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Invisiblesudly
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Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28285590 - 04/19/23 03:02 PM (9 months, 4 days ago)

Either way, developed, born with, or otherwise, the disparity someone feels between themselves and the basic genders doesn't effect your life or have a societal impact anywhere near the level of drug prices and healthcare.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: sudly]
    #28286555 - 04/20/23 09:22 AM (9 months, 4 days ago)

The fact Shaquille O'Neal & Charles Barkley are Donald Trump supporters doesn't affect my life but that doesn't preclude me from voicing an opinion about them.  They are racist white supremacists who are a threat to democracy.

In all seriousness, this issue does affect members of my family.  I have a teenage son and nieces and nephews who are being taught some wackadoodle stuff.  I believe the radical gender extremists are having a significant societal impact. 

I notice a few of the adults and parents of 3 and 5 year old trans kids find the whole switching gender thing to be cute and a bit funny.  Some of them treat it like it's a game of make-believe.  Or maybe their laughter while discussing the subject is a symptom of deep emotional conflict and disturbance?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28286605 - 04/20/23 10:11 AM (9 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
... Or maybe their laughter while discussing the subject is a symptom of deep emotional conflict and disturbance?



it is substantially formative, if the kids end up hearing it


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28286797 - 04/20/23 01:36 PM (9 months, 4 days ago)

Yeah those 3 to 5 year olds arent changing genders, just dressing up and  playing with whatever toys.

Surgeries aren't available to children so I think that's a moot point. Some states have a minimum age of 16, while other 18. I do think 16 is too young and 18 should be the standard.

So in my eye the entire issue is hormone therapy at a young age which I think is a legitimate concern to have because of irreversible changes to adolescent bodies.

I think something that has a significant societal impact needs to involve millions of people to be considered as such and the hormone therapy issue doesn't reach those standards in my view, at least relative to economic issues like healthcare and drug prices.

Quote:

The number of children who started on puberty-blockers or hormones totaled 17,683 over the five-year period, rising from 2,394 in 2017 to 5,063 in 2021, according to the analysis.




Do you think any children age a between 12 and 16 should be able to access hormone therapy? With thorough psychological assessment, or just none at all until 18?


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: sudly]
    #28286847 - 04/20/23 02:14 PM (9 months, 4 days ago)

Penny Cunningham and Chloe Cole among others began taking puberty blockers at 11, testosterone at 14, double mastectomy at 15. WPATH which previously recommended surgery at age 17+ lifted age restrictions in 2022.


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rahz

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: sudly]
    #28286849 - 04/20/23 02:15 PM (9 months, 4 days ago)

so the age of consent resurfaces, but also, what is that age?
is it not voting and army enlistment age?
I think 18 is too young, but 18 may be too old for hormone blocking.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: sudly]
    #28286867 - 04/20/23 02:33 PM (9 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

I think trans issues are overstated to distract from economic issues that have real widespread impacts on peoples lives.




That could be said of a lot of news stories and I don't doubt it has that effect. But there's a clear trend among adolescents.

In 2021, about 42,000 children and teens across the United States received a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, nearly triple the number in 2017

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-data/

2 pediatric gender clinics in the US in 2007, over 300 as of 2023.

Quote:

I couldn't give one less of a shit about sperm count.




Seems pretty relevant to fitness of the general population.

Quote:

Glyphosate binds to clay particles in soil and is relatively safe compared to the variety of herbicides out there.




Also in the food: https://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20180815/roundup-chemical-in-your-cereal-what-to-know

Quote:

I hope your point isn't that chemicals are bad mmkay.




The point is that various endocrine disruptors are being consumed and absorbed. It's reasonable that it might have something to do with the drastic change in sperm count and reasonable that the absence of normal endocrine function would contribute to a rise in gender dysphoria along with various other forms of stress.


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rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28286871 - 04/20/23 02:36 PM (9 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
so the age of consent resurfaces, but also, what is that age?
is it not voting and army enlistment age?
I think 18 is too young, but 18 may be too old for hormone blocking.




I read it as "lifting of age restrictions" in the guidelines I mentioned. Similar to the UN recommending no age restrictions for sexual activity with consent.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: Rahz]
    #28286877 - 04/20/23 02:42 PM (9 months, 3 days ago)

We can drink, smoke, marry copulate and all from 18 in Australia, so that's the age I think our semblance of independence begins.

21 for drinks lol.

Quote:

You may need to wait until you are 16 to begin hormone treatment, but you may be able to take puberty blockers in the meantime.

