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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: sudly] * 1
    #28281752 - 04/17/23 08:35 AM (9 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Progressive policies like universal healthcare, progressive taxation, paid family leave, increasing the minimum wage and criminal justice reform are designed to decrease wealth inequality and improve general welfare. They aim to provide greater economic security and opportunities to those who are disadvantaged or marginalised in society.




And yet the wealth gap grows. :shrug:

Regarding the transgender issue, it's the pharmaceutical and medical industry that sees financial profit not the transgender community. And again, a big concern isn't about adults but children. There's a claim that the first pediatric gender clinic opened in the US in 2007. While I don't care to be definitive about that it's certainly true that hundreds have opened since. I've read various anecdotal stories regarding the ease with which treatment began with doctors pulling parents aside to tell them they could have a dead boy or a trans girl.

Delusions that are supported by society are still delusions. Social contagions regarding the fantasy that gay men and/or hormonally challenged individuals (which might be due to environmental issues) were born in the wrong body are not simply grassroots efforts but pushed onto society by those who will profit from it. There is clear evidence. Transgenders people require a lifetime of care. Societal support for delusional beliefs does seem to reduce dysphoria to a degree but the suicide rate remains high because the symptoms are addressed rather than underlying mental issues that cause dysphoria, being unhappy with the body they were born with and the reality that no amount of surgery or drugs will fundamentally alter that.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: Rahz]
    #28281902 - 04/17/23 10:32 AM (9 months, 7 days ago)

To use the US as an example, they don't have progressive policies, so yah, the wealth gap grows.

There sure are a lot of  complexities and nuances to gender identity. I would ask if you can elaborate on why you believe it is a mental illness or a delusion. I think it is important to emphasise the importance of respecting individual autonomy and allowing people to express themselves in a way that feels authentic and true to them.

I used to not understand how someone could actually consider themselves transgender, and there was a girl transitioning into a male that I found attractive and made out with a few times. In my mind she was a girl, in his mind he wasn't, and it only really struck me when he said he said only did anal because he was a guy. This was before he began hormone therapy and now he looks more masculine.

It took me going through this experience to realise how heartfelt and genuine the gender identity of people really are, and I came out of it with a lot more respect and understanding for what he was going through.

I have no issue calling someone a he or a she if that's their preference, but I don't do pronouns and will never call someone it or they because it is derogatory in my view.

The high suicide rate among transgender individuals is not solely caused by dysphoria or the desire to change their bodies, but is also influenced by social stigmatisation, discrimination, and lack of support.

There is a financial aspect to the medical treatment of transgender individuals, but I think it is unfair to suggest that medical and pharmaceutical industries are pushing the idea of gender dysphoria solely for financial gain, because the genuine desire to transition comes from the individual and not from external forces.

There are age limits for gender conforming surgeries and thorough psychological evaluations that take place, and as pointed to earlier there's about a 1% rate of regret, with some of them looking to reversals.

In regard to adolescents, I think you're referring to hormone therapy and I definitely think there's room for debate around appropriate treatments because when started at an early age it can have long lasting or irreversible effects on their development. I don't think medical intervention for gender dysphoria is the norm though, I mean medical professionals have strict guidelines and protocols for treating gender dysphoria in children. Sometimes treatment just involves providing them with the tools and resources to help them feel more comfortable and accepted in their own bodies.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: sudly] * 1
    #28282207 - 04/17/23 02:55 PM (9 months, 6 days ago)

It's not a US only issue

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/apr/11/australias-richest-captured-93-of-economic-growth-between-2009-financial-crisis-and-covid-paper-shows

https://www.cpacanada.ca/en/public-interest/public-policy-government-relations/economic-policy-research/income-inequality-canada

Or a Western issue

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/storythreads/2020-12-24/china-has-a-huge-wealth-gap-problem-and-it-s-getting-worse

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/japan-confronts-rising-inequality-after-abenomics-2021-10-12/

Outside the bounds of rich modern nations the same problem is apparent.

Quote:

I would ask if you can elaborate on why you believe it is a mental illness or a delusion.




