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Bigbadwooof
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Cuba
#28274368 - 04/12/23 12:10 PM (9 months, 11 days ago) |
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Cuba has Universal Healthcare.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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koods
Ribbit



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And that’s about all it has.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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mushboy
modboy



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Re: Cuba [Re: koods]
#28274382 - 04/12/23 12:21 PM (9 months, 11 days ago) |
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Cubans wait in lines for hours to get a bottle of subsidized cooking oil or some chicken. “Since you wake up, you are always thinking, what can you eat, where can you find food?” said Perdomo, 28, a manicurist. Milk is among the hardest-to-find products.
sounds like a blast.
Importing 70% of your food gets expensive and Cuba is poor. Bad mix but at least you can die of starvation in a hospital for free.
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Kryptos
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And what, 50 miles north? We pour milk onto the ground under the watchful eyes of armed guards (to prevent theft of milk poured onto the ground, obviously) in an effort to keep milk prices high enough to make the dairy industry profitable.
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rxb
n00b-sabot



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Re: Cuba [Re: koods]
#28274439 - 04/12/23 01:10 PM (9 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: And that’s about all it has.
dont forget the cabana boys!
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: Cuba [Re: rxb]
#28274444 - 04/12/23 01:16 PM (9 months, 11 days ago) |
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This thread is a catfish. A big fat catfish.
Yall a bunch of noodlers.
Change your shroomery titles to "Catfished Noodler" immediately.
Thanks.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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thetruthsohelp
Stranger

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The thing about the 'Socialist utopia of Cuba' that all Che t-shirt wearing ignormouses miss is there arent any boats going the other way from the US to Cuba for their amazing healthcare are there?
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Bigbadwooof
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Quote:
thetruthsohelp said: The thing about the 'Socialist utopia of Cuba' that all Che t-shirt wearing ignormouses miss is there arent any boats going the other way from the US to Cuba for their amazing healthcare are there?
My last post makes your post unnecessary.
Observe my last post, and change your title at once.
By the way, I still love the revolutionary spirit of che and company. It's an example of good intentions gone awry, I feel. An example that the ends don't justify the means also. America was founded on the same kind of spirit... We just followed a different trajectory.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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mushboy
modboy



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so you made a troll thread?
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mycosis


Registered: 08/20/07
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A Cuban sandwich wouldn’t stand a chance in front of me right now.
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The Ecstatic
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Cuba is poor because the most powerful nation on earth has waged an illegal blockade of the island for 75 years authoritarian gommunism.
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



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Quote:
mushboy said: so you made a troll thread?

I stand by my statements. Cuba has healthcare. If they can do it, so can we!
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Cuba is poor because the most powerful nation on earth has waged an illegal blockade of the island for 75 years authoritarian gommunism.
Tankie
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
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Che Guevara was a great man. I'd sport that t-shirt, but I doubt he'd appreciate it too much.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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thetruthsohelp
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He was a mass murdering psychopath who relished in murdering his political opponents whom he had imprisoned.
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Bigbadwooof
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Quote:
thetruthsohelp said: He was a mass murdering psychopath who relished in murdering his political opponents whom he had imprisoned.
As if they were saints.
He was a man with the courage of his convictions.
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thetruthsohelp
Stranger

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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
thetruthsohelp said: He was a mass murdering psychopath who relished in murdering his political opponents whom he had imprisoned.
He was a man with the courage of his convictions.
So was Hitler.
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



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Quote:
thetruthsohelp said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
thetruthsohelp said: He was a mass murdering psychopath who relished in murdering his political opponents whom he had imprisoned.
He was a man with the courage of his convictions.
So was Hitler.
Che was altruistic. It's no different than George Washington in my book.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Psilynut2
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It's illegal for Cubans to criticize the Cuban govt online ....
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thetruthsohelp
Stranger

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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
thetruthsohelp said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
thetruthsohelp said: He was a mass murdering psychopath who relished in murdering his political opponents whom he had imprisoned.
He was a man with the courage of his convictions.
So was Hitler.
Che was altruistic. It's no different than George Washington in my book.
I thought altruism was about love thy neighbor, not murder systematically my neighbors because they spoke out against thy new authoritarian regime?
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The Ecstatic
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It’s true, Che and Fidel should’ve let the CIA dismantle their revolution that way nobody on a mushroom forum would have a negative opinion about them.
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rxb
n00b-sabot



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canadians vacation in cuba alot.
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



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Quote:
thetruthsohelp said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
thetruthsohelp said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
He was a man with the courage of his convictions.
So was Hitler.
Che was altruistic. It's no different than George Washington in my book.
I thought altruism was about love thy neighbor, not murder systematically my neighbors because they spoke out against thy new authoritarian regime?
I'm curious what you think of the French Revolution. Some 20,000 people executed... Hundreds of thousands imprisoned..
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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The Ecstatic
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Those were bourgeois white people so clearly that revolution is good and violence was warranted.
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Bigbadwooof
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Those were bourgeois white people so clearly that revolution is good and violence was warranted.
Waaait a miiinute... I think most of the people that were killed were killed because of mass hysteria and essentially 'witch hunts' for counter-revolutionaries, just like the Cuban Revolution, although the Cubans were generally more justified in most of the killings they committed, and it was far fewer.
They weren't all bourgeois or even mostly.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (04/12/23 03:22 PM)
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thetruthsohelp
Stranger

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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: It’s true, Che and Fidel should’ve let the CIA dismantle their revolution that way nobody on a mushroom forum would have a negative opinion about them.
Convenient that anyone who disagrees with an authoritarian communist regime is automatically a CIA agent or asset worthy only of extermination.
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The Ecstatic
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No not anyone, just most of the power against them.
There are always going to be people who favored the prior regime (the military dictatorship) and there are always going to be people who don’t want anything to change regardless. It’s true of every single revolution of history. It’s just a lazy way to condemn communism by saying “ah they were against the people they overthrew.” Yeah no shit.
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thetruthsohelp
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Quote:
I'm curious what you think of the French Revolution. Some 20,000 people executed... Hundreds of thousands imprisoned..
The French revolution was bloody as all hell. I don't think for a second that the amount of bloodshed and terror and utter insanity was worth it in the long run, for the purpose of getting rid of serfdom. After the Jacobins got into power in France, man was that even more fucked up. Revolutions are always bloody and its a rareity (The American Revolution being one of the very few that actually delivered liberty to the opressed) for the fight to be worth it, generally due to the ideological ferver and pathological powerlust of said revolutionaries.
But again we are comparing apples to oranges because of a really useful thing called *context*. The politics at that time of the French revolution was very different to this past century. As for its ideas, it was a mixed bag.
One thing is for sure though, when it comes to specifically communist revolutions, The Russian revolution is an excellent example of how a revolution against opressors can result in a much worse oppression for everyone in a country when that evil ideology is impposed. We should compare oranges to oranges. Every single communist revolution in history has an immense body count and results in nothing but tyranny and opression. Cuba is no different.
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Bigbadwooof
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Quote:
thetruthsohelp said:
Quote:
I'm curious what you think of the French Revolution. Some 20,000 people executed... Hundreds of thousands imprisoned..
The French revolution was bloody as all hell. I don't think for a second that the amount of bloodshed and terror and utter insanity was worth it in the long run, for the purpose of getting rid of serfdom. After the Jacobins got into power in France, man was that even more fucked up. Revolutions are always bloody and its a rareity (The American Revolution being one of the very few that actually delivered liberty to the opressed) for the fight to be worth it, generally due to the ideological ferver and pathological powerlust of said revolutionaries.
Interesting. I wasn't expecting this response. You might be right. Capitalism leads to the same situation as serfdom, eventually, anyway.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Ice9
3X Ban Lotto Champion



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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Those were bourgeois white people so clearly that revolution is good and violence was warranted.
This is precisely the opposite that you have said about Yemen and Ukraine. So which is it?
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Re: Cuba [Re: Ice9] 1
#28275047 - 04/12/23 08:48 PM (9 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
Ice9 said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Those were bourgeois white people so clearly that revolution is good and violence was warranted.
This is precisely the opposite that you have said about Yemen and Ukraine. So which is it?
I’m being sarcastic.
The French Revolution, while good, was ultimately a bourgeois revolution of white Europeans, much like ours.
I’m not sure I’d classify either Ukraine or Yemen as a revolution, as they’re both basically civil wars.
I’ve said it before, but I absolutely think using violence to earn freedom is warranted. Pre-revolutionary Cuba was obscenely exploitative, they had slave plantations for God’s sake. Are we going to now condemn Harriet Tubman because she might have killed some slave patrollers on the Underground Railroad?
Of course not, because our history is pristine and dignified and a long arc bending towards justice and all that garbage. But we can’t say Cuba was wrong to overthrow a military dictatorship, so we have to say “oh well, the way they did it was wrong.” Bullshit.
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Kryptos
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Wait, there was a revolution in Ukraine?
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Bigbadwooof
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Quote:
Kryptos said: Wait, there was a revolution in Ukraine?
Ukraine has 365 to 366 revolutions every year dude. Pretty radical, huh?
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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336
menehune


