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thetruthsohelp
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Registered: 03/17/22
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psyhosis [Re: Rahz]
#28273325 - 04/11/23 05:55 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Rahz said: A growing wealth gap means the poor get poorer while the middle class slide into poverty and creates an atmosphere of despair. The government brings in record taxes, but are spending ever greater amounts servicing the debt and supporting many hundreds of military bases around the world to perpetuate a fiat current that is being devalued. Leisure computers and social media is especially unkind to freedom loving countries as long term gratification is given up for porn and video games, social isolation and living the soft life, which shelters ever greater numbers of people from emotional maturity via the loss of commitments and obligations, conflict resolution, etc. Parents are affected in greater numbers leaving their children to these devices (neglect) or trying to isolate them and mold them which prevents the creation of self-identity. Pathologies increase and with no end in sight to the financial malaise the despair fuels hopelessness and victim mentality. Greater and greater amounts are spent on health care but it is a loosing battle that results in greater and greater numbers of mentally ill.
A lot of good points here, but it would take me too long to unpack and properly respond. Overall though I agree.
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redgreenvines
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thetruthsohelp said:
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redgreenvines said: the ancients had less understanding of mind. we still have illusions about mind, health, and order in society. USA supports free screaming, not only free speech, and if you want, get a gun, but then what are you going to do. more screaming. be free. it's mixed up.
I disagree, I think the ancients had a good understanding of mind, possibly better than our current western psychoanalytical academics, with the exception of Carl Jung and a few others.
that would be speculation, and I am not sure how you can speculate that.
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thetruthsohelp
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
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thetruthsohelp said:
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redgreenvines said: the ancients had less understanding of mind. we still have illusions about mind, health, and order in society. USA supports free screaming, not only free speech, and if you want, get a gun, but then what are you going to do. more screaming. be free. it's mixed up.
I disagree, I think the ancients had a good understanding of mind, possibly better than our current western psychoanalytical academics, with the exception of Carl Jung and a few others.
that would be speculation, and I am not sure how you can speculate that.
It is speculation youre right becuase I don't know quite how to judge the quality of a field which is in its infacy like psychology of mind. Even the best of philosophers and psychologists are prodding around in the dark over this subject. But I guess I can say where i have found value, but that is pretty subjective at best.
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SirTripAlot
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People act differently in groups. Insert a puesdo fake belonging via a smartphone, wallah.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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syncro
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It's another opinion but I'd say meditative teachings certainly are superior to modern therapies, and it would depend on one's needs and abilities, but if meditation belongs to the ancients, they win this.
Edited by syncro (04/11/23 08:18 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psychosis [Re: syncro]
#28273844 - 04/12/23 03:29 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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syncro said: It's another opinion but I'd say meditative teachings certainly are superior to modern therapies, and it would depend on one's needs and abilities, but if meditation belongs to the ancients, they win this.
it was only ever practiced by a few, and still is. it comes from the self, not from vague records in the past. if anything, we have much more published and shared about meditation now, in methods and in analysis of the resultant states.
also it is fundamentally a natural thing, which may actually be practiced by cats and other creatures.
the term "wisdom of the ancients" is a sales pitch, beware.
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syncro
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Some teachers go far in rejecting other teachings. Marketing 101 I guess.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psychosis [Re: syncro]
#28273894 - 04/12/23 04:32 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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the translation of Dharma is sometimes called teachings; but often the desire of the teacher is conflated with teachings. I think if you cannot point to a specific book or set of books then this is not validly the "wisdom of the ancients", but a custom package of somebody's ego mixed with snippets and quotes to validate their dialog.
vaguely referring to the "wisdom of the ancients" is lazy and actually pretentious.
everyone benefits by being more specific in their meanings
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syncro
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It might be easier to find dharmas in which I don't like to sift for validity, and those would be ones that I haven't familiarity. And why would I specify here where you are aiming to take a leak on them? Not that I'd be convinced. Again, different directions on the circle arriving at the same point. Embracing them all, rejecting them all. As said it goes back to self.
The way you identify consciousness and mental activity negates nothing. It is another religion. I like it actually, what I think I can understand. Rejecting other approaches is not useful to me, if they are not intended to harm.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psychosis [Re: syncro]
#28273960 - 04/12/23 06:06 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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I would view your reference to teachings as a romantic enchantment, and that might explain why you don't want to be specific.
When you talk about me urinating on your books, this is not a thing I do or even think about or have done. I am not defensive about what I know or think, and when I question people or ask them to be specific, it is not an attack, not a put down, it is an effort to dispel the fog.
SO if you do have a "teaching" that you respect and care about, be up front - do not hide it because you think I want to piss on your source.
This is a forum about philosophy and psychology, clear honest thinking has a home here.
Enchantment is a wonderful thing, but fog is a very dull substitute, so do not be mysterious about what you mean by "teachings" if you want to use that word and not get lumped in with new age fluff heads who are more at home in the fog of the mysticism forum where you do not have to explain what you mean, you can just put out your attitude and done.
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thetruthsohelp
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I do find that introspection is was more emphasized in ancient cultures whereas in the west you are rewarded the more socially and extropectively you act within society. Its a difficult nut to crack when it comes to philosophy of mind, but to say the ancients had less to say about the mind and the condition of the soul and how to live a virtuous life than the modern world is going too far. The basis for rule of law, democracy, recourse to reason, apologetics, all of the categories of philosophy, ethics, epistemology, all of these things came from the ancients originally and form the basis still of our societies today, so we can't ignore it. Especially we should learn from the mistakes of history and I fear we are making the same mistakes over and over and not learning as a society, so there's that.
