Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]
Anonymous

libertarian socialism
    #2831049 - 06/26/04 02:07 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

"libertarian socialism" is not a form of libertarianism, but socialism. anyone who has the slightest grip on grammar knows this from simply reading the term. the word "libertarian" is used as an adjective to describe the sort of socialism that the term refers to.

my question is: what kind of socialism can be accurately described as libertarian socialism? what kinds cannot?

Edited by mushmaster (06/26/04 02:15 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2831093 - 06/26/04 02:26 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

On the other hand...

QUESTION: ...What's the difference between your [Anarchist] views and
the Libertarian Party?

[This, among four other back-to-back call-in quations (see below)]

CHOMSKY: Well let me begin with the question about the Libertarian Party.
The Libertarian Party is familiar here -- unknown elsewhere. There's a
*long* tradition of Anarchism, Libertarian thought outside the United
States, which is *diametrically* opposed to the positions of the
Libertarian Party -- but it's unknown here.

That's the *dominant* position of what's always been considered
Socialist Anarchism. Now, the Libertarian Party, is a *Capitalist*
Party. It's in favor of what *I* would regard a *particular form*
of authoritarian control. Namely, the kind that comes through
private ownership and control, which is an *extremely* rigid
system of domination -- people have to.. people can survive,
by renting themselves to it, and basically in no other way.

So while I share a lot of..there's a lot of shared ground with the
special, U.S. right-wing anarchism, which really exists only here (and
in fact have plenty of friends, and so on), I do disagree with them
*very* sharply, and I think that they are not..understanding the
*fundamental* doctrine, that you should be free from domination and
control, including the control of the manager and the owner.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Xlea321]
    #2831100 - 06/26/04 02:30 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

so... how is libertarian socialism libertarian?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/23/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2831273 - 06/26/04 04:32 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

its not, thats the idea i think


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2831630 - 06/26/04 07:29 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

socially liberal, fiscally collectivist. (?)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Tao]
    #2831692 - 06/26/04 08:08 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

yes. libertarian socialism differs from libertarianism in that you may act freely as long as you do not initiate force (government officials exempted).... unless you are being productive or making free exchanges or agreements with other people. :smirk:

liberty doesn't cease the moment you begin working or making (voluntary) exchanges.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2831741 - 06/26/04 08:39 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

the defining characteristic of libertarianism is that it protects liberty in all activities except a certain subcategory of interpersonal interactions... the initiation of force.

libertarian socialism on the other hand, is presumably only libertarian in that it protects liberty in all activities except nearly all subcategories of interpersonal interactions... but really, it doesn't even protect liberty that far. even in solitude, one is subject to the power of the state if one decides to engage in productive labor.

there's really nothing libertarian about libertarian socialism at all.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2831762 - 06/26/04 08:48 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

haha. 3 in a row...

isn't it pretty clear that the power to control "the market" is really power to control everything?

marijuana prohibition was introduced as a tax, and could very well be executed as a tax. so could a lot of other infringements of liberty.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2832869 - 06/27/04 09:13 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

there's really nothing libertarian about libertarian socialism at all.



i'm impressed that youve managed to convince yourself of that. :smirk:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Tao]
    #2832877 - 06/27/04 09:16 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

tell me what is libertarian about a system which attempts to control and divert the production and exchange of wealth in society. what are the limits to its power? what rights do people retain?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2833037 - 06/27/04 10:23 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

you probably wont get a decent answer here considering there really arent any anarchists in this forum (although you probably enjoy this). If you actually want to debate the issue with anarchists, post here instead: http://flag.blackened.net/forums/index.php

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2833040 - 06/27/04 10:24 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

mushmaster asks:

what kind of socialism can be accurately described as libertarian socialism? what kinds cannot?

Who cares? It's just another of a seemingly infinite number of variations on Collectivism. That's all one needs to know.

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Vvellum]
    #2833132 - 06/27/04 10:55 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

So little time, so little time.

From time to time I just shake my head in wonderment at some of the posts in this forum, but I just spent half an hour poking around that blackened flag board. What a bunch of idiots.

In this forum we see a lot of made-up "facts", errors in logic, arbitrary statements with no foundation, bizarre philosophies and conspiracy theories, but there the entire board consists of nothing but!

Makes me glad to be here.

