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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Let's talk Trans issues and how people react to them (respectful) [Re: Seriously_trippin] * 1
    #28294686 - 04/25/23 11:55 AM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
That's fair enough. It's hard to tell from people like me that are willing to change their viewpoints based on a debate and research and others who dont care if the study they looked at was never corroborated or true they will still use that study to justify their viewpoint. And I'm looking for the studies I looked at years ago and they aren't to be found. So maybe I was hoodwinked on the facts sure.

However in fact I can't find any studies  specifically on kids that transitioned at a young age and whether they regretted it or not after 18. Just studies on trans adults that regret it somewhere in the range of 2-8%  and a few stories here and there from right wing channels of detransitioned adults.




Those studies you found are much more representative of reality. Very few people are receiving surgery before 18, so it's hard to study a nearly-non existence population. There are a few though; here's one that considers the effect receiving puberty blockers has on lifetime rates of suicidal ideation. The quick takeaway? ~40% of transgender people will attempt suicide; access to puberty blockers is associated with lower lifetime suicidal ideation among transgender adults who ever wanted this treatment; only 2.5% of willing transgender adolescents received puberty blockers.

The reality is that gender affirming care is still incredibly difficult to access despite its demonstrated benefits, and that permanent transition is not made available until the very end of a long medical process. Considering all this, is it easier to understand why your opinion might have been lumped in with trans hate? Especially if one is aware of the information above, and has lost friends and family to that awful suicide statistic.

A good example for why we should never just be complacent in our beliefs. We should challenge them before we challenge others with them.




Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
So I suppose if you take what I heard in that crap study out of the equation I still feel like when you're young it's a confusing time, you may want to feel more accepted, part of a community, be genuinely confused about sexuality even if you aren't lgbtq and I still feel like more kids are identifying as lgbtq then there are lgbtq kids.

Let me ask you this though. This one I can't find because it was years ago but I did see a pride documentary about a school I believe in Europe and the whole point of the documentary is that 80% of that high-schools student body identified as LGBTQ.

They attributed it to being an accepting school but after I watched that I thought it was an interesting case study. 80% of that school identified as lgbtq. I know that not 80% of the world's population is lgbtq so in this particular school how did 80% wind up identifying this way?

My conclusion is that some truly were lgbtq and that some were trying to feel accepted since at that particular school being lgbtq meant you'd be accepted and part of a larger group. So I think there are societal factors that can lead to a kid claiming to be lgbtq and then find out it wasn't really them.




I think it's important to remember that LGBTQ contains a lot more than just transgender. I feel a huge junk of the world is probably bisexual to some extent, to be honest - but I can also understand that children will just go along with whatever seems popular. What's the problem with that? Kids go through lots of phases as they grow up - it's a process fueled by both social acceptance and self-discovery. Why shouldn't we foster an environment of acceptance?


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OfflineNotSheekle
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Re: Let's talk Trans issues and how people react to them (respectful) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #28294717 - 04/25/23 12:13 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

The problem is that children are being given life altering medications and surgeries to reaffirm these trends into their permanent reality. Should kids be allowed to get face tattoos because they make rap on SoundCloud? What about splitting their tongue if they identify as snake-kin? Should they be allowed to marry and conceive children because they believe they’re mature enough?  Should they be allowed to drive, drink, smoke, own firearms and go to war all before 16?

Obviously we intervene for a reason...


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Let's talk Trans issues and how people react to them (respectful) [Re: NotSheekle] * 2
    #28294757 - 04/25/23 12:46 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Children can already take life changing medication and have life changing surgeries. They can already get married, have kids (against their own will in some cases), get tattoos, and drive before the age of 16.


When will the reactionaries and weirdos stop using children as a smokescreen for their preoccupation with the sex lives of strangers?

Maybe I’m the only person who remembers this exact same rhetoric being deployed against the recognition of gay people in general, in the early oughts. You’d have the typical psychos saying shit like “it’s against God, they’re going to hell for sinning,” but you’d also have the ‘reasonable moderate’ saying “look I don’t care what people do behind closed doors but just don’t shove it down my throat, it shouldn’t be affecting children.”

