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The Ecstatic
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China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) 3
#28268432 - 04/08/23 09:44 AM (9 months, 15 days ago) |
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China brokers a normalization of relations between Saudi and Iran, including a pledge to end the war in Yemen, the world’s worst humanitarian crisis.
Oman also played a tremendous role in negotiating a peace between the Saudis and the Houthi rebels.
https://www.politico.eu/article/china-broker-deal-iran-saudi-arabia-diplomatic-relations-sheikh-nimr-al-nimr-missile-attacks/amp/
What do we think about this gross imperialistic behavior by China? Are they trying to save these peoples’ lives as a way to stock up those concentration camps in Xianjang? Who are they to say whether this genocide should end? Last I checked it was called the Arabian Peninsula not the Beijing Peninsula. This is just a taste of what horrors await the people of Taiwan if we don’t keep ramping up our military exports to the island.
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ballsalsa
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#28268449 - 04/08/23 10:12 AM (9 months, 15 days ago) |
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If the U.S. is smart we won't overtly try to upend the peace or anything. Wouldn't be surprised to see some kind of CIA tricks ala 1953 Iran, though.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28268480 - 04/08/23 10:35 AM (9 months, 15 days ago) |
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I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to imply with this thread. Is it that the Chinese/authoritarian state model is preferable? Is it that the Chinese state hasn't committed atrocities? Be explicit in your beliefs, please.
States can do good; but let's not pretend these acts come from a place of compassion or altruism - any state vying for global/regional dominance necessarily views our world through a Machiavellian zero-sum lens.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#28268704 - 04/08/23 02:11 PM (9 months, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: If the U.S. is smart we won't overtly try to upend the peace or anything. Wouldn't be surprised to see some kind of CIA tricks ala 1953 Iran, though.
I’m not sure we have the leverage to fuck up this peace. Iran wouldn’t piss on us if we were on fire and Saudi has kept us at arm’s length for some time.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to imply with this thread. Is it that the Chinese/authoritarian state model is preferable? Is it that the Chinese state hasn't committed atrocities? Be explicit in your beliefs, please.
States can do good; but let's not pretend these acts come from a place of compassion or altruism - any state vying for global/regional dominance necessarily views our world through a Machiavellian zero-sum lens.
I’m implying that Western states and their media will have a difficult time painting this most recent development of a more pronounced Chinese foreign policy as evil or authoritarian. I’m sure there will be an Op Ed next week with a narrative nearly as ridiculous as the satirical ones I’ve offered.
I don’t think the Chinese state model has much to do with the efficacy of this brokered peace, it’s mostly due to the fact that America’s vassal states can see which way the wind is blowing and are beginning to act accordingly.
I think there’s a debate to be had about the Chinese model, a bastardized socialism, being preferable to what we have here, a bastardized neoliberalism, but I think there shouldn’t be much dispute that a more multipolar world (that is, a reality in which US power is diminished and Chinese/Indian/Brazilian/Russian power grows) is a net benefit for the world.
And I don’t doubt China brokered this peace through the realpolitik lens, but the explicit project of the Chinese communists isn’t something that’s easily explained. Since Mao there’s been a delicate balancing act between liberal reforms and the idea that said reforms are necessary to advance the cause of socialism. Brokering a peace in Yemen is one of those things that’s an objective good, while also representing a decline in US power. Had China, for example, started backing the Houthis in order to establish some BRICS-adjacent beachhead on the Arabian peninsula, it would be more difficult to justify those means.
I know we’ve had this discussion before about whether the ends justify the means and what degree of coercion and violence might be acceptable to reach that goal, but with China it’s always a guessing game of whether they’re actually committed to socialism.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#28269038 - 04/08/23 06:53 PM (9 months, 15 days ago) |
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Okay, that makes things clearer. I'm guessing it's satire of American news; which I just don't watch enough of to make that connection.
Shouldn't be too difficult to keep the narrative going, though. As simple as pointing out some future economic benefit for the Chinese state, and just lean into the 'otherness' to talk about how Chinese motivations are sinister where American motivations are virtuous. Propaganda doesn't need to change minds - reinforcing already existing beliefs is valuable on its own.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom] 1
#28269050 - 04/08/23 07:01 PM (9 months, 15 days ago) |
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Yeah I’m under no impression that Americans will warm to China. Their ascent mirrors our demise. Every good thing they do will be bad even if it is virtuous, maybe especially if it’s virtuous.
