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InvisibleThomas Envisio
Artist

Registered: 12/28/22
Posts: 1,662
New Standards Proposal To Admins, Mods, & Members * 1
    #28306128 - 05/04/23 09:32 AM (8 months, 21 days ago)

Hello To Everyone.

This thread is primarily intended for The Shroomery's administrators. It is also, secondarily, intended for moderators and members. I have noticed a lot of unnecessary, and, quite frankly, disturbing content on this site.

The Shroomery has so much potential to become a social and educational platform relevant to fungi and other topics. However, it is being hindered, and has a history of being hindered. Some of that hindrance, in my view, is due to a lack of implementing a strategic framework of enforced rules that can be categorized as having very high standards.

I propose the following . . .

Proposal For New Ground Rules

☀ No sexually explicit or seriously violent content. Alternatively, if it is somehow permitted by policy, these threads must be marked as sensitive and/or disturbing content when posting.
☀ No racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia, or casteism.
☀ No incitement of violence or promotion of violent ideologies.
☀ No harassment, dogpiling, trolling, gaslighting, or doxxing of other users.
☀ No sharing intentionally false or misleading information.
☀ No catering to one gender over another by dis-proportionately providing content to them.
☀ Mutual respect will be a theme and a reminder at least once per year by one or more administrators.
☀ When a member posts something insulting but within the rules, they will get a mandatory PM from a moderator recommending that blatant insults, slights, and jabbing posts should be refrained from.
☀ Moderators will undergo two annual reviews by administrators for potential mis-conduct that went unreported or that was reported.
☀ Moderators and administrators will perform a monthly security analysis for the detection of the following: Bots, informants, law enforcement, members intentionally disturbing people, and for all aspects regarding privacy and digital security. This includes the review of all member accounts, the frequency of their posts, what they most post about, and what their posts seem to most frequently instigate.
☀ All administrators will lead and share in one or more causes of philanthropy in which members can trust but verify their money is NOT being stolen or otherwise mis-used. Each administrator will have their own "cause" such as the tree-growing cause, the water well cause, and other causes that set an example of good conduct. Note: I have NOT vetted these causes, but I have read the posts to some extent, and applaud those who contributed to these and other causes.
☀ All moderators who express an interest in becoming an administrator will also have their own "cause," such as reducing carbon-14 in the air and oceans, reducing police violence, investing in scientific-medical research, etc.
☀ All members who express an interest in becoming a moderator will also have their own "cause," such as accountability for war criminals, promoting new inventions to address a real need somewhere, keeping cities cleaner, etc.

By adding these more dilated policies The Shroomery might become a much healthier place to chill out and relax. It may not seem that way due to the serious tone of some of these ideas above. However, those who play hard often know they also have to work hard. We can all play, and to some extent, we can all work.

Can we now have an adult, sophisticated dialogue about the items above without disparaging one another, or acting out in vanity? Can the administrators engage in this topic with great interest?

Sincerely,
Thomas Envisio


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InvisiblePsicomb
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Registered: 01/13/18
Posts: 4,634
Loc: the womb
Re: New Standards Proposal To Admins, Mods, & Members [Re: Thomas Envisio]
    #28306173 - 05/04/23 10:03 AM (8 months, 21 days ago)

Thanks for taking the time to write up all that.

I dunno if the answer to toxic shroomery membership is to create a thorough rulebook for the website.  As much as I get frustrated by the negativity and lack of consideration a good number of members express on a regular basis, I still feel it’s better to be able to see these real life personas come into view.   

These are real people and they’re able to say what’s really on their mind, whether I think it’s shit or not. There is value in that freedom and accessibility to “realness” as long as it doesn’t descend into violence, propoganda, or invasion of privacy

I agree that violent content and extremely offensive stuff should stay in OTD or something because it’s so off topic of many of the other forums here but expression is expression I guess.

Almost all these people came here for the mushrooms or the counterculture.  By establishing a rulebook of sorts it strips this site a bit of this freedom. As long as this site doesn’t become an extremist safe haven or 4chan I feel pretty content here. 

Throughout my time here the bad eggs will rant and rave and try to make their points but then they tend to get shut out by everyone else with common sense and decency or get banned and end up on stormfront instead or something

I love this place and the sometimes extremely frustrating aspects of it.  There is a melting pot here not seen on many other sites, and the wheels here somehow keep turning despite the craziness

With that said, I do believe your points on security sweeps for bots, puppets, and such on a more regular basis is a pretty dang good idea.  This site could be taken over by a flash mob of douchey internet warriors with an agenda real fast IMO

Peace love and fungus :mushroom2:


--------------------

When we constantly pull things apart trying to see how it works, we may end up with only an understanding of how to destroy something
- nick sand


Edited by Psicomb (05/04/23 10:17 AM)


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OfflineThe Tao
Look at the flowers.