It’s bullshit. None of these people care about children. They’re typically advocating for a political movement that’s forcing children to give birth to their rapist’s baby. Stop taking these people seriously.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Let's talk Trans issues and how people react to them (respectful) [Re: NotSheekle] * 2
    #28294833 - 04/25/23 01:56 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

NotSheekle said:
The problem is that children are being given life altering medications and surgeries to reaffirm these trends into their permanent reality. Should kids be allowed to get face tattoos because they make rap on SoundCloud? What about splitting their tongue if they identify as snake-kin? Should they be allowed to marry and conceive children because they believe they’re mature enough?  Should they be allowed to drive, drink, smoke, own firearms and go to war all before 16?

Obviously we intervene for a reason...




Children are not being given life altering medications or surgeries.

Like I challenged the other guy, go find the age of the youngest permanent transition.

And children are already allowed to do everything that you mention. A 12 year old can get a face tattoo with parental permission, and as a recent Missouri legislator just proudly declared, he knows many people who got married as 12 year olds, had babies, and are even married to this day.

Oh, and we're currently loosening child labor laws, so...yeah. 14 year olds can now work overnight shifts at meatpacking plants in Arkansas, and unlike adults, they don't qualify for workman's comp if they get injured.


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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Let's talk Trans issues and how people react to them (respectful) [Re: Kryptos]
    #28294903 - 04/25/23 02:50 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:

Oh, and anyone that is simultaneously concerned about children doing permanent damage to their bodies and against puberty blockers (which prevent irreversible changes to the body) is a hypocrite. That's really how you can tell that anti trans people have no legitimate concerns besides "I think those people are icky and should therefore be killed".




Children cant stay at home alone because not mature enough. Cant get tattoos, drink alcohol, smoke, drive a car, vote, consent to sex, aren't tried as adults because its universally accepted that their brains aren't developed enough to fully comprehend and make properly informed decisions. But you're a bigot if you think a child's too young to change their gender


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OfflineSeriously_trippin
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Re: Let's talk Trans issues and how people react to them (respectful) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #28294916 - 04/25/23 03:02 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
That's fair enough. It's hard to tell from people like me that are willing to change their viewpoints based on a debate and research and others who dont care if the study they looked at was never corroborated or true they will still use that study to justify their viewpoint. And I'm looking for the studies I looked at years ago and they aren't to be found. So maybe I was hoodwinked on the facts sure.

However in fact I can't find any studies  specifically on kids that transitioned at a young age and whether they regretted it or not after 18. Just studies on trans adults that regret it somewhere in the range of 2-8%  and a few stories here and there from right wing channels of detransitioned adults.




Those studies you found are much more representative of reality. Very few people are receiving surgery before 18, so it's hard to study a nearly-non existence population. There are a few though; here's one that considers the effect receiving puberty blockers has on lifetime rates of suicidal ideation. The quick takeaway? ~40% of transgender people will attempt suicide; access to puberty blockers is associated with lower lifetime suicidal ideation among transgender adults who ever wanted this treatment; only 2.5% of willing transgender adolescents received puberty blockers.

The reality is that gender affirming care is still incredibly difficult to access despite its demonstrated benefits, and that permanent transition is not made available until the very end of a long medical process. Considering all this, is it easier to understand why your opinion might have been lumped in with trans hate? Especially if one is aware of the information above, and has lost friends and family to that awful suicide statistic.

A good example for why we should never just be complacent in our beliefs. We should challenge them before we challenge others with them.



Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
So I suppose if you take what I heard in that crap study out of the equation I still feel like when you're young it's a confusing time, you may want to feel more accepted, part of a community, be genuinely confused about sexuality even if you aren't lgbtq and I still feel like more kids are identifying as lgbtq then there are lgbtq kids.

Let me ask you this though. This one I can't find because it was years ago but I did see a pride documentary about a school I believe in Europe and the whole point of the documentary is that 80% of that high-schools student body identified as LGBTQ.

They attributed it to being an accepting school but after I watched that I thought it was an interesting case study. 80% of that school identified as lgbtq. I know that not 80% of the world's population is lgbtq so in this particular school how did 80% wind up identifying this way?

My conclusion is that some truly were lgbtq and that some were trying to feel accepted since at that particular school being lgbtq meant you'd be accepted and part of a larger group. So I think there are societal factors that can lead to a kid claiming to be lgbtq and then find out it wasn't really them.




I think it's important to remember that LGBTQ contains a lot more than just transgender. I feel a huge junk of the world is probably bisexual to some extent, to be honest - but I can also understand that children will just go along with whatever seems popular. What's the problem with that? Kids go through lots of phases as they grow up - it's a process fueled by both social acceptance and self-discovery. Why shouldn't we foster an environment of acceptance?