The running joke on social media, when it comes to satirizing domestic coverage of China, centers around the phrase “but at what cost?” Because the thesis of almost every headline regarding China is essentially “sure this looks good, but if we dig deeper we’ll see why it isn’t.”
But that’s only reserved for the beltway lib and Foreign Policy reading neocons, the educated folks. Jordan Peterson is sharing stories from the Epoch Times (a rag run by Falun Gong) about how China is kidnapping hundreds of thousands of people and harvesting their organs, so we can skin the cat that way too.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: The Ecstatic] 2
#28269585 - 04/09/23 06:39 AM (9 months, 14 days ago) |
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We should wait a bit to see if peace is achieved. It would be great for Yemen, and if it works, I don't care who brokered it.
China's international influence will be increasing in many regions. America won't like it, but our record of good vs evil in the less developed countries is what it is.
Jordan Peterson got caught posting some bizarre picture of men strapped down and being "milked" (don't ask me) and said it was some atrocity China was engaging in. The picture actually came from a Canadian porn fetish site.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Brian Jones]
#28269591 - 04/09/23 06:43 AM (9 months, 14 days ago) |
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-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Brian Jones]
#28269684 - 04/09/23 08:13 AM (9 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said: We should wait a bit to see if peace is achieved. It would be great for Yemen, and if it works, I don't care who brokered it.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kickle]
#28269700 - 04/09/23 08:41 AM (9 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said: Sorry it was from UK, not Canada. https://www.yahoo.com/news/jordan-peterson-downfall-boring-become-215943765.html
Yeah he’s a huge dumbass. Point I was making is that we don’t need some well-thought out disinformation campaign against China when even public intellectuals like JBP are retweeting sperm-jacking videos as evidence of China’s evil ways.
Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
Brian Jones said: We should wait a bit to see if peace is achieved. It would be great for Yemen, and if it works, I don't care who brokered it.
I’m a bit skeptical as well. This could just be posturing for Saudi to get a more advantageous position with the US.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28269852 - 04/09/23 11:42 AM (9 months, 14 days ago) |
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Wheels within wheels and the current cut in oil production is definitely a bargaining chip set to call.
I def agree with Brian and hope there is peace but history and the Middle East with any reference to said peace is short-lived. Still alot of Saudi/ Iran animosity that continues to foment for years.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28269971 - 04/09/23 01:10 PM (9 months, 14 days ago) |
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It would probably be a net gain in human rights for the middle east, the middle east becomes their headache, and if we develop our renewables infrastructure to become independent of Saudi oil, then I see this as absolute wins across the board.
Unfortunately, I don't believe the last one will take place. Which means that this will directly lead to the decline of the US.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28270002 - 04/09/23 01:38 PM (9 months, 14 days ago) |
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20 years of US middle east policy are more or less in the process of collapsing. This is the type of shit that we murdered a million Iraqis to try and prevent.
It's a great thing to watch. The Saudis are also pushing for Assad to be reintroduced to the Arab League, turning 10+ years of US support for "moderate Al-Qaeda" into a gigantic wasted effort 
All that needs to happen now is for the US military to withdraw remaining forces from Iraq & Syria and the nightmare will almost be over.
As for Israel, they are going to become increasingly isolated and their political situation increasingly untenable. If they lash out with military force like a bunch of impotent babies, they will be attacked from all sides. Everybody hates them.
Combine this with the fact that the BRICS nations are building an independent, alternative sanctions-proof economy and the fact that the US Dollar is being increasingly abandoned, and we are basically witnessing the birth of the multi-polar world in slow motion. These are all key events that create the foundation for this new world.
The only question is, what will our "leaders" do now? Things are looking pretty desperate for them...
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: chopstick]
#28270306 - 04/09/23 06:32 PM (9 months, 14 days ago) |
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Definitely many failed policies in the Middle East with the USA at the helm, however, to rest the majority of Middle East issues squarely at the feet of the US is not sound.
There is plenty of blame to go around: the psudeo theocratic governments, blood and religious feuds, lack of civil rights of the populace, etc.