Registered: 09/12/19
Posts: 1,550
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 13 minutes, 25 seconds
Re: New Standards Proposal To Admins, Mods, & Members [Re: Thomas Envisio] * 3
    #28306526 - 05/04/23 02:03 PM (8 months, 21 days ago)

What should happen if members disagree with the proposals based on your individual interpretations of what’s happening on the Shroomery?
You can be selective about which threads you read or follow. You can ignore members and threads. You can hit the whistle and inform moderators if you feel there is inappropriate content. They can then do their due diligence and investigate based on the rules developed by the administration over the years.
Ultimately you can remove yourself from the situation.
Pretty damn open minded place here. That means there are a lot of opinions on what is considered appropriate.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: New Standards Proposal To Admins, Mods, & Members [Re: Thomas Envisio] * 1
    #28306643 - 05/04/23 03:54 PM (8 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Thomas Envisio said:
Hello To Everyone.

This thread is primarily intended for The Shroomery's administrators. It is also, secondarily, intended for moderators and members. I have noticed a lot of unnecessary, and, quite frankly, disturbing content on this site.

The Shroomery has so much potential to become a social and educational platform relevant to fungi and other topics. However, it is being hindered, and has a history of being hindered. Some of that hindrance, in my view, is due to a lack of implementing a strategic framework of enforced rules that can be categorized as having very high standards.

I propose the following . . .

Proposal For New Ground Rules

☀ No sexually explicit or seriously violent content. Alternatively, if it is somehow permitted by policy, these threads must be marked as sensitive and/or disturbing content when posting.
☀ No racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia, or casteism.
☀ No incitement of violence or promotion of violent ideologies.
☀ No harassment, dogpiling, trolling, gaslighting, or doxxing of other users.
☀ No sharing intentionally false or misleading information.
☀ No catering to one gender over another by dis-proportionately providing content to them.
☀ Mutual respect will be a theme and a reminder at least once per year by one or more administrators.
☀ When a member posts something insulting but within the rules, they will get a mandatory PM from a moderator recommending that blatant insults, slights, and jabbing posts should be refrained from.
☀ Moderators will undergo two annual reviews by administrators for potential mis-conduct that went unreported or that was reported.
☀ Moderators and administrators will perform a monthly security analysis for the detection of the following: Bots, informants, law enforcement, members intentionally disturbing people, and for all aspects regarding privacy and digital security. This includes the review of all member accounts, the frequency of their posts, what they most post about, and what their posts seem to most frequently instigate.
☀ All administrators will lead and share in one or more causes of philanthropy in which members can trust but verify their money is NOT being stolen or otherwise mis-used. Each administrator will have their own "cause" such as the tree-growing cause, the water well cause, and other causes that set an example of good conduct. Note: I have NOT vetted these causes, but I have read the posts to some extent, and applaud those who contributed to these and other causes.
☀ All moderators who express an interest in becoming an administrator will also have their own "cause," such as reducing carbon-14 in the air and oceans, reducing police violence, investing in scientific-medical research, etc.
☀ All members who express an interest in becoming a moderator will also have their own "cause," such as accountability for war criminals, promoting new inventions to address a real need somewhere, keeping cities cleaner, etc.

By adding these more dilated policies The Shroomery might become a much healthier place to chill out and relax. It may not seem that way due to the serious tone of some of these ideas above. However, those who play hard often know they also have to work hard. We can all play, and to some extent, we can all work.

Can we now have an adult, sophisticated dialogue about the items above without disparaging one another, or acting out in vanity? Can the administrators engage in this topic with great interest?

Sincerely,
Thomas Envisio





your post, though much more structured and better presented, reminds me of one of one early post of one Wiccan_Seeker, new to the site, urging the management to stop the profuse use of the N-bomb in OTD, a word which then was still spelled with a hard ER like the donkey.

Over the next 8 years he was continuously and with increasing merriment curbstomped on a daily basis by OTD with escalating racism, homophobia, body shaming and what all possible.

He ended up an admin, so you're on the right track. :hug:

What you're proposing is an overhauling of the rules to a more unified whole, that i support, but have you read the varied rules already? A lot of stuff is already covered.

the Shroomery is organic, permaculture, like our very real forest gardens all over Africa, people pay directly to trees.org via their action page vetted by them as a licenced vetted charity.

You mean well.

What I like especially is that almost everything in your list amounts to creating a secure cohesive place that not just is a haven for those oft disadvantaged by the majority, but also a plae of accountability and which reaches out all over the world with works of great benevolence, like those fantastic forest gardens that will in a few years churn out roughly between 10-50 million fruits a year of many kinds, exactly where they are needed.

A problem i see is that the current approach of governing the Shroomery is organic while your proposal is far more rigidly controlled from the top down, like factory farming. The Shroomery is more grassroots up than top down.

I'm curious how my collegues feel about this.

we all very much would prefer a Shroomery with less fists and more open arms, the shroomery of hearts, and we're getting there, but if you have this many wonderful misfits in a bunch, top down is not the way to go.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here


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OnlineYthanA
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Re: New Standards Proposal To Admins, Mods, & Members [Re: Thomas Envisio] * 4
    #28306885 - 05/04/23 07:59 PM (8 months, 20 days ago)

Those are some interesting suggestions, I'll go through and list my thoughts individually.

☀ No sexually explicit or seriously violent content. Alternatively, if it is somehow permitted by policy, these threads must be marked as sensitive and/or disturbing content when posting.