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Just to brag, the top General of Cuba is my relative.
Corps General Abelardo Colomé Ibarra (born 13 September 1939 in Santiago de Cuba, Oriente Province, Cuba) was a Vice President of the Council of State of Cuba and the Cuban Minister of the Interior, serving in the latter position from 1989, until his retirement in October, 2015. Known as Furry he first laid the foundations of State Security in 1959.
Career Ibarra was a founding member of the 26th of July Movement. Following the collapse of the Batista regime in Cuba, Ibarra attempted to organise Cuban military expeditions to help local revolutionaries overthrow the governments of Bolivia and Argentina.[1] In December 1975, he was named the head of the first Cuban military mission to Angola.[1] Ibarra reportedly drove to the Cuban and Angolan front lines to personally supervise the defence against National Union for the Total Independence of Angola (UNITA) forces, backed by invading South African troops.[1]
Ibarra is a member of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Cuba. He bears the title Hero of the Republic of Cuba, and holds the Order of Máximo Gómez in recognition of, in Fidel Castro's own words, "his extraordinary merits in the insurrectional struggle against the tyranny and the imperialist neocolonial domination, the struggle for the consolidation and defense of the socialist state, and the accomplishment of heroic internationalist missions."
Victory of the Cuban Revolution At the victory of the Cuban Revolution, in April 1959 Abelardo was appointed Chief of the Intelligence Directorate of the Rebel Army. He was part of Fidel Castro's support after the visit of the United Nations Organization.
It is believed that it was Colomé Ibarra who informed Fidel Castro in Havana that Hubert Matos would take up arms. In 1961, Efigenio Ameijeiras requested his support for the National Revolutionary Police, where he assumed the leadership of the Motorized Police, the same with which he fought during the Invasion of the Bay of Pigs.
In 1962 he began to work in the Military Counterintelligence of the Armed Forces, fulfilling internationalist combat missions in Bolivia and Argentina, where he entered with a false Algerian passport to meet Jorge Masetti. In Bolivia, he bought a 4-hectare farm in Cochabamba, close to Emborozu, south of Tarijas and close to Argentina.
He fought alongside Samuel Rodiles Planas and Raúl Díaz-Argüelles in the Cuban military brigade in Algeria, participating in the same way in the preparation of the guerrillas that fought with Che Guevara in the Congo, former Zaire in addition to getting involved in the organization of guerrilla groups in Guinea-Bissau for the African Party for the Independence of Guinea and Cape Verde.
Colomé participated in the location of military and intelligence devices in South Yemen and Somalia, in addition to fulfilling infiltration and combat missions from Mexico and Central America to Venezuela.
He was Division Chief in the Eastern Army, participating in Operation Mambí in 1968. He organized the Northern Army Corps in Holguín until his appointment as Head of the Directorate of Military Counterintelligence. In 1972, he was appointed Vice Minister of the Armed Forces with powers to replace Minister Raúl Castro in his absence. In 1975, on the death of Raúl Díaz-Argüelles in Angola, he was sent to combat replacing him against South African forces and UNITA. In 1976 he was Military Chief of all Cuban troops in Angola.
Colomé was Head of the 10th. Directorate of Military Intelligence. He was in charge of the espionage carried out between the socialist countries and members of NATO. Colomé Ibarra was in charge of carrying out the investigations and arrests in the case of General Arnaldo Ochoa Sánchez. After the trial against General José Abrantes, he was appointed Minister of the Interior until October 26, 2015, when he requested his resignation, in a letter sent to President Raúl. The Council of State agreed to award him with the First Degree Order for the Service to the Fatherland for his standard career.
-------------------- "Love is seeing the unity under the imaginary diversity."
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336]
#28276977 - 04/14/23 07:54 AM (9 months, 9 days ago) |
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Wow, that's really cool man! I have a lot of respect for revolutionaries, even if things do go wrong! I love the spirit of it.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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336
menehune


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yeah sadly they ran the country into the ground from what I have seen / heard. at least for the majority of people, perhaps not the rich and the tourists. instead of true communism it seems all the people of Cuba got was a different form of dictatorship and monopolization.
-------------------- "Love is seeing the unity under the imaginary diversity."
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336] 1
#28281674 - 04/17/23 07:35 AM (9 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
336 said: yeah sadly they ran the country into the ground from what I have seen / heard. at least for the majority of people, perhaps not the rich and the tourists. instead of true communism it seems all the people of Cuba got was a different form of dictatorship and monopolization.
They have better healthcare outcomes, longer life expectancy, less infant mortality than the US. Just sayin.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Sulfurshelfsean
Defender of Cubes


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I used to hang with a bunch of Cubans. Shit got dramatic in that friend group but it was cool to hear varying degrees of approval and disapproval of their govt. The one dude I knew claimed his father was a general during the revolution. He loved it in Cuba, felt like everything was provided for you etc. His current wife also said she loved Cuba but you weren't aloud to learn anything outside of what they wanted you to and although your basic needs were covered there was very little mobility for those outside of what sounded almost like a cast system to me.its all give and take I suppose.
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   Everything is better when it is done ON TOP OF A MOUNTAIN!
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336
menehune


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@Bigbadwooof; check this video and then tell me Cuba is doing great
That said, from what I can tell there are very luxurious places for tourists and the rich. Not sure how that fits into Communism... Sure does fit in with dictatorship though...
@Sulfurshelfsean yah Cubans are dramatic as fuck. trust me, my family is crazy. lmao. but yah one of my aunties went back and asked people about our last name and she said some people said it meant "face of an ass", which probably has something to do with their dislike of General Colome Ibarra and the regime in general.
-------------------- "Love is seeing the unity under the imaginary diversity."
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rxb
n00b-sabot



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Re: Cuba [Re: 336] 1
#28283204 - 04/18/23 05:48 AM (9 months, 5 days ago) |
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i wouldnt put alot of credit into videos showing poor conditions in cuba, the people that make them ALSO have agendas.
poverty exists everywhere, you could take video of the USA that looks worse in any state.
that isnt to say that cuba is doing great, just that the camera only films what its pointed at take a camera to mississippi or texas and you can see abject poverty and starvation too, it doesnt mean anything about the situation as a whole.
across from nathans famous original coney island spot, 10 years ago were buildings which were in HORRIBLE shape being squatted in by homeless, looking worse than those buildings in cuba in many cases, we have laws against that kind of stuff and city ordinances against letting buildings get like that, but none the less they were in really rough shape, across from an iconic landmark in the capital of the world.
i think sometimes people put blinders on to stuff like this. i used to seek out old abandoned building to photograph models in, i liked the contrast of a young beautiful nearly naked (sometimes very naked) fresh faced beauty queen against the backdrop of urban decay, what you learn is that its easy to find the decay, and frankly its easy to find the beauty too.
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
Edited by rxb (04/18/23 05:57 AM)
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Re: Cuba [Re: rxb] 1
#28283213 - 04/18/23 06:01 AM (9 months, 5 days ago) |
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Nah man it’s because communism is evil.
Just because they’re a tiny island that can only really grow sugar as a cash crop existing under an economic blockade doesn’t mean they should be struggling.
Just look up how well the average person was doing under the pro freedom, pro capitalism Batista regime before Fidel’s revolution. Sure, a lot of them were illiterate slaves, but they could have worked their way up to plantation-owning aristocrat if they put their minds to it.
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christopera
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336
menehune


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Re: Cuba [Re: rxb]
#28283723 - 04/18/23 12:48 PM (9 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
rxb said: i wouldnt put alot of credit into videos showing poor conditions in cuba, the people that make them ALSO have agendas.
poverty exists everywhere, you could take video of the USA that looks worse in any state.
that isnt to say that cuba is doing great, just that the camera only films what its pointed at take a camera to mississippi or texas and you can see abject poverty and starvation too, it doesnt mean anything about the situation as a whole.
across from nathans famous original coney island spot, 10 years ago were buildings which were in HORRIBLE shape being squatted in by homeless, looking worse than those buildings in cuba in many cases, we have laws against that kind of stuff and city ordinances against letting buildings get like that, but none the less they were in really rough shape, across from an iconic landmark in the capital of the world.
i think sometimes people put blinders on to stuff like this. i used to seek out old abandoned building to photograph models in, i liked the contrast of a young beautiful nearly naked (sometimes very naked) fresh faced beauty queen against the backdrop of urban decay, what you learn is that its easy to find the decay, and frankly its easy to find the beauty too.
Did you watch the video? I'm not sure the person has an agenda. And like I said it appears there are rich areas and tourist areas that are good, but from what I hear the majority of the country is in poverty and is falling apart. Not to say that is the fault of communism, but that it is the fault of a greedy and incapable dictatorship.
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336
menehune


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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Nah man it’s because communism is evil.
Just because they’re a tiny island that can only really grow sugar as a cash crop existing under an economic blockade doesn’t mean they should be struggling.
Just look up how well the average person was doing under the pro freedom, pro capitalism Batista regime before Fidel’s revolution. Sure, a lot of them were illiterate slaves, but they could have worked their way up to plantation-owning aristocrat if they put their minds to it.
From what I understand Cuba actually trades with every nation except the USA.
That said, I don't think Communism is evil, however, it does make it very easy for corrupt people to establish authoritarian dictatorships. I mean when you give the government supreme authority that's not too surprising really. Sadly most people seem incapable of being righteous. If Communism or a form of Communism was actually carried about by righteous people that held to the values of equality things might be different.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336] 1
#28283754 - 04/18/23 01:07 PM (9 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
336 said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Nah man it’s because communism is evil.
Just because they’re a tiny island that can only really grow sugar as a cash crop existing under an economic blockade doesn’t mean they should be struggling.
Just look up how well the average person was doing under the pro freedom, pro capitalism Batista regime before Fidel’s revolution. Sure, a lot of them were illiterate slaves, but they could have worked their way up to plantation-owning aristocrat if they put their minds to it.
From what I understand Cuba actually trades with every nation except the USA.
That said, I don't think Communism is evil, however, it does make it very easy for corrupt people to establish authoritarian dictatorships. I mean when you give the government supreme authority that's not too surprising really. Sadly most people seem incapable of being righteous. If Communism or a form of Communism was actually carried about by righteous people that held to the values of equality things might be different.
Cuba can’t really trade with anyone because economic sanctions means any business that, say, France does will be money that can’t access the US financial system. This is why the BRICS alliance are working on building alternative financial systems.
Iran is another example. US has sanctions, Europe doesnt, but Europe isn’t going to ostracize themselves from Wall St by trading with Iran so they don’t.
It’s kinda like how the legal marijuana industry still can’t really flourish because the federal illegality means they’re virtually off limits to banks.
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rxb
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336]
#28283795 - 04/18/23 01:32 PM (9 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
336 said:
Quote:
rxb said: i wouldnt put alot of credit into videos showing poor conditions in cuba, the people that make them ALSO have agendas.
poverty exists everywhere, you could take video of the USA that looks worse in any state.
that isnt to say that cuba is doing great, just that the camera only films what its pointed at take a camera to mississippi or texas and you can see abject poverty and starvation too, it doesnt mean anything about the situation as a whole.
across from nathans famous original coney island spot, 10 years ago were buildings which were in HORRIBLE shape being squatted in by homeless, looking worse than those buildings in cuba in many cases, we have laws against that kind of stuff and city ordinances against letting buildings get like that, but none the less they were in really rough shape, across from an iconic landmark in the capital of the world.
i think sometimes people put blinders on to stuff like this. i used to seek out old abandoned building to photograph models in, i liked the contrast of a young beautiful nearly naked (sometimes very naked) fresh faced beauty queen against the backdrop of urban decay, what you learn is that its easy to find the decay, and frankly its easy to find the beauty too.
Did you watch the video? I'm not sure the person has an agenda. And like I said it appears there are rich areas and tourist areas that are good, but from what I hear the majority of the country is in poverty and is falling apart. Not to say that is the fault of communism, but that it is the fault of a greedy and incapable dictatorship.
not only did i watch that one, but i have watched others, and i have talked to people who are from cuba and people who used to be from cuba, the gist is the delapidated buildings are off limits, but people use them anyhow, some of cuba is nice, some is dilapidated and alot of it is farm land. some people like living there some people dont. you cant make assumptions based off of one view from one camera. theres good and theres bad.
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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336
menehune