This is the kind of response I was looking for. You got someone saying I'm just not taking the time or I'm not media literate, that's not it I took about an hour of an incredibly busy day yesterday to try and find the statistics on trans kids and there's not much info unless you already know exactly what to look for because you study it alot. But I think Shiva is right there isn't much data because there are not alot of trans kids that have had  gender reasignment surgeries. Even with hormone blockers there's not alot of data presumably because of child's rights visa vi studies.

You are right that gender affirming care isn't very prevalent even if it is a good thing. Which personally I'd have to read more about that but for the purposes of this conversation I can see that being true.

I do understand why I get lumped into trans hate sometimes but I deeply feel like if people didn't jump to that conclusion when talking to someone who is saying " I support being whoever you truly are but I disagree on a few things and let's talk about it" then there could be an actual discussion like we are having now where you're not making me feel like I'm evil and I'm trying to be as respectful as I can toward a sensitive subject I have no experience in.

However I think where that comes from is most people in my shoes "asking questions" don't really have an open mind and it must get frustrating to a person in that community to explain their position succinctly just to have someone ignore everything they said. But I do wish that wasn't the case.



It is indeed important to realize that lgbtq includes at least 5 acronyms there. Bi is a big one covers alot of people that's true but i dont believe its 80% of the world like that public school i saw was but that was an isolated case.

I'm glad you can at least confirm that I'm not just crazy or bigoted thinking that kids kids often go with whatever is popular. That is a good question though what's wrong with that, what's wrong with acceptance? I think the answer for the most part is there isn't anything particularly wrong with it being tied into what's popular.

Im trying to think what my problem is with it and Maybe I just feel like it's easier to back out socially of something like being emo then 2 years later you're a hippy rather then telling everyone your gay for example and then 2 Years later you have to explain it was just a phase and your straight.

When I was a kid that would've A) been offensive to truly gay people that were born that way and B) ruined your potential relationships with girls that have thought you were gay for years. Maybe I feel like instead of reversing course in that situation that some kids would just continue to pretend they're gay until they're older and it makes more sense to their peers.

But I am realizing this is based on my experiences in a truly different time. Maybe it wouldn't ruin your romantic life to say your gay and then at some point say you're straight again. Maybe it wouldnt be offensive to gay people that were born that way. Maybe it is easier then I think for other kids to accept you being gay and then realizing you aren't. Hmmm certainly something to chew on


--------------------
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Zappa
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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Let's talk Trans issues and how people react to them (respectful) [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #28295018 - 04/25/23 04:28 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

The answer is 16, and it happened in Germany. The youngest permanent sex transition took place at the age of 16. And it wasn't a sweet 16 present either. If you wanna know exactly how many hoops she had to jump through... she's harder than most marines. It's a pretty interesting story.

The reason that I wanted you to do this exercise is to see the amount of BS you need to sift through to answer that question.

In this thread, we have had both Notsheekle and MagicMush come in here, see someone saying "this doesn't happen to kids, and is not as easy as you think it is" and respond with "kids are being transitioned before they're old enough to have sex!" Ignoring that child marriage (a) exists for pre-teens and (b) usually turns statch rape into marital bliss.

The entire point is that finding an answer for yourself allows you to further distinguish between facts and knee-jerk reactions, like the ones you see in this thread. This is good practice for the future.

Unfortunately, you are correct. Even innocent questions can get you painted with the bigot brush. For example, I am 100% convinced that pollution affects the sexual identification of children, and that a not insignificant amount of the increase in LGBT identifying youth can directly be linked to fossil fuel use. I have evidence to back this up, and it is an opinion that I stand by.

However, it is not an opinion I bring up very often, because on the surface it sounds like trans erasure.

This is where things like media literacy become important: the difference between "fuck you bigot" and a reasonable conversation is showing that you have done some of the background research, and that often lies in not making false claims.

For example, when I challenge shivas to explain anarchist theory in their own words, or challenge enlil to explain the fine points of the categorical imperative, this isn't because I am entirely unfamiliar with the topic...it is because I want to judge their familiarity, and respond in kind. In general, when I challenge someone to provide information, it is so that I can compete on the battlefield of their choice.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Let's talk Trans issues and how people react to them (respectful) [Re: Kryptos]
    #28295057 - 04/25/23 05:06 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Love is a battlefield, bruh.