This site has always been geared solely towards an adult audience, so we're relatively lenient about what content we allow. I'm not sure a site-wide policy like you propose would be popular, but I do think we could do a better job conveying what type of content is acceptable in individual forums. In the past I've considered giving forums a rating based on the MPAA rating system, where a G-rated forum is respectful, friendly, business only (like this forum, WA&F), PG allows swearing and revealing pictures, R allows nudity, violent imagery, and racism, and NC-17 is effectively unmoderated except for illegal content. The thing is, like Asante said, our forums have evolved organically and many wouldn't fit neatly into one of those categories. I'm happy to consider feedback though. There's probably a better way than what we're doing now, which basically amounts to "read the sticky!"

☀ No racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia, or casteism.
☀ No incitement of violence or promotion of violent ideologies.
☀ No harassment, dogpiling, trolling, gaslighting, or doxxing of other users.
☀ No sharing intentionally false or misleading information.


These are already prohibited site-wide, or in the majority of our forums with some clearly indicated exceptions. If you're regularly encountering this kind of behavior, it's probably more of a failure of enforcement than a lack of rules. I would ask if you notice a problematic pattern that you please bring it to the attention of an admin by opening a support ticket. For the limited number of forums where we do permit some of these behaviors, I'm open to feedback on better ways to convey what type of content members should expect, like I said in my previous point.

☀ No catering to one gender over another by dis-proportionately providing content to them.

I'm not sure how this would apply to us? Everyone can practice mycology (and take drugs!)

☀ Mutual respect will be a theme and a reminder at least once per year by one or more administrators.

Generally I agree with this sentiment, but I'm not sure an annual reminder is necessarily the best way of conveying it. There are other possibilities, like the welcome PM, or with the forum rating system I imagined, if we made a forum G-rated that would get the point across pretty clearly. The one large site I know of that maintains uniformly respectful discourse (Hacker News) does so via a superhuman pair of admins who are seemingly everywhere, modeling good behavior and gently correcting mistakes. I admire that approach but I'm not sure we could duplicate it. I certainly wouldn't have the patience for the job.

☀ When a member posts something insulting but within the rules, they will get a mandatory PM from a moderator recommending that blatant insults, slights, and jabbing posts should be refrained from.

It's a nice sentiment but it seems like it would just create more work for mods. Either we make something against the rules in a forum or we don't. When someone breaks the rules, there's already an option to issue them a warning, and we keep a log of these incidents so all the staff are coordinated and aware of the member's infraction history.

☀ Moderators will undergo two annual reviews by administrators for potential mis-conduct that went unreported or that was reported.

Our mods are all volunteers, and unless that changes, this isn't something I could ever get behind. When people are donating their time to do a largely thankless job, I don't think it's reasonable to subject them to overbearing scrutiny like that. If we're ever a huge web property and can afford to pay our mods the fair salary they deserve, then we might talk about more oversight. In the meantime, we choose our mods carefully and handle reports of misconduct as they come up. For a while we did run an annual anonymous feedback poll, where all users would be polled about a selection of mods and forums they were active in. People had the opportunity to rate the general management of a forum, rate individual moderators on specific criteria, and leave free-form comments. Each mod was then able to view their results, and reflect on the feedback. I'm not sure why we stopped doing that, I think the script broke and I never got around to fixing it. But that seemed like it was a good tool to help our staff be more aware of our blind spots and I should probably re-introduce it.

☀ Moderators and administrators will perform a monthly security analysis for the detection of the following: Bots, informants, law enforcement, members intentionally disturbing people, and for all aspects regarding privacy and digital security. This includes the review of all member accounts, the frequency of their posts, what they most post about, and what their posts seem to most frequently instigate.

For things like technical security, that's already locked down as best as I reasonably can and I already review our security logs pretty much daily. I'm not sure how you propose we scan for things like informants or law enforcement but I don't think there's a lot of demand for us to start doing stuff like snooping around in private messages and keeping dossiers on members' posting habits. Traditionally we've been about offering more privacy, not less. Also, I'm just not sure this kind of proactive approach towards account verification is feasible without a lot of clever automation. Maybe in a few years we'll be able to feed all new posts through an AI and ask it to alert us about questionable behavior, but we aren't quite there yet.

☀ All administrators will lead and share in one or more causes of philanthropy in which members can trust but verify their money is NOT being stolen or otherwise mis-used. Each administrator will have their own "cause" such as the tree-growing cause, the water well cause, and other causes that set an example of good conduct. Note: I have NOT vetted these causes, but I have read the posts to some extent, and applaud those who contributed to these and other causes.
☀ All moderators who express an interest in becoming an administrator will also have their own "cause," such as reducing carbon-14 in the air and oceans, reducing police violence, investing in scientific-medical research, etc.
☀ All members who express an interest in becoming a moderator will also have their own "cause," such as accountability for war criminals, promoting new inventions to address a real need somewhere, keeping cities cleaner, etc.


We liked that Trees for the Future is an objectively effective organization which helps address a number of intermingled issues, including climate change and environmental degradation, food and economic instability, and gender inequality. We felt that it was a worthy cause with broad appeal, which our entire community could rally behind. You're proposing a different approach, with each individual staff member advocating for their favorite cause, and I'm just not sure that would have the same impact. First, I can easily see it inducing compassion fatigue if people come to the Shroomery and are bombarded with a bunch of different appeals for contributions. Also, the more organizations we're fundraising for, the greater the chance a disreputable one could find its way it. And, it eliminates the fun experience of growing our team's donation total together. I know I have my own cause that I'm very passionate about, and I'm always tempted to use this site as a soap box. But people are constantly getting hit up for money online, and I think we should try to keep that under control, even when it's for a good cause.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Definitely some thought-provoking suggestions and I'm interested to hear more feedback.