Because it's not generally a gender issue. It's a sex issue. Body dysmorphia is essentially a mental illness and when a person believes they are or should be a sex they are not it's delusional.

Suggesting this in the context of an adult issue doesn't mean a de facto lack of compassion or that people shouldn't have the right to their liberty, but pediatric gender clinics aren't specifically psychological therapy centers. They either employ or refer to endocrinologists and the anecdotal evidence I've read suggests the guidelines and protocols you mention can be safely ignored.

Regarding the 1% figure you cite, I'll guess my sig quote is relevant and the situation has not yet matured. Add in the younger and younger ages at which treatment begins and I'll guess that number will eventually be substantially higher.

Reading page 22 of the March principles I linked earlier doesn't exactly instill further confidence that these policy makers have the interest of children in mind.


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rahz

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: Rahz]
    #28282267 - 04/17/23 03:40 PM (9 months, 6 days ago)

I could say that about people who believe they are going to heaven.
they are delusional

maybe instead of denying heaven bound souls their sex changes we should help everyone who thinks they are going to heaven to get there.

sometimes you can say brilliant things.
and dig up the numbers to back up all kinds of delusional crap.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: Rahz]
    #28282305 - 04/17/23 04:06 PM (9 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:

And again, a big concern isn't about adults but children.




Recently I was talking to an 75-year-old friend of 8 years.  She told me her six-year-old nephew became trans when he was three years old.  The three-year-old boy insisted he was a girl and eventually the parents and the rest of the family decided the boy was to be called a girl.

I met a mother last fall who introduced me to her two kids aged four and five years old.  She told me, "My children are non-binary".  How confusing this must be to children.  The mother appeared very proud to tell me her kids are non-binary.  They kids just stared at the ground. 

Kids live in a fantasy world of dragons, tooth fairies, Tinker Bell, Yu-Gi-Oh! characters, and Peter Pan.  Imagine if some parents supported their son identifying as a medieval dragon.  That would seem crazy.  We used to call this "make believe", where you can be anything you want in the story.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28282425 - 04/17/23 04:58 PM (9 months, 6 days ago)

transitioning is not a trifle, and the signs are not the same across the board.

At thirteen I sat only with the girls exclusively for lunch, I had nothing to do with boys or sports or clubs. I did not want to fit in or compete.

But at seven I had nothing to do with girls. I think it maybe had to do with the products they fussed with or how their parents treated them. I played with my brothers or boys on the street. Obviously I got over it.

I was not looking for attention, however I must say people gave me space as they did not know what to expect from a gentle person who walks away from the assigned flock or from assumed norms.

being a bit off-norm sexually before you are sexually of age can really scare adults I will tell you that.

the only thing I lived up to was my reputation for reading biology texts.

Eventually I married had kids, became custodial, remarried and raised 2 lovely daughters who now have families of their own.

I don't believe gender identification should be a public political issue, and while each case is different it is a private thing and may not be what it looks like.

In my case I did not want to be that different after all. I hope that kids will still have a chance to seem different and not have to commit before they are of voting age, driving age, age of consent etc.

We need to be patient to let science catch up with the trend, so that if an adult male wants to be female they can effectively transition even after growing manly. Crystallizing children makes no sense to me. they are too complicated.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: Rahz]
    #28282693 - 04/17/23 08:20 PM (9 months, 6 days ago)

Wealth inequality is growing all around the place which is why it'd be nice to see specific progressive policies for greater transparency and no dark money or legalised bribery in any of those countries.

I think it is good to remember that gender dysphoria is a complex issue that requires a nuanced understanding. While it may be related to the physical aspects of sex, it also encompasses a persons internal sense of gender identity. It's not just a matter of feeling uncomfortable with ones body, but rather a fundamental disconnect between ones gender identity and their assigned sex at birth.

In terms of treatment, it is important to consider all options and make informed decisions based on individual circumstances. While anecdotal evidence can be helpful, it's also important to rely on well established guidelines and protocols to ensure the safety and well being of patients.

I understand there are concerns about pediatric gender clinics and the need to prioritise the best interests of children.