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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Cuba can’t really trade with anyone because economic sanctions means any business that, say, France does will be money that can’t access the US financial system. This is why the BRICS alliance are working on building alternative financial systems.
Iran is another example. US has sanctions, Europe doesnt, but Europe isn’t going to ostracize themselves from Wall St by trading with Iran so they don’t.
It’s kinda like how the legal marijuana industry still can’t really flourish because the federal illegality means they’re virtually off limits to banks.
I hear you, but if I'm not mistaken "Cuba’s main trading partners include Venezuela, China, Spain, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, and the Netherlands."
So it's not like they are as blockaded as some make them out to be. I personally blame the regime. As do many in Cuba from what I hear. I'd love Cuba to be a Communist Utopia, but sadly the military dictatorship seems to have allowed greed and corruption to bind them. Having a relative (kind of, I mean he is far removed) as the top general it would make me extremely proud for Cuba to be successful, and no doubt we cannot deny that US intervention is stifling the potential of Cuba, but even if that was not the case I fear the dictatorship would still ruin the true ideal of equality that Communism is supposed to exemplify.
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rxb
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336]
#28283801 - 04/18/23 01:39 PM (9 months, 5 days ago) |
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greed always seems to be the problem, regardless of the ism. comunism, socialism, capitalism....its always greed that fucks it up
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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336
menehune


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Re: Cuba [Re: rxb]
#28283802 - 04/18/23 01:39 PM (9 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
rxb said: not only did i watch that one, but i have watched others, and i have talked to people who are from cuba and people who used to be from cuba, the gist is the delapidated buildings are off limits, but people use them anyhow, some of cuba is nice, some is dilapidated and alot of it is farm land. some people like living there some people dont. you cant make assumptions based off of one view from one camera. theres good and theres bad.
True enough, still from what I saw in the video of Havana it's clear that Cuba is far from the Communist Utopia it could be. That said if I lived there I'd likely be living in a rural area similar to where I live now in Hawaii, albeit with less tech and internet access, etc.
Something interesting I did notice, despite how run down and trash covered Havana appears, everyone had clean clothes that looked brand new. That was kind of surprising to see. People here in Hawaii look dirtier than they do. lol
I guess when your city is falling apart and the dirty as fuck the only thing you can control is your own appearance so they take extra care to make themselves look good.
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336
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Re: Cuba [Re: rxb]
#28283805 - 04/18/23 01:40 PM (9 months, 5 days ago) |
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rxb said: greed always seems to be the problem, regardless of the ism. comunism, socialism, capitalism....its always greed that fucks it up
Yup. It's sad. It's almost like their is some evil spirit than possesses all these people. I just can't understand why no one in power seems to be capable of being righteous.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336] 1
#28283995 - 04/18/23 04:10 PM (9 months, 5 days ago) |
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We aren’t possessed by demons we live under a global economic order that tells us greed is a virtue and collectivism is evil.
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rxb
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we probably need a new form of government.... like anarchy
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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336
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Re: Cuba [Re: rxb]
#28284605 - 04/18/23 10:03 PM (9 months, 4 days ago) |
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The Ecstatic said: We aren’t possessed by demons we live under a global economic order that tells us greed is a virtue and collectivism is evil.
Yes, but why do we live under this global economic order? What spirit is possessing people to be obsessed with greed.
My dad and I were discussing this earlier, and we agreed that perhaps it has something to do with a type of mentality that can be observed in some wild animals; especially wild animals that are alone and starving. It's almost like some predatory nature deep down in the DNA of the elite is unable to turn off despite being fed and safe. Like a feral animal with rabies. It's a mental disorder that is passed down I think. And that mental disorder is often coupled with generations of incest and inbreeding and rape and molestation and all kinds of fucked up shit among the rich and powerful families. This then trickles down to the nations that they manipulate through their various means of control. Or at least that's one theory I have to explain what the fuck is going on.
Quote:
rxb said: we probably need a new form of government.... like anarchy 
Anarchy only works if everyone is armed, if everyone knows their neighbor, and if there is a sense of culture and community that is more like a family, otherwise it descends into hell where the predators rule through fear.
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rxb
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336]
#28284814 - 04/19/23 05:56 AM (9 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
336 said:Quote:
Anarchy only works if everyone is armed, if everyone knows their neighbor, and if there is a sense of culture and community that is more like a family, otherwise it descends into hell where the predators rule through fear.
many people have misconceptions about what anarchy means. you are one of them.
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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Kryptos
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Re: Cuba [Re: rxb]
#28284915 - 04/19/23 08:09 AM (9 months, 4 days ago) |
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And yet, many people that do understand anarchy, shivas included, are unable to solve the conundrum of the man with a gun who doesn't give a fuck what you think.
Libertarians can't solve this conundrum either, if it makes ya feel any better.
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ballsalsa
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Is there some other system that has solved that issue?
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Kryptos
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To a large degree, the more authoritarian the system, the simpler the solution to that problem.
Of course, using "always a bigger fish" to solve your problems means hierarchies must be built to act as the bigger fish, and then we spend a bunch of time complaining that the biggest fish of them all is bombing half of the world to keep us in a state of relatively luxurious indifference.
This is also why I say morality is a luxury. People that haven't eaten in three days are a lot more willing to make some moral compromises.
Or, here's another potential illustration: you know how most people think they could take a decently sized wild animal in a fight? Have you ever seen a wild animal fight? I don't think I'd want to go toe to toe with a ten pound housecat that is willing to do anything to harm me. There are things that are immediately obvious to wild animals that even I wouldn't be able to comprehend as a possible tactic because it would seem too vicious.
Edited by Kryptos (04/19/23 08:24 AM)
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The Ecstatic
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That’s why freedom is overrated.
As a society we should be building institutions that guarantee food, housing, and medical care for every person, not one that protects one’s ability to purchase 70 private jets.
If you have to oppress some people (in Cuba’s case, the land-owning aristocracy and the mafia) to do that, then so be it.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336]
#28284951 - 04/19/23 08:33 AM (9 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
336 said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: We aren’t possessed by demons we live under a global economic order that tells us greed is a virtue and collectivism is evil.
Yes, but why do we live under this global economic order? What spirit is possessing people to be obsessed with greed.
My dad and I were discussing this earlier, and we agreed that perhaps it has something to do with a type of mentality that can be observed in some wild animals; especially wild animals that are alone and starving. It's almost like some predatory nature deep down in the DNA of the elite is unable to turn off despite being fed and safe. Like a feral animal with rabies. It's a mental disorder that is passed down I think. And that mental disorder is often coupled with generations of incest and inbreeding and rape and molestation and all kinds of fucked up shit among the rich and powerful families. This then trickles down to the nations that they manipulate through their various means of control. Or at least that's one theory I have to explain what the fuck is going on.
It only seems like a deep-seated fact of the universe because it’s what we were born into.
We are inside Plato’s Cave. Just because all we can see is the shadows dancing on the wall doesn’t mean that’s all there is.
If you want to approach the issue from an evolutionary perspective, then you’d find that humans only exist today because of collectivism.
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ballsalsa
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I once charged a pair of raccoons that were blocking my door with a tire iron but I was young and dumb and they could have done some damage if they had stood and fought, no doubt.
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Kryptos
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The perfect society solves 99% of the problem. For most people, comfort, equality, and general well-being is enough. This is the people for who anarchist theory is made for.
For some people, this is not enough.
And most of those people are in charge right now. Because they are willing to do things that normal people are not willing to do, the same way a wild animal is willing to do things us civilized folk would not even conceive of.
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Kryptos
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Fighting between animals is 99% posture, 1% absolute cruelty.
The only times animals will stand and fight is when they are either cornered, fighting for a mate, or outnumber their opponents at least 1.5:1.
Interestingly, the history of human warfare looks to have developed very similarly, to the point where warfare did not exist prior to the invention of the arrow. You had ritual combat that looked more like a dance-off before that, because everyone knew that melee combat is unpredictable and violent.
The invention of the bow allowed one to kill without risking death, and warfare was invented.
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The Ecstatic
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Yet they sow the seeds of their own destruction.
The genius of liberal democracy is securing the prolonged existence of the power structure by ceding some benefits to the proles. But that only works when there’s entire continents worth of resources and labor to exploit, or in America’s case a bunch of free real estate to give away. We’re fast approaching a point where this give and take can’t function as intended, and the power structure begins to break down. The ruling class aren’t going to accept a reduction in material conditions, the last time they did it was because of a militant labor movement and a rising communist threat. When they’re threatened now they’ll just lash out with force. We’ll probably have some technofeudal bullshit replace all this, if humanity even survives the next couple centuries, but what we have now can’t last.
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Kryptos
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Some form of feudalism appears to be the natural state of humanity. Or, to put it differently, rule by the man with the biggest gun.
The genius of liberal democracy is a bureaucratic structure that dilutes power to the point where no one man can control the biggest gun.
The kind of people who need power like we need oxygen will always fight for control.
You can apply this outside of humanity as well. We have enslaved entire species, turning them into livestock, because we have the biggest gun.
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ballsalsa
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Quote:
Kryptos said: Fighting between animals is 99% posture, 1% absolute cruelty.
This is called agonistic display and humans hella do it. Wide eyes, bared teeth, raised voice, raised fists, these are all examples of agonistic display. The logic is pretty simple in that if you can convince you opponent of your formidability you can win without taking damage from actual combat.
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Kryptos
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That's a limited view of agonistic display.
Fighting can also be an example of agonistic display. Hell, look at Ukraine. It's one giant agonistic display.
If it wasn't, it would be a nuclear wasteland.
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Lynnch
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Quote:
Kryptos said: ... Interestingly, the history of human warfare looks to have developed very similarly, to the point where warfare did not exist prior to the invention of the arrow. You had ritual combat that looked more like a dance-off before that, because everyone knew that melee combat is unpredictable and violent.
Do you have a source on that? Sounds like an interesting watch/read
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Kryptos
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Re: Cuba [Re: Lynnch] 1
#28285337 - 04/19/23 01:00 PM (9 months, 4 days ago) |
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Oldest battlefield ever found was Jebel Sahaba, where approximately a third to half the bodies have arrowheads embedded in their skeletons.
Further, cave art depicting anything resembling warfare, with two distinct sides and leaders, all involve archery.
Cave art depicting melee weapons alone universally involve groups of people hunting animals, or the occasional one on one battle...which has led to theories that "warfare" between pre-bow groups was very limited, and if absolutely necessary, was solved by dueling champions.
The other major driver of organized warfare appears to have been sedentism, with evidence appearing of massacres dated back to ~5000 BC involving skeletons that show mortal wounds both by arrowheads and larger blades, among remains of pottery and other signs of early settlements.
So, basically, bows and the collection of shit worth stealing in non-nomadic tribes appears to have directly led to organized warfare.
Source for this: prehistoric warfare wiki. OG source for argument: a well sourced YouTube video I watched a while back. I'd have to do some digging to find it (and not be on mobile, I'm not watching YouTube videos at work).
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336
menehune