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InvisibleThomas Envisio
Artist

Registered: 12/28/22
Posts: 1,662
Re: New Standards Proposal To Admins, Mods, & Members [Re: Ythan]
    #28307524 - 05/05/23 09:35 AM (8 months, 20 days ago)

Thank you for your remarks, Ythan and Asante.

If it's not too much to ask, can those of you listed in this link who have not yet commented also provide your views?

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/ainfo.php


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: New Standards Proposal To Admins, Mods, & Members [Re: Thomas Envisio]
    #28308621 - 05/06/23 05:25 AM (8 months, 19 days ago)

While we await Geokills and Administrator to complete our well choreographed Adminion Rhapsody..

lets suppose for a second that the admin team fails to break their sloth in taking up your suggestion to any measure, being kindly irreverent here, what is your systematic plan as a member of this community, not relying on the efforts of others but perhaps indirectly enlistinmg them by your shining example, to make the Shroomery the most awesome place on the web?

Firast thing i noticed of you is your dedication to keep the blotter going in the law enforcement accountability thread. Good stuff.

What are your further plans?

What more have you going on and in the works?

I wa nt to recommend to you to use the lowest part of your post, the signature, for a not too elaborate advocacy for your favorite Causes, by word or by link to a safe noncommercial nonproblenmatic site, preferably an audited and vetted one. doesn't have to be an aladdin's cave of treasures like mine a oneliner often has much more impact.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here


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InvisibleThomas Envisio
Artist

Registered: 12/28/22
Posts: 1,662
Re: New Standards Proposal To Admins, Mods, & Members [Re: Asante] * 1
    #28308726 - 05/06/23 07:59 AM (8 months, 19 days ago)

Well, those are difficult questions, and my answers to them could vary depending on what unfolds over the next several months and even the next several years. The world is in quite a vulnerable and tentative state of flux right now, and that state applies to me as well. It applies to all people on this planet, and people should become more aware of what is going on right now internationally.

I travel internationally and quite frequently, even now while Covid rules are still sometimes implemented. Generally, I try to get at least one mushroom hunt/hike in per nation, or reach out otherwise to a mushroom-relevant person. I usually refer them to an a non-profit mushroom identification site called Mushroom Observer (www.mushroomobserver.org). I have dedicated thousands of hours to that site and some aspects of its development. This site is highly recommended to those of you skillfully photographing mushrooms.

In regard to other causes, I have also talked internationally about techniques to arrest and hold accountable Bashar al-Assad and others in Syria who should appear before the ICC (The International Criminal Court). These individuals have committed war crimes, crimes against humanity, and several dozens of other serious crimes involving horrific violence. If anyone wants to see some sensitive, not suitable for work data regarding this topic, please visit here. There are many other sites relevant to this topic that people should become gradually aware of.

I've donated to Human Rights Watch (HRW), Amnesty International, Mushroom Observer, several churches, and other organizations during my life. I've also donated to countless individuals, which is something I won't go into further detail about.

I've volunteered at parks in the United States to clean up debris or otherwise fix things that rangers asked me to fix. I've served in other capacities in other ways, as well. I don't want to discuss those particulars at this time.

Recently, I've been working on this slightly infuriating rough draft: https://www.inaturalist.org/journal/nolo_mode/77879-a-true-intro-to-the-identification-of-fungi

As for The Shroomery, I can do NOTHING without the direct, intentional intervention of the administrators. I need them all on board, so to speak, on a jet that flies high and more than super sonic, with flight capabilities unparalleled by all known international assets. What I'd like to see is an initial change in policy and strategy. If we can agree on a policy change that will reduce mis-conduct and increase good conduct, I think that is a solid step forward. But - and this is a big "but" - can we actually take this solid step DAILY? The fight to do good is a moment-to-moment and daily personal battle. Can we all dig really dip within ourselves, and ask difficult questions? Can we look ourselves in the mirror today and say, "Am I being the best version of myself that I can be?" "Did I intervene when I should have?" "Was I a good person in this lifetime by at least my own standards, or the standards of someone who appears to have already lived a pretty good life and departed?" We need more self-reflection and we need to do more international travel to see ourselves in a different light. We can't just suddenly fix a planet of 8+ billion people and many highly serious issues.

Can we inspire ourselves on The Shroomery to be people who do more good than harm, even more-so than our currently daily standards? Can we inspire ourselves, even now, to become people of literary depth and breadth to the point of addressing difficult troubles on this planet? Can we converse with one another in a way that is generally uplifting and cordial/polite, even when we feel triggered or cut-off/apart? I'd like to ask everyone on this site these questions, and I do this now and here.

I've also been slowly preparing a presentation for those who take mind-manifesting materials, and to those who have, but whom no longer need them. This could take awhile, and I still have to figure out what to include and what NOT to include. I think this presentation will be worthy of concert goers in the future. We'll see. I still don't even know if it can be completed based on what I see people doing with psychedelic substances.

