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connectedcosmos
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Seer and the seen 2
#28269570 - 04/09/23 06:15 AM (9 months, 15 days ago) |
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On Friday night I had a psychedelic experience with some mushrooms , and one of my experiences of thought happened when I was looking at the floor and was thinking about the tree falling in the woods does it make a sound if nobody is there type of thought, does the universe exist if no one is there to see it? Of course because we grew out of the universe like apples grow off trees
Though something occurred to me was that what I am perceiving was just as much me as me as me I am , that the seer is the seen , no difference whatsoever , what are we just going to exist in some empty black space with nothing to observe, in other words I realized that everything is perfect and meant to happen
it's just wild and mind-blowing to me that things need other things to arise and exist   
if that makes any sense , words are really complicated and I can barely say what I comprehended
Anywho so I googled seer and seen the next morning and found this cool read if anyone is interested , its about samhadi and seer vs seen etc, it's 46 slokas - I've read through some of it I need to finish here are the first few
https://www.scienceandnonduality.com/article/d%E1%B9%9Bg-d%E1%B9%9Bsya-viveka-wisdom-of-the-seer-and-the-seen
1. All objects are perceived by the senses. The senses are, in turn, perceived by the mind. The mind, in turn, is a movement that unfolds in Awareness. Awareness is not perceived by any other structure. It is its own perceiving.
2. The objects perceived by the senses appear to be constantly changing, while the senses, which perceive them, appear to be stable and unchanging.
3. On close inspection, however, the senses are realized to be constantly changing, while the mind, which perceives these changes, appears to be stable and unchanging.
4. Upon close inspection, however, the mind is seen to be constantly changing. The constantly changing mind can be seen due to the unchanging nature of Awareness.
5. Awareness is unchanging and ever-present, while all changing phenomena arise within unchanging awareness.
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 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
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Kickle
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Another view is that awareness is a mirror reflecting all that "stuff"
We see it because we are looking at a reflection. Otherwise we wouldn't see it, it would always be projected away.
But instead it's projected into a mirror and then bounced back. We see mind because mind is reflected back.
In this view awareness is just a mirror. Nothing to reflect, nothing reflected. Changing stuff, changing reflection. Like looking into a mirror and seeing your physical reflection and movement we know it's silly to think the reflection is "me" but it's just as silly to say the mirror is "me".
Just another viewpoint in which awareness is not unchanging either but depends on what it reflects
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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connectedcosmos
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Re: Seer and the seen [Re: Kickle]
#28269693 - 04/09/23 08:30 AM (9 months, 14 days ago) |
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I really like that , reminds me of the iceberg analogy of mind and focus point of the mirror , (subject-object)
Reflect also implies a bounce or back and forth (dualness) in which there is a "sent" and "received"
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 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
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Kickle
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Or cause/effect
Cause bounce effect Boing boing Effect bounce cause Boing boing
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Lithop
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Quote:
connectedcosmos said: On Friday night I had a psychedelic experience with some mushrooms

Quote:
connectedcosmos said: Though something occurred to me was that what I am perceiving was just as much me as me as me I am , that the seer is the seen , no difference whatsoever , what are we just going to exist in some empty black space with nothing to observe, in other words I realized that everything is perfect and meant to happen
This is an aspect of the psychedelic experience at large that I particularly enjoy, the plays on perspective and identification.
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connectedcosmos said: it's just wild and mind-blowing to me that things need other things to arise and exist
Still, try and get a bus driver to give you change off a £20 in the morning 
Interdependance or interconnectedness? (dependantcosmos doesn't ring the same )
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connectedcosmos said: Anywho so I googled seer and seen the next morning and found this cool read if anyone is interested , its about samhadi and seer vs seen etc, it's 46 slokas - I've read through some of it I need to finish here are the first few
https://www.scienceandnonduality.com/article/d%E1%B9%9Bg-d%E1%B9%9Bsya-viveka-wisdom-of-the-seer-and-the-seen
Nice link! My favourite of the slokas:
17. Misperception arises when the mind identifies with its own movement of thought and projects the belief that it is a separate self. The mind believes itself to be a perceiver who is separate from what it perceives. When the mind awakens to this misperception, the belief in being a separate self disappears. What was all along non-existent is re-cognized to be non-existent.