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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: That’s why freedom is overrated.
As a society we should be building institutions that guarantee food, housing, and medical care for every person, not one that protects one’s ability to purchase 70 private jets.
If you have to oppress some people (in Cuba’s case, the land-owning aristocracy and the mafia) to do that, then so be it.
Have you looked into the history of Latin American nations during the cold war? I've been doing fairly deep research into it, and I can assure you that authoritarianism is not the way to go regardless of what excuse or greater good is professed as the reasoning behind it. We're talking mass murder, disappearances, silencing of public thought and expression, torture, etc etc. One could argue that Ameria engages in all of these things, but it is the gridlock of our system that prevents such things from escalating to real out of control levels as can be seen in places such as Argentina, Chile, El Salvador, Cuba, North Korea, etc etc.
Now if you were to suggest that some hacker group were to expose all the corruption in government, siphon all the money out of the banks, and redistribute it to everyone, than I'd be in full support of that. lmao
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Kryptos
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336] 1
#28285637 - 04/19/23 03:36 PM (9 months, 4 days ago) |
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So in the interests of preventing authoritarianism, you support the idea of an anonymous hacker group unilaterally acting as the sole authority?
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shivas.wisdom
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Quote:
Kryptos said: So in the interests of preventing authoritarianism, you support the idea of an anonymous hacker group unilaterally acting as the sole authority?
Unilateral action doesn't necessarily equate to acting as sole authority; unless that hacker group also controls various institutions such as the police, the military, the courts, the prison system, and the state bureaucracy - otherwise, it's just direct action.
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shivas.wisdom
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Quote:
Kryptos said: And yet, many people that do understand anarchy, shivas included, are unable to solve the conundrum of the man with a gun who doesn't give a fuck what you think. [...] To a large degree, the more authoritarian the system, the simpler the solution to that problem.
Huh? By solve, do you mean 'eliminate completely'? Because otherwise, the solution is well-known and currently-practiced: decentralized self-defence networks.
And I'm not sure if 'simpler' is the appropriate word choice. A centralized system of police, courts, and prisons has lots of moving parts - by centralizing authority, those down the hierarchy can remain uninvolved in the operation - but it's still a highly complicated solution.
It also seems, by your own admission, that authoritarian solutions just turns the man with a gun into the man with the military. If anything, such a solution sets the foundation for systematic genocide and mass murder, rather than removing the original risk.
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shivas.wisdom
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Quote:
Kryptos said: This is also why I say morality is a luxury. People that haven't eaten in three days are a lot more willing to make some moral compromises.
What do you mean by luxury?
You seem to be using this to say that morality is more difficult than immorality. Wouldn't that make immorality the luxury? 'Something adding to pleasure or comfort but not absolutely necessary'.
Or are you using it to say that 'a condition of abundance or great ease and comfort' is a necessary precursor to morality? Once again, considering that moral action is not confined to those who live luxurious lives, this claim is self-evidently false.
To me, this claim of yours really just comes across as you attempting to rationalize your own moral choices as 'necessary' rather than personally own up to them.
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SirTripAlot
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Would you being willing to steal a can of Spam after a meal or after missing 20 meals? Don't know if stealing for subsistence rather than for being fat or bloated, isn't the same thing....its still stealing, however, mitigating factors make these choices seem murky, IMO.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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shivas.wisdom
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Quote:
Kryptos said: Oldest battlefield ever found was Jebel Sahaba, where approximately a third to half the bodies have arrowheads embedded in their skeletons.
Jebel Sahaba: 16,000–11,000 years ago Arrowheads: 72,000–60,000 years ago
How do you explain that gap?
I think you need to re-examine your views on the natural state of humanity. Human organization goes back much further than written history - hundreds of thousands of years; millions if you consider the genus homo in it's entirety.
Decentralized organization is likely to have been the human default until some time in the neolithic era.
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Edited by shivas.wisdom (04/19/23 05:56 PM)
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shivas.wisdom
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Would you being willing to steal a can of Spam after a meal or after missing 20 meals? Don't know if stealing for subsistence rather than for being fat or bloated, isn't the same thing....its still stealing, however, mitigating factors make these choices seem murky, IMO.
Personally, I don't consider stealing from corporations to be immoral, so not the best example - but I don't dispute the point that 'people who haven't eaten in three days are a lot more willing to make some moral compromises'. It's still a generalization rather than immutable truth. There are more than enough examples of people making the hard moral choice to prove this.
Secondary point, most of us living in North America haven't been starving for three days before compromising our morality for comfort. We're making these decisions while living in the heart of luxury - so it seems weird to be saying 'of course starving people would make this choice' in the context of our own lives.
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SirTripAlot
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Interesting, you don't think stealing privately owned property is not immoral? Do you feel that way legally as well?
I do agree that there is so much food in the US, that starvation is incredibly rare.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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ballsalsa
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I think stealing must be a moral act in some contexts. Otherwise Robin Hood would be the villain of the story.
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SirTripAlot
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True dat, those mitigating factors.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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shivas.wisdom
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I don't think stealing from corporations is immoral, because the foundation of these organizations is exploitation for profit. It's not stealing, it's taking back what's been stolen from us. I know that's not legally true, but I don't conflate legality with morality. Non-profits and co-ops are given a little more nuance. Imo the best theft is stealing from work.
Stealing personal property from other people is something else entirely. Not necessarily good or bad, depending on contextual circumstances.
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menehune


