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tekramrepus


Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 2,253
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I believe that humans never directly experience reality. This is why. 4
#28277814 - 04/14/23 05:54 PM (9 months, 9 days ago) |
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It is my belief that humans do not directly experience reality. Not you. Not me. We know that our body uses our sensory organs to extract information from our environment. We then send this information, via the nervous system, to our brain to be processed. Our brain then uses this information, and creates an 'experience' such as a sound, a sight, a sensation, etc.
The only thing we are actually 'experiencing' is the movie our brain creates....from the data it gathers externally. However, we, the viewer, are basically watching a movie....and we've never really experienced the raw data that our sensory organs are picking up.
Furthermore, even if we DID experience the 'raw data', we would still be experiencing it via the medium of our brain - and therefore again have no direct experience with reality.
To this end, I believe reality itself does not reveal itself to us directly.
What do you guys think?
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
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Re: I believe that humans never directly experience reality. This is why. [Re: tekramrepus] 2
#28277845 - 04/14/23 06:14 PM (9 months, 9 days ago) |
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For all intents and purposes, you are right. However, some experiences, via high-dose psychedelics or robust yogas, can show us that the DNA-Brain prison can be unlocked, and that objective reality does exist. There are a lot of hippy-dippy terms for this, like "all is one" or "cosmic consciousness," but it is my experience that we can, very fleetingly, experience the conscious nonlocality inherent in the fabric of Nature.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: I believe that humans never directly experience reality. This is why. [Re: DividedQuantum]
#28277878 - 04/14/23 06:40 PM (9 months, 9 days ago) |
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We are not just experiencing reality, we are reality. It's not just a direct experience, it's an intimate experience. People generally run away from it. They may say they want it, but much of what they do is to avoid reality. Instead of experiencing it directly people invest themselves in various delusions. It's a very human thing to do but if that's all one does it can begin to feel like being on the inside looking out and not being immersed in what is outside. A prisoner of the mind. This to is a direct experience, just a very limited one. We were not meant to be so isolated, safe, dwelling on meaning, reason, purpose without answers.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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thetruthsohelp
Stranger

Registered: 03/17/22
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Re: I believe that humans never directly experience reality. This is why. [Re: Rahz]
#28277922 - 04/14/23 07:13 PM (9 months, 9 days ago) |
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What else are we experiencing if not reality?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: I believe that humans never directly experience reality. This is why. [Re: tekramrepus]
#28278014 - 04/14/23 08:29 PM (9 months, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
tekramrepus said: It is my belief that humans do not directly experience reality. Not you. Not me. We know that our body uses our sensory organs to extract information from our environment. We then send this information, via the nervous system, to our brain to be processed. Our brain then uses this information, and creates an 'experience' such as a sound, a sight, a sensation, etc.
The only thing we are actually 'experiencing' is the movie our brain creates....from the data it gathers externally. However, we, the viewer, are basically watching a movie....and we've never really experienced the raw data that our sensory organs are picking up.
Furthermore, even if we DID experience the 'raw data', we would still be experiencing it via the medium of our brain - and therefore again have no direct experience with reality.
To this end, I believe reality itself does not reveal itself to us directly.
What do you guys think?
while I think you have a simplified notion, it is largely correct, except for the we. we are not doing any of it. we are just the reflexes of it happening. whatever it is is the we; we are the body and the brain and all the mental contents including the sensory signals and any reflexes upon the mental contents from memory reality is a social convention that aids collaboration with others in the same predicament, or not. still it's worth the effort to be able to agree on some things.
consensual reality fits there conveniently.
most of us seem to see it fairly much similar - so you could say that that is the reality of our reality here.
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BrendanFlock
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Re: I believe that humans never directly experience reality. This is why. [Re: redgreenvines]
#28278173 - 04/14/23 10:52 PM (9 months, 9 days ago) |
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I think there are avenues of existence that we can't understand via the bodies senses..
But I do think we are experiencing a portion of real reality..
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: I believe that humans never directly experience reality. This is why. [Re: BrendanFlock]
#28278325 - 04/15/23 03:58 AM (9 months, 9 days ago) |
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whatever we can make sense out of, perhaps.
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tekramrepus


Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 2,253
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Re: I believe that humans never directly experience reality. This is why. [Re: thetruthsohelp]
#28278395 - 04/15/23 05:29 AM (9 months, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
thetruthsohelp said: What else are we experiencing if not reality?
I said we aren't experiencing reality DIRECTLY. As in, our perception/experience is never direct....
What we actually experience, in my opinion? Have you ever seen a kid use a flashlight or light source and his hands to project "animals" on a wall? When you look at the wall, you see cool animal shapes....but you aren't actually seeing the animals, nor the source of the animals (unless you look at his hands of course). You are seeing a projection, a mixture of movement (vibration) and light..... and that creates an image.
So to answer your question, what do humans experience...... I believe we experience the "shadow" of reality..... we experience our brains interpretation of the data it gathers from the world around it.....along with our inner dialogue.
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tekramrepus


Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 2,253
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Re: I believe that humans never directly experience reality. This is why. [Re: BrendanFlock]
#28278399 - 04/15/23 05:32 AM (9 months, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
BrendanFlock said: I think there are avenues of existence that we can't understand via the bodies senses..
But I do think we are experiencing a portion of real reality..
A portion of real reality? I can sort of agree with that.
My main topic though is really about how we interface with the external world.
When we are playing a video game..... are we reading code? Are we viewing the source code directly.....or are we playing with moving images and sounds created by the source code?
When we experience "reality" through our 5 sensory organs.....it is scientifically understood that we are not experiencing them "directly".....but rather, our brain is processing this information, and creating a picture of reality for us.
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tekramrepus


Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 2,253
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Re: I believe that humans never directly experience reality. This is why. [Re: DividedQuantum]
#28278407 - 04/15/23 05:37 AM (9 months, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: For all intents and purposes, you are right. However, some experiences, via high-dose psychedelics or robust yogas, can show us that the DNA-Brain prison can be unlocked, and that objective reality does exist. There are a lot of hippy-dippy terms for this, like "all is one" or "cosmic consciousness," but it is my experience that we can, very fleetingly, experience the conscious nonlocality inherent in the fabric of Nature.
I can absolutely agree with this.
Our brain, is a tool - and unfortunately we were never given the instruction manual for planet earth, nor for our bodies/flesh vehicles.
I do believe it is possible, with plant medicine, or spiritual exercises, to interface with reality differently. I still am not entirely convinced we can ever DIRECTLY experience reality, however.
Here's another way of putting it:
No living physical beings are able to directly experience reality....... because the only way they interface with reality is via sensory organs...... and all sensory organs relay information to brains....and the brains create/process that information.
Its like watching youtube videos.....you are watching videos that are edited, cleaned up, etc - you aren't see the 'raw video'. Our brains do that.
We are also limited by our sensory organs.....humans have 5 sensory organs....and therefore, we understand and relate to the external world through these 5 organs..... we can't really perceive reality outside of these 5 sensory organs.
There are probably an infinite array of sensory organs , but we will never see reality out of them because we don't have them.
Unfortunately, our brains also process out "useless information". When our brains get certain data from our sensory organs that it feels is useless, it will sometimes filter out this information, in other words....it deletes this information before we get to see/experience it. So there are sounds, sights, sensations, that our brain will literally filter out before we can experience them.
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tekramrepus


Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 2,253
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Re: I believe that humans never directly experience reality. This is why. [Re: thetruthsohelp]
#28278415 - 04/15/23 05:41 AM (9 months, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
thetruthsohelp said: What else are we experiencing if not reality?
When I say reality - I mean it in simplistic terms. The external world. Everything that is outside of us (obviously we are a part of reality too, but in THIS context, I'm referring to external reality).
My theory is that any being that uses sensory organs to interface with reality(the external world), never directly experiences reality(the external world), because thats not how our bodies/minds work. Science shows us that our external organs gather information, send them up our nervous systems to our brain....and our brain compiles that information into a graphical user interface.
For instance, its like programming in visual basic. When you compile code, and you create a program.....is a person actually viewing the code in its raw form? No......its viewing a compiled GUI. Thats what I mean.
Sure, the "program" is still "real". its just not the raw form of the source code, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
What humans experience is still reality, of course - its just not a direct, unadultered version of it. Its the subjective reality our brains create based on the data it receives.
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: I believe that humans never directly experience reality. This is why. [Re: tekramrepus] 1
#28278446 - 04/15/23 06:14 AM (9 months, 9 days ago) |
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All taking place on the stage of 'I', reality looking for itself?
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


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Re: I believe that humans never directly experience reality. This is why. [Re: syncro]
#28279483 - 04/15/23 06:48 PM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
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So what we experience through the body is a filtered version of reality then?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: I believe that humans never directly experience reality. This is why. [Re: tekramrepus]
#28279540 - 04/15/23 07:35 PM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
tekramrepus said: ... My theory is that any being that uses sensory organs to interface with reality(the external world), never directly experiences reality(the external world), because thats not how our bodies/minds work. Science shows us that our external organs gather information, send them up our nervous systems to our brain....and our brain compiles that information into a graphical user interface. ....
this is a bit distorted. think about it, for whom would it be providing an interface.
your acquired experience (memory) is what gives meaning to what you sense and how you reflexively respond to context and current and recent mental contents.
there is nobody else using you or your mind (brain) as a graphical interface to the world.
in fact everything you are thinking and doing is reflexively based upon who you have been and what you have been up to until this moment - that is both the essential nature of the annatta concept in Buddhism (intuited by insight meditation recorded over centuries) and it is how we are put together if you analyze how things are connected in the brain neurologically.
Using computer terms to analyze mind will just mess things up worse. the brain is not like a computer.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: I believe that humans never directly experience reality. This is why. [Re: tekramrepus]
#28279581 - 04/15/23 08:11 PM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
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I would've thought the sight is the information, not experiencing the sensory data we pick up sounds empty to me. Kind of glossing over the complexity of experience.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Lucis
Nutritional Yeast