As you mentioned, Asante, I also want to see law enforcement be held accountable for their daily crimes, as well as their associates. We could talk for years about this topic on several levels, and what better place than The Shroomery? By the way, I have written to several dozen major and minor journalism sites, including Rolling Stone magazine, and I've asked for their intervention in educating the public and law enforcement regarding crimes committed by cops and their associates. I have literally referred them to the hyperlink above. That thread needs more exposure on various sites. Plus, it needs a more active audience that has experienced the true woes of awful police employees doing the criminal things that they frequently do.

I'll give the signature recommendation you mentioned above consideration in the near future. For now, I don't want to clog up the Cop Crimes thread with too much extra material. I don't like signatures personally. At least not in their current form. I also wish the avatars were higher in definition, but that's a topic for a completely different day.

I hope this answered all or at least most of your questions. If I missed something, or you'd like to follow-up on an item, feel welcome.

Cheers!


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InvisibleThomas Envisio
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Registered: 12/28/22
Posts: 1,662
Re: New Standards Proposal To Admins, Mods, & Members [Re: Thomas Envisio] * 1
    #28308916 - 05/06/23 10:14 AM (8 months, 19 days ago)

I just re-read my post above, and realized I missed an opportunity to respond more directly to the question,

Quote:

"What is your systematic plan as a member of this community, not relying on the efforts of others but perhaps indirectly enlisting them by your shining example, to make the Shroomery the most awesome place on the web?"




So allow me to add the following.

I would . . .

1. Propose upgraded policies and strategies.
2. If invited, implement and support those policies and strategies in a manner that is backed by the administrative policies and strategies.
3. I would really love an invitation to help re-design some of the visual graphics on this site. I have created art that can be modified for this site. I also have lots of ideas to visually alter the site so it is literally a more psychedelic yet aesthetic experience in and of itself. If the admins give me a green light, and can show me how to edit a theme to create a new one, I'd have fun doing that. I run Linux and need a really good app to edit a site and visually see what changes are being made in real-time.
4. Attempt to answer people's questions when I have the correct, complete answer(s).
5. If empowered, I would definitely try to address mis-conduct on this site by weeding out people who no longer meet The Shroomery's standards. I assure you that will come along with lots of undesired pain, pushing & pulling, uncomfortable dialogue, argument, and ultimately the forced removal of some members and their IP address(es). Weeds among the intended harvest might always be a topic of difficulty, but the weeds need uprooting. They are here, and they are here in relatively strong numbers. I ride a tall, high horse. I do not feel ashamed that I have a tall, high horse, nor do I abuse horses that are not as tall or high as mine. I try to do justice to mean and difficult people, however.
6. If someone is truly struggling, whether it's a medical issue or a difficult psychedelic experience, I will try to uplift them, support them, and alter their consciousness with positive, honest dialogue.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: New Standards Proposal To Admins, Mods, & Members [Re: Thomas Envisio] * 5
    #28309114 - 05/06/23 12:53 PM (8 months, 19 days ago)

Let me first say I use a different less visibly methodical method as you, but i've weighed your words with tender care.

Quote:

Can we inspire ourselves on The Shroomery to be people who do more good than harm




my knee jerk response to that is: Aren't we? We're a pretty fantastic bunch of people, all in all. Thats my opinion since Y2K here.
Do you feel the same?

In our forest gardens out in the sunny continent kissed by the Divine Universe with the emergence of humanity, they use agroforestry, which is the most ancient form of of agroculture, where trees bind the land. please take heed. they do this with permaculture, meaning they use a great variety if species that not co0mpete but synergize. Buckwheat in symbiosis with soil microorganisms pulls nitrogen gas out of the air and converts it to protein and turns soil alkalinity into soil nitrate like its BASF, fertilizer that allow things like corn to grow. Then there's other plants that chase away aphids and other pests, they are planted inbetween. There are ones with root systems that break open soil that was closed shut.

The next door neighbor, mr Monsantan, plows hard, weeds hard, uses pre emergent herbicides, hauls water till his back breaks, nitrogen fertilizer, potassium phosphate, epsom salt, a simple guy! then theres pests and out comes the dieldrin and the kepone like silent spring wasnt written.

He has a field of corn, it looks like crap, it looks like hes drying it on the stalk for harvest but its only half way there.

he has plenty of time while breaking his back seeing that his forest garden neighbor does no plowing, needs to haul much less water, not using chemicals for pest control nor fertilizer, much less work, much more harvesting, and when Mr Shroomy tosses him an oar of corn to have a snack, its so big thick and green and when he breaks the leaf back it gives such a wet iceberg lettuce crack exposing such full round shiny kernels it gives him a boner.

point of this long piece on permaculture:


Quote:

If empowered, I would definitely try to address mis-conduct on this site by weeding out people who no longer meet The Shroomery's standards. I assure you that will come along with lots of undesired pain, pushing & pulling, uncomfortable dialogue, argument, and ultimately the forced removal of some members and their IP address(es). Weeds among the intended harvest might always be a topic of difficulty, but the weeds need uprooting. They are here, and they are here in relatively strong numbers.




you're whipping out the dieldrin, ddt and kepone here. paraquatting the field for "weeding out people who no longer meet The Shroomery's standards"

the undesired people.:unwanted:

The hostile feminist transgender. The aspie who makes topic a bit too much about their favorite topic. The guy bummed out on an acid trip. the sociopath who intends no malice but loses his patience with "dumb sh*t" that the other happen to care a lot about. The girl posting in graphic detail about her excursions into intravaginal lsd inclupding pics at least i wish didnt happen.