The dollar? It's was at its highest value in more than 20 years, two quarters ago. With each FED interest Rate hike, the demand for the dollar for international investors has increased significantly.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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The Ecstatic
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: chopstick]
#28270374 - 04/09/23 07:33 PM (9 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
chopstick said: 20 years of US middle east policy are more or less in the process of collapsing. This is the type of shit that we murdered a million Iraqis to try and prevent.
It's a great thing to watch. The Saudis are also pushing for Assad to be reintroduced to the Arab League, turning 10+ years of US support for "moderate Al-Qaeda" into a gigantic wasted effort 
All that needs to happen now is for the US military to withdraw remaining forces from Iraq & Syria and the nightmare will almost be over.
As for Israel, they are going to become increasingly isolated and their political situation increasingly untenable. If they lash out with military force like a bunch of impotent babies, they will be attacked from all sides. Everybody hates them.
Combine this with the fact that the BRICS nations are building an independent, alternative sanctions-proof economy and the fact that the US Dollar is being increasingly abandoned, and we are basically witnessing the birth of the multi-polar world in slow motion. These are all key events that create the foundation for this new world.
The only question is, what will our "leaders" do now? Things are looking pretty desperate for them...
Wondering what our leaders do now is something I’d probably base on what they’ve historically done when they feel their power slip ever so slightly.
And that’s horrifying.
Would be nice if we slowly relinquished the reins like Great Britain did.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28270554 - 04/09/23 11:15 PM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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Yeah, I don't think the people living in Great Britain outside of London are having a great time right now. And it is spreading.
Soon, it will spread to the US. The future that you await gleefully of authoritarian control and empty shelves.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
#28270795 - 04/10/23 07:38 AM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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Fortunately, America has an economy based on more than laundering mob money and exporting pedophilia.
Either way, this authoritarianism and empty shelves you fear has existed for some time in most of the world. Our lavish and wasteful lifestyles in the West have decimated the planet, probably irreparably.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28270960 - 04/10/23 10:34 AM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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I said outside of London. London is doing fine, it's the rest of the country that can't afford both food and heat. This is actually a clear warning signal to rural accelerationists: those urban elites you hate so much will not be the first to suffer during the collapse.
And yes, my point is that the authoritarianism and empty shelves are coming here, to affect me. I do not like things that negatively affect me, doubly so when there is no clear long-term benefit. Morality aside, US hegemony does provide me my lavish lifestyle, and I would like to maintain it.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos] 1
#28271027 - 04/10/23 11:41 AM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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Morality aside, Adolf Hitler was a good leader.
No shit the West benefits at the expense of everyone else. The ease with which we brush aside the moral implications of a global exploitation regime just goes to show what I alluded to in my response to chop: we’ll do whatever we want to maintain that situation, and people will cheer for it.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#28271122 - 04/10/23 12:59 PM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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Morality aside, Hitler was a shit leader. That's why he had to come up with scapegoats for his failures.
Until the global consensus on the permissiveness of economic exploitation comes to an end, people will be economically exploited for the benefit of others. Until this status quo changes, I am much happier at the top of the pyramid than I am being exploited. Morality is a luxury, and neither of us will gain anything by working 72 hour weeks for shit pay making disposable trinkets for the Chinese middle class.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
#28271469 - 04/10/23 05:44 PM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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Depending on circumstances, the moral choice may be a harder one; but morality isn't a luxury, considering it's accessible to anyone at anytime. Isn't your attitude largely responsible for perpetuating the status quo? What's the functional difference between your argument when applied to "working 72 hour weeks for shit pay making disposable trinkets", or to chattel slavery?
Personally, I'm much happier neither being exploited nor exploiting others. The tops of mountains have often proven to be inhospitable environments in my experience.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#28271599 - 04/10/23 06:38 PM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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Your moral choice is the same as mine: acceptance.
You accept the status quo from the top of a mountain, and I accept the status quo from downtown.
Sure, we both do our thing, you organize...something, I don't mean to be flippant, I simply do not know that well; I discuss labor law and worker's right a little bit too loudly in the break room. You probably see your work as more important, and perhaps it is.
But I suspect that both of us could be doing a lot more to further the, uh, "moral" choice. And I suspect that both of us still participate in the exploitation to a degree that we may not be entirely comfortable with, but have come to accept.
Unfortunately, this is reflected in my attitude, which is decidedly compromising. As much as ideology is nice, I do live in the real world. And in the real world, I would prefer to be a subject of the modern hegemonic US than a subject of both the modern hegemonic Chinese or the prophesied future dominant hegemonic Chinese.