Registered: 03/28/15
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Re: I believe that humans never directly experience reality. This is why. [Re: tekramrepus]
#28279854 - 04/16/23 12:22 AM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
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I have been on a trip researching qualia recently, I am curious if life is just made up of numerous qualia. Your words remind me of what I have been thinking.
I thought the other day that if life is made up of qualia then death would have to be made up of numerous qualia too, so then dying is just those experiences which make up the act of dying, the qualia of dying, and there is no death because we just go though those experiences then wake up someplace else, the waking up someplace else is just the quale/qualia associated with being reincarnated, born again, etc, and might explain why certain individuals feel like they have been here before, because they have experienced certain qualia with another life at another time which are similar.
Qualia associated with dying can be read about in NDE (near death experience) studies, atheists, theists, agnostics, etc, all experience many of the same or similar qualia while dying which is fascinating.
Maybe all is really one!
This is probably a strange idea to some, but I find studying consciousness to be illuminating!
-------------------- ©️
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: I believe that humans never directly experience reality. This is why. [Re: Lucis] 1
#28279882 - 04/16/23 01:13 AM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
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Anything that advocates there is life after death is as scam in my view.
I've been in a coma before and there's nothing to make of it.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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tekramrepus


Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 2,253
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Re: I believe that humans never directly experience reality. This is why. [Re: BrendanFlock]
#28280299 - 04/16/23 09:50 AM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
BrendanFlock said: So what we experience through the body is a filtered version of reality then?
YES! Exactly this!
The reality that 'you' or 'I' experience.....is basically a graphical user interface that our brain creates.....in order for us to survive, reproduce, and interact with our environment.
This is why I believe younger children are more 'psychic' , as some people claim. Its because the 'filter' our brain creates isn't tuned in yet....and so less stuff is being filtered. Therefore, children are more likely to intuitively experience non physical entities, or things WE consider paranormal. Paranormal is really just "that which isn't the norm" - ie, things our brains usually filter out.
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tekramrepus


Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 2,253
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Re: I believe that humans never directly experience reality. This is why. [Re: redgreenvines]
#28280314 - 04/16/23 09:57 AM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
tekramrepus said: ... My theory is that any being that uses sensory organs to interface with reality(the external world), never directly experiences reality(the external world), because thats not how our bodies/minds work. Science shows us that our external organs gather information, send them up our nervous systems to our brain....and our brain compiles that information into a graphical user interface. ....
this is a bit distorted. think about it, for whom would it be providing an interface.
your acquired experience (memory) is what gives meaning to what you sense and how you reflexively respond to context and current and recent mental contents.
there is nobody else using you or your mind (brain) as a graphical interface to the world.
in fact everything you are thinking and doing is reflexively based upon who you have been and what you have been up to until this moment - that is both the essential nature of the annatta concept in Buddhism (intuited by insight meditation recorded over centuries) and it is how we are put together if you analyze how things are connected in the brain neurologically.
Using computer terms to analyze mind will just mess things up worse. the brain is not like a computer.
IMO, the brain is actually very much like a computer. In fact, this is why certain things like mandalas, symbols, chants, affirmations, etc work so well. Its a form of programming.
But staying back on topic - I'm not sure anything you said really explains why my theory doesnt work.
The brain provides the interface for YOU - for consciousness. As a human, IMO, we are a spirit > mind > body complex. You have the spirit (consciousness), the mind/emotions (brain), and the physical body. They all work together as one unit.
Even if you don't believe in a spirit....then just replace that with consciousness.
My point is is really quite simple though, and I think you are sort of maybe over looking the simplicity of it.
The point is, any living being is limited to experiencing reality based on the limitations of the input systems. As a living mammal on earth, we have sensory organs (our input systems), and that's how we gather information. When we gather information, our brain processes that information, and then AFTER that, we see the 'feed'.
We scientifically know this a fact. That's why , for instance, a person can experience extreme HOT, or extreme COLD - without any temperature fluctuations. Its why a person can experience a phantom limb. Its why people can have visual or auditory hallucinations. Its because we aren't directly experiencing reality..... we are experiencing our brain, processing information, and creating a 'feed'.
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tekramrepus


Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 2,253
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Re: I believe that humans never directly experience reality. This is why. [Re: sudly]
#28280321 - 04/16/23 10:03 AM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Anything that advocates there is life after death is as scam in my view.
I've been in a coma before and there's nothing to make of it.
How do you know there was nothing to make it? I've been sleeping before, and "didn't dream". Of course, we scientifically know that we dream every night....but I didn't REMEMBER my dreams, and so I thought "I didn't dream".
How many times do you here someone say they don't dream? I don't think they are lying....they just simply don't remember their dreams.
Even if they themselves didn't actually dream - let's say somehow they weren't actually dreaming.....does that mean dreams don't exist?
Many people have died, and come back to life, and have experienced what it was like to leave the body and enter into various realms. I personally have left the body many times , in order to explore other places.
I also had someone VERY close to me enter into my dream right after he died.... and let me know he was leaving, and I went into a tunnel like thing with him, and had to let go. I woke up to my phone ringing, which was someone in real life letting me know this person had passed. It was a personal experience that proved to me that life exists after death.
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