28. True nature is unconditioned, unchanging and unlimited by space, time, name or form. Uninterrupted inquiry upon Awareness, in which every object arises, reveals the unconditioned, unchanging and unlimited nature of Awareness.
34. Awareness is whole and without parts. Statements such as “Thou are That”, “That thou art”, “I am pure Awareness”, “This Self is pure Awareness”, “Pure Awareness is what everything is”, Pure Awareness is unknowable”, and “I am That unknowable”, reflect the truth of nondual Awareness. The notion of being separate, finite and limited is not found in either the descriptions or realization of essential nature.
43-44. The qualities of water such as wetness, fluidity, coldness, sweetness, wave and foam are inherent in water and are not separate from water except as conceptual names and forms. So also Being, Consciousness, Peace and Bliss, which are the natural characteristics of Awareness, appear to be inherent in the so-called separate selves that reside in the waking and dream states.
From the relative standpoint wetness, foam, waves, fluidity, coldness and sweetness appear as separate qualities of water; so, too, do I-selves and objects appear to be separate qualities of Awareness. From the standpoint of Awareness there are no waking or dream selves that are separate from Awareness. The characteristics of a separate self and a separate world are merely superimpositions upon undifferentiated Awareness.

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syncro
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Nice find. About the blackness, it can be an interim, though complete in itself as in the vajra dogen stuff, every thing is. There is looking upon it as in a panoramic screen, and if prepared one can try to go deeper, where it comes in, and is as if dense, substantial, excluding all, profound powerful bliss, the annihilating force. It comes in through the forehead and eyes, and then becomes the body. Then you are Vishnu's body as it were. Sometimes it comes to contact you unexpectedly as does the lighter prana.
The third eye center becoming the body happened earlier though in prana that was not the blackness as such. The absorptions can also lead to the visionary. I haven't been very good at that these days; lacking discipline is the norm, though I wonder if the vision has gone by, but these things can show in the wake and around sleep.
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connectedcosmos
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Re: Seer and the seen [Re: syncro] 1
#28271468 - 04/10/23 05:44 PM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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I've noticed in states of heavy contemplation I can easily get goosebumps
Also a quite intense feeling of love comes through ...
The rider is needed for the bus, no rider no point of busing, don't get me started on whether or not the bus exists!
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 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
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Lithop
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Quote:
syncro said: It comes in through the forehead and eyes, and then becomes the body. Then you are Vishnu's body as it were.
This makes me think of a practise I've been looking into a while, invoking the form of certain beings through a combination of mantras, mudras and meditation/visualisation. First you chant the mantra of dissolution in your meditation then move onto invocation of the "Damtsig Sempa" ("commitment being", an interim vessel where you are clearing yourself out for a 'placeholder' of the being, a process of self-identification) before fulling invoking the "Yeshe Sempa" ("Awareness being") who is said to be energetically equivilent to the being/deity you're calling on.
I suppose on a base level it's a way of refining a certain set of attributes in your 'self', balancing attributes, working with Prana, still. I see it as a localised/specific/lore-rich version of 'Middle Pillar' from Golden Dawn stuff.
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syncro said: Sometimes it comes to contact you unexpectedly as does the lighter prana.
 What I assume cosmos is referring to with the love coming through.
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syncro said: The absorptions can also lead to the visionary. I haven't been very good at that these days; lacking discipline is the norm, though I wonder if the vision has gone by, but these things can show in the wake and around sleep.
As much as I too, have love and awe for visionary experiences, it's funny how so many lessons can be transmitted through various forms of information/means beyond the sense perceptions, yet us monkies are often like " Yoooo, you wont believe what I SAW!" Strikes me as funny.
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connectedcosmos said: I've noticed in states of heavy contemplation I can easily get goosebumps
Wey, bit of a weird flex... I feel I got Goosebumps without much contemplation at all, maybe R.L Stines work just speaks to me  
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connectedcosmos said: Also a quite intense feeling of love comes through ...