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Phred]
    #2833140 - 06/27/04 10:59 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

okay, wonderful you have an opinion. why not actually debate them instead of running back here and saying "...what a bunch of idiots. " You certainly have enough time to post, as we all can see here.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Vvellum]
    #2833145 - 06/27/04 11:02 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

What's the point? I spent long enough reading through some of their forums to see what happens to people who use facts and reason there. Those people are immune to both.

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Phred]
    #2833152 - 06/27/04 11:08 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

:lol: weak.

shelve the pretense and ego and put your money where your mouth is.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Vvellum]
    #2833316 - 06/27/04 12:06 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I am in the middle of a pretty hairy project IRL at the moment. This is the last day for the next two weeks that I will have any significant amount of time off. It'll be difficult enough for me to spend much time online anywhere till this project is done, so I have no intention of taking on yet another forum.

But I'll tell you what. If you want to go to that board and find a post there promoting Libertarian Socialist ideals that you feel I'd have a hard time shredding and cut and paste it here, I'll work on it when I can.

Before you do that, though, you might want to review these archived threads --

http://www.shroomery.org/archives/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=357603&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

http://www.shroomery.org/archives/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=570143&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1


-- where the same thing was done to several "anarchists" (Agent Cooper, mm. and svoboda, mainly) three years back. I'd hate to have to repeat myself. Most of the anarchist refutation was done in the first thread. By the time the second thread arose, it was mainly AgentCooper who was trying to defend the "Libertarian Socialist" point of view.

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,635
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 3 hours, 49 minutes
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Phred]
    #2833415 - 06/27/04 12:35 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

In your opinion, would someone who believed in a libertarian government but also advocated collectivist communities where people live under a voluntary socialist arrangement be a legitimate form of libertarian socialist?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Phred]
    #2833451 - 06/27/04 12:47 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I am in the middle of a pretty hairy project IRL at the moment. This is the last day for the next two weeks that I will have any significant amount of time off. It'll be difficult enough for me to spend much time online anywhere till this project is done, so I have no intention of taking on yet another forum.




wait, I thought everyone at that forum was below yourself and not worthy of receiving your arguments...

Quote:

But I'll tell you what. If you want to go to that board and find a post there promoting Libertarian Socialist ideals that you feel I'd have a hard time shredding and cut and paste it here, I'll work on it when I can.




No thanks. I'd rather see those who wish to debate anarchist theory actually debate anarchists. Seems like the intellectually honest thing to do. All else is just masterbation.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Phred]
    #2833519 - 06/27/04 01:05 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

by the way, I think the poster named Beery in the thread you linked summed it quite nicely:

Quote:

re:pinkshakmark

You seem unable to clearly understand anarchism, and you're merely engaging in contradiction. Your premises are somewhat lacking in relevance to my arguments (in certain parts it's almost like there's a complete disconnect) and you fail to cite any sources from which to derive a logical counter argument. You seem to be merely engaging in thoughtless rhetoric.

Your knowledge of anarchism is obviously quite basic (and that's being generous). You prefer to see anarchism as a simplistic utopian fantasy, rather than allowing that it can be as sophisticated a system as that in which we live today. Your overly simplified view of an anarchist society allows you to set up any number of straw man arguments. I suggest you really need to take some time to study the subject fairly rather than make arbitrary judgements about your straw man version of anarchism.




I dont think you "refuted" anarchism - if anything, it was a draw.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Vvellum]
    #2833526 - 06/27/04 01:07 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

bi0 writes:

I'd rather see those who wish to debate anarchist theory actually debate anarchists.

If that's what you'd rather see, feel free to review the two threads for which I provided links. Agent Cooper was a dedicated anarchist -- just check his avatar and the links he was constantly providing. Svoboda and mm. were anarchists as well, but mm. didn't have a lot of input into the discussion.

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2833609 - 06/27/04 01:31 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

tell me what is libertarian about a system which attempts to control and divert the production and exchange of wealth in society. what are the limits to its power? what rights do people retain?




i dont believe you saying that you can't see how its at all libertarian. its half libertarian which is why half its name is 'libertarian'. market is not unregulated, other personal freedoms are.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Tao]
    #2833616 - 06/27/04 01:33 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

a non-libertarian socialist might not believe in decriminalizing prostitution, drug use. euthanasia, gambling, etc.

anyway, like pinky said, its just another term to group a bunch of people together.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2834154 - 06/27/04 05:17 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Baby_Hitler asks:

In your opinion, would someone who believed in a libertarian government but also advocated collectivist communities where people live under a voluntary socialist arrangement be a legitimate form of libertarian socialist?