Policy makers need to carefully consider the impact of their decisions on young people and to prioritise their well being. However, I do believe that psychological therapy can be a beneficial component of gender affirming care for children and adolescents experiencing gender dysphoria.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psychosis [Re: sudly]
    #28282728 - 04/17/23 08:48 PM (9 months, 6 days ago)

Do you believe in wealth redistribution?

From people who are mega rich and don't need the money at all?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: sudly]
    #28282849 - 04/17/23 10:01 PM (9 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
...
I think it is good to remember that gender dysphoria is a complex issue that requires a nuanced understanding. While it may be related to the physical aspects of sex, it also encompasses a persons internal sense of gender identity.
...




sometimes kids behave like the monster their elders are imagining them to be  in order to escape their parents' or school's wrath for not living up to expectations.

They are cooperating with expectations, as they understand it,

becoming the devils that were insinuated upon them by the forces around them .


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28282864 - 04/17/23 10:18 PM (9 months, 6 days ago)

Kids are little shits.
:themoreyouknow:


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: sudly] * 1
    #28283412 - 04/18/23 08:50 AM (9 months, 6 days ago)

It would be nice. But such notions don't change things. Certainly there are people working for that change but without a critical mass of individuals it's like bailing water in a boat that's still sinking. Even absent modern psychological manipulation people tend to stick with what they know. What seems safe. Even when the world is obviously falling apart people will tend to support it, hoping to survive on the crumbs that fall from the table of the wealthy. The people are purposefully divided into sides so that populist movements fail regardless of their origin.

I take issue with the idea of "assigned sex". As a logical individual I would think you would as well. Sex is noted at birth. To deny this basic biological reality is delusional. It's true that a small number of individuals are intersex but this doesn't explain the phenomena we're discussing.

You are right that all forms of treatment should be considered, but in order to do that effectively it's necessary to understand the nature of a pathology.

Over the past 50 years sperm count has declined 50% around the globe.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/18/health/sperm-counts-decline-debate/index.html

Why is this?

https://news.berkeley.edu/2010/03/01/frogs/

Atrazine does leech into the water and does affect the endocrine system of animals.

MSG does promote spermatogenesis dysfunction.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7151728/

Sodium Benzoate, a common preservative is possibly harmful to reproductive health. Not to mention it's converted to benzene when in a solution of ascorbic acid. A study I cannot find at the moment suggests 5% of sodas examined contain more benzene than that suggested safe limit of 5 ppb. Other studies suggest sodium benzoate causes inflammation in proportion to the amount consumed. I'm including it because I remember reading that it has use as a spermicide. While I was unable to find a link I asked GPT and got this response

Quote:

No, I cannot provide a link to sodium benzoate being used as a spermicide. Sodium benzoate is a food preservative that is sometimes added to cosmetics and personal care products as a preservative, but it is not approved for use as a spermicide in any country. The use of sodium benzoate as a spermicide is not supported by scientific evidence and it may even have harmful effects on sperm and reproductive health. If you are looking for a reliable form of contraception, it is important to consult with a healthcare provider who can recommend safe and effective options.




Glyphosate

http://www.i-sis.org.uk/Glyphosate_Roundup_and_Human_Male_Infertility.php

Fluoridation - After many years of spiking the water in various countries with 1.2 ppm of fluoride the recommended level has been lowered to .7 ppm due to various studies such as this one

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/fluoride-childrens-health-grandjean-choi/

It's also linked to reproductive issues.

Estrogen leeches into the water supply via various sources. Phytoestrogens are in food and seem to have a notable effect on babies.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34801523/

Arsenic is linked to reproductive health issues

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26973968/

Mercury poisoning - we live in a world where we must monitor our fish consumption there's so much of it in the environment and it's linked to reproductive health issues.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30831212/

Plastic from chemicals... reproductive health issues

https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/is-plastic-a-threat-to-your-health

While I've tried to keep this list restricted to chemicals that have notable effects there are many others which are harmful to reproductive health that are easy to argue aren't present in quantities that cause harm, but one must also consider the reasonable idea that such chemicals might have a cumulative effect that is difficult to prove in a lab.