For sure on the intense love feeling though, would you say you ever get a feeling similar to it in normal, waking life? I started getting these gratitude swells during certain meditation that used to happen at random in relation to emotional triggers after I started using LSD regularly again. Feels like a ball of light in the chest that swells up and can be present when I'm "doing the right thing" A 'fresh baked bread' feeling.
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connectedcosmos said: don't get me started on whether or not the bus exists! 
Mate, you sound JUST like the bus driver
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syncro
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Re: Seer and the seen [Re: Lithop]
#28272230 - 04/11/23 04:05 AM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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awesome info - loving this Yeshe Sempa vocab, Vajrasattva, jñānasattva, samādhisattva. It's interesting how similar this Vajrayana, Tibetan?, tantra, just kind of grabbing at terms, sound to the Hindu versions with which I have more familiarity.
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Lithop
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Re: Seer and the seen [Re: syncro] 1
#28272327 - 04/11/23 06:51 AM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said:

awesome info - loving this Yeshe Sempa vocab, Vajrasattva, jñānasattva, samādhisattva. It's interesting how similar this Vajrayana, Tibetan?, tantra, just kind of grabbing at terms, sound to the Hindu versions with which I have more familiarity.
Yep, very similar.
It's like, Tibetan Buddhism is the little brother looking up to how cool Hindu tradtions are and tries to look/act/talk like him. Big bro just lets him be and eventually Tibetan Buddhism got some of his own style, be we recognise big bros hand-me-downs
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Kickle
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Re: Seer and the seen [Re: Lithop] 3
#28272784 - 04/11/23 12:18 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Something like that 
Unless you believe the Chinese who like to claim nearly all Buddhist traditions originated in China, then you recognize Buddhism comes from India and has all the Indian cultural roots in terminology as a result.
Just like Christianity naturally has deep roots in what predates it - Judaism. And it wouldn't make sense to talk about Christianity without using Hebrew (translated over and over) terms. Some Christians may identify more with the old testament (Torah). Some may think it's outdated. Some may think the causal chain is what helps illuminate the new teachings.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Lithop
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Re: Seer and the seen [Re: Kickle] 3
#28273808 - 04/12/23 01:04 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: Something like that 
Unless you believe the Chinese who like to claim nearly all Buddhist traditions originated in China, then you recognize Buddhism comes from India and has all the Indian cultural roots in terminology as a result.
 Plain even to the layman when trying to google spiritual stuff 
Quote:
Kickle said: Just like Christianity naturally has deep roots in what predates it - Judaism. And it wouldn't make sense to talk about Christianity without using Hebrew (translated over and over) terms. Some Christians may identify more with the old testament (Torah). Some may think it's outdated.
Spot on assesment mate, and why there's something so rewarding about getting to the source as opposed to relying on/thinking there is only, the translation.
It's that simplicity, power and beauty that drew me to learning Tibetan script but I've fallen right off it lately...
Quote:
Kickle said: Some may think the causal chain is what helps illuminate the new teachings.
Sometimes also true! It's either this, or it ends up as a game of 'telephone' and millenia of fuckery ensues...
Yet again, I quote the Hermetica: (at least I'm not telling you to watch Soul)
My teachings will seems more obscure in times to come, when they are translated from our Egyptian mother tongue into that of the Greeks. Translation will distort much of their meaning.
Expressed in our native language, the teachings are clear and simple, for the very sound of and Egyptian word resonates with the thing signified by it.
All possible measures should be taken to prevent these holy secret being corrupted by translation into Greek, which is an arrogant, feeble, showy language, unable to contain the cogent force of my words. The Greek language lacks the power to convince, and Greek philosophy is nothing but noisy chatter. Our Egyptian speech is more than talk. Its utterences are replete with power.
^Hermes Trismegistus, the Hermetica.