No.

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Vvellum]
    #2834192 - 06/27/04 05:33 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

bi0 writes:

by the way, I think the poster named Beery in the thread you linked summed it quite nicely:

Didn't bother reading my reply to Beery, did you? My reply demonstrated I understand as much (probably more) about anarchism as he does.

http://www.shroomery.org/archives/showfl...rev=#Post364877

I dont think you "refuted" anarchism...

Why am I not surprised you hold that opinion? The fact that none of the four anarchists arrayed against my argument were able to even answer -- much less defend their answers -- several of the key questions I posed in order to illustrate the absurdity of their variant of Collectivism means nothing to you, does it?

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Tao]
    #2834264 - 06/27/04 06:03 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

its half libertarian which is why half its name is 'libertarian'.

half of the words in the name are "libertarian". this doesn't make it half libertarian.

market is not unregulated, other personal freedoms are.

but a very large part of human life, particularly the actions required to sustain it, can be described as part of the market. power over the market is in fact complete power over people's lives.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,635
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 3 hours, 49 minutes
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Phred]
    #2834271 - 06/27/04 06:07 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Baby_Hitler asks:

In your opinion, would someone who believed in a libertarian government but also advocated collectivist communities where people live under a voluntary socialist arrangement be a legitimate form of libertarian socialist?

No.

pinky





Why not?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Tao]
    #2834278 - 06/27/04 06:09 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

a non-libertarian socialist might not believe in decriminalizing prostitution, drug use. euthanasia, gambling, etc.

but a "libertarian" socialist, instead of decriminalizing prostitution, euthanasia, and drugs, could require an impossibly expensive licensing fee for euthanisia doctors, prostitutes, and recreational drug manufacturers. they could levy such a tax on the proceeds from gambling or drug sales so as to force drug sales and gambling into the 'black market'.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Phred]
    #2834339 - 06/27/04 06:36 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

From the perspective of an outsider, I do not think that is the case at all. You were unable to defend your position just as much as the others - they scored some points as did youself.

Are you always so smug?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Vvellum]
    #2835146 - 06/28/04 12:12 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I'm afraid so.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2835411 - 06/28/04 01:55 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

its half libertarian which is why half its name is 'libertarian'.
half of the words in the name are "libertarian". this doesn't make it half libertarian.

cmon mm, you're not even trying. i said its ideology is half libertarian so its name is half libertarian. P therefore Q does not mean Q therefore P. All bachelors are men, not all men are bachelors. cmon i don't need to explain basic logic structure to you, youre not trying.

market is not unregulated, other personal freedoms are.

but a very large part of human life, particularly the actions required to sustain it, can be described as part of the market.

true, and socialism sees unequal opportunity to the market and aims to lessen these inequalities (though not completely even them and reduce any market incentive), thus aiming to increase individuals' ability to sustain life (i.e. universal healthcare, welfare for children with impoverished parents, etc.)

power over the market is in fact complete power over people's lives.
that would be if the market were a complete command economy which is not what socialism is

but a "libertarian" socialist, instead of decriminalizing prostitution, euthanasia, and drugs, could require an impossibly expensive licensing fee for euthanisia doctors, prostitutes, and recreational drug manufacturers. they could levy such a tax on the proceeds from gambling or drug sales so as to force drug sales and gambling into the 'black market'.

the operative word there being *could*. a libertarian *could* decide to create the most ridiculously expensive military possible and tax their populace as much as possible. they *could*, but given their ideology, they probably wouldn't. same would go for a libertarian socialist.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Vvellum]
    #2835529 - 06/28/04 03:33 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:

Are you always so smug?



Smug? Nah. He's just a very wise man who's right far more often than he's wrong. It's a talent.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Vvellum]
    #2835569 - 06/28/04 04:28 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

bi0 writes:

You were unable to defend your position just as much as the others - they scored some points as did youself.

Which position of mine was left undefended? You've read the threads, tell us which one I blew.

Are you always so smug?

It's not "smug" to point out fallacies.

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2835572 - 06/28/04 04:37 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Baby_Hitler writes:

Why not?

No Libertarian I've ever met (or read) would advocate Collectivist communities. The fact that Libertarians recognize there may be people living in a Capitalist country who would feel comfortable choosing to pool their possessions and live communally, and that Libertarians would support the right of those individuals to follow that course of action (to a point) doesn't make those Libertarians "Libertarian Socialists", it makes them Libertarians.