But the short fuse sociopath actually makes brillant meticulous pictorials and he's the first to report suspicious activity because he enjoys the Shroomery not being a mess just like we do. the asperger needs their nerdout to stim, the intravaginal gal has daddy issues.:smirk:

Separate the wheat from the chaff.

in Africa, they pour the buckwheat slowly from high up into a basket below, so that the wind blows the chaff dust out of the seeds. Minimal effort, working with nature.

The sociopath who wants this place not be a mess by reporting, turns out to be more of a pesticide than a pest, despite the prejudice against him.

See where this is going? By a mile right?

you are promising to remove "the undesirables" in a painstaking process of horrific drama throughout the board. Though we have thousands of active members a very capable and driven moderator like Enlil and myself could effect this in a single political purge night, which for either of us will be an early morning razzia since we use the planet as an ego separator.

What is a weed in a permaculture? Something that is invasive and overtakes the harmony.

our harmony includes the eyesores, like a Delhi street.

Most of those who were problematic and still with us, have reformed.

We got a special thing here.

It has social injustice yes, but thats life, and the bigger a site gets the more it resembles the mayhem of the internet.

our forest garden has different harvests all year. if you allow people who are very dissimilar a very wide margin of behaviors, there are very many possibilities.

thats what i meant in the first reply with organic.

Why do you want us to fit your wishes so precisely?



on another note: like you i foresee great turmoil in the coming time, i see a shroomery that will get more socially cohesive to help one another get through this, more helping hands outward and within.

people got to be real, especially since in real life theyt might have too big responsibility. better go op the wall online than at home right?

everywhere it is written there mushrooms are forbidden taboo unspeakable, and here we are in defiance of those rules.
Would better rules fix the situation?



Quote:

I ride a tall, high horse. I do not feel ashamed that I have a tall, high horse




why should you, it allows you to look me in the eyes when i stand here chatting with you :naughty:


You have good intentions, you have ambitions, you state them with confidence, brilliant. The world would be in better shape if people took a stand for what they feel is right.


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higher knowledge starts here


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InvisibleThomas Envisio
Artist

Registered: 12/28/22
Posts: 1,662
Re: New Standards Proposal To Admins, Mods, & Members [Re: Asante]
    #28309241 - 05/06/23 02:33 PM (8 months, 19 days ago)

I applaud your natural, permaculture analogies. They actually relay an effective stance on The Shroomery and how you best see its co-existence. I respect your views on this matter, and the way you've articulated them. You have far more acceptance or tolerance of personalities than myself. For that, again, I really do applaud you.

Allow me to reply with this . . .

I realize you believe you are in contact with a Spirit Guide on a very personal level to the point of hearing that guide's dialogue. While I do NOT have - or believe - in such a thing for myself personally, I will write something rather similar, but with nuanced details regarding the future.

We've briefly written to one another about a range of topics, including Ukraine, Russia, Syria, Israel, Palestine, China, Taiwan, etc. You don't necessarily need a Spirit Guide or a Divine Intervention to see that global turmoil is not only escalating, it is practically guaranteed to continue escalating. I predict there is not only going to be "spill-over" of highly malevolent exhibitions of consciousness, but also spill-over verbally, mentally, physically, and digitally. I believe this will effect some nations far more than others, but digital communities will take some hits.

If I was a guard for The Shroomery, I would be asking for a meeting with my boss's boss, along with anyone who says they share in the burdens of security. This site, a somewhat primarily mind-manifesting fungi site, does not just require DDoS prevention security, and similar forms of security. It needs to have some level of knowledge of its members without the invasion of their privacy or dis-respecting their modus operandi (i.e. the way they choose to conduct themselves).

So let me ask you a politely-intended group of questions.

1. Do you really know your members?
2. Do you actually know your moderators?
3. Do you truly know your fellow administrators and the former administrators, including their activities?

If you're the manager of this forest, I caution you with kindness, it would be a good time to start looking at this community with more magnification, but ethical magnification.

When I wrote to you about "weeds," I did not mean we should remove Amanita phalloides from The Shroomery Permaculture. (Gosh, I actually have officially begun liking this phrase "permaculture.") I just mean that you have members on this board who are doing harm, and sometimes it appears to be highly intentional, like an under-age member trying to get a rise out of people. I would like to ask you if you'll perform some level of investigation into the membership, moderatorship, and administration to see when and where unnecessary mis-conduct is occurring(?).

I have no problems with a trans person having a rant. In my opinion, there should be more posts by trans persons because they have been treated with such a degree of awfulness by society, they should vent.

I have no problems with someone who has diagnosed or un-diagnosed Asperger's Syndrome who happens to also have Obsessive–Compulsive Personality Disorder. If they need to go into some topic with such great detail that they lose their audience. I don't see that as a problem for the community.

The guy bummed out on an acid trip is also not a problem. I would much rather talk to that guy and try to uplift his mentality, than finding myself talking to a Bot created for cruel entertainment and pathetic research.