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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Let's talk Trans issues and how people react to them (respectful) [Re: Kryptos]
    #28295068 - 04/25/23 05:17 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

"Ignoring that child marriage (a) exists for pre-teens and (b) usually turns statch rape into marital bliss."

This is why no one takes you seriously. You twist facts and incorporate bold-faced lies to get your points across


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Let's talk Trans issues and how people react to them (respectful) [Re: MagicMush123]
    #28295080 - 04/25/23 05:29 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

https://newrepublic.com/post/171843/missouri-republican-pushing-anti-trans-bill-defends-child-marriage

Well, some people might call that a direct quote from a republican state legislator, but sure. You can call it lies.


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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Let's talk Trans issues and how people react to them (respectful) [Re: Kryptos]
    #28295091 - 04/25/23 05:39 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Show me where it says that in Missouri pre-teens can get married


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Let's talk Trans issues and how people react to them (respectful) [Re: MagicMush123]
    #28295097 - 04/25/23 05:44 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)



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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Let's talk Trans issues and how people react to them (respectful) [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28295103 - 04/25/23 05:48 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

They changed the law to require a court order after public outcry a few years ago.

A law that the lawmaker in question opposed.

Tennessee really bring home the gold, they had three ten year old girls marry men in their mid 20s-early 30s in the last two decades.


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OfflineSeriously_trippin
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Re: Let's talk Trans issues and how people react to them (respectful) [Re: Kryptos]
    #28295110 - 04/25/23 05:51 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
The answer is 16, and it happened in Germany. The youngest permanent sex transition took place at the age of 16. And it wasn't a sweet 16 present either. If you wanna know exactly how many hoops she had to jump through... she's harder than most marines. It's a pretty interesting story.

The reason that I wanted you to do this exercise is to see the amount of BS you need to sift through to answer that question.

In this thread, we have had both Notsheekle and MagicMush come in here, see someone saying "this doesn't happen to kids, and is not as easy as you think it is" and respond with "kids are being transitioned before they're old enough to have sex!" Ignoring that child marriage (a) exists for pre-teens and (b) usually turns statch rape into marital bliss.

The entire point is that finding an answer for yourself allows you to further distinguish between facts and knee-jerk reactions, like the ones you see in this thread. This is good practice for the future.

Unfortunately, you are correct. Even innocent questions can get you painted with the bigot brush. For example, I am 100% convinced that pollution affects the sexual identification of children, and that a not insignificant amount of the increase in LGBT identifying youth can directly be linked to fossil fuel use. I have evidence to back this up, and it is an opinion that I stand by.

However, it is not an opinion I bring up very often, because on the surface it sounds like trans erasure.

This is where things like media literacy become important: the difference between "fuck you bigot" and a reasonable conversation is showing that you have done some of the background research, and that often lies in not making false claims.

For example, when I challenge shivas to explain anarchist theory in their own words, or challenge enlil to explain the fine points of the categorical imperative, this isn't because I am entirely unfamiliar with the topic...it is because I want to judge their familiarity, and respond in kind. In general, when I challenge someone to provide information, it is so that I can compete on the battlefield of their choice.



Wow 16 that is interesting. I'll have to look into that. I didn't mean to write you off but I'm fully aware of how hard it is to sift through searches to try and find that info.

It's always hard to admit that you're wrong and in your head one side makes more sense then the other to you, so for example when I was looking up whether kids regret transitioning by 18 it would've been really easy for me to ignore the NIH in favor of say NewsNation.Where they were giving testimonials of people that regretted transitioning and say see I'm right you're wrong.

With this question in particular i may have been able to find the answer quickly but That's what I feel is lacking when you try and have someone look it up for themselves is their own confirmation bias can dictate which sources they believe.So in your head you're like I did look that up and I saw the thing that agreed with me and not you. I do belive it's important to do your own research and if i was making a presentation about the subject I'd take however many hours nessicary to sift through sources, determine which are more credible then others etc but I haven't had the time to do that more then an hour or so yesterday.

I do get what you're saying though, It's just such a weird time we live in because even things that aren't controversial that I'm presented as a fact and I'm almost sure it's a credible source and I found the right answer, often I still don't fully believe it as fact anymore.