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Phred]
    #2835992 - 06/28/04 09:52 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Which position of mine was left undefended? You've read the threads, tell us which one I blew.




Well, besides sidestepping and strawman attacks, you simply did not answer many of their questions. I am in the middle of a pretty hairy project at the moment. This is the last day for the next two weeks that I will have any significant amount of time off. It'll be difficult enough for me to spend much time online anywhere till this project is done, so I have no intention of re-reading and picking apart that pedantic thread.

Quote:

It's not "smug" to point out fallacies.




You are smug to say that you "refuted anarchism" in those old threads when, from the perspective of an outsider who is neither an anarchist or Ayn Randist like yourself, neither side can fairly claim "victory" or "refutation." That is not the case, and to do so would be an excersise in arrogance. Your smugness is evident again when you called the entire population of blackened.flag idiots (after a mere 30 minutes) and not worthy of your arguments.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Vvellum]
    #2836185 - 06/28/04 11:29 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

That is not the case, and to do so would be an excersise in arrogance

:thumbup:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Tao]
    #2837059 - 06/28/04 04:41 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

cmon mm, you're not even trying. i said its ideology is half libertarian so its name is half libertarian.

yes and i said it wasn't, and explained why. a state that protects private citizens in engaging in any honest and peaceful action except creating wealth or making exchanges with other individuals is NOT "half-libertarian", but maybe a tenth or so.

market is not unregulated, other personal freedoms are.

and what good is the freedom to read subversive literature or smoke pot if you aren't allowed to provide for your own material well-being and survival in any peaceful way you see fit?

without market freedoms, you cannot survive. control over "the market" is control over the means by which humans provide for their material needs. it is control over life itself.

i don't mean this in a provacative way or anything... but do you have a job? do you pay bills? do you support yourself or do you depend largely on assistance from your parents?

true, and socialism sees unequal opportunity to the market

yes, some people are more qualified or in a better position to create wealth than others.

and aims to lessen these inequalities

by forcefully seizing wealth from those who are more productive and giving it to those who are less productive. who are you (or anyone else) to decide who shall have the wealth they create seized from them and bestowed on another person? if it wasn't for the economic consequenes, this would be, at the very least, an ethical problem. do you understand the incentives that this sort of policy provides to market behavior?

that would be if the market were a complete command economy which is not what socialism is

explain.

a libertarian *could* decide to create the most ridiculously expensive military possible and tax their populace as much as possible. they *could*, but given their ideology, they probably wouldn't. same would go for a libertarian socialist.

no they could not. taxation is an initiation of force.

Edited by mushmaster (06/28/04 06:45 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2838515 - 06/29/04 01:59 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

a state that protects private citizens in engaging in any honest and peaceful action except creating wealth or making exchanges with other individuals is NOT "half-libertarian", but maybe a tenth or so.

classic libertarian rhetoric, making mountains out of molehills. you make it sound like men roam supermarkets and stock exchanges with guns forcing people to buy and not buy certain things.

market is not unregulated, other personal freedoms are.

i don't mean this in a provacative way or anything... but do you have a job? do you pay bills? do you support yourself or do you depend largely on assistance from your parents?

i dont know what this has to do with anything, but no, I'll be doing that next year. and yes i do have job right now and quite frankly am a bit embarassed of it because I don't feel like it creates any real 'wealth', just trying to divert marketshare from another dot com. but that's another story. and aren't you like 20 or 21 going to university? fact is: *newsflash* most liberals have their own jobs and have to pay bills.

by forcefully seizing wealth from those who are more productive and giving it to those who are less productive. who are you (or anyone else) to decide who shall have the wealth they create seized from them and bestowed on another person? if it wasn't for the economic consequenes, this would be, at the very least, an ethical problem.

no one person decides. the society decides through democratic representation. if someone does not like the system, they may renounce citizenship and leave. simple as that. eventually any contract, such as this social contract, will have to resort to force if one party does not come through.

do you understand the incentives that this sort of policy provides to market behavior?