I think that we can both agree that neither the US nor the Chinese are in any way congruent with our goals, and I think that we can both agree that living in the US/western world is preferable to living in China, the only other reasonable global power for the next decade or two. We'll see about India, and maybe Nigeria further down the line. India I do not have high hopes, but Nigeria might bring some fresh new ideas.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
#28271674 - 04/10/23 07:12 PM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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This whole thing is obviously rooted deeply in sunni vs Shia Islam fed by Iran. I don't believe for a second these people are going to just give up the fight. Until Yemen and Iran stop attacking people we shouldn't expect peace it's as simple as that. Thinking China brokered any sort of deal is absolutely hogwash what did they "broker" a shakey opening of diplomatic relations? This isn't a humanitarian crisis its a fucking war
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos] 1
#28271725 - 04/10/23 07:29 PM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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You would be wrong to say we both choose acceptance.
It's not about suggesting I don't participate in this system of global exploitation, nor is it about suggesting that the stuff I do is more important than what you do - it really can be boiled down to your stated willingness to accept recognized injustice that benefits you.
We both recognize the injustices of capitalism; but where you come to accept your beneficial place in the hierarchy of exploitation, I can't. For myself the question isn't 'does this benefit me?', it's more along the lines of 'do I have alternatives?' - and actually taking them when I do.
Have you ever read Civil Disobedience, by Henry David Thoreau?
Quote:
There are thousands who are in opinion opposed to slavery and to the war, who yet in effect do nothing to put an end to them; who, esteeming themselves children of Washington and Franklin, sit down with their hands in their pockets, and say that they know not what to do, and do nothing; who even postpone the question of freedom to the question of free trade, and quietly read the prices-current along with the latest advices from Mexico, after dinner, and, it may be, fall asleep over them both. What is the price-current of an honest man and patriot today? They hesitate, and they regret, and sometimes they petition; but they do nothing in earnest and with effect. They will wait, well disposed, for others to remedy the evil, that they may no longer have it to regret. At most, they give only a cheap vote, and a feeble countenance and God-speed, to the right, as it goes by them. There are nine hundred and ninety-nine patrons of virtue to one virtuous man. But it is easier to deal with the real possessor of a thing than with the temporary guardian of it.
[...]
It is not a man's duty, as a matter of course, to devote himself to the eradication of any, even the most enormous, wrong; he may still properly have other concerns to engage him; but it is his duty, at least, to wash his hands of it, and, if he gives it no thought longer, not to give it practically his support. If I devote myself to other pursuits and contemplations, I must first see, at least, that I do not pursue them sitting upon another man's shoulders. I must get off him first, that he may pursue his contemplations too.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#28271752 - 04/10/23 07:46 PM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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It's good in principle but difficult in practice for many, myself included. I don't love slave-mined cobalt, etc. yet here I am, typing away on my phone. Even if I had the resources and technical ability to build a phone myself from self gathered raw materials, I almost certainly wouldn't. I'd feel guilty about it but I would still just take the free phone that comes with signing up for service.
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#28271757 - 04/10/23 07:47 PM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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None of that nonsense has anything to do with this post. Is America solely to blame for the the progressive and natural evolution of technology? Are they to blame for inherent human nature to things like greed and gluttony? Has china ever been proven to be anything but far from any better?
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#28271791 - 04/10/23 08:13 PM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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For sure it's difficult - and until that mass societal change finally arrives, impractical on occasion. I don't judge people for not living hardcore enough. Does that make acceptance necessary? We can't change everything, but we can change some things - accepting the status quo seems like a sure fire way to never discover the difference.
PS: a temporary solution to necessary consumption, is remove your participation to a degree by taking advantage of our systems waste. Lots of perfectly usable phones end up in landfills - purchasing used is always an option.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#28272077 - 04/10/23 11:07 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: We both recognize the injustices of capitalism; but where you come to accept your beneficial place in the hierarchy of exploitation, I can't. For myself the question isn't 'does this benefit me?', it's more along the lines of 'do I have alternatives?' - and actually taking them when I do.
Hmm. Well, I guess in this case, I see no viable alternatives to the current system that I can wholeheartedly support. I accept my place in the sense that this is the reality in which I live and I am cognizant of that. "Woke", one might say. I do not necessarily accept this reality as something that should be supported. Which is why I choose not to have kids.