That's what I was driving at though is it is unfortunate that in your case as an example, someone that just spent a whole thread defending the lgbtq community, alot of people in the lgbtq community will see that theory about environmental pollution possibly playing a role in the increase of lgbtq youth and all of the sudden you're written off as someone who blindly hates lgbtq people. Because in your case I'd imagine they'd say "it's ignorant and toxic that you'd belive that lgbtq people weren't born that way and that it's a poisoning from pollution so youre just another homophobic bigot" When that's not what you said or meant. And then you spent tons of time defending people because it's the right thing to do but they still call you an enemy.

So I think one of the reasons (other then actual hate mongering) we've seen such an increase in hatred against the lgbtq community is the only people that will talk with someone who has disagreements on certain lgbtq issues is people that really do hate lgbtq people and since those are the only people who seem to be able to understand where you're coming from you're more likely to start believing things they belive that you didnt before. Truly hateful things.

In that way I feel like those loud voices calling everyone that doesn't agree with everything they believe a transphobe or homophobe are deeply hurting the cause of regular lgbtq people and the cause as a whole


--------------------
R.I.P
Zombi3, Blue Helix
Modest Mouse
Zappa
Slothie
That Kid With The face
ShLong
Le Canard
split_by_nine
& Big Worm Forever
Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many :heart:


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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Let's talk Trans issues and how people react to them (respectful) [Re: Kryptos]
    #28295118 - 04/25/23 05:55 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Applicants wishing to apply who are younger than 15 must obtain a circuit court order.




Links broken

Quote:

Kryptos said:
They changed the law to require a court order after public outcry a few years ago.

A law that the lawmaker in question opposed.

Tennessee really bring home the gold, they had three ten year old girls marry men in their mid 20s-early 30s in the last two decades.




So let me get this straight, your logic is that stupid shit(a) exists so we must let stupid shit(b) to exist too. Are you really that dumb?


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Let's talk Trans issues and how people react to them (respectful) [Re: Kryptos]
    #28295125 - 04/25/23 05:59 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
They changed the law to require a court order after public outcry a few years ago.

A law that the lawmaker in question opposed.

Tennessee really bring home the gold, they had three ten year old girls marry men in their mid 20s-early 30s in the last two decades.




Either way, it's still possible for preteens to marry in Missouri


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OfflineSeriously_trippin
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Re: Let's talk Trans issues and how people react to them (respectful) [Re: MagicMush123]
    #28295135 - 04/25/23 06:09 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:

Oh, and anyone that is simultaneously concerned about children doing permanent damage to their bodies and against puberty blockers (which prevent irreversible changes to the body) is a hypocrite. That's really how you can tell that anti trans people have no legitimate concerns besides "I think those people are icky and should therefore be killed".




Children cant stay at home alone because not mature enough. Cant get tattoos, drink alcohol, smoke, drive a car, vote, consent to sex, aren't tried as adults because its universally accepted that their brains aren't developed enough to fully comprehend and make properly informed decisions. But you're a bigot if you think a child's too young to change their gender



A question to you because i have thought this way too and still hold some of those beliefs is if it's not a permanent change, let's say they just identify as trans no hormone blockers, no surgeries what harm does it really do?

It really is not easy to get something like hormone blockers, it is a rigorous process even before this thread i knew that. And from earlier research I've done there's not alot of those cases. It exists but isn't prevalent by any means


I think in your mind people who support Trans kids support full on surgical transitioning which you don't believe in and honestly I don't either I think surgery is too radical for someone under 18 for those reasons you gave. But the reality is that's an almost non existent phenomenon especially in the US so youre hearing about trans kids and in your head they're permanently transitioning these kids and that's something you're against. But that's not actually happening barely at all.

It's mainly just kids identifying as trans and occasionally going through all the hoops to get hormone blockers.

So I guess my question to you is let's say the transition isn't permanent and can be reversed at any time, do you still feel the same way?


--------------------
R.I.P
Zombi3, Blue Helix
Modest Mouse
Zappa
Slothie
That Kid With The face
ShLong
Le Canard
split_by_nine
& Big Worm Forever
Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many :heart:


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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Let's talk Trans issues and how people react to them (respectful) [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28295149 - 04/25/23 06:25 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
They changed the law to require a court order after public outcry a few years ago.

A law that the lawmaker in question opposed.

Tennessee really bring home the gold, they had three ten year old girls marry men in their mid 20s-early 30s in the last two decades.