of course, that's why i wouldnt support full-on communism and command economies. its why there was so little innovation in the command economy eras of the pre-industrial agricultural era. however, lets say you have a 30% tax on something you do where you're earning $100. you will now only earn $70, but thats still $70 more than you would otherwise have so you're probably going to do that work. now if you took 100% of the money that would be a different story. And if someone was able to work and simply didnt and was completely supported, that would be a problem to. fortunately most welfare isn't actually like that (though most conservatives try to paint it that way), and places where it is, need to be reformed. no one will try to tell you that welfare in its current state does not need fixing and improvement. the welfare system is still in its very early stages.

that would be if the market were a complete command economy which is not what socialism is

explain.

command economy is where the all prices and markets are completely dictated by the state. in socialism, there are only parts which are controlled by the government. remember, like 5% of taxes go to welfare.

a libertarian *could* decide to create the most ridiculously expensive military possible and tax their populace as much as possible. they *could*, but given their ideology, they probably wouldn't. same would go for a libertarian socialist.

no they could not. taxation is an initiation of force.

how do will this society raise money for the military? the land value tax idea? techinically a society *could* have a crazily high land value tax. my point is that this "could" shit is irrelevant--they just wouldn't do something like that contrary to their ideology, if it was in fact their ideology.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2839333 - 06/29/04 10:13 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

and what good is the freedom to read subversive literature or smoke pot if you aren't allowed to provide for your own material well-being and survival in any peaceful way you see fit?

And how does socialism prevent this exactly? You think in a socialist country no-one can provide for their own material well-being?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Vvellum]
    #2840779 - 06/29/04 05:12 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

bi0 writes:

Well, besides sidestepping...

I did none.

... and strawman attacks..,.

Again, I did none.

... you simply did not answer many of their questions.

Sorry, you have me confused with the Anarchists. I answered their questions, they evaded mine the first three or four times I asked them, then got around to attempting to answer some.

Why are you attempting to misrepresent what was discussed in those threads? The links are there for all to see. Anyone reading it can see that I dodged nothing and set up no strawman "attacks".

You are smug to say that you "refuted anarchism" in those old threads when, from the perspective of an outsider who is neither an anarchist or Ayn Randist like yourself, neither side can fairly claim "victory" or "refutation."

So what Anarchist positions did I leave unrefuted? Their insistence that punishment for violent criminals is not required? Their position that hierarchy per se is inherently evil? Their waffling on what constitutes "consensus"? Their advocating coercion in agreements between two consenting adults? Their artificial distinction between "property" and "social possessions"? The logically flawed pronouncement that "property is theft"?

You'll notice that my very first scenario -- the wheelchair one -- flummoxed them completely. None of them could handle it. It went downhill for them from there. And that's not even considering anything at all from the second thread.

Your smugness is evident again when you called the entire population of blackened.flag idiots (after a mere 30 minutes)...

That's all it took to see roughly a dozen and a half severely flawed examples of logic, ad hominems, evasion, dodging, made-up "facts" and more. There are a few people ripping them to shreds, though. One of the ones poking holes in their positions claims to be sixteen years old. I don't know whether that's true, but he's got them tied in knots.

...and not worthy of your arguments.

The sixteen year old is doing fine all on his own. Let him shoot them down. Good learning experience for him.

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,635
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 3 hours, 49 minutes
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Phred]
    #2840989 - 06/29/04 06:19 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Baby_Hitler writes:

Why not?

No Libertarian I've ever met (or read) would advocate Collectivist communities. The fact that Libertarians recognize there may be people living in a Capitalist country who would feel comfortable choosing to pool their possessions and live communally, and that Libertarians would support the right of those individuals to follow that course of action (to a point) doesn't make those Libertarians "Libertarian Socialists", it makes them Libertarians.

pinky





How would a true libertarian feel about open source software?


Is open source socialism/collectivism?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Tao]
    #2841337 - 06/29/04 08:49 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

classic libertarian rhetoric, making mountains out of molehills.

i don't think it's making a mountain out of a molehill at all. the most fundamental human freedom of action is of action required to sustain life, meaning productive work and exchange. i don't feel that a state which is allowed to infringe upon this freedom is libertarian in the least.

if someone does not like the system, they may renounce citizenship and leave. simple as that.

excellent. than the whole arrangement is voluntary after all? are people arrested, fined, or exiled as a punishment for cancelling this "contract"?

of course, that's why i wouldnt support full-on communism and command economies.

few people do these days. in the earlier days of socialism, there were those who felt that a centrally controlled economy could provide both more equality and overall prosperity. some felt that "uncoordinated" market activity was less efficient than "planned" industry could be. fortunately most people see that idea for what it's worth these days and those on the left tend to favor "market socialism", hoping to combine the proven efficiency of the free market with the equality provided by socialism.