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The thing is morality is subjective. It all depends on whether or not you are a slave master or a slave. For the slave master, it's entirely moral to beat, rape, exploit, and enslave; on the other hand, it is immoral from the slave master's perspective for the slave to steal, disobey, rebel, escape, or attempt to escape. And vice versa from the perspective of the slave.
We live in a neo-slave system; so it really all breaks down into these two categories. The sad thing is how many slaves have convinced themselves they are small slave-masters or that they may one day become a slave-master. And so they defend the principles of slavery.
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MagicMush123
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336]
#28285923 - 04/19/23 07:05 PM (9 months, 4 days ago) |
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Haven't followed the thread but judging by your above statement you're totally out of your mind. Morality isnt dependent on your position in life. The people who are "immoral" are generally disturbed individuals and their position in life has nothing to do with it. Money or lack of money doesn't effect your morality. You can find many examples of immortal rich and the poor. But the catch is most people in both realms are moral. Most people try to be good people and if you cant see that you're too far gone
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Kryptos
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shivas.wisdom said:
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Kryptos said: So in the interests of preventing authoritarianism, you support the idea of an anonymous hacker group unilaterally acting as the sole authority?
Unilateral action doesn't necessarily equate to acting as sole authority; unless that hacker group also controls various institutions such as the police, the military, the courts, the prison system, and the state bureaucracy - otherwise, it's just direct action.
At that moment they are. What is the time cutoff between "direct action" and "tyrannical authority"?
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shivas.wisdom said:
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Kryptos said: And yet, many people that do understand anarchy, shivas included, are unable to solve the conundrum of the man with a gun who doesn't give a fuck what you think. [...] To a large degree, the more authoritarian the system, the simpler the solution to that problem.
Huh? By solve, do you mean 'eliminate completely'? Because otherwise, the solution is well-known and currently-practiced: decentralized self-defence networks.
And I'm not sure if 'simpler' is the appropriate word choice. A centralized system of police, courts, and prisons has lots of moving parts - by centralizing authority, those down the hierarchy can remain uninvolved in the operation - but it's still a highly complicated solution.
It also seems, by your own admission, that authoritarian solutions just turns the man with a gun into the man with the military. If anything, such a solution sets the foundation for systematic genocide and mass murder, rather than removing the original risk.
Yes, exactly. The man with an authoritarian military does a mass murder of the decentralized self-defense network. Don't get me wrong, a decentralized self-defense network in Vietnam crippled the US, at the cost of a 1:4 K:D ratio and a generation of birth defects from agent orange. Just like the decentralized self-defense networks of Iraq and Afghanistan fought off the US military. With a K:D ratio of what, 1:200? Probably gonna have a generation of birth defects too, between the burn pits, explosive residue, and all the DU. Actually, now that I think about it, probably multiple generations on both counts.
I'll agree that the US lost both of those wars, but honestly? They don't really feel like losses to me in the US. If I was Afghani, I don't think I'd consider the ruins of my country a "win", either. Point is, it's a Pyrrhic victory to the point where I'd rather be the loser.
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shivas.wisdom said:
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Kryptos said: Oldest battlefield ever found was Jebel Sahaba, where approximately a third to half the bodies have arrowheads embedded in their skeletons.
Jebel Sahaba: 16,000–11,000 years ago Arrowheads: 72,000–60,000 years ago
How do you explain that gap?
I think you need to re-examine your views on the natural state of humanity. Human organization goes back much further than written history - hundreds of thousands of years; millions if you consider the genus homo in it's entirety.
Decentralized organization is likely to have been the human default until some time in the neolithic era.
Organized warfare did not appear before the bow, I believe was my original assertion. I think that gap supports my assertion very well, thank you.
Otherwise, I'm not really sure why I'd be re-examining my views when you seem to confirm them? "No, the sky isn't blue, it is BLUE!"
(woops, I accidentally went out of order)
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shivas.wisdom said:
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Kryptos said: This is also why I say morality is a luxury. People that haven't eaten in three days are a lot more willing to make some moral compromises.
What do you mean by luxury?
You seem to be using this to say that morality is more difficult than immorality. Wouldn't that make immorality the luxury? 'Something adding to pleasure or comfort but not absolutely necessary'.
Or are you using it to say that 'a condition of abundance or great ease and comfort' is a necessary precursor to morality? Once again, considering that moral action is not confined to those who live luxurious lives, this claim is self-evidently false.
To me, this claim of yours really just comes across as you attempting to rationalize your own moral choices as 'necessary' rather than personally own up to them.
Yes, By calling it a luxury I mean that morality is more difficult than immorality. You seem to interpret this in a very black and white manner which I guess I didn't understand the first time. Morality is much more accessible to the comfortable. That does not preclude morality without comfort, nor does it preclude morality with comfort. It is much like saying that a power drill is a "luxury" to a guy who can only afford a screwdriver. Yes, the guy with the screwdriver can put screws in the wall just as well as the guy with the power drill, but the power drill makes it a whole lot easier.
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You keep saying this is rationalization. Yes, it is. Here's an analogy. I demand electricity. This does not mean I demand electricity powered by coal. I would like electricity provided by clean, safe, fusion energy. The shit that has been 20 years from now in the future since, oh, about 1950?
To continue the analogy, you seem to think I'm yelling "drill baby drill" at the top of my lungs. Nah man, my priority is electricity. Make fusion actually work, and I'll be right there behind ya.
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Quote:
MagicMush123 said: Haven't followed the thread but judging by your above statement you're totally out of your mind. Morality isnt dependent on your position in life. The people who are "immoral" are generally disturbed individuals and their position in life has nothing to do with it. Money or lack of money doesn't effect your morality. You can find many examples of immortal rich and the poor. But the catch is most people in both realms are moral. Most people try to be good people and if you cant see that you're too far gone
That is of course your opinion, and you are entitled to it. History would say otherwise.
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Kryptos
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336]
#28285971 - 04/19/23 07:36 PM (9 months, 4 days ago) |
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Morality is absolutely relative to circumstance.
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MagicMush123
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Ya you guys are right that sometimes in dire circumstances people can act immorally. That doesnt suddenly make whatever they had to do moral though. Morality isnt a pendulum
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Dire circumstances aren't the only circumstances that allow for violence or greed, etc. It's not that morality is a pendulum, its moreso a cultural construct that varies from culture to culture. Much of what is considered moral by many is considered highly immoral by others.
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Kryptos
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336]
#28286054 - 04/19/23 08:45 PM (9 months, 4 days ago) |
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The great conservative fear of "one day, may we will be cancelled for things that are normal today" shows that morality is, indeed, relative.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336]
#28286056 - 04/19/23 08:45 PM (9 months, 4 days ago) |
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It can change with time, also.
Just because an example of failed morality (by one society) that is viewed as moral (by another society), doesn't make it so. I think reaching a general consensus between all, is possible although that may be a pipedream.
Take murdering a child. Is it moral to slit the throat of a 7 year old, for the sole purpose of the act itself? Are there socities that view that as moral? If they did, would it make it moral?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Kryptos
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Actually, as I read this book on the history of prehistoric violence to respond to Shivas, one example stands out: Lions, in lean times, will on occasion kill cubs of other lions and usually eat them. Normally, this is done by a lioness supported by a lion, targeting a lioness who lacks such support. Among primates, on the other hand, this activity is exclusively seen carried out by males who are seeking mating rites--they will murder any children the female monkey has by other males that are not around to protect them. They do not participate in cannibalism, though.
So in fact there is a time in which the wanton slaughter of a child is moral. The theorized purpose of this act, however, is to free up the female monkey for some, uh, spanking of the monkey.
Edit: according to the wikipedia, infanticide appears to be exceedingly rare in non-human primates. Apparently, we actually stand out for child murder. There's an interesting tidbit.
Edit2: this goes into a lot of detail. Humans have evolved quite a few distinctions from other monkeys, seemingly to stop us from killing all our babies. We're really into that shit.
Edited by Kryptos (04/19/23 09:06 PM)
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SirTripAlot
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I don't know, slaughtering a young monkey compared to a sick fuck killing a child for the hell of it ....doesn't seem on par. Humans have this distinction...
Additionally, just because whatever moral is not absolute in every possible circumstance ad infinitum, doesn't completely take away the validity of the moral in the vast majority of circumstances.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Kryptos
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See edit2 above...we actually stand out among other species for being into child murder. Although I will concede there is probably a lot of visibility bias involved, maybe monkeys have evolved in ways we haven't considered to prevent baby killing.
So, actually, school shootings are basically biologically hardwired.
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Additionally, just because whatever moral is not absolute in every possible circumstance ad infinitum, doesn't completely take away the validity of the moral in the vast majority of circumstances.
I mean...it kind of does? The whole point of a moral is that it is concerned with what is right and what is wrong. If it's only sometimes right and sometimes wrong...That's less morals and more suggestions.
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SirTripAlot
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I would say that child murder via serial killer is wrong in virtually all circumstances compared to when it is right. Do you agree with that?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (04/19/23 09:22 PM)
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Kryptos
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Sure, but the qualifier "virtually" kind of defeats the argument, no?
It turns morality into a judgement call. I think morality is supposed to be a more concrete delineation between right and wrong.
I have a very hard time coming up with an example of something that is absolutely 100% wrong at all times, without circular definitions.
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shivas.wisdom
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Quote:
Kryptos said: At that moment they are. What is the time cutoff between "direct action" and "tyrannical authority"?
[...]
Yes, exactly. The man with an authoritarian military does a mass murder of the decentralized self-defense network. Don't get me wrong, a decentralized self-defense network in Vietnam crippled the US, at the cost of a 1:4 K:D ratio and a generation of birth defects from agent orange. Just like the decentralized self-defense networks of Iraq and Afghanistan fought off the US military. With a K:D ratio of what, 1:200? Probably gonna have a generation of birth defects too, between the burn pits, explosive residue, and all the DU. Actually, now that I think about it, probably multiple generations on both counts.
I'll agree that the US lost both of those wars, but honestly? They don't really feel like losses to me in the US. If I was Afghani, I don't think I'd consider the ruins of my country a "win", either. Point is, it's a Pyrrhic victory to the point where I'd rather be the loser.
[...]
Organized warfare did not appear before the bow, I believe was my original assertion. I think that gap supports my assertion very well, thank you.
Otherwise, I'm not really sure why I'd be re-examining my views when you seem to confirm them? "No, the sky isn't blue, it is BLUE!"
(woops, I accidentally went out of order)
[...]
Yes, By calling it a luxury I mean that morality is more difficult than immorality. You seem to interpret this in a very black and white manner which I guess I didn't understand the first time. Morality is much more accessible to the comfortable. That does not preclude morality without comfort, nor does it preclude morality with comfort. It is much like saying that a power drill is a "luxury" to a guy who can only afford a screwdriver. Yes, the guy with the screwdriver can put screws in the wall just as well as the guy with the power drill, but the power drill makes it a whole lot easier.
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You keep saying this is rationalization. Yes, it is. Here's an analogy. I demand electricity. This does not mean I demand electricity powered by coal. I would like electricity provided by clean, safe, fusion energy. The shit that has been 20 years from now in the future since, oh, about 1950?
To continue the analogy, you seem to think I'm yelling "drill baby drill" at the top of my lungs. Nah man, my priority is electricity. Make fusion actually work, and I'll be right there behind ya.
1) Perhaps acting as the sole authority in the limited aspect of how they exercise their own agency - but that's not the same thing as 'authoritarianism' which describes a sole authority in charge of all aspects of daily life at the expense of personal agency.
What's the difference between direct action and tyrannical authority? The first is the exercise of one's own agency; the later is the use of oppression to force the agency of others into subservience.
-----2) Then it seems disengenous to suggest that state authority provides a meaningful solution to the conundrum in a way that anarchy is unable to, when that solution is just 'be the man with the biggest gun'. It's not a solution, it's just a way to hopefully insulate oneself from the worst results. If we're being honest, both anarchy and authority have imperfect solutions with different strengths and weaknesses in their implementation. -----3) You made two slightly different assertions. Warfare did not exist prior to the invention of the arrow, and the invention of the bow allowed one to kill without risking death, and warfare was invented. The first assertion, while technically correct, incorrectly suggests that the invention of warfare quickly followed the invention of the arrow. The second assertion makes the same claim directly. Since the arrow was likely invented tens of thousands of years before the development of warfare, it seems unlikely that the ability to kill without risking death was a major instigator in the development of war. Imo, it probably has much more to do with the beginnings of the state; and the ability to both maintain a professional army and order others to fight for the benefit of a ruler. -----4) 'Morality is a luxury' is a black and white statement - how else was I supposed to interpret it? 'Morality is much more accessible to the comfortable.' contains nuance, but it's still an unproven assertion. In fact... Higher social class predicts increased unethical behavior
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SirTripAlot
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Not really, because it creates a consensus within a person and a society of what actions are right or not. The mental gymstics one would need to do....to create a moral situation out of a horrendous act like a thrill kill would be ridiculous. I do think just because there is a one off, or an extremely exceptional circumstance does not take away the validity of said moral.
One things for certain, humans aren't good at this.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Kryptos
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1) I dunno, kinda sounds like the hacking group in this scenario is oppressing the continued enrichment of the wealthy. It is an expression of agency. Shooting up a school is also an exercise of agency.
2) I never claimed that state authority provides a meaningful solution to the concundrum. You are correct, there is no solution. There is the least bad option, and the least bad option is being the man with the biggest gun.
3) Poorly sourced argument then. I do agree that organized warfare was likely coincidental with sedentism. But it was an interesting tidbit I saw in a youtube video. The more I read my book on prehistoric warfare, the more convinced I am that ranged weapons were integral to the concept, however.
4) Perhaps I do not consider luxuries to be black and white. I consider there to be a relative spectrum of luxury.
Also, perhaps the confusion with the word luxury goes deeper, as I do not correlate it at all with higher social status. Higher social class may well predict unethical behavior for a variety of reasons, one of which being that unethical behavior is becoming a ticket to the higher social class.
I am, as I said earlier, using the world "luxury" to mean "easier". Perhaps I should call it an indulgence? Either way, I am much more concerned with my situation than I am with the situations of everyone else. Taking time and resources to act in a more moral manner requires having time and resources to spare.
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Kryptos
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Not really, because it creates a consensus within a person and a society of what actions are right or not. The mental gymstics one would need to do....to create a moral situation out of a horrendous act like a thrill kill would be ridiculous. I do think just because there is a one off, or an extremely exceptional circumstance does not take away the validity of said moral.
One things for certain, humans aren't good at this.
I fully agree with the idea of morality by societal consensus. That's why morality is relative--it comes from the zeitgeist.
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MagicMush123
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336]
#28286194 - 04/19/23 10:26 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Ya sure every culture has its niche but things like murder, betrayal, theft etc are universally considered immoral worldwide
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Kryptos
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Murder is defined as an immoral killing, so it is useless to consider. There are, however, plenty of killings that are perfectly moral and even good in our society. Like killing in self defense. Like that old guy that blew away that 20 year old girl because she turned down his driveway and scared him almost to death.
Betrayal can be good, that's why James Bond is so cool. He can sneak in, integrate, and then betray the bad guys for us.
Theft can be good too, unless you're willing to argue that a father stealing a loaf of bread or a can of beans to save the life of his starving child is immoral.
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shivas.wisdom
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1) Yeah that's not contradictory, it's the principle of self-defence. It's wrong, unless it's a proportional response to harm directed at you.
Sure, I can hypothesize situations where this fictional hacker group might overstep the bounds of direct action into authoritarianism. I'm certain you understand how those other two examples are outside of that boundary as well.
----- 2) Least bad according to you. For me, the least bad option is living according to my convictions damn the consequences!
----- 3) It's an interesting topic for me as well. I'm sure ranged weapons were an important tool, I think the only error is not acknowledging that ranged weapons existed for a long time before organized warfare came along. By this I mean that it wasn't solely the ability to (relatively) safely commit violence that enabled warfare - there were foundational, societal causes. Yes, centralized government.
----- 4) So basically, 'it's easiest to take the easy option, and morality isn't always the easiest option' - I mean, I wouldn't dispute it, but I don't see it as some binding truth. Sometimes it is easier to go the moral route, and sometimes people will take the harder route anyways. I think you're better off framing this as a personal conviction rather than an inherent quality, because that seems to be all it is.
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shivas.wisdom
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Quote:
Kryptos said: I have a very hard time coming up with an example of something that is absolutely 100% wrong at all times, without circular definitions.
That which is both unnecessary and harmful. Of course, that still leave some wiggle room when it comes to interpretation.
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Kryptos
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1) I do not presume myself able to distinguish just violence and unjust violence. There is usually a line, and it is usually crossed in both directions. Further, I don't think this particular would be an example of the most effective forms of direct action.
2) Okay then. So there is no argument. Right.
3) I think that would also be questionable. We've come to the impasse before: how many people in a power structure is the cutoff that delineates between a centralized and a not centralized government?
4) I never claimed that this was anything but my own conviction. I just happen to think that a lot of people think like me, i.e., will take the easy route. As evidence, I gesture broadly to everything outside of where the zapatistas and maybe a few co-ops exist. This is a big problem for leftists that they need to overcome at some point. I hope they do.
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Re: last post, because for some reason the thing won't let me quote from the new post warning
Interpretation being the difference between usable information and meaningless platitude.
Edited by Kryptos (04/19/23 10:59 PM)
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menehune


