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Offline336
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Re: Cuba [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #28285888 - 04/19/23 06:32 PM (9 months, 4 days ago)

The thing is morality is subjective. It all depends on whether or not you are a slave master or a slave. For the slave master, it's entirely moral to beat, rape, exploit, and enslave; on the other hand, it is immoral from the slave master's perspective for the slave to steal, disobey, rebel, escape, or attempt to escape. And vice versa from the perspective of the slave.

We live in a neo-slave system; so it really all breaks down into these two categories. The sad thing is how many slaves have convinced themselves they are small slave-masters or that they may one day become a slave-master. And so they defend the principles of slavery.


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"Love is seeing the unity under the imaginary diversity."


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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336]
    #28285923 - 04/19/23 07:05 PM (9 months, 4 days ago)

Haven't followed the thread but judging by your above statement you're totally out of your mind. Morality isnt dependent on your position in life. The people who are "immoral" are generally disturbed individuals and their position in life has nothing to do with it. Money or lack of money doesn't effect your morality. You can find many examples of immortal rich and the poor. But the catch is most people in both realms are moral. Most people try to be good people and if you cant see that you're too far gone


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Cuba [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #28285934 - 04/19/23 07:10 PM (9 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
So in the interests of preventing authoritarianism, you support the idea of an anonymous hacker group unilaterally acting as the sole authority?



Unilateral action doesn't necessarily equate to acting as sole authority; unless that hacker group also controls various institutions such as the police, the military, the courts, the prison system, and the state bureaucracy - otherwise, it's just direct action.



At that moment they are. What is the time cutoff between "direct action" and "tyrannical authority"?

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
And yet, many people that do understand anarchy, shivas included, are unable to solve the conundrum of the man with a gun who doesn't give a fuck what you think.
[...]
To a large degree, the more authoritarian the system, the simpler the solution to that problem.



Huh? By solve, do you mean 'eliminate completely'? Because otherwise, the solution is well-known and currently-practiced: decentralized self-defence networks.

And I'm not sure if 'simpler' is the appropriate word choice. A centralized system of police, courts, and prisons has lots of moving parts - by centralizing authority, those down the hierarchy can remain uninvolved in the operation - but it's still a highly complicated solution.

It also seems, by your own admission, that authoritarian solutions just turns the man with a gun into the man with the military. If anything, such a solution sets the foundation for systematic genocide and mass murder, rather than removing the original risk.




Yes, exactly. The man with an authoritarian military does a mass murder of the decentralized self-defense network. Don't get me wrong, a decentralized self-defense network in Vietnam crippled the US, at the cost of a 1:4 K:D ratio and a generation of birth defects from agent orange. Just like the decentralized self-defense networks of Iraq and Afghanistan fought off the US military. With a K:D ratio of what, 1:200? Probably gonna have a generation of birth defects too, between the burn pits, explosive residue, and all the DU. Actually, now that I think about it, probably multiple generations on both counts.

I'll agree that the US lost both of those wars, but honestly? They don't really feel like losses to me in the US. If I was Afghani, I don't think I'd consider the ruins of my country a "win", either. Point is, it's a Pyrrhic victory to the point where I'd rather be the loser.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Oldest battlefield ever found was Jebel Sahaba, where approximately a third to half the bodies have arrowheads embedded in their skeletons.




Jebel Sahaba: 16,000–11,000 years ago
Arrowheads:  72,000–60,000 years ago

How do you explain that gap?

I think you need to re-examine your views on the natural state of humanity. Human organization goes back much further than written history - hundreds of thousands of years; millions if you consider the genus homo in it's entirety.

Decentralized organization is likely to have been the human default until some time in the neolithic era.




Organized warfare did not appear before the bow, I believe was my original assertion. I think that gap supports my assertion very well, thank you.

Otherwise, I'm not really sure why I'd be re-examining my views when you seem to confirm them? "No, the sky isn't blue, it is BLUE!"

(woops, I accidentally went out of order)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
This is also why I say morality is a luxury. People that haven't eaten in three days are a lot more willing to make some moral compromises.




What do you mean by luxury?

You seem to be using this to say that morality is more difficult than immorality. Wouldn't that make immorality the luxury? 'Something adding to pleasure or comfort but not absolutely necessary'.