Similar to why much of Western magic uses Qabalistic terminology (originating from the Torah) for vibrational words, their message is self contained within their very syllables. When it comes to English, I've long agreed with Hermes saying: "which is an arrogant, feeble, showy language,"
I feel our language is built with leisure, entertainment and self aggraindising at the very forefront. If TLDR were a language...
I would have argued once upon a time (lol) that storytelling is the reason for it but as you all probably know, many cultures tell parables in a less overt, yet more concise way.
This leads to an interesting thought on basic spiritual etymology/evolution of spiritual language around:
- The golden rule
- Similarities and differences between Hindu and Tibetan teachings
- The reasons (cultural, social, environmental) for the above
that I hope connectedcosmos (or anyone!) could (I'm sure I've seen you express interst in etymology bro) kick off some interesting conversation about.
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syncro
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Re: Seer and the seen [Re: Lithop] 2
#28273900 - 04/12/23 04:41 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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As a Sanskriteer I've been biased against English in those respects, and there is no doubt about the potency and purpose of language that differs greatly, but I have also learned that it can be done with ideas that can be received and used regardless. But I would not do without mantra.
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connectedcosmos
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Re: Seer and the seen [Re: Lithop] 3
#28273922 - 04/12/23 05:21 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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well... something I've noticed just off of learning some Spanish in the last year - even Spanish omits so many unnecessary words in a sentence, mainly based off context and something else I've noticed is some things just don't translate and or are lost in translation (unless that is of me and the coworkers fault)
English is such a ooky wordy language (atleast seemingly to me )
Most of my etymology knowledge spans English language - something I learned recently of Spanish (which is mainly Latin influenced where English is like maybe 20-30 percent Latin influenced[I'm bad with numbers]) was the word pee - orinar comes from - a Latin word urinor , meaning to dive in or take plunge which thats the kinda stuff that blows my mind - then you can also see the connection with our word urine
I think our word orange ultimately comes from sanskrit naranj which comes from like the fruit iirc Our Word candy also stems from sanksrit khanda meaning fragment
Words all need other words to explain them creating a vicious cycle the question remains of how it began
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 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
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syncro
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Om, I am the alpha and the omega.
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Kickle
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Re: Seer and the seen [Re: Lithop] 5
#28273992 - 04/12/23 06:38 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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If TLDR were a language...

I hosted a French exchange student and his favorite part of English was the way we can swear. Our swear words are recursive. You can string together as many as you want. Make a whole run on sentence just using curse words. He thought that was really something

I would have argued once upon a time (lol) that storytelling is the reason for it but as you all probably know, many cultures tell parables in a less overt, yet more concise way.
Funny. I agree but I also think English is inventive. I cannot think of any modern language that has shifted, evolved, and been as creative. Many other languages adopt English words for things they simply did not have words for. This could just be born from recent history in terms of 'Guns, Germs, and Steel'.
So on the one hand I agree it's not overly efficient. It's not refined and well cared for like a bonsai. There's little consideration to what's next, or any potential consequences. It's more like a Chimera that started breeding with a Centaur and it's offspring (the wondrous Chintaura) went and got it on with a Sphynx, and so on. It reminds me of unbridled absorption without restraint or understanding. Have to acknowledge the ugly that appears from such an approach, but there's opportunity in it as well. A tremendous freedom to look at a strange new creation with roots from nearly anywhere.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Lithop
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Re: Seer and the seen [Re: Kickle] 3
#28275302 - 04/13/23 02:22 AM (9 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: As a Sanskriteer I've been biased against English in those respects, and there is no doubt about the potency and purpose of language that differs greatly, but I have also learned that it can be done with ideas that can be received and used regardless. But I would not do without mantra.
What you say on furthering ideas that can be recieved and used regardless definitely shows that often the complexities of language are secondary to context, intent and expression.
Mantra is certainly powerful, not least (for me) because the constituent words aren't steeped in a lifetime of association and distractions from that.
Quote:
connectedcosmos said:
well... something I've noticed just off of learning some Spanish in the last year - even Spanish omits so many unnecessary words in a sentence, mainly based off context and something else I've noticed is some things just don't translate and or are lost in translation (unless that is of me and the coworkers fault)
Boffin emoji is funny as fuck 
The omission of words based on context, speaks both to efficiency in action and being able to be more creative, with less. I like the idea.