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redgreenvines
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thetruthsohelp said: I do find that introspection is was more emphasized in ancient cultures whereas in the west you are rewarded the more socially and extropectively you act within society. Its a difficult nut to crack when it comes to philosophy of mind, but to say the ancients had less to say about the mind and the condition of the soul and how to live a virtuous life than the modern world is going too far. The basis for rule of law, democracy, recourse to reason, apologetics, all of the categories of philosophy, ethics, epistemology, all of these things came from the ancients originally and form the basis still of our societies today, so we can't ignore it. Especially we should learn from the mistakes of history and I fear we are making the same mistakes over and over and not learning as a society, so there's that.
in some documents that seem to have survived (or have fraudulently been represented as authentically ancient) it is possible that introspection was valued and taught. in ancient sculpture, certainly, beauty was adored.
The rewards, in the past, however, were fraught with fealty issues, and at the other end of the spectrum there was slavery abuse and death.
Introspection may have been the only refuge, but we cannot be certain of that either. Life was shorter, harder, meaner, and those who grew older probably made themselves useful to kings and tyrants.
So if we talk about the wisdom of the ancients, we are mostly speaking about modern book promotions, self help self-promoters, and educational TV shows that hold back on the frightful details, like Vlad the Impaler, or today's Vlad the Putin.
I have to imagine that we have more time now for introspection, or at least the practice of awareness, but for most of us still life is not easy, and fealty is still not worth the compromise.
At least now we have more books we can read, and we can develop wisdom by being well read, and when we grow old, the wisdom of the ancients will be ours.
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thetruthsohelp
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Yeah I definitely agree we have it better than the ancients did in terms of leisure time and in the west, not being under kings and tyrants. But I do think the ancients were perhaps better at looking within, perhaps as you say because of circumstances, but perhaps they just had limited access to information and had to look more closely within for answers to their immediate and long term problems, be it psychological or spiritual. I do admit though that we might never know due to not being able to walk in those shoes. I dunno, I just think that we are slipping into some kind of idicoracy. Can you imagine taking someone from 2000 years ago and showing them our society what they would think? They would probably equally be in awe at our technology but disgusted by our lack of morality and introspection. I dunno man its a hard question for sure.
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redgreenvines
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the time machine produces unfamiliar impressions no matter which way you go, I surely do not want to go into the past even for a lark. I don't think the odors would be to my liking, and the toilet arrangements would probably lead me to an early demise.
I consider myself somewhat introspective.
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thetruthsohelp
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redgreenvines said: the time machine produces unfamiliar impressions no matter which way you go, I surely do not want to go into the past even for a lark. I don't think the odors would be to my liking, and the toilet arrangements would probably lead me to an early demise.
I consider myself somewhat introspective.
 
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syncro
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redgreenvines said: I would view your reference to teachings as a romantic enchantment, and that might explain why you don't want to be specific.
When you talk about me urinating on your books, this is not a thing I do or even think about or have done. I am not defensive about what I know or think, and when I question people or ask them to be specific, it is not an attack, not a put down, it is an effort to dispel the fog.
SO if you do have a "teaching" that you respect and care about, be up front - do not hide it because you think I want to piss on your source.
This is a forum about philosophy and psychology, clear honest thinking has a home here.
Enchantment is a wonderful thing, but fog is a very dull substitute, so do not be mysterious about what you mean by "teachings" if you want to use that word and not get lumped in with new age fluff heads who are more at home in the fog of the mysticism forum where you do not have to explain what you mean, you can just put out your attitude and done.
The essence is not specifiable, and that is why negation is pretty silly. Some Buddhists don't want to say there is a self, like denying the sky, but to not name it, like space, is respectable. They won't say it is nihilism.
To separate mind or self from thought objectification is what all of it does imo. And it can be considered the same as love or peace because that is the effect. That is why most any religion talking about love or peace, the sublime, being still to be there, is it as well.
How can anything not be it, including what you think is fog? It is the fog. What is fog? Bliss, the witness, the poem, the completeness in anything.
Reducing it to your terminology does not make it less fog necessarily for others but for you and those who jive with it. Then we 'think' we know, and what is more foggy than that?
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redgreenvines
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psychosis [Re: syncro]
#28275473 - 04/13/23 07:01 AM (9 months, 11 days ago) |
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so you are spreading the teachings of fog.
I am not negating teachings, I am doubting that you mean what you think you mean, which is the way of the fog.
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thetruthsohelp
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RJ Tubs 202 said: Do you blame the Hollywood elite (such as Oprah and David Letterman) for constantly encouraging Trump to run for president? Oprah has just as big of an ego as Donald. Maybe larger? I laugh when my friends get angry that I refuse to pronounce Trump the biggest of all egos. Yeah, OK. The prerequisite for demonization is fantasy.
Trump = Putin = Hitler = Satan
The problem with Trump is he is trying to make himself into the American Messiah, that he has the answers to all of Americas problems, which is....problematic., I did like some of Trumps policies such a energy independence and actually maintaining a functioning border, a non-interventionist foreign policy, but as always with these kind of narcissistic delusionaries, humility is lacking. Do I thin Hollywood is to blame for blowing smoke up his ass for years, probably. However he is the only politician I have seen in my lifetime to try and do what he actually campaigned on which means a lot. In any case this is not the politics forum so this is as far as I go here on this topic. Philosophically speaking thought Trump is a total pragmatist in the sense that he will do whatever it takes to fulfill his ego trip. Not a great trait in a leader in my estimation. I wont get into Biden's philosophy or psychology because it would be mean to do so since he has nothing noteworthy to to speak of, like whistling in the wind.
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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redgreenvines said: so you are spreading the teachings of fog.
I am not negating teachings, I am doubting that you mean what you think you mean, which is the way of the fog.
Peace is pretty hard to miss.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Mass Hysteria/Psychosis [Re: syncro]
#28276824 - 04/14/23 04:37 AM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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so is clarity
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