it works a little better, but not by much. even market socialists tend to favor protective tariffs, price floors\ceilings, heavy taxes, etc. all of these have detrimental effects on the market.

force is employed against peaceful individuals, and in the course of making a living, some are helped at the expense of others, the net result being negative. for ethical and practical reasons, i could not support any such system, and i also don't think that any such system could ever bear the name "libertarian".


how do will this society raise money for the military?


the most non-forceful way of obtaining revenue i can think of is contract insurance. i was thinking about it today though and there are problems even with that, but that is for another thread.

the term "libertarian socialism" describes a certain type of socialism in which liberty is retained unless it has to do with wealth. i understand that, and i can understand why the term "libertarian" was used to describe the type of socialism it refers to. the debate over the meaningulness of the distinction (which has made up the entirety of the discussion in this thread) is really second to the point i was trying to make in the beginning. "libertarian socialism" is not a form of libertarianism. it has nothing to do with libertarianism. it is a form of socialism. that much has been demonstrated pretty well here.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2842182 - 06/30/04 12:43 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

if someone does not like the system, they may renounce citizenship and leave. simple as that.


excellent. than the whole arrangement is voluntary after all? are people arrested, fined, or exiled as a punishment for cancelling this "contract"?




since when is complying with a contract 'voluntary'? The theory is that by choosing to bring their child up in a country, as guardians, the parents are 'signing' the social contract for their child until he/she chooses to opt out by renouncing citizenship. until then, there is tacit consent to the social contract with the government and its laws.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Tao]
    #2848265 - 07/01/04 05:16 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

since when is complying with a contract 'voluntary'? The theory is that by choosing to bring their child up in a country, as guardians, the parents are 'signing' the social contract for their child until he/she chooses to opt out by renouncing citizenship. until then, there is tacit consent to the social contract with the government and its laws.

follow that to its logical conclusion and you have a solid defense of tyranny.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2849685 - 07/02/04 12:16 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Follow it to it's "logical conclusion" for us. See how you make out.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2850095 - 07/02/04 02:30 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

In tyrannies it is usually extremely difficult to just leave the country because you don't like the politics. Plus the ideology of a social contract includes democratic representation. If people vote for a tyranny and choose to stay there in that tyranny...so be it I guess.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Xlea321]
    #2853822 - 07/03/04 11:29 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Follow it to it's "logical conclusion" for us. See how you make out.

ok.

taoteching is saying that by being born into a country, you give tacit consent (via your parents) to be a subject of the state and its authority. if you cannot see how that is a defense of tyranny, i don't suppose there's much helping you, but i'll point out the problems in the line of reasoning anyway.

we have to conclude that even a population under grinding oppression has also signed an invisible "contract" with its ruler, legitimizing its authority. that is plain as day.

and do parents have any right to make contracts such as these on behalf of their children? can a parent sell a child into slavery?

and the real kicker:

the government is the enforcer of all contracts in the land. it therefore cannot itself be bound to any contract. any contract must be mutually binding. the "social contract" is not. the state may do whatever it pleases. the citizens must obey the state, or leave the country (if they are even allowed).

the idea of a "social contract" is really a defense of unlimited government power.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2854797 - 07/03/04 07:43 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Well said. Extremely well said. Bravo!

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,635
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 3 hours, 49 minutes
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2855290 - 07/04/04 12:56 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

So would you say unlimited government power was bad?


What about unlimited financial power?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2858809 - 07/05/04 01:12 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

How would a true libertarian feel about open source software?

i love it.

Is open source socialism/collectivism?

nope.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2858811 - 07/05/04 01:13 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

So would you say unlimited government power was bad?

absolutely.


What about unlimited financial power?


impossible. the very idea of "unlimited financial power" is a contraction.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibletrendalM Happy Birthday!
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2858939 - 07/05/04 01:43 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

the very idea of "unlimited financial power" is a contraction.

Please explain!


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,635
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 3 hours, 49 minutes
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2859108 - 07/05/04 02:57 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, Please!