If you are on hormone therapy, you can utilize the health center for ongoing care and monitoring. In order to receive gender affirming hormone therapy services you need to be over 18 (or 16-17 with parental consent) and capable of providing consent for services. There are special consents for these services.

Be over the age of 16 for top surgery, or 18 for bottom surgery. Some surgeons will provide surgery to younger people in very specific situations. Ensure that any physical or mental health conditions are well managed.




A lot of people who have gender dysphoria don't go through transitions, and again those who do have a 1% regret rate, lower than knee surgeries or having children which has to be recognised.

Lead in petrol is thought to have led to a lot of mental health problems in people during the 20th century. I just want recognise that your assumptions are speculative in regard to endocrine stuff.

Where's the hysteria about having children or knee surgeries?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: Rahz]
    #28286900 - 04/20/23 03:01 PM (9 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
...
I read it as "lifting of age restrictions" in the guidelines I mentioned. Similar to the UN recommending no age restrictions for sexual activity with consent.



does this mean consensual child porn may be legal?


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: Rahz]
    #28286901 - 04/20/23 03:02 PM (9 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
so the age of consent resurfaces, but also, what is that age?
is it not voting and army enlistment age?
I think 18 is too young, but 18 may be too old for hormone blocking.




I read it as "lifting of age restrictions" in the guidelines I mentioned. Similar to the UN recommending no age restrictions for sexual activity with consent.




What shocks me is how you've represented the UN comments with a hysterical conclusion. I only just heard of this and looked into it to find this.

Quote:

I want to read something on behalf of our colleagues at the Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS (UNAIDS), because there has been a lot of — how to say — malicious misreporting on a recent report on the age of legal consent.  And I can tell you that the report released by the International Commission of Jurists in March has recently been misrepresented on a number of websites.  It did not call for the decriminalization of sex with children, nor did it call for the abolition of the age of consent. The International Commission of Jurists report set out legal principles to guide the application of the international human rights law to criminal law across a range of issues.  In the application of law, it is recognized that criminal sanctions are not appropriate against adolescents of similar ages for consensual non-exploitative sexual activity.  So, too, it is recognized that adolescents should not be prevented from accessing health services, which protect them.  The UN is resolute in fighting the sexual exploitation of children, upholds that sexual exploitation and abuse of children is a crime, and supports countries to protect children.

https://press.un.org/en/2023/db230418.doc.htm




The disparity between our approach would be good to highlight. How we came to our differing views.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: sudly]
    #28286946 - 04/20/23 03:32 PM (9 months, 3 days ago)

I read the text of the recommendation

"Moreover, sexual conduct involving persons below the domestically prescribed
minimum age of consent to sex may be consensual in fact, if not in law. In this
context, the enforcement of criminal law should reflect the rights and capacity of
persons under 18 years of age to make decisions about engaging in consensual
sexual conduct and their right to be heard in matters concerning them."


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: Rahz]
    #28286989 - 04/20/23 04:11 PM (9 months, 3 days ago)

But you didn't look into it yourself to try and verify whether the hysterical conclusion you came to had any merit. Or atleast I think you threw nuance and context to the wind to form a misrepresentation of the report that aligned with a hysterical outcome.

And again, where's the hysteria in having children or knee surgeries?


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (04/20/23 04:21 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: sudly]
    #28287078 - 04/20/23 05:05 PM (9 months, 3 days ago)

right so minors can have consensual sex with minors only
and i suppose the definition of consent means that it is not (a) setup by non-minor(s). i.e child porn remains illegal.
this lack of involvement of non-minors would this also restrict surgery by non minors, but not consensual surgery of minors by minors (who are surgeons.) except in the case of emergency surgery to treat acute conditions.

I suppose there are a number of trust issues across the boards.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28287104 - 04/20/23 05:19 PM (9 months, 3 days ago)

I think it's suggesting that treating adolescents that interact with other adolescents with criminal sanctions can have unintended or more negative consequences than may be necessary.

I think above 18 whatever surgery is taken is between the individual and their medical professionals because be it a transition, a knee surger or having a child, not everyone will be happy the the outcome of their decisions, but at least by 18 I think they are able to express a level of personal responsibility that enables them to make such choices for themselves.

Not sure if you're suggesting children performing surgery on other children, but I would say that's pretty obviously not going to happen.

Social pressure is a real issue though and I think kids should be reassured and educated to not follow the crowd or do something they don't want to because their friends or peers are.