Or are you using it to say that 'a condition of abundance or great ease and comfort' is a necessary precursor to morality? Once again, considering that moral action is not confined to those who live luxurious lives, this claim is self-evidently false.

To me, this claim of yours really just comes across as you attempting to rationalize your own moral choices as 'necessary' rather than personally own up to them.




Yes, By calling it a luxury I mean that morality is more difficult than immorality. You seem to interpret this in a very black and white manner which I guess I didn't understand the first time. Morality is much more accessible to the comfortable. That does not preclude morality without comfort, nor does it preclude morality with comfort. It is much like saying that a power drill is a "luxury" to a guy who can only afford a screwdriver. Yes, the guy with the screwdriver can put screws in the wall just as well as the guy with the power drill, but the power drill makes it a whole lot easier.

---

You keep saying this is rationalization. Yes, it is. Here's an analogy. I demand electricity. This does not mean I demand electricity powered by coal. I would like electricity provided by clean, safe, fusion energy. The shit that has been 20 years from now in the future since, oh, about 1950?

To continue the analogy, you seem to think I'm yelling "drill baby drill" at the top of my lungs. Nah man, my priority is electricity. Make fusion actually work, and I'll be right there behind ya.


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Offline336
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Re: Cuba [Re: MagicMush123]
    #28285965 - 04/19/23 07:33 PM (9 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Haven't followed the thread but judging by your above statement you're totally out of your mind. Morality isnt dependent on your position in life. The people who are "immoral" are generally disturbed individuals and their position in life has nothing to do with it. Money or lack of money doesn't effect your morality. You can find many examples of immortal rich and the poor. But the catch is most people in both realms are moral. Most people try to be good people and if you cant see that you're too far gone



That is of course your opinion, and you are entitled to it. History would say otherwise.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336]
    #28285971 - 04/19/23 07:36 PM (9 months, 4 days ago)

Morality is absolutely relative to circumstance.


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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Cuba [Re: Kryptos]
    #28285996 - 04/19/23 08:03 PM (9 months, 4 days ago)

Ya you guys are right that sometimes in dire circumstances people can act immorally.  That doesnt suddenly make whatever they had to do moral though. Morality isnt a pendulum


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Offline336
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Re: Cuba [Re: MagicMush123]
    #28286018 - 04/19/23 08:24 PM (9 months, 4 days ago)

Dire circumstances aren't the only circumstances that allow for violence or greed, etc. It's not that morality is a pendulum, its moreso a cultural construct that varies from culture to culture. Much of what is considered moral by many is considered highly immoral by others.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336]
    #28286054 - 04/19/23 08:45 PM (9 months, 4 days ago)

The great conservative fear of "one day, may we will be cancelled for things that are normal today" shows that morality is, indeed, relative.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336]
    #28286056 - 04/19/23 08:45 PM (9 months, 4 days ago)

It can change with time, also.

Just because an example of failed morality (by one society) that is viewed as moral (by another society), doesn't make it so. I think reaching a general consensus between all, is possible although that may be a pipedream.

Take murdering a child. Is it moral to slit the throat of a 7 year old, for the sole purpose of the act itself? Are there socities that view that as moral? If they did, would it make it moral?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Cuba [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28286065 - 04/19/23 08:51 PM (9 months, 4 days ago)

Actually, as I read this book on the history of prehistoric violence to respond to Shivas, one example stands out: Lions, in lean times, will on occasion kill cubs of other lions and usually eat them. Normally, this is done by a lioness supported by a lion, targeting a lioness who lacks such support. Among primates, on the other hand, this activity is exclusively seen carried out by males who are seeking mating rites--they will murder any children the female monkey has by other males that are not around to protect them. They do not participate in cannibalism, though.

So in fact there is a time in which the wanton slaughter of a child is moral. The theorized purpose of this act, however, is to free up the female monkey for some, uh, spanking of the monkey.

Edit: according to the wikipedia, infanticide appears to be exceedingly rare in non-human primates. Apparently, we actually stand out for child murder. There's an interesting tidbit.

Edit2: this goes into a lot of detail. Humans have evolved quite a few distinctions from other monkeys, seemingly to stop us from killing all our babies. We're really into that shit.