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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: It can change with time, also.
Just because an example of failed morality (by one society) that is viewed as moral (by another society), doesn't make it so. I think reaching a general consensus between all, is possible although that may be a pipedream.
Take murdering a child. Is it moral to slit the throat of a 7 year old, for the sole purpose of the act itself? Are there socities that view that as moral? If they did, would it make it moral?
The point is that nothing is moral or immoral unless you believe it to be. Thus morality is relative and different for everyone and everything. Rarely do creatures do something for no reason. There is always some justification that is created. Is it moral for children to die of cancer? Or for a planet to be destroyed by a meteor? Or for a forest to burn? Part of what creates a culture or a society is that the majority of people agree upon what they believe to be moral or immoral, but in reality, those are just personal beliefs that are no more or less real than any other belief.
The extreme scenario you give about killing a child is only seen as immoral under certain circumstances. I.e. today many don't see abortion as immoral. Or if a child was a zombie, or was insane and was trying to kill someone, etc. This same principle could be applied in every avenue. If I'm not mistaken.
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shivas.wisdom
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I'm not commenting on the effectiveness of this fictional hacker group, just the conflating of it with the sole authority of authoritarianism. Being unable to perfectly distinguish just violence from unjust violence doesn't mean we're unable to make informed yet fallible decisions; in my experience, common situations that call for self-defence aren't exactly trolley problems. I don't vouch for anyone else, but I trust myself to use my own agency responsibly. As for prehistoric societies, the number of people doesn't make the difference - it's two alternative methods of organization. Centralized organization consolidates power in a single individual/group, while decentralized organization distributes power across multiple individuals/groups. We might not have an absolute line between prehistoric stateless societies and proto-state societies, but it's still true that the development of organized warfare is closely associated with the formation of the state (although it could be attributed to a low chance of discovering the required paleolithic evidence to demonstrate otherwise).
Finally, I don't think that moral code is a platitude, regardless of interpretation. Harmfulness and necessity are meaningful qualities, they just aren't objective qualities - but neither is morality so that shouldn't be surprising. The point of the post was to illustrate that the 'something' doesn't have to be a specific act - the intent behind the act or the effects of the act can be what makes an act moral or not. That's how I get around being a moral relativist with a moral code.
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336]
#28286236 - 04/19/23 11:57 PM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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Mmm, yeah, good point. Is it moral to shoot a child who is a mass shooter? Lot of people say that armed guards would help that situation...which means, implicitly, that sometimes it's time to blow away a kid. Like that teacher that got shot a while back, there's no way that six year old got the drop on her. If she was strapped, she could have neutralized him pretty easily, especially since she knew something was off.
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Kryptos
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: As for prehistoric societies, the number of people doesn't make the difference - it's two alternative methods of organization. Centralized organization consolidates power in a single individual/group, while decentralized organization distributes power across multiple individuals/groups. We might not have an absolute line between prehistoric stateless societies and proto-state societies, but it's still true that the development of organized warfare is closely associated with the formation of the state (although it could be attributed to a low chance of discovering the required paleolithic evidence to demonstrate otherwise).
I am not sure about this. When I think of centralization of power, I usually think of a society large enough that one could feasibly not know the ruler. I'm thinking more city-state type of thing. But that happens about 4000BC, while we have evidence of warfare as far back as 13000.
I think it is very likely that the first organized war broke out when tribes settled, and one tribe had a bad harvest that year, and they decided to beat up the tribe next door instead of starving. This does not require centralized power. This requires a bunch if hungry people with bows who know, or think they know, that other people are eating good.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336]
#28286274 - 04/20/23 01:26 AM (9 months, 3 days ago) |
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336 said:
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SirTripAlot said: It can change with time, also.
Just because an example of failed morality (by one society) that is viewed as moral (by another society), doesn't make it so. I think reaching a general consensus between all, is possible although that may be a pipedream.
Take murdering a child. Is it moral to slit the throat of a 7 year old, for the sole purpose of the act itself? Are there socities that view that as moral? If they did, would it make it moral?
The point is that nothing is moral or immoral unless you believe it to be. Thus morality is relative and different for everyone and everything. Rarely do creatures do something for no reason. There is always some justification that is created. Is it moral for children to die of cancer? Or for a planet to be destroyed by a meteor? Or for a forest to burn? Part of what creates a culture or a society is that the majority of people agree upon what they believe to be moral or immoral, but in reality, those are just personal beliefs that are no more or less real than any other belief.
The extreme scenario you give about killing a child is only seen as immoral under certain circumstances. I.e. today many don't see abortion as immoral. Or if a child was a zombie, or was insane and was trying to kill someone, etc. This same principle could be applied in every avenue. If I'm not mistaken.
You changed my example. It was the murdering of a 7 year old child by slitting of the throat, merely for the act itself....not an abortion or a zombie. That is some serious mental gymnastics to get there.
Edited by SirTripAlot (04/20/23 01:30 AM)
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Kryptos
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This feels like using murder as an example of immorality, in the sense that you're using what is essentially a circular definition.
Sort of, not quite, same ballpark?
When you say something has no reason and is done for the act itself, that seems weird to me. I think that everything is done for a reason, no matter how abhorrent or seemingly invalid the reason is from another perspective.
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ballsalsa
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I was just reading about a kid who stabbed a younger girl to death because he wanted to see how it felt. That seems like the kinda thing he's talking about.
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SirTripAlot
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My point, is that in the example, it was not an abortion, which can be moral in many instances or a zombie. Say homeboy was pissed that little boy shit his pants. Does that make it worse or less harmful compared to a thrill kill (for the act itself)?
This type of thing doesn't happen that much (compared to other acts)....because it is viewed as absolutely not moral in any sense. I think its a little crazy to rubber stamp every situation as morally relative, that there is no definitive conclusion on the morality of any act, no matter the depravity.
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Edited by SirTripAlot (04/20/23 01:17 PM)
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Kryptos
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Well, when I say morality is relative, I mean the circumstances of the act change the validity of the act.
If someone kills a child for shitting their pants, they may think it is moral, but society will likely disagree. (Although, again, historical morality as seen in Deuteronomy and Leviticus does on occasion assign the death penalty to children who misbehave, so that may well have been seen as moral at one point)
If someone kills a child that is pointing a gun at them, that becomes a much more morally gray situation. In many cases, modern society would, in fact, support killing said child and possibly even consider it a moral good. When the cops kill a teen mass shooter, I don't see an outcry of indignation that a child was killed.
The act itself is the same: the killing of a child. The situation dictates the level of acceptance that society assigns to the act.
The way I see it, morality is a black and white good/bad delineation for actions. An immoral action is always wrong regardless of circumstances, while a moral action is always right regardless of circumstances.
That's why people that advocate for fixed morality often involve the biblical ten commandments, which all forbid specific actions regardless of circumstances.
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shivas.wisdom
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Quote:
Kryptos said: I am not sure about this. When I think of centralization of power, I usually think of a society large enough that one could feasibly not know the ruler. I'm thinking more city-state type of thing. But that happens about 4000BC, while we have evidence of warfare as far back as 13000.
I think it is very likely that the first organized war broke out when tribes settled, and one tribe had a bad harvest that year, and they decided to beat up the tribe next door instead of starving. This does not require centralized power. This requires a bunch if hungry people with bows who know, or think they know, that other people are eating good.
A society large enough that one wouldn't know the ruler... Isn't that just an arbitrary definition of centralized power? It's not like fully formed city-states and dynastic kings sprang up out of nowhere in 4000BC. Sedentism, agriculture, social stratification, and centralized political structures - these are all associated with the neolithic revolution, a period of time that closely correlates with our archeological record of organized warfare.
The conditions you describe, "a bunch of hungry people with bows who know that other people are eating good", would have existed for tens of thousands of years before the earliest evidence of organized warfare. I'll ask again, how do you explain that gap?
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Kryptos
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Sedentism.
More specifically, the stockpiling of food. Nomads don't stockpile food. When times are lean, times are lean for everyone in the region. There is no point raiding next door.
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shivas.wisdom
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How are you isolating sedentism/food storage from all those other causes? It's not like cultures became sedentary in a bubble - although outliers exist, the shift to sedentism is very closely associated with the adoption of agriculture and formation of cities - which is all closely associated with political centralization and social stratification.
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Kryptos
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Unless your argument is that we are necessarily bound to centralized government unless we decide to become nomadic, you're skipping over thousands of years of urbanization. The first evidence of five figure populations is in 4-5000BC.
This is why I keep asking you for a specific delineation between centralized and decentralized government. Are you saying that a village of maybe a few hundred organizing a warbard to attack another village of maybe a few hundred is an example of centralized government?
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336
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Quote:
Kryptos said: When you say something has no reason and is done for the act itself, that seems weird to me. I think that everything is done for a reason, no matter how abhorrent or seemingly invalid the reason is from another perspective.
Exactly.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336]
#28287493 - 04/20/23 11:04 PM (9 months, 2 days ago) |
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Abortion and zombies lol
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336
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It may be wrong to abort a human, but is it wrong to abort a zombie? lol
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shivas.wisdom
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Kryptos said: Unless your argument is that we are necessarily bound to centralized government unless we decide to become nomadic, you're skipping over thousands of years of urbanization. The first evidence of five figure populations is in 4-5000BC.
This is why I keep asking you for a specific delineation between centralized and decentralized government. Are you saying that a village of maybe a few hundred organizing a warbard to attack another village of maybe a few hundred is an example of centralized government?
Necessarily bound? No... Human culture isn't bound by strict rules for how it has to happen; but we still have knowledge of the particular path human development has taken, and there is a very strong association between sedentism, agriculture, social stratification, and centralized political structures - it's why these traits are grouped together as the neolithic revolution. "Five figure populations" is an arbitrary measure you've made up - fully formed city-states didn't just appear, which is why I specifically referred to 'formation of cities'. A direct causal relationship is difficult to establish, but we know none of these traits developed in a vacuum. Human organization is defined by the process, not the number of participants - I'm not sure why this is confusing you. A village chieftain orders the attack? Centralized organization. A village gathering decides via consensus? Decentralized organization.
So I've answered your question again, now will you explain how you're isolating sedentism/food storage from all those other causes? Remember that your first argument about the invention of the bow leading to organized war fell flat too.
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Edited by shivas.wisdom (04/21/23 12:39 PM)
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Kryptos
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Well, in that case, how are you separating warfare from decentralized governance?
You say that sedentism, centralized governance, and formation of cities all happened at the same time. We know that sedentism began around 10,000BC, cities began to form by 4-5,000BC, and we just assume the centralized government happened because a decentralized government would not go to war?
It seems that you are falling into the same trap my bow argument fell into. We have evidence of sedentism as far back as 11,700 BC, but the first evidence of centralized beaurocratic power structures appear around 6000BC in Sumer.
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ballsalsa
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Chimpanzees wage war and they don't have agriculture, ranged weapons more advanced than thrown rocks or build structures around which to base a sedentary community. As far as I know, they don't have religion either although I'm not certain to what extent group decisions are made by consensus or dictated by a single powerful chimp.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombe_Chimpanzee_War
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Quote:
Kryptos said: Well, when I say morality is relative, I mean the circumstances of the act change the validity of the act.
Morality must be viewed in light of all of the circumstances, sure. You aren't suggesting that morality differs from culture to culture or time to time?
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Re: Cuba [Re: Enlil]
#28288545 - 04/21/23 03:56 PM (9 months, 2 days ago) |
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I am absolutely suggesting that morality varies both from culture to culture and from time to time.
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Enlil
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That's just ridiculous.
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Re: Cuba [Re: Enlil]
#28288561 - 04/21/23 04:01 PM (9 months, 2 days ago) |
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Can you come up with a single action that is morally wrong in every case at all times, or a single action that is morally right in every case at all times?
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Enlil
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That question is irrelevant to my point. Circumstances surrounding the act do play into the morality thereof. Culture and date do not.
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Re: Cuba [Re: Enlil]
#28288590 - 04/21/23 04:08 PM (9 months, 2 days ago) |
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Then we are discussing something else, like standards of justifiable action.
Morality is not worried about justification, morality dictates simply whether an act is right or wrong. Thou shalt not ____ type shit.
Unless you can come up with a specific moral principle that will hold true in all cases, then morality is just a fuzzy zeitgeist that society agrees on. This means it depends on the culture and time.
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Enlil
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That's just you defining morality for purposes of being right. That's not at all how morality works. An act, in isolation, is neither moral nor immoral. Only by viewing the totality of circumstances can an act be deemed moral or immoral.
Nonetheless, to answer your question. Having sexual intercourse with a 6 month old child is immoral under any circumstances.
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Kryptos
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Re: Cuba [Re: Enlil]
#28288632 - 04/21/23 04:27 PM (9 months, 2 days ago) |
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Enlil said: That's just you defining morality for purposes of being right. That's not at all how morality works. An act, in isolation, is neither moral nor immoral. Only by viewing the totality of circumstances can an act be deemed moral or immoral.
Then morality is judged on the circumstance, making it flexible. Or are you saying that we judge morality based on the totality of circumstance, and once judged, that morality is deemed eternal, and completely unrelated to the circumstances that took place?
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Enlil said: Nonetheless, to answer your question. Having sexual intercourse with a 6 month old child is immoral under any circumstances.
Posting here is why I will never be a politician. Fuck.
If morality is not relative to time and culture, then this would still be true back when we were monkey looking things. Or however far back you need to go for six months to be mature.
Actually, we never would have made it past the single-celled stage. Probably have entire generations live and die in six days back then, let alone six months.
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Enlil
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Again, morality does not change with culture or time. It is judged based on the totality of the other circumstances, though. Humans do not decide morality. Humans try to determine the morality of things. Morality itself is fixed and constant. Human understanding of morality may change, just as our understanding of gravity changes, but neither morality nor gravity changes.
And a 6 month old child, by definition, is human. Having sexual intercourse with a 6 month old child is immoral regardless of the circumstances
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ballsalsa
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That would imply that morality is a thing that exists outside of the human imagination and that we can apply it to non-human creatures
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shivas.wisdom
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@Kryptos I'm not saying they happened at the same time - the archeological record doesn't offer that kind of precision. What it does reveal is that a gradual process of increasing sedentism, agriculture, societal stratification, and centralized political structure began roughly 12,000 years ago, which culminated in the bronze-age city-states at the beginning of written history; a marked departure from prehistoric human culture that continues today.
Those city-states didn't arise from nothing in the year 10,000BC - there was a gradual process of increasing social hierarchy throughout the neolithic era. This process is what I'm referring to.
I consider it significant because this time period closely correlates with the archeological evidence for organized war; with an increased presence in the record for war as the neolithic revolution transitioned towards metallurgy.
@ballsalsa I think we should be hesitant to draw too many parallels between chimp and human culture - we share a common ancestor, but we also diverged biologically. Just like the bonobos are significantly different, we will have our own unique flavours.
Don't think I'm arguing from some noble savage perspective. I'm sure prehistoric humans engaged in violent intergroup conflict, but organized war is less likely.
Consider the progression like this: hunting party > raiding party > professional army. The neolithic era brought about conditions that made raiding parties more favourable - Kryptos is correct to mention sedentism, I just think it's wrong to isolate that from agriculture and hierarchical social structures. This begins a process of increasingly organized warfare that culminates with the professional standing armies of the bronze-age. Maybe an oversimplification, but I understand organized warfare as the point where humans primarily support themselves via intergroup conflict.
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Kryptos
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Quote:
Enlil said: Again, morality does not change with culture or time. It is judged based on the totality of the other circumstances, though. Humans do not decide morality. Humans try to determine the morality of things. Morality itself is fixed and constant. Human understanding of morality may change, just as our understanding of gravity changes, but neither morality nor gravity changes.
So morality is a physically defined constant within the universe?
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Enlil said: And a 6 month old child, by definition, is human.
Wait, what now? Only humans can have 6 month old children?
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ballsalsa said: That would imply that morality is a thing that exists outside of the human imagination and that we can apply it to non-human creatures
Why would it not? We see animals making apparent ethical judgements of each other all the time. And of course we can apply morality to non-human creatures, that's the entire foundation of animal welfare.
Plus, we're all animals. Why would morality be any different?
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shivas.wisdom said: @Kryptos I'm not saying they happened at the same time - the archeological record doesn't offer that kind of precision. What it does reveal is that a gradual process of increasing sedentism, agriculture, societal stratification, and centralized political structure began roughly 12,000 years ago, which culminated in the bronze-age city-states at the beginning of written history; a marked departure from prehistoric human culture that continues today.
Those city-states didn't arise from nothing in the year 10,000BC - there was a gradual process of increasing social hierarchy throughout the neolithic era. This process is what I'm referring to.
I consider it significant because this time period closely correlates with the archeological evidence for organized war; with an increased presence in the record for war as the neolithic revolution transitioned towards metallurgy.
That seems definitionally correct--as societies centralized, warfare, being part of society, did as well.
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shivas.wisdom said: Maybe an oversimplification, but I understand organized warfare as the point where humans primarily support themselves via intergroup conflict.
Under this definition, organized warfare is probably common even back in nomadic times.
It kind of described banditry, more or less. That's always existed.
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Enlil
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
Enlil said: Again, morality does not change with culture or time. It is judged based on the totality of the other circumstances, though. Humans do not decide morality. Humans try to determine the morality of things. Morality itself is fixed and constant. Human understanding of morality may change, just as our understanding of gravity changes, but neither morality nor gravity changes.
So morality is a physically defined constant within the universe?
I don't know. Is it?Quote:
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Enlil said: And a 6 month old child, by definition, is human.
Wait, what now? Only humans can have 6 month old children?
Yes.
"Child /CHīld/ noun
1. a young human being below the age of puberty or below the legal age of majority: "she'd been playing tennis since she was a child""
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ballsalsa
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Yet through the bronze age and beyond, nomadic pastoralist societies also engaged in warfare. Maybe it could be argued that the impetus for that didn't exist until the advent of permanent agricultural settlements worth raiding or feuding with over territory or water access.
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Kryptos
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
Enlil said: Again, morality does not change with culture or time. It is judged based on the totality of the other circumstances, though. Humans do not decide morality. Humans try to determine the morality of things. Morality itself is fixed and constant. Human understanding of morality may change, just as our understanding of gravity changes, but neither morality nor gravity changes.
So morality is a physically defined constant within the universe?
I don't know. Is it?
It is what you are implying.
An interesting view. It is not one I share, it seems vaguely theological. Is there a way to experimentally verify this morality with universally repeatable results, Mr. dangerously-close-to-being-called-teapot?
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
Enlil said: And a 6 month old child, by definition, is human.
Wait, what now? Only humans can have 6 month old children?
Yes.
"Child /CHīld/ noun
1. a young human being below the age of puberty or below the legal age of majority: "she'd been playing tennis since she was a child""
Well in that case my modern morality deems this act immoral. Biblical morality may differ, as it was a product of the times.
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Enlil
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
An interesting view. It is not one I share, it seems vaguely theological. Is there a way to experimentally verify this morality with universally repeatable results, Mr. dangerously-close-to-being-called-teapot?
I don't see any theology in it. Philosophy, perhaps. Theology tends to be about rules set by some intelligent superior being. I'm not talking about that. It's also not a science, which seems to be what your last sentence implies.
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Re: Cuba [Re: Enlil]
#28289109 - 04/21/23 09:20 PM (9 months, 2 days ago) |
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I see. Well, I have some vacation days saved up, would you happen to know where I could find this source of ultimate Morality? Or how I find go about detecting it? Or is it more of a faith thing, Mr. teapot?
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Enlil
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I recommend starting with kant and the categorical imperative. Read some Bentham and Mill after that. Toss in some Aristotle and we can discuss further.
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Kryptos
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Re: Cuba [Re: Enlil]
#28290021 - 04/22/23 03:08 PM (9 months, 1 day ago) |
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...did you just tell me to do my own research when asked for evidence?
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Enlil
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No. First, you didn't ask for evidence. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of morality, so I suggested some reading to get an idea of how to look at the issue. After you've reached a clearer understanding of what we're talking about, we can then discuss in more detail.
Human understanding of morality is a process that has been going on for at least thousands of years. You don't really think that you and I are going to figure it out here, do you? I mean....bro...You don't seem to have even started on the problem, and I'm almost 20 years into my work on it and have barely scratched the surface.
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Kryptos
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Re: Cuba [Re: Enlil]
#28290058 - 04/22/23 03:32 PM (9 months, 1 day ago) |
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What you call a "fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of morality" places a whole lot of assumptions on what morality is.
I could say that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of God, and that you should go read the bible until you have a clearer understanding of the reality of God and then we can talk. Because that is what it sounds like to me.
I do not think that there is a distinct fundamental morality. You seem to refuse to consider the possibility that there is not one.
Perhaps, as the learned scholar, you might be willing to summarize some of these suggested readings into arguments for your position?
Or perhaps, we are at an impasse.
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Enlil
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God is a fictional character. I don't give two shits about understanding a fictional character.
So, the basic idea is that we as humans have to have some guideline for how to test an act for morality. Kant uses the term "categorical imperative" which he claims has three formulations. Setting aside the self-indulgent bullshit he spews, the basic concept is that we judge a moral by whether or not that moral, if applied universally, would be something we could "will." Bentham and mill, who are decidedly utilitarians, use a test of whether that moral, if universally applied, would maximize the "good" and minimize the "bad." Good and Bad aren't used in a moral sense as much as a human-centric positive value sense.
So, if we were to use my example of a strict prohibition on sexual intercourse with 6-month old children, Kant would ask whether we can will this prohibition to universally apply to all people? I think he would say we can. Mill would ask whether this rule would minimize the overall negative outcomes for society and maximize the overall positive. He would agree with me that it would do both.
How we doing so far?
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Re: Cuba [Re: Enlil]
#28290078 - 04/22/23 03:43 PM (9 months, 1 day ago) |
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it depends on your usage of mortality.
morality on the one hand is used to discribe a concept, by which we judge what is right and wrong.
that is always the same
morality on the other hand, is the application of that concept. and that changes from year to year decade to decade.
we have multiple definitions and usages for many words. instead of being on topic and talking about politics someone is playing cat and mouse with you chosing one way of usage or the other to ... for some unknow reason... hijack the thread.
ex: morality is how we decided what is good and evil - this is always going to be true so long as we use the word to mean that, and as a concept will always be true so long as there is a word that is used for that purpose
ex2: it is moral and right to beat your slave when they are out of line, because it helps them to know what the rules are.
this is an outdated morality and existed for thousands of years but we do not generally believe this because the general morality has evolved in better ways.
ex 3: its incredulous to me that this kind of thread hijacking would be perpetrated by a staff member.
this is a moral judgement made by me, its personal and may change extremely quickly even day to day.
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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Enlil
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Re: Cuba [Re: rxb] 1
#28290092 - 04/22/23 03:48 PM (9 months, 1 day ago) |
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You take life way too seriously, bro. This is the internet.
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ballsalsa
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Re: Cuba [Re: Enlil]
#28290101 - 04/22/23 03:52 PM (9 months, 1 day ago) |
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Wasn't this a joke thread anyway?
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336
menehune