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: libertarian socialism [Re: trendal]
    #2859475 - 07/05/04 05:59 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"unlimited financial power" means unlimited wealth. wealth is, by definition, limited.

no person can have unlimited financial power. a person may have great financial power. they may be extremely wealthy... but they cannot be unlimitedly wealthy.

if someone has an extremely large amount of wealth... who is harmed?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: ]
    #2868599 - 07/08/04 11:33 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

if you cannot see how that is a defense of tyranny

Depends if the country is a tyranny or not.

we have to conclude that even a population under grinding oppression has also signed an invisible "contract" with its ruler, legitimizing its authority

Not sure about that mush. There's a difference between not approving of a government and being able to mount a revolution. Because the people don't launch a revolution every week doesn't mean they've signed an "invisible contract".

the state may do whatever it pleases. the citizens must obey the state, or leave the country

I presume you've heard of elections?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Xlea321]
    #2869076 - 07/08/04 02:33 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Because the people don't launch a revolution every week doesn't mean they've signed an "invisible contract".



:thumbup:  There is no 'social contract' this is merely a made up notion, disseminated and perpetuated by the ruling elite, their lackeys, their hired mouth pieces and those who have been brainwashed by the afore mentioned groups.  This is the modern equivalent of the 'divine right of kings' and should be recognized for what it is - a lie.

Quote:

I presume you've heard of elections?



I presume you've heard of vote tampering, electronic voting, courts over-ruling the will of the people and majorities suppressing minorities?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Xlea321]
    #2879074 - 07/11/04 05:47 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Depends if the country is a tyranny or not.

yes. and if it is, the rule of the tyrannical state is legitimized through this idea of an invisible "social contract".

There's a difference between not approving of a government and being able to mount a revolution..

of course. how does this make the statement you are responding to false?

Because the people don't launch a revolution every week doesn't mean they've signed an "invisible contract".

very true.

how do we know who has signed the contract and who hasn't?

I presume you've heard of elections?

yes, but my statement is still true. you must either obey or leave. if you're allowed to vote, great. doesn't change what i said.

i'll try to outline the central flaw in the "social contract" as clearly as i can for you:

1. any contract must be mutually binding. if only one party is legally bound to abide by a contract, it is not a contract at all.

2. the state, as the enforcer of all contracts in the land, cannot be legally bound to any contract.

3. the state therefore cannot enter into any such "contract" with the people.

any "contract" between the state and the people is no contract at all. it is an arbitrary (and unsigned) "agreement" that citizens (ahem... subjects) are required to obey, and the government is not.

Edited by mushmaster (07/11/04 07:00 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinepuffpuff23
Quetzalcoatl
Male


Registered: 07/19/11
Posts: 118
Loc: West by god Virginia Flag
Last seen: 11 months, 22 days
Re: libertarian socialism [Re: Anonymous]
    #16788333 - 09/04/12 05:46 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

At this point libertarian is any system which advocates less or no government at all. Libertarian Socialists reject government by all means and in every way possible. They seek to end authority and bring about socialism in a more libertarian manner, no hierarchy, no centralization, no government, but also by bringing about socialism by putting workers in control of the factories, setting up councils and other things. Than again, classical anarchists are only a part of the libertarian socialist spectrum, you still have individual anarchists and mutualists who advocate socialism. If you want to get technical libertarian means anarcho-communist as that is the reason the word exists in the first place, the represent anarchist communists in france after the word anarchist was banned. Please do your research before you criticize ideologies.


--------------------
If I can't drop acid than I don't want to be in your revolution.

puffpuff23's trading list.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]

Shop: Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Why Socialism?
( 1 2 3 4 ... 12 13 )
Lallafa 5,820 255 06/05/17 09:05 AM
by Falcon91Wolvrn03
* Communist Anarchism DigitalDuality 988 6 05/05/04 03:55 AM
by BleaK
* Right wing "libertarians"?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Xlea321 5,497 65 07/13/04 10:28 AM
by silversoul7
* God is an Anarchist.
( 1 2 all )
Baby_Hitler 4,824 33 07/21/05 01:12 PM
by rogue_pixie
* libertarianism
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
domite 11,638 131 09/23/03 03:26 PM
by Autonomous
* Libertarians & Corporations Autonomous 754 6 05/11/05 10:38 AM
by Autonomous
* A Libertarian Challenge
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Ancalagon 5,709 66 05/09/05 12:00 PM
by Autonomous
* Libertarianism BuzzDoctor 1,488 19 09/09/02 09:58 AM
by Innvertigo

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
5,062 topic views. 0 members, 4 guests and 17 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.039 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 14 queries.