Edited by Kryptos (04/19/23 09:06 PM)


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Cuba [Re: Kryptos]
    #28286091 - 04/19/23 09:04 PM (9 months, 4 days ago)

I don't know, slaughtering a young monkey compared to a sick fuck killing a child for the hell of it ....doesn't seem on par. Humans have this distinction...


Additionally, just because whatever moral is not absolute in every possible circumstance ad infinitum, doesn't completely take away the validity of the moral in the vast majority of circumstances.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Cuba [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28286115 - 04/19/23 09:12 PM (9 months, 4 days ago)

See edit2 above...we actually stand out among other species for being into child murder. Although I will concede there is probably a lot of visibility bias involved, maybe monkeys have evolved in ways we haven't considered to prevent baby killing.

So, actually, school shootings are basically biologically hardwired.

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Additionally, just because whatever moral is not absolute in every possible circumstance ad infinitum, doesn't completely take away the validity of the moral in the vast majority of circumstances.




I mean...it kind of does? The whole point of a moral is that it is concerned with what is right and what is wrong. If it's only sometimes right and sometimes wrong...That's less morals and more suggestions.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Cuba [Re: Kryptos]
    #28286130 - 04/19/23 09:21 PM (9 months, 4 days ago)

I would say that child murder via serial killer is  wrong in virtually all circumstances compared to when it is right. Do you agree with that?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (04/19/23 09:22 PM)


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Cuba [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28286141 - 04/19/23 09:30 PM (9 months, 4 days ago)

Sure, but the qualifier "virtually" kind of defeats the argument, no?

It turns morality into a judgement call. I think morality is supposed to be a more concrete delineation between right and wrong.

I have a very hard time coming up with an example of something that is absolutely 100% wrong at all times, without circular definitions.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Cuba [Re: Kryptos]
    #28286142 - 04/19/23 09:31 PM (9 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
At that moment they are. What is the time cutoff between "direct action" and "tyrannical authority"?

[...]

Yes, exactly. The man with an authoritarian military does a mass murder of the decentralized self-defense network. Don't get me wrong, a decentralized self-defense network in Vietnam crippled the US, at the cost of a 1:4 K:D ratio and a generation of birth defects from agent orange. Just like the decentralized self-defense networks of Iraq and Afghanistan fought off the US military. With a K:D ratio of what, 1:200? Probably gonna have a generation of birth defects too, between the burn pits, explosive residue, and all the DU. Actually, now that I think about it, probably multiple generations on both counts.

I'll agree that the US lost both of those wars, but honestly? They don't really feel like losses to me in the US. If I was Afghani, I don't think I'd consider the ruins of my country a "win", either. Point is, it's a Pyrrhic victory to the point where I'd rather be the loser.

[...]

Organized warfare did not appear before the bow, I believe was my original assertion. I think that gap supports my assertion very well, thank you.

Otherwise, I'm not really sure why I'd be re-examining my views when you seem to confirm them? "No, the sky isn't blue, it is BLUE!"

(woops, I accidentally went out of order)

[...]

Yes, By calling it a luxury I mean that morality is more difficult than immorality. You seem to interpret this in a very black and white manner which I guess I didn't understand the first time. Morality is much more accessible to the comfortable. That does not preclude morality without comfort, nor does it preclude morality with comfort. It is much like saying that a power drill is a "luxury" to a guy who can only afford a screwdriver. Yes, the guy with the screwdriver can put screws in the wall just as well as the guy with the power drill, but the power drill makes it a whole lot easier.

---

You keep saying this is rationalization. Yes, it is. Here's an analogy. I demand electricity. This does not mean I demand electricity powered by coal. I would like electricity provided by clean, safe, fusion energy. The shit that has been 20 years from now in the future since, oh, about 1950?

To continue the analogy, you seem to think I'm yelling "drill baby drill" at the top of my lungs. Nah man, my priority is electricity. Make fusion actually work, and I'll be right there behind ya.




1) Perhaps acting as the sole authority in the limited aspect of how they exercise their own agency - but that's not the same thing as 'authoritarianism' which describes a sole authority in charge of all aspects of daily life at the expense of personal agency.

What's the difference between direct action and tyrannical authority? The first is the exercise of one's own agency; the later is the use of oppression to force the agency of others into subservience.