I would, however, like to remain at or near the top of the current system. Hence my preference for US geopolitical dominance.
At the very least, this gives me the freedom to control my consumption. Or, I guess to put it in your words, it provides me alternative options in mundane, everyday decisions. After all, getting a used phone is a several hundred dollar investment, while a predatory phone plan loan is monthly.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos] 1
#28272105 - 04/10/23 11:53 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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It's not necessarily grand alternatives to the entire capitalist system that I'm referring to here. Evaluating my behaviours and choices; seeing how the power dynamics play out; and considering alternative means of living my life with less exploitation - that's all.
I've done lots of wandering over the years and one of the most common things I hear from people is that they wish they could be doing something similar, but it's just not possible - except in almost every instance, they've never actually tried. It's that acceptance of current circumstances as inevitable turned self-fulfilling prophecy that always strikes me the wrong way.
Even if it doesn't lead to some radical shift in your day-to-day circumstances, I think there's a lot of value in the foundation of thoughts that we create for ourselves.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#28272508 - 04/11/23 09:17 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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ballsalsa said: It's good in principle but difficult in practice for many, myself included. I don't love slave-mined cobalt, etc. yet here I am, typing away on my phone. Even if I had the resources and technical ability to build a phone myself from self gathered raw materials, I almost certainly wouldn't. I'd feel guilty about it but I would still just take the free phone that comes with signing up for service.
Exactly.
I think, at the very least, we can feel guilty about it.
“I enjoy my standard of living and don’t want it to decline” is basically a blanket justification for any number of horrors.
And yeah, it’s human nature to want to be comfortable, but our lifestyle is literally destroying the planet. Even parasites are smart enough to not kill their host.
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28272573 - 04/11/23 09:54 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Again what does this have to do with the situation in the middle east? Do you really believe that only the west is guilty of excess and places like China and Iran are perfect in that regard? If China really is so innocent why are the supplying like 85% of the world's trash for money and then letting wealthy folks use that money to do some incredibly ostentatious things while poor folks have an incredibly low quality of life?
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
#28272574 - 04/11/23 09:56 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
CHeifM4sterDiezL said: Again what does this have to do with the situation in the middle east? Do you really believe that only the west is guilty of excess and places like China and Iran are perfect in that regard? If China really is so innocent why are the supplying like 85% of the world's trash for money and then letting wealthy folks use that money to do some incredibly ostentatious things while poor folks have an incredibly low quality of life?
Yes China and Iran are perfect.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#28272617 - 04/11/23 10:21 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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shivas.wisdom said: It's not necessarily grand alternatives to the entire capitalist system that I'm referring to here. Evaluating my behaviours and choices; seeing how the power dynamics play out; and considering alternative means of living my life with less exploitation - that's all.
I've done lots of wandering over the years and one of the most common things I hear from people is that they wish they could be doing something similar, but it's just not possible - except in almost every instance, they've never actually tried. It's that acceptance of current circumstances as inevitable turned self-fulfilling prophecy that always strikes me the wrong way.
Even if it doesn't lead to some radical shift in your day-to-day circumstances, I think there's a lot of value in the foundation of thoughts that we create for ourselves.
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
ballsalsa said: It's good in principle but difficult in practice for many, myself included. I don't love slave-mined cobalt, etc. yet here I am, typing away on my phone. Even if I had the resources and technical ability to build a phone myself from self gathered raw materials, I almost certainly wouldn't. I'd feel guilty about it but I would still just take the free phone that comes with signing up for service.
Exactly.
I think, at the very least, we can feel guilty about it.
“I enjoy my standard of living and don’t want it to decline” is basically a blanket justification for any number of horrors.
And yeah, it’s human nature to want to be comfortable, but our lifestyle is literally destroying the planet. Even parasites are smart enough to not kill their host.
So the concern is not due to my actions, or the decisions that lead to my actions. The primary concern in this situation is that I do not display the proper level of guilt and contrition while doing so, in your mind?
How many Hail Marxs and Acts of Chavez must I say in penance?
Edited by Kryptos (04/11/23 10:29 AM)
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
#28272660 - 04/11/23 10:42 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Those weren't my words - I don't see much point in just sitting in feelings of guilt not followed by action. Makes political activity into a dreary thing of duty.