The lost in translation stuff is interesting to me too since I, and to be honest the people I associate with mostly, say a lot of weird shit. I wonder how much of it would get left out in translation making it appear EVEN MORE whack 
Quote:
connectedcosmos said: English is such a ooky wordy language (atleast seemingly to me )
Most of my etymology knowledge spans English language - something I learned recently of Spanish (which is mainly Latin influenced where English is like maybe 20-30 percent Latin influenced[I'm bad with numbers]) was the word pee - orinar comes from - a Latin word urinor , meaning to dive in or take plunge which thats the kinda stuff that blows my mind - then you can also see the connection with our word urine
Cool, what would you say is the weirdest/favourite you've learned in terms of how abstract the origin seems?
Take plunge 
Interesting, yeah blows my mind too- that shit's like reverse engineering words and is endlessly helpful when it comes to learning new words or trying to work out something with poor context.
Quote:
connectedcosmos said: I think our word orange ultimately comes from sanskrit naranj which comes from like the fruit iirc Our Word candy also stems from sanksrit khanda meaning fragment
Orange origins, cool info. Although naranj looks way cooler IMO.
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connectedcosmos said: Words all need other words to explain them creating a vicious cycle the question remains of how it began
As syncro already said:

Quote:
Kickle said:
I hosted a French exchange student and his favorite part of English was the way we can swear. Our swear words are recursive. You can string together as many as you want. Make a whole run on sentence just using curse words. He thought that was really something
It's a good point and weirdly makes me proud. In the UK, I particularly enjoy reappropriated swearing. Situations where normal swearing has become so passé that you gotta take it on yourself to recycle: "The bus driver wouldn't give change, the cunt."
Yawn, boooring.
"That cunting busdriver wouldn't break a 20!" DYNAMIC, EXCITING, FRESH!

Quote:
Kickle said:

Haha, good stuff.
Quote:
Kickle said: Funny. I agree but I also think English is inventive. I cannot think of any modern language that has shifted, evolved, and been as creative. Many other languages adopt English words for things they simply did not have words for. This could just be born from recent history in terms of 'Guns, Germs, and Steel'.
You're not wrong! Important to note, my beef with English and its "ooky wordiness" is when it's being used as a descriptive tool OUTSIDE of the expressive arts, poetry, lyrics, storytelling, casual conversation.
But it's also important to remember the original point of language to bind ideas into recognisable/repeatable chunks and some people can say a hundred words without getting to the POINT of what they're tryna say.
Yes, there's a degree of bloat to English but as you say it's creative, it's progressive in a lot of ways and it's constantly blurring the lines between orthodox language, slang etc.
I'll look for a PDF of that "Guns, Germs and Steel", it sounds cool!
Quote:
Kickle said: So on the one hand I agree it's not overly efficient. It's not refined and well cared for like a bonsai. There's little consideration to what's next, or any potential consequences. It's more like a Chimera that started breeding with a Centaur and it's offspring (the wondrous Chintaura) went and got it on with a Sphynx, and so on. It reminds me of unbridled absorption without restraint or understanding. Have to acknowledge the ugly that appears from such an approach, but there's opportunity in it as well. A tremendous freedom to look at a strange new creation with roots from nearly anywhere.
The bonsai...
 Fantastic analogy! There's room in the world for untrained, mighty Oaks as well as finely clipped Bonsai.
The chimera thing too, TBH.
Despite my focus on the "ugly" here, I have to admit that language has long been a valuable ally in my life. There are few feelings that match that of being deep in an EPIC conversation and even YOU don't really know what you're gonna say next, it's like fucking channeling and something awesome (or dogshit) just comes from somewhere to keep the chat alive.

Sorry to end an already long post with a big ass wall of text, but all this (as well as making me want to watch the movie "Arrival") reminded me of my love for nonsense poetry as a child, Spike Milligan and all that, which reminded me of this classic:
Ladies and Gentlemen, skinny and stout, I’ll tell you a tale I know nothing about; The Admission is free, so pay at the door, Now pull up a chair and sit on the floor.