Constant stress and elevated cortisol levels have an effect on fertility. It apparently was the the sole cause of reproductive issues in the Calhoun rodent experiments.

And then there is the question of motive. I suppose that profit and disregard for human health is the prime motivator, although it would be foolish to assume it's the only motive.

Darwin wrote in his book The Descent of Man "Thus, the weak members of civilized societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man."

Julian Huxley wrote "The lowest strata are reproducing too fast. Therefore . . . they must not have too easy access to relief or hospital treatment lest the removal of the last check on natural selection should make it too easy for children to be produced or to survive; long unemployment should be a ground for sterilization."

George Bernard Shaw "If people are fit to live, let them live under decent human conditions. If they are not fit to live, kill them in a decent, human way."

H G Wells promoted the killing of alcoholics, people with physical and mental illness and sterilization of inferior people.

Margaret Sanger, founder of planned parenthood "Feeble-minded persons, habitual congenital criminals, those afflicted with inheritable disease, and others found biologically unfit by authorities qualified to judge should be sterilized or, in cases of doubt, should be so isolated as to prevent the perpetuation of their afflictions by breeding."

Paul Ehrlich "We must have population control at home, hopefully through a system of incentives and penalties, but by compulsion if voluntary methods fail."

Ted Turner "A total population of 250-300 million people, a 95 per cent decline from present levels, would be ideal."

David Brower "Childbearing should be a punishable crime against society, unless the parents hold a government license... All potential parents required to use contraceptive chemicals, the government issuing antidotes to citizens chosen for childbearing."

One may argue that eugenics is a relic of the past but not all of these citations are ancient news. As well, post birth abortion has gained steam in the last several decades.

https://jme.bmj.com/content/39/5/261.full

And there are other recent events and potential contaminants I decline to mention due to their controversial nature. But something has caused the very notable increase in reproductive health issues over the last 50 years and I believe that is largely responsible for the gender dysphoria that is apparent now. There are many policy makers who don't give a damn about the physical or mental health of children.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: Rahz]
    #28283885 - 04/18/23 02:38 PM (9 months, 5 days ago)

Whatever someone else thinks their sex is, is good enough for me, because I honestly don't care. It makes no difference to my life and if people feel more comfortable that way I'm all for it.

I think trans issues are overstated to distract from economic issues that have real widespread impacts on peoples lives.

I couldn't give one less of a shit about sperm count. Even so, environmental toxins are a relevant issue.

Birth pills leak estrogen into water ways, and there are plenty of pharmaceutical metabolites we excrete.

Agricultural runoff is pretty bad for waterways.

Food additives might not always be safe in extended or large doses either. There are several banned in Europe that the US still utilises.

Glyphosate binds to clay particles in soil and is relatively safe compared to the variety of herbicides out there. There are a lot of herbicide free farming methods available nowadays from computerised and mechanical like raking devices to electrification of specifically conductive plants.

An adaptation to fluoride levels seems reasonable enough.

Umm, yeah arsenic isn't good, and watch out for green wallpaper in Victorian era houses!

Microplastics are quite a growing concern. The 8 million tonnes of trash thrown into the oceans aren't touched by paper straws and I think the individual carbon footprint is a greenwashing for consumers to feel better about spending more.

I hope your point isn't that chemicals are bad mmkay.

I think the decision to give homosexual individuals the death penalty in Uganda is rather divisive. Suggestions of the death penalty for abortions is also highly divisive imv. Something that has reared its head recently in the US.

If people want to selectively breed then whatever ey. :shrug:

Quote:

Rahz said: But something has caused the very notable increase in reproductive health issues over the last 50 years and I believe that is largely responsible for the gender dysphoria that is apparent now. 




At least you are being upfront about your own point of view.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: sudly]
    #28285422 - 04/19/23 01:37 PM (9 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:

It's not just a matter of feeling uncomfortable with ones body, but rather a fundamental disconnect between ones gender identity and their assigned sex at birth.




How does a child develop a "gender identity"? 