Either way, it's still possible for preteens to marry in Missouri




Whats disturbing is that people are actually trying to promote "trans children" as a normal beautiful thing. People are actually advocating that pre-teens/teens should be able to artificially change their bodies and brain chemistry to conform to whichever gender they identify with. Contrary theres no popular opinion going around that pre/teens should be getting married to older men/women.


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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Let's talk Trans issues and how people react to them (respectful) [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #28295167 - 04/25/23 06:40 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Im agianst all elective surgeries for kids/teenagers. For the most part i think of it as child abuse and definitely not healthy. As for kids identifying as "trans", i think it shouldn't be encouraged but they shouldn't be stopped. As long as you're not taking pills/hormones to alter your development, i think its fine and it doesn't hurt anyone. But then agian, i dont think that if a kid says hes trans that he should be identified as a girl and be able play on girl sports teams or use women's washrooms etc. People should be free to "identify" however they want as long as they're not hurting themselves or impacting people, ie; being malicious with their trans identity or by hurting their development by artificially changing their brain chemistry/body with hormones/blockers


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Let's talk Trans issues and how people react to them (respectful) [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #28295205 - 04/25/23 07:24 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
With this question in particular i may have been able to find the answer quickly but That's what I feel is lacking when you try and have someone look it up for themselves is their own confirmation bias can dictate which sources they believe.So in your head you're like I did look that up and I saw the thing that agreed with me and not you. I do belive it's important to do your own research and if i was making a presentation about the subject I'd take however many hours nessicary to sift through sources, determine which are more credible then others etc but I haven't had the time to do that more then an hour or so yesterday.




It's weird that I always specified permanent, isn't it? Like, it is heavily implied, since we're talking about kids transitioning genders, so why add the extra word?

One of the fun things about using imprecise language is that it allows a variety of thought. So. Are we concerned about kids transitioning genders...Surgically? Socially? Metaphorically?

I think each of those merits a different level of concern. A boy playing a female role in a play on stage, versus someone who once identified as a boy asking people to call her she, versus a 20 year old man who has spent the last ten years of his life in one of the previous two roles, and has now decided to pay a surgeon to invert his penis...those are three very, very, very different scenarios.

But some people have a vested interest in making that all too complicated. It muddies the waters.  And when the waters are muddy, it's easier to toss the baby with the bathwater. I mean, read my previous hypothetical in reverse: an eight year old boy got surgery to invert his penis, had to identify as a girl against his will to get any sort of acceptance after his mistake, and is now relegated to being a shit-tier local actor pretending to be a woman? That would be terrible!

Control of language is control of the mind. There are certain thoughts that I am absolutely incapable of having in English. There are certain thoughts I am absolutely incapable of having in Russian. There are thoughts I require other languages for. Like this one, actually, but I will do my best: When you have an idea, your brain begins to interpret it*, and the easiest way to do so is words. That is, after all, how you communicate. But what happens when you don't have the right words? You use similar words. You do your best. but all of those words that you do your best with have their own meanings. And by substituting those meanings, you actually change your entire interpretation* of your previous idea. Your current, everyday, shit that has built up over the decades, gets in the way.

And changing that language is the most valuable industry in the world. Did they cry? Did they sob? Did they wail in despair? Is there a difference? Pay attention to the words people use.

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
That's what I was driving at though is it is unfortunate that in your case as an example, someone that just spent a whole thread defending the lgbtq community, alot of people in the lgbtq community will see that theory about environmental pollution possibly playing a role in the increase of lgbtq youth and all of the sudden you're written off as someone who blindly hates lgbtq people. Because in your case I'd imagine they'd say "it's ignorant and toxic that you'd belive that lgbtq people weren't born that way and that it's a poisoning from pollution so youre just another homophobic bigot" When that's not what you said or meant. And then you spent tons of time defending people because it's the right thing to do but they still call you an enemy.




They are not wrong to do so. I am not a PR department. I am not part of the LGBTQ community. I have no right to speak on their behalf. I make no secret of my beliefs, I think many regulars are aware that I think there is a connection between exposure to EDCs and gender variability in the population, but I am also keenly aware of how my words can be misinterpreted. And words matter. Things is, they matter a whole lot more to the actual LGBTQ community, than they could ever matter to me.

Anyway, two ears, one mouth. As far as I know, some of the DEI, ESG, ect. stuff? I think one of the messages is for straight white guys like me to just shut up and listen for a bit. We are new to this. They live it every day. We come off as a bit clueless, and often tone-deaf.


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