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morrowasted
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Why alcohol is the most unique drug
#28306485 - 05/04/23 01:27 PM (8 months, 20 days ago) |
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Ice9
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Re: Why alcohol is the most unique drug [Re: morrowasted] 1
#28309124 - 05/06/23 01:01 PM (8 months, 18 days ago) |
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Uh, that does not seem correct. Alcohol does not "dilute water with more hydrogens" whatever that is actually supposed to mean. Alcohol does interact with receptors. Alcohol works on GABAA receptors. That whole post is total nonsense and I hope you were under the influence of alcohol when you posted it.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2442438/
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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morrowasted
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Re: Why alcohol is the most unique drug [Re: Ice9]
#28309448 - 05/06/23 06:07 PM (8 months, 18 days ago) |
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Think again
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morrowasted
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Re: Why alcohol is the most unique drug [Re: morrowasted]
#28311167 - 05/08/23 09:01 AM (8 months, 16 days ago) |
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Ice9, if gaba a action were 'the' mechanism of action, the effect of ethanol would be essentially the same as that of Xanax.
Gaba a activation occurs as a downstream effect of this alteration in membrane permeability I described that is due to h2o (organic medium) dilution
By changing the membrane permeability, the extracellular charge increases as positively charged ions move into it
This would cause a generalized seizure when the extracellular charge exceeds the intracellular charge
BUT
The brain RESPONDS by activating gaba a to suppress interneural communication, which stops the seizure from occuring.
If you look into the literature you'll find that serotonin, dopamine etc are also 'activated' by ethanol, to a lesser extent, simply because they play less of a role in inhibiting interneural signal transmission than gaba a
When you understand things this way you can see that seizures from alcohol wd actually result from the reversal of this membrane permeability, to which your brain had subjected allostatic mechanisms over time. One of those mechanisms involves changes in gaba a receptor/dentrite density
Thanks for contributing though. I know you think you have it figured out, until last week I also believed gaba a activation was the primary mechanism of action for ethanol. Flaming is not necessary though. Every utterance is literally non-sense.
Edited by morrowasted (05/08/23 09:08 AM)
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morrowasted
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Re: Why alcohol is the most unique drug [Re: morrowasted]
#28311176 - 05/08/23 09:13 AM (8 months, 16 days ago) |
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And no I wasn't drunk. My body does not accept it anymore. Even one single beer will immediately come right back up. this change happened suddenly at the same time I understood the OP, and once again you would not believe me if I told you why/how. If I had been drunk I would have continued to mistakenly believe that the mechanism of action of alcohol is what you posted
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jack_straw2208
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Re: Why alcohol is the most unique drug [Re: morrowasted]
#28311198 - 05/08/23 09:33 AM (8 months, 16 days ago) |
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-------------------- If you can’t tell what you desperately need, it’s probably sleep.
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Ice9
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Re: Why alcohol is the most unique drug [Re: morrowasted]
#28318287 - 05/13/23 12:17 PM (8 months, 11 days ago) |
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1). Drugs that have the same type of activity at the same receptors do not always have identical effects. Even within the same class of chemicals effects can differ.
Just in GABAA receptor agonist of the benzodiazepune class you have different effects, including sedation, anti-convulsant, anxiolytic etc. These differences are vastly more pronounced when drugs of different classes are taken into account. Example would be GHB and Benzos for GABAA agonism. Here we see that GHB is much more akin to ethanol in its effects. As compared to Benzos, both ethanol and GHB have activity at a much larger range of receptors.
2)GABA agonism does not occur as a downstream effect of permeability changes. Ethanol binds allosterically to the GABAA receptor. This binding increases membrane polarization and decreased opening of voltage sensitive ion channels. Membrane permeability changes are this the result of receptor binding. This is, in fact, the base mechanism of action of drugs that bind to trans-membrane protein coupled receptors such as GPCRs (which GABA is a type)
3) The whole portion of you original post with the vaguely chemically sounding "increase hydrogens" is pure nonsense. It means nothing, explains nothing, and describes nothing.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
Edited by Ice9 (05/13/23 12:30 PM)
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CapSlinger


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Re: Why alcohol is the most unique drug [Re: Ice9]
#28318457 - 05/13/23 03:50 PM (8 months, 11 days ago) |
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morrowasted
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Re: Why alcohol is the most unique drug [Re: CapSlinger]
#28318608 - 05/13/23 06:23 PM (8 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
The whole portion of you original post with the vaguely chemically sounding "increase hydrogens" is pure nonsense. It means nothing, explains nothing, and describes nothing.
I'm a little confused on what the concept of pH is if increasing the percentage of hydrogens in a solution 'means nothing', but you're probably right, I was off in lala land for a few days
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Ice9
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Re: Why alcohol is the most unique drug [Re: morrowasted]
#28319474 - 05/14/23 11:58 AM (8 months, 10 days ago) |
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The snippet you posted said the number of hydrogens where increasing, not the concentration of hydrogen ions. Simple fact, the number of hydrogens in a water and ethanol mixture doesn't change. Further, pH of an aqueous system is measured by the hydronium ion concentration.
Also, ethanol has a pKa 16.0, so at physiological pH of 7.35 - 7.45.
Following the equation of

we can rearrange to

What this equation tells us is that when pH = pKa the ratio of dissociation is 1 (50% dissociated and 50% not)
So to have ethanol contribute 50% of its acidic hydrogen you would need a pH of 16. Using the same calculation, we can see that if the pH is 1 larger than pKa (for ethanol this would be pH of 17, then ethanol would be 90% in the dissociate A- state. The ratio changes the same way when pH is less than, with a difference of -1 meaning 90% in the AH state. Using these number to calculate, we can see that at physiological pH the percent of ethanol that is undissociated is 99.84%. This is exactly what one would expect as alcohols are very very weakly acidic.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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Ice9
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Re: Why alcohol is the most unique drug [Re: Ice9]
#28319480 - 05/14/23 12:04 PM (8 months, 10 days ago) |
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"AEE acts by diluting H2O with more hydrogens" is pure nonsense. Forget the fact that blood serum and interstitial fluids have certain amount of buffer capacity, so pH does not change, so there are not "more hydrogens"

just read the off in "la la land", hope it was just drugs and nothing serious
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
Edited by Ice9 (05/14/23 12:06 PM)
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morrowasted
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Re: Why alcohol is the most unique drug [Re: Ice9]
#28319509 - 05/14/23 12:35 PM (8 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
the concentration of hydrogen ions. Simple fact, the number of hydrogens in a water and ethanol mixture doesn't change
Something changes
Think about it this way. It doesn't dilute the water. It dilutes the SpaceTime that contains the water
Mix normal saline that is warmer than your body temp and ethanol in a closed container and shake it. hell you don't even really need to shake it just leave it. It will shake itself, just more slowly
Tell me what happens and tell me why
Is the lid not a membrane? Is the membrane not separating? Does the separation not analogized to a change in permeability? On this analogy question would not be exchange of ions between what was the inside of the container and the outside of the container merely be a reflection of this change in permeability rather than its cause? Is there even a difference? Why or why not?
Thanks.
Do you know more about math than I do but I think you might be getting a little too caught up in it and failing to see a true, if Unimportant/useless bigger picture
The pharmacodynamics of ethanol can be described in terms of receptor binding and ion channels
That's missing the point that I think I was trying to make when yes I was off in la la land because of dmt
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