If it's an outgrowth of cultural gender roles, then why don't we tell boys it's fine to wear pink dresses and wear earrings, in order to deal with this "disconnect" between the behavior they wish to engage in, and the gender roles of the culture.  What does their genitals have to do with it?

A boy wanting to "dress and act like a girl" seems like a regressive notion.  What does that even mean?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28285450 - 04/19/23 01:49 PM (9 months, 5 days ago)

I think it gets projected onto them and shamed into them, I do not think it is a quest on the child's part; they just want to be accepted and cared for, and not sternly told "no" too much. Also blippy and baby shark, lots of that and maybe peppa the pig


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28285476 - 04/19/23 02:04 PM (9 months, 5 days ago)

If gender identity is a product of shame and projection, shouldn't that be the thing that needs to change?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28285484 - 04/19/23 02:10 PM (9 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
If gender identity is a product of shame and projection, shouldn't that be the thing that needs to change?



parents change(?)
usually they are too exhausted.
we have to awaken while still in high school
awaken to more than romeo and juliet, and the names and dates of presidents.

we have to awaken to theory of mind, and to yoga, and developmental psychology.
to understand ourselves and to more easily be in synch with the next generation.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28285501 - 04/19/23 02:20 PM (9 months, 5 days ago)

If parents are imposing shame and gender roles on children, and that is causing the child to experience inner conflicts, why don't we address this? 

The parents are too exhausted to change?  They are unable to change?

Are you pulling my leg?    :laugh:


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28285503 - 04/19/23 02:22 PM (9 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

sudly said:

It's not just a matter of feeling uncomfortable with ones body, but rather a fundamental disconnect between ones gender identity and their assigned sex at birth.




How does a child develop a "gender identity"? 

If it's an outgrowth of cultural gender roles, then why don't we tell boys it's fine to wear pink dresses and wear earrings, in order to deal with this "disconnect" between the behavior they wish to engage in, and the gender roles of the culture.  What does their genitals have to do with it?

A boy wanting to "dress and act like a girl" seems like a regressive notion.  What does that even mean?




I'm a guy, by early adolescents that was pretty confirmed. Some people around me also thought of themselves as guys.

There are no cultural gender roles in my view, I don't care if guys wear dresses or girls drive trucks.

I think its a mental picture or prerefence of themselves that some people develop as they grow.

I'd say the whole trans issue is a non-issue thing.

This trans talk is a cultural debate that steers away from economic issues. The amount of people it effects are negligable in comparison to economic issues like healthcare and drug prices. And with a regret rate of 1% for transitions, what does that say about the success rate of gender affirming care? Especially when compared to other issues like having children or more accepted surgeries?

Because having a child has a 7% regret rate or so. A knee replacement has anywhere between 6-30% regret. Across all types of surgery, the regret rate is
14%.

Transition and trans related surgeries
have a 1% regret rate

It seems that in the context of trans affirming care successful treatment in 99% of cases is treated as dangerous, whereas in all other areas of healthcare a 99% success rate would be treated as an absolute miracle, or a good milestone of achievement that shows effectiveness.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: sudly]
    #28285534 - 04/19/23 02:38 PM (9 months, 4 days ago)

I'm trying to understand.  If gender identity is a mental picture or preference of ourselves that we develop as we grow, then some people develop a mental picture of themselves that is in conflict with their genitals?  If there are no cultural gender roles, then the conflict that exists is between ones mental picture and ones genitals?   

Isn't gender affirming another way of saying gender denial?

In this case "gender" meaning genitals one was born with?

I'm truly confused.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28285541 - 04/19/23 02:43 PM (9 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
If parents are imposing shame and gender roles on children, and that is causing the child to experience inner conflicts, why don't we address this? 

The parents are too exhausted to change?  They are unable to change?

Are you pulling my leg?    :laugh:



It is residual stupidity,
my parents had it
I had it
changing reflexes is non-trivial.
changing habits is non-trivial.
my father used to laugh at me as if he were in a bar with his friends.
honestly, I never got over it.
but I soon discovered that his kind of insensitivity is common and normal.

I was a bit more sensitive, but getting out of habituated roles is not an easy thing to manage.


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