequences?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Is the stoic-asceticism relation strong? [Re: Rahz]
#28330231 - 05/22/23 04:23 PM (8 months, 2 days ago) |
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Choking can be within ones personal boundaries, and have personal value through intimate relations.
Choking can be within ones virtue in an act of self defense or kink.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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