One fine day in the middle of the night, Two dead boys got up to fight; Back to back they faced each other, Drew their swords and shot each other.
A blind man came to watch fair play, A mute man came to shout “Horray!” A deaf policeman heard the noise and Came to stop those two dead boys.
He lived on the corner in the middle of the block, In a two-story house on a vacant lot; A man with no legs came walking by, and kicked the lawman in his thigh.
He crashed through a wall without making a sound, into a dry creek bed and suddenly drowned; The long black hearse came to cart him away, But he ran for his life and is still gone today.
I watched from the corner of the big round table, The only eyewitness to facts of my fable; But if you doubt my lies are true, Just ask the blind man, he saw it too.
The fucking GLEE that would give me as a kid, I see hints that I was always into paradoxical and trippy shit.
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syncro
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Re: Seer and the seen [Re: Lithop] 1
#28275426 - 04/13/23 05:56 AM (9 months, 11 days ago) |
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Another version of The Story of the Three Non-existent Princes. from the Maharamayana
Once upon a time, in a city which did not exist, there lived three princes who were brave and happy. Two of them were unborn, and the third had not yet been conceived...
posted it here earlier
Edited by syncro (04/14/23 06:18 AM)
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herbstation
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Re: Seer and the seen [Re: syncro] 3
#28276208 - 04/13/23 05:16 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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The evolution from the nature of thought to the nature of language in this thread was interesting.
Here's some language that represents conscious thought: in Rasta culture some words are intentionally changed to represent their truer meaning. For example an under-standing becomes an over-standing because you shouldn't put yourself under anything. I think some of the concepts don't carry well over cultures but some of them carry very well.
One of the very profound changes I agree with that they make is when they address a group.
You and I becomes I and I Which is synonymous for we I and I Means "God" and is a raw linguistic representation of non-dualism (I am my body but I am also the world). So I and I are united in existence, and that describes everything. I like that.
As a child I learned as many words as possible to be articulate, til I realized the vocabulary and context of your listener are much more important. I have been speaking more simply but I feel more emotionally effective when I use a handful of meaningful words. Perhaps I'm starting to trim my language like your metaphorical bonsai.
Cheers
-------------------- Expanding my mind until I can join the collective
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Lithop
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Quote:
syncro said: Another version of the The Story of the Three Non-existent Princes. from the Maharamayana
Once upon a time, in a city which did not exist, there lived three princes who were brave and happy. Two of them were unborn, and the third had not yet been conceived...
posted it here earlier
Liked that one syncro, cheers!
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herbstation said: The evolution from the nature of thought to the nature of language in this thread was interesting.
Here's some language that represents conscious thought: in Rasta culture some words are intentionally changed to represent their truer meaning. For example an under-standing becomes an over-standing because you shouldn't put yourself under anything. I think some of the concepts don't carry well over cultures but some of them carry very well.
Yeah the over-standing doesn't seem legit for me haha, feels like when Crips won't say the letter B or something
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herbstation said: One of the very profound changes I agree with that they make is when they address a group.
You and I becomes I and I Which is synonymous for we I and I Means "God" and is a raw linguistic representation of non-dualism (I am my body but I am also the world). So I and I are united in existence, and that describes everything. I like that.
THIS on the other hand, is fucking supreme always dug it.
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herbstation said: As a child I learned as many words as possible to be articulate, til I realized the vocabulary and context of your listener are much more important.
Likewise, it's like reading the room eh? You'll know that as a DJ. May as well make people as comfortable as possible by approaching them on their terms.
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herbstation said: I have been speaking more simply but I feel more emotionally effective when I use a handful of meaningful words.
Spot on. When you're using bulky/excessive language only for your sense of ego, it shows to others I reckon and reeks. The goal of conversation, unless otherwise agreed, should be that of direct conveying of the message at hand, IMO.
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herbstation said: Perhaps I'm starting to trim my language like your metaphorical bonsai.

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