The sociopath who intends no malice but loses his patience with dumb stuff should also be welcome here. Their probably not going to cause too much of an issue. However, a bit of eloquence quietly recommended via PM might be a good approach for some of these folks. I recommend moderators NOT making these recommendations publicly, but rather via PM.

You mentioned, "the undesired people." I happen to be supportive, normally, of undesired people. Even strange people. Even people that can seem like a threat in-person. I know what it's like NOT to fit into to societies both digital and non-digital. I know that can not only hurt, it can drive one to insanity. The Shroomery should promote being highly inclusive of people, but WITH the knowledge that NOT everyone can present themselves here and do whatever they want - without oversight and consequences.

Now, allow me to discuss some of these other examples briefly. Then we should both take a break. :sun:

You mentioned other characterizations of members, or potential members at least.

Quote:

"The girl posting in graphic detail about her excursions into intravaginal lsd including pics at least I wish didn't happen."




This is something I think we should NOT have to tolerate by policy. If for some reason it is permitted, the thread SHOULD definitely be marked with some tag like "This Thread Contains Sensitive And/Or Disturbing Content." We should all also have an account settings option to "Hide All Threads/Posts Marked As Sensitive And/Or Disturbing Content." I personally can't hide enough threads to keep myself above water. I personally can't hide enough users to keep myself in The Light Of Day. I have standards different than most people on this planet. 'Well aware of it.

The intravaginal LSD girl aside, and the Bots aside, The Shroomery still has many other profiles with serious distress signals. If I was hunting The Shroomery for negative mutualistic relationships, along with characterizing their effects on this community, I would be able to provide actionable knowledge. I bet you could, too. I bet a lot of us could. Heck, I'd probably make the list on occasion. However, I really do have good intentions here, and I haven't tried to disturb anyone intentionally or carelessly.

I don't want to condemn people. I don't want to ostracize people. I don't want to see people banned or punished. I would just like things to be a little tidier, a little more polite, and a bit more parallel to what most of us might expect from a psychedelic fungi community that is supposedly having fantastic experiences involving the altering of consciousness. I don't see this yet in this community. It feels more like a Xanax plus Opiod plus Alcohol community adding other items in. It feels like a community in need of new leaders, at least at the moderator level.

The administrators can and should consider implementing some modifications to The Shroomery's policies, strategies, and rules. I support, even with some boldness, your view, Asante, on the site being "organic." However, there is such a thing as terraforming. This can be done by negative AI, simple Bots created by a junior high student, profiles used by informants, profiles used by people trying to get an angry rise from members, profiles of true individuals who have developed excess pride, and other profiles of true concern.

As we approach a third potential world war that is almost practically guaranteed, I suggest the administrators take what I've written and truly contemplate what might happen to this "organic" community in the snap of a finger or gradually. If this is your forest, I politely suggest to you as a traveler thru it, that I've not yet found any magic fungi in your forest. Higher standards are needed. More formality is needed. More pleasantries are needed. More kindness would be wonderful. Less insults would be highly wonderful. More good causes of philanthropy would be heart-warming. Less disparaging of the site would be a delight.

This community has more potential than Twitter, Reddit, Mastodon, Tik-Tok, Facebook, Tumblr, Instagram, and several other sites combined. Not in terms of money. In terms of consciousness development.

Does The Shroomery administration have the organic or synthetic lifeforce to rise in 2023 and beyond by implementing higher standards?


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OfflineThe Tao
Look at the flowers.


Registered: 09/12/19
Posts: 1,550
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 13 minutes, 25 seconds
Re: New Standards Proposal To Admins, Mods, & Members [Re: Thomas Envisio]
    #28309304 - 05/06/23 03:16 PM (8 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Thomas Envisio said:

The sociopath who intends no malice but loses his patience with dumb stuff should also be welcome here. Their probably not going to cause too much of an issue. However, a bit of eloquence quietly recommended via PM might be a good approach for some of these folks. I recommend moderators NOT making these recommendations publicly, but rather via PM.

I don't want to condemn people. I don't want to ostracize people. I don't want to see people banned or punished. I would just like things to be a little tidier, a little more polite,on%20(%22Earth%2D,for%20humans%20to%20live%20on.]terraforming[/url]. This can be done by negative AI, simple Bots created by a junior high student, profiles used by informants, profiles used by people trying to get an angry rise from members, profiles of true individuals who have developed excess pride, and other profiles of true concern.

More kindness would be wonderful. Less insults would be highly wonderful. More good causes of philanthropy would be heart-warming. Less disparaging of the site would be a delight.
P





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InvisibleCrazy_Horse
I’m Rick James, bitch!
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Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 13,283
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Re: New Standards Proposal To Admins, Mods, & Members [Re: The Tao] * 11
    #28309357 - 05/06/23 04:21 PM (8 months, 19 days ago)

You have a dystopian vision for the Shroomery.


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OfflineThe Tao
Look at the flowers.


Registered: 09/12/19
Posts: 1,550
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 13 minutes, 25 seconds
Re: New Standards Proposal To Admins, Mods, & Members [Re: Crazy_Horse]
    #28309453 - 05/06/23 06:14 PM (8 months, 18 days ago)

Are you referring to the OP or to me? I’m so mellow people take my pulse to make sure I’m alive.