Mental health and general support for adolescents of any kind is vital imo.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: sudly]
    #28287132 - 04/20/23 05:37 PM (9 months, 3 days ago)

The nuance in the source material is the issue. Presumption of consent will effect how laws are changed in the future regardless of what someone says about it in a news article.

I assume dissatisfaction with knee surgery is due to the surgery not providing the expected benefit. There's a chance that will happen. There is zero chance a man can be surgically altered into a woman. While I have stated it's not a liberty issue I do find it disconcerting that this delusional premise is promoted, and more often to children. It's also making it's way into women's sports, their private spaces, sleeping quarters, etc. Here in America, men are women of the year.

And while I don't have data to provide proof endocrine disruptors are specifically disrupting human biology en masse, I provided links showing it's in our food, often at levels above safe limits. It's not proven objectively responsible for the remarkable reduction in sperm count, but it's not a bad guess. And if it's wrong, we're still left with a remarkable reduction in sperm count that needs to be explained.

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/soy-formula-feeding-during-infancy-associated-severe-menstrual-pain-adulthood

In this case, not a contaminant but possibly the product itself.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #28287173 - 04/20/23 06:14 PM (9 months, 3 days ago)

This is what you said,
Quote:

Similar to the UN recommending no age restrictions for sexual activity with consent.




The report used pretty clear language, and it seems you knowingly or otherwise attempted to spread a hysterical conclusion with a contextually lacking interpretation of what the report said.

Again, the regret rate or trans surgeries are around 1% with a greater level of regret for knee surgeries or having children. You appear to be minimising the success of such transition surgeries.

Bottom surgeries make quite a difference for some people, and any hole's a goal does apply.

In sports I do actually take issues with trans people, not because of an elevated testosterone level, because that can be reduced. I have an issue with trans women who have already gone through puberty to gain higher muscle mass than other female counterparts and it's this development that gives them an unfair advantage.

Some formula factories aren't regulated well, like how a few months ago a lot of babies died because of contaminated products in the US.

Glyphosate as an endocrine dysruptor seems a hot debate with less clarity than I expected, I wouldn't be surprised if there were effects from its presence, but I think specifics for now are speculative.

Quote:

We use as guideline the ten key characteristics (KCs) of EDC proposed in
the expert consensus statement published in 2020 (La Merrill et al., 2020) and discuss the scopes of some

epidemiological studies for the evaluation of glyphosate as possible EDC. We conclude that glyphosate

satisfies at least 8 KCs of an EDC, however, prospective cohort studies are still needed to elucidate the real
effects in the human endocrine system.

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chemosphere.2020.128619




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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: sudly]
    #28287214 - 04/20/23 06:38 PM (9 months, 3 days ago)

It's pretty clear they're ascribing sexual consent to minors without giving specifics which is how it will be used in legislation.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/01/11/child-brides-us-approved-thousands-bride-requests-over-decade/2545951002/

I don't know the specifics of the 1%, how long after surgery the patients were questioned, how that number might change over time, but it's only one facet of a larger issue involving the delusion that sex can be changed.

https://www.chop.edu/news/babies-fed-soy-based-formula-have-changes-reproductive-system-tissues

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(96)09480-9/fulltext

"The daily exposure of infants to isoflavones in soy infant-formulas is 6–11 fold higher on a bodyweight basis than the dose that has hormonal effects in adults consuming soy foods"


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28287242 - 04/20/23 07:09 PM (9 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
...who are a threat to democracy.




Sounds like you are saying democracy is something we need to defend.

If half of all people are below average what's the sense in mob rule / pandering to the masses? They're just going to vote for more debt until we have a systemic implosion.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28287255 - 04/20/23 07:21 PM (9 months, 3 days ago)

I've read Mackay. He wasn't talking about social insanity, he was talking about the tulip craze of Holland as it relates to prices going up and up while the market moves like a herd of mindless beasts that are oblivious to the fact that prices are too high relative to the fundamental underlying value of the goods being sold... such as a $16 million tulip bulb.

But yeah I think our society has become too utopian for some, they are displaying "rat utopia" syndrome.

In saving a bee swarm one has to get the queen, grab all one can, box them up, and go. No matter how hard one tries, some bees will always be left behind to die. That's just how it is. To improve the society solutions cannot be aimed at the individual, but have to be systemic. The entire system must be lifted up, and as the mean citizen is elevated with more prosperity, each standard deviation going down will benefit as well. Eliminating rich people does not fix anything. The aggregate is what matters.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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