I explicitly mention choices and behaviours - aka decisions and actions - but I'm not going to judge the unknown circumstances of your life with the absolute assessment that 'you can and must make radical changes in your day-to-day circumstances'. Regardless of personal circumstances, I believe blithe acceptance of beneficial injustice is more responsible for its perpetuation than outright malice, and never necessary - so I challenge it when encountered.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#28272671 - 04/11/23 10:48 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Then we go back to what you mean by "accept". I see two different meanings: enthusiastic consent and recognition of reality.
I accept the situation in the sense that I am not retreating to delusion in the face of an uncomfortable reality.
You seem to equate this with my enthusiastic consent for the uncomfortable reality in question.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
#28272682 - 04/11/23 10:59 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Enthusiastic consent? No. Recognition of reality? Not that either.
I'm talking about 'acceptance of current circumstances as inevitable turned self-fulfilling prophecy'. Saying "until this status quo changes, I am much happier at the top of the pyramid than I am being exploited" isn't a nondeluded recognition of your external reality; it's recognition of your personal beliefs, without recognition of the role such attitudes have in perpetuating the status quo.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#28272704 - 04/11/23 11:19 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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You seem to ascribe a secondary meaning that I don't believe is a logical conclusion of the initial acceptance.
I do not think the capitalist system is inevitable, nor do I seek to uphold the status quo past that which I require to live.
What would the ideal solution be, then, in your mind? Opting out is only achieved through suicide. You're gonna be part of the system. Where do you see yourself?
Because from what I can tell, living at the top of a mountain in the western world tells me you're part of that top few percent that not only live in the western world, but can also afford land. That's pretty high up the pyramid too.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
#28272749 - 04/11/23 11:46 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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You should read that paragraph again: "Personally, I'm much happier neither being exploited nor exploiting others. The tops of mountains have often proven to be inhospitable environments in my experience." It was in reference to your statement "I am much happier at the top of the pyramid than I am being exploited," and was intended to suggest that things don't necessarily break down into a dichotomy of good-at-the-top and bad-at-the-bottom.
I've already stated my suggestion: Evaluating my behaviours and choices; seeing how the power dynamics play out; and considering alternative means of living my life with less exploitation - that's all.
To apply that to you right now - you say you don't seek to uphold the status quo past that which you require to live, can you honestly say that you consider power dynamics in your daily choices; can you say that being on the top of a global system of exploitation is necessary to your life?
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
#28272753 - 04/11/23 11:50 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
So the concern is not due to my actions, or the decisions that lead to my actions. The primary concern in this situation is that I do not display the proper level of guilt and contrition while doing so, in your mind?
How many Hail Marxs and Acts of Chavez must I say in penance?
Short of explicit left wing terrorism, I don’t think any single person can meaningfully oppose this system, not right now.
The point I’m making is that this paradigm of “what’s good for America is good for me” is worse than useless, it’s actively harmful.
We have enough “get along to go along” rubes in this country. If you’re gonna argue for empire because it makes your life better then you might as well go full grifter and launch your own Daily Wire and start selling brain pills, you’ll be much more comfortable that way.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: The Ecstatic] 2
#28273235 - 04/11/23 05:21 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: You should read that paragraph again: "Personally, I'm much happier neither being exploited nor exploiting others. The tops of mountains have often proven to be inhospitable environments in my experience." It was in reference to your statement "I am much happier at the top of the pyramid than I am being exploited," and was intended to suggest that things don't necessarily break down into a dichotomy of good-at-the-top and bad-at-the-bottom.
No, they do not. There are certainly people that find pleasure in letting others make decisions for them. I am not one of those people. Life is a sum of decisions and I intend to live mine to the fullest.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: I've already stated my suggestion: Evaluating my behaviours and choices; seeing how the power dynamics play out; and considering alternative means of living my life with less exploitation - that's all.
To apply that to you right now - you say you don't seek to uphold the status quo past that which you require to live, can you honestly say that you consider power dynamics in your daily choices
I don't know if I can answer that question, because I do not know if I am fully considering every possible aspect of power dynamics in my daily life. If we are to ignore such semantic and vaguely counter-dunning-krueger-esque non-answers, then I think my participation in this conversation alone tells you that I am, in fact, aware of power dynamics in my daily choices, and I do at the very least consider them. You'll have to take my word that I usually consider them from the angle of minimizing my complicity in exploitation. I admit that I have explicitly used my inherent advantage within the current power structure to my benefit during my few interactions with law enforcement. I also, obviously, receive implicit benefits from my position in the power structure, some of which I may not even recognize, simply considering them to be "normal".