-----

2) Then it seems disengenous to suggest that state authority provides a meaningful solution to the conundrum in a way that anarchy is unable to, when that solution is just 'be the man with the biggest gun'. It's not a solution, it's just a way to hopefully insulate oneself from the worst results. If we're being honest, both anarchy and authority have imperfect solutions with different strengths and weaknesses in their implementation.

-----

3) You made two slightly different assertions. Warfare did not exist prior to the invention of the arrow, and the invention of the bow allowed one to kill without risking death, and warfare was invented.

The first assertion, while technically correct, incorrectly suggests that the invention of warfare quickly followed the invention of the arrow. The second assertion makes the same claim directly. Since the arrow was likely invented tens of thousands of years before the development of warfare, it seems unlikely that the ability to kill without risking death was a major instigator in the development of war. Imo, it probably has much more to do with the beginnings of the state; and the ability to both maintain a professional army and order others to fight for the benefit of a ruler.

-----

4) 'Morality is a luxury' is a black and white statement - how else was I supposed to interpret it? 'Morality is much more accessible to the comfortable.' contains nuance, but it's still an unproven assertion. In fact... Higher social class predicts increased unethical behavior


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Cuba [Re: Kryptos]
    #28286155 - 04/19/23 09:40 PM (9 months, 4 days ago)

Not really, because it creates a consensus within a person and a society of what actions are right or not. The mental gymstics one would need to do....to create a moral situation out of a horrendous act like a thrill kill  would be ridiculous. I do think just because there is a one off, or an extremely exceptional circumstance does not take away the validity of said moral.

One things for certain, humans aren't good at this.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Cuba [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #28286165 - 04/19/23 09:52 PM (9 months, 4 days ago)

1) I dunno, kinda sounds like the hacking group in this scenario is oppressing the continued enrichment of the wealthy. It is an expression of agency. Shooting up a school is also an exercise of agency.

2) I never claimed that state authority provides a meaningful solution to the concundrum. You are correct, there is no solution. There is the least bad option, and the least bad option is being the man with the biggest gun.

3) Poorly sourced argument then. I do agree that organized warfare was likely coincidental with sedentism. But it was an interesting tidbit I saw in a youtube video. The more I read my book on prehistoric warfare, the more convinced I am that ranged weapons were integral to the concept, however.

4) Perhaps I do not consider luxuries to be black and white. I consider there to be a relative spectrum of luxury.

Also, perhaps the confusion with the word luxury goes deeper, as I do not correlate it at all with higher social status. Higher social class may well predict unethical behavior for a variety of reasons, one of which being that unethical behavior is becoming a ticket to the higher social class.

I am, as I said earlier, using the world "luxury" to mean "easier". Perhaps I should call it an indulgence? Either way, I am much more concerned with my situation than I am with the situations of everyone else. Taking time and resources to act in a more moral manner requires having time and resources to spare.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Cuba [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28286170 - 04/19/23 09:55 PM (9 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Not really, because it creates a consensus within a person and a society of what actions are right or not. The mental gymstics one would need to do....to create a moral situation out of a horrendous act like a thrill kill  would be ridiculous. I do think just because there is a one off, or an extremely exceptional circumstance does not take away the validity of said moral.

One things for certain, humans aren't good at this.




I fully agree with the idea of morality by societal consensus. That's why morality is relative--it comes from the zeitgeist.


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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Cuba [Re: 336]
    #28286194 - 04/19/23 10:26 PM (9 months, 3 days ago)

Ya sure every culture has its niche but things like murder, betrayal, theft etc are universally considered immoral worldwide


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Cuba [Re: MagicMush123]
    #28286198 - 04/19/23 10:33 PM (9 months, 3 days ago)

Murder is defined as an immoral killing, so it is useless to consider. There are, however, plenty of killings that are perfectly moral and even good in our society. Like killing in self defense. Like that old guy that blew away that 20 year old girl because she turned down his driveway and scared him almost to death.

Betrayal can be good, that's why James Bond is so cool. He can sneak in, integrate, and then betray the bad guys for us.

Theft can be good too, unless you're willing to argue that a father stealing a loaf of bread or a can of beans to save the life of his starving child is immoral.


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