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So did you guys reach a consensus yet? Or are we still divided on whether or not morality is subjective or objective?
-------------------- "Love is seeing the unity under the imaginary diversity."
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rxb
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Re: Cuba [Re: Enlil]
#28290116 - 04/22/23 03:59 PM (9 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: You take life way too seriously, bro. This is the internet.
not only is this the internet, this is a drug forum.
and none the less i have expounded on morality
:gasp:
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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336
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Re: Cuba [Re: rxb]
#28290120 - 04/22/23 04:02 PM (9 months, 1 day ago) |
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according to your avatar you might not be the best representation of what is moral or not.
-------------------- "Love is seeing the unity under the imaginary diversity."
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rxb
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336]
#28290124 - 04/22/23 04:04 PM (9 months, 1 day ago) |
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so you are saying that im immoral?
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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Re: Cuba [Re: rxb]
#28290128 - 04/22/23 04:05 PM (9 months, 1 day ago) |
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Does the spider catch flies? lol
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rxb
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336]
#28290132 - 04/22/23 04:07 PM (9 months, 1 day ago) |
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what do you know of my morality?
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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Enlil
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: Wasn't this a joke thread anyway?
That was my impression.
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Re: Cuba [Re: rxb]
#28290135 - 04/22/23 04:09 PM (9 months, 1 day ago) |
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well apparently you like pain. many people do not. thus what might be moral to you could easily be immoral for someone else.
-------------------- "Love is seeing the unity under the imaginary diversity."
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Enlil
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336]
#28290144 - 04/22/23 04:12 PM (9 months, 1 day ago) |
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That would mean moral subjectivity. The better way to analyze it would be whether giving pain, if requested, is moral
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rxb
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336]
#28290147 - 04/22/23 04:14 PM (9 months, 1 day ago) |
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but if it was consensual pain, then that would tend to satisfy most people's moral standard, do you know anything about my stance on consent? do you have enough information to make this moral judgement properly?
have you never watched king of the hill?
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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Re: Cuba [Re: rxb]
#28290151 - 04/22/23 04:15 PM (9 months, 1 day ago) |
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*judgment
My view on pain is that it is better to give than to receive.
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rxb
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Re: Cuba [Re: Enlil]
#28290165 - 04/22/23 04:19 PM (9 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: *judgment
My view on pain is that it is better to give than to receive.
Aenglish spellings are fluid. less so in the past 100 years but non the less... very fluid lots of rules, broken rules, exceptions to rules...
all for making an attempt at communication...
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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Re: Cuba [Re: rxb]
#28290182 - 04/22/23 04:26 PM (9 months, 1 day ago) |
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all I know is that if you are pro-pain and you have a bunch of pro-pain accessories I'm staying away from your house. whether you are moral or immoral. lmao
-------------------- "Love is seeing the unity under the imaginary diversity."
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rxb
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336]
#28290186 - 04/22/23 04:28 PM (9 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
336 said: all I know is that if you are pro-pain and you have a bunch of pro-pain accessories I'm staying away from your house. whether you are moral or immoral. lmao
thats probably for the best
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336]
#28290187 - 04/22/23 04:28 PM (9 months, 1 day ago) |
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That's the sum-total of all of your knowledge?
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Re: Cuba [Re: Enlil]
#28290192 - 04/22/23 04:29 PM (9 months, 1 day ago) |
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which part?
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Enlil
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336]
#28290218 - 04/22/23 04:34 PM (9 months, 1 day ago) |
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You started your post with "All I know is..." So I have to assume that the contents of that post is everything you know and that you do not know anything that has not been included in your post.
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Re: Cuba [Re: Enlil]
#28290222 - 04/22/23 04:35 PM (9 months, 1 day ago) |
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are you a robot? 
or just a contrarian?
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Enlil
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336]
#28290230 - 04/22/23 04:37 PM (9 months, 1 day ago) |
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I'm just gullible and take you at your word.
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menehune