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: can you say that being on the top of a global system of exploitation is necessary to your life?
This is a loaded question. In the sense of this conversation, where the only other realistic option is to be at the bottom of the global system of exploitation, see:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Short of explicit left wing terrorism, I don’t think any single person can meaningfully oppose this system, not right now.
Sure.
In the sense of must the global system of exploitation exist? No, of course not. But it does, and I am more likely to successfully oppose the system of global exploitation from the source of the demand, not the supply of expendable labor. If, in the meantime, I get to generate knowledge for humanity, that has inherent value.
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: The point I’m making is that this paradigm of “what’s good for America is good for me” is worse than useless, it’s actively harmful.
That's not my paradigm at al. What's good for me is good for me. I don't particularly care about America, it just happens to be the global power most closely aligned with my interests. As much as I would love to live in a communalist utopia with locally communalized mutualist property rights and a single central state that exists for the sole purpose of redistributing wealth to the point at which every person's basic needs are met if they are unable to find a place in the confederation of communities (which will happen), that utopian society does not currently exist. My options are (a) a US-dominated earth, (b) a multipolar earth, and (c) a Chinese-dominated earth. I guess also (d) I don't want to set the wooorld ooon fiiireee. Of those three reasonable options for the near future, I pick option (a). Mostly because option (c) sounds a lot like (a), except this conversation would be illegal. and because (b) sounds like a massive wave of nationalism that nobody, and I mean absolutely nobody, under the age of 90 has experienced in their lifetime. Literally McCarthy shit. (d) I refer to nuclear war, but the only realistic way for the common man to opt out of having to live in this world is suicide. Functionally the same outcome for me, as far as I'm concerned.
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: We have enough “get along to go along” rubes in this country. If you’re gonna argue for empire because it makes your life better then you might as well go full grifter and launch your own Daily Wire and start selling brain pills, you’ll be much more comfortable that way.
There are certainly people that find pleasure in letting others make decisions for them. I am not one of those people.
Quote:
How many Hail Marxs and Acts of Chavez must I say in penance?
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
#28273406 - 04/11/23 06:48 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Do you actually believe the United States is the country that best represents your values, or is it that America gave you your values? You don’t really see the exceptionalism on either side anymore. Liberals are ashamed of what we were and conservatives are ashamed of what we’ve become, I don’t think anyone actually believes in the nation anymore.
2 Marx, 3 Chavez
I appreciate the response, really. But I’m not living where I am because I’ve made a logical choice and decided deep red Florida best represents my values. I’m here because this is where my family and friends are, and where I’ve lived for a majority of my life. I’d be much more ideologically aligned with the populous of a city like Seattle or Portland but I’d be forgoing all the comforts that friends and family bring, even taking into account the fact that my daughter and wife’s bodily autonomy is under threat by the state government. I just think it has so much more to do with social and economic circumstance than it does ideological preference.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28274087 - 04/12/23 07:58 AM (9 months, 11 days ago) |
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Of the options, which again appear to be either the US, China, or Both, the US most closely aligns with my values. Unfortunately, those are the only realistic options for the apparent future. No exceptionalism needed, only uncomfortable reality.
If I had to pick countries in general, I'd say one of the EU nations. France or Germany. Not sure which I'd pick long term.
Where I live is dictated largely by economics. I go where the job goes. I have no connection to any one place past that--friends, family, etc. have internet.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
#28274280 - 04/12/23 11:06 AM (9 months, 11 days ago) |
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Yeah, exactly. You live where you live because that’s where you were born and that’s where you have the means to earn a living.
Nature, nurture.
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Kryptos
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28274322 - 04/12/23 11:45 AM (9 months, 11 days ago) |
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Not exactly correct, but sure. Why not, it's irrelevant to the topic.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos] 1
#28274433 - 04/12/23 01:08 PM (9 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: No, they do not. There are certainly people that find pleasure in letting others make decisions for them. I am not one of those people. Life is a sum of decisions and I intend to live mine to the fullest.
[...]