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InvisibleCrazy_Horse
I’m Rick James, bitch!
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Posts: 13,283
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Re: New Standards Proposal To Admins, Mods, & Members [Re: The Tao]
    #28309463 - 05/06/23 06:18 PM (8 months, 18 days ago)

To the op, sorry.the op, sorry for the confusion.


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InvisibleAsante
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Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
Re: New Standards Proposal To Admins, Mods, & Members [Re: Crazy_Horse]
    #28309566 - 05/06/23 08:22 PM (8 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Crazy_Horse said:
You have a dystopian vision for the Shroomery.





I agree, the world is going to sh*t but the Shroomery is going to shinola, our community is about discerning the two and dispelling dangerous misinformation, Thomas sees this, sees the potential and wants to help polish the Shromery up to a shine.

I believe though that one oif the things the Shroomery shines in is tolerance, and tolerance only growsa when its taced, just like muscles bones and neural nets.

Quote:

I realize you believe you are in contact with a Spirit Guide on a very personal level to the point of hearing that guide's dialogue. While I do NOT have - or believe - in such a thing for myself personally




you're not required to in any way but an above average intelligence troubled kid taking his smart imaginary friend into his adult life isn't that much of a stretch.

Letr me return to this when i can give it full attention. Can I ask your age? 50 here.


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OfflineJanus62
Call me Hugh
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Re: New Standards Proposal To Admins, Mods, & Members [Re: Asante] * 3
    #28309772 - 05/07/23 12:08 AM (8 months, 18 days ago)

And...So it begins.

There's a couple of areas on Shroomery where I personally feel things at times go too far.  I choose not to visit.

There's probably a couple of members who repeatedly spread poison in the rest of the site.  If I'm offended, I can "ignore this user".

The mods do a great job, presumably for no reward other than the appreciation of the rest of us, and what I see and read on here is more tolerant and considerate than society as a whole.  The idea of their being required to have what sounds like 6 monthly performance reviews is in my opinion disrespectful.

I joined this site because of a fascination with shrooms.  If I wanted to hear people talk about trees, wells, and environmental issues, there's plenty of other places on the internet better suited to it.


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🅃 🄴 🄰 🄼    🄲 🄻 🄸 🄽 🄶 🅆 🅁 🄰 🄿


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Invisiblenooneman
Male

Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,555
Loc: Utah
Re: New Standards Proposal To Admins, Mods, & Members [Re: Thomas Envisio] * 11
    #28309801 - 05/07/23 01:06 AM (8 months, 18 days ago)

Your proposals do that thing where some of them are reasonable, and then others are crazy. This is too much, too extreme. You mix in reasonable stuff, but it's mixed with crazy stuff. And there's some just plain silly.

The whole thing about the review and having a cause or whatever like wut. This is some weird political stuff you're trying to force on people. This is a forum. I feel like that guy who is like "Ma'am this is a Walmart."

Forcing moderators and admins do political stuff is just weird and not right. They should be allowed to think for themselves, and live their own lives. If they want to do something great, if not, great. They're moderators and admins, not activists, unless they want to be. They should have the same freedom as any other members. You don't have to be an activist to be a good admin, and sometimes activists make bad admins, the two things are unrelated. If admins want to do something, cool! If not, cool! They're members too. They're human beings, with their own goals, thoughts ideas, dreams, just let them live their own lives.

The forum itself other than its psychedelic bent is not like overly political activist like, nor should it be. We accept people of all different political persuasions and belief systems here, including extremists from both sides. Acceptance is at the core of psychedelic culture, like anything it has limits, but it's a big part of the psychedelic experience.

I would also like to point out that to accomplish any meaningful change to psychedelic law and the public perception of psychedelics, we need both sides of the political spectrum, conservatives and liberals, but we especially need conservatives. We can't alienate either side, and historically we've been surprisingly successful at doing so. I'd hate to see that success thrown away in favor of political grand standing.

The monthly security analysis: having them go through every account? Damn that's some dystopian big brother shit. Even just watching for bots: the mods for the most part are unpaid volunteers. This is a forum, not a big business.

Banning sex and violence? Like come on man. I'm a big believer in nonviolence, but I also like freedom of speech. It has limits, sure, but not like this. Banning sex? That's just straight up puritanical. The Shroomery was built on tits, ass, and pussy, and yes many, many unwanted cocks.

Having said all that, everything has limits, and clearly there are things we don't allow, of course. Everything in moderation.

Proposals like this are why I dislike extremism in general. It does honestly feel really dystopian what you're proposing. To sum:
Quote:

Crazy_Horse said:
You have a dystopian vision for the Shroomery.




Even so, thank you for offering your point of view. You're accepted here too.


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InvisibleThomas Envisio
Artist

Registered: 12/28/22
Posts: 1,662
Re: New Standards Proposal To Admins, Mods, & Members [Re: Asante]
    #28309857 - 05/07/23 02:48 AM (8 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Can I ask your age? 50 here.




46


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OnlineYahra
Meow


Registered: 03/06/23
Posts: 1,842
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 3 minutes, 35 seconds
Re: New Standards Proposal To Admins, Mods, & Members [Re: nooneman] * 1
    #28309899 - 05/07/23 04:42 AM (8 months, 18 days ago)

Good post.

We don't need another over-regulated place in the internet.

There are just too many.

:brushrage:


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Disobey


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