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Re: Cuba [Re: Enlil]
#28290246 - 04/22/23 04:46 PM (9 months, 1 day ago) |
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now why do I doubt the honesty in that statement?
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Kryptos
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Re: Cuba [Re: Enlil]
#28290445 - 04/22/23 07:07 PM (9 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: God is a fictional character. I don't give two shits about understanding a fictional character.
So, the basic idea is that we as humans have to have some guideline for how to test an act for morality. Kant uses the term "categorical imperative" which he claims has three formulations. Setting aside the self-indulgent bullshit he spews, the basic concept is that we judge a moral by whether or not that moral, if applied universally, would be something we could "will." Bentham and mill, who are decidedly utilitarians, use a test of whether that moral, if universally applied, would maximize the "good" and minimize the "bad." Good and Bad aren't used in a moral sense as much as a human-centric positive value sense.
So, if we were to use my example of a strict prohibition on sexual intercourse with 6-month old children, Kant would ask whether we can will this prohibition to universally apply to all people? I think he would say we can. Mill would ask whether this rule would minimize the overall negative outcomes for society and maximize the overall positive. He would agree with me that it would do both.
How we doing so far?
Morality comes from the Morality God.
We imperfect humans interpret the will of the Morality God in our flawed ways to determine what is moral.
Kant, as much as he speaks of moral platitudes, still relies on personal judgement. Something that "we" could "will". Morality, or the lack thereof, is not universal but subject to the whims of the "we" in that case.
Same with Bentham and Mill. Their judgement of good and bad depends on the beholder.
So, I reject the presence of the Morality God. I simply judge morality as I see fit, dictated by the whims of my surroundings. Morality is subject to those influences in everyone, and we come to a moral consensus for any actions.
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Whatever helps you sleep at night
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rxb
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if morality came from god, or even religiosity, you would expect that the least moral people would be atheists in society, and being less moral you would expect that atheists would commit and get caught for more crimes than religious people. but what you find is actually quite the opposite, there are very few atheists in prison, very few agnostics either.
one might even conclude that a lack of morality came from god.
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
Edited by rxb (04/22/23 07:31 PM)
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Brian Jones
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Re: Cuba [Re: Enlil] 2
#28290843 - 04/23/23 05:07 AM (9 months, 16 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: That would mean moral subjectivity. The better way to analyze it would be whether giving pain, if requested, is moral
Reminds me of that joke: Masochist: "Whip me!" Sadist: "Never!"
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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