I don't know if I can answer that question, because I do not know if I am fully considering every possible aspect of power dynamics in my daily life. If we are to ignore such semantic and vaguely counter-dunning-krueger-esque non-answers, then I think my participation in this conversation alone tells you that I am, in fact, aware of power dynamics in my daily choices, and I do at the very least consider them. You'll have to take my word that I usually consider them from the angle of minimizing my complicity in exploitation. I admit that I have explicitly used my inherent advantage within the current power structure to my benefit during my few interactions with law enforcement. I also, obviously, receive implicit benefits from my position in the power structure, some of which I may not even recognize, simply considering them to be "normal".
[...]
This is a loaded question. In the sense of this conversation, where the only other realistic option is to be at the bottom of the global system of exploitation, see:
It's only a loaded question if you believe there are only two realistic options - exploit or be exploited - rule or be ruled. My life experience has shown me that such a dichotomy is false, and the circumstances of my life aren't so exceptional as to preclude the experience to others. More often than not, the people telling me such things have never made an honest effort to seek alternatives - preferring to tell me such things are impossible as an extension of the lies they tell themselves. It's easier to depict an ideal as impossible, than to rationalize why I don't pursue the possibility.
Just consider the absolute direction you continue to move this conversation:
Quote:
Q: Do I have alternatives? A:I see no viable alternatives to the current system that I can wholeheartedly support.
Q: Do you consider power dynamics in your daily choices? A: I do not know if I am fully considering every possible aspect of power dynamics in my daily life.
Where have I suggested that we are only dealing in absolutes? They're often impossible standards, and that makes them easier to shrug off - but nowhere in my posts have I suggested such extremes.
Yes, my answers to you have been necessarily vague, because I don't know the specific circumstances of your life - and I wouldn't want to base an entire response around an assumption, like the idea that I own mountaintop property. The non-specificity doesn't remove the value in the line of questioning, though. I will take your word that you usually consider things from the angle of minimizing your complicity in exploitation, which is why I asked; perhaps you can take my word that alternatives to your displayed zero-sum approach to exploitation exist as well.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#28274616 - 04/12/23 03:03 PM (9 months, 11 days ago) |
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Okay, let us explore alternatives to my zero sum approach.
Apart from the US and China, can you please name a global superpower that is likely to dominate the global economic and political environment in the near future and not participate in exploitation?
By near future, I mean in the next decade.
Because ideology is nice, but I don't think there is an alternative here in the real world.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
#28274643 - 04/12/23 03:25 PM (9 months, 11 days ago) |
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Once again, consider the absolute direction you continue to move this conversation. Why do you think global systemic change is a necessary precursor?
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
#28274757 - 04/12/23 04:55 PM (9 months, 11 days ago) |
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Because as much as you keep pushing this conversation into one of theory and ideology, this conversation began with an explicitly cold-blooded analysis of the situation in the real world. More accurately my assertion that given the current situation in the real world in the near future, I would prefer that the US does not collapse and cede global hegemony to China. I then said I would prefer to be at the top of the pyramid (a US citizen in a US-dominated world) than at the bottom of the pyramid (a US citizen in a China-dominated world).
If you believe that this is unnecessary absolutism and that my reasoning is fallacious, then please, by all means:
Quote:
Kryptos said: can you please name a global superpower that is likely to dominate the global economic and political environment in the near future and not participate in exploitation?
OR, even, they don't have to not participate in exploitation, they just need to be (a) able to compete for global dominance in the next ten years and (b) fulfill your criteria as a non-exploitative alternative.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
#28274823 - 04/12/23 06:10 PM (9 months, 11 days ago) |
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I haven't made a single reference to theory or ideology in this discussion - I've asked questions, and made practical suggestions based on my own lived experiences. I'm not talking about globally dominant systemic alternatives, I'm talking about individual alternatives; largely in response to your claim that "morality is a luxury". If you feel differently, please highlight the passage(s).
That "explicitly cold-blooded analysis of the situation in the real world" is based on fallacious reasoning. Morality as luxury is one, but so is your continued reference to a false dichotomy of exploit or be exploited - exploitation is not a zero sum game - reducing my role in exploiting others doesn't necessitate greater exploitation of my self. It's your preference to continue to benefit from US global hegemony? Sure, you do you. It's the unavoidable conclusion based on an unemotional evaluation of reality? Not at all - it's easier to tell ourselves 'I just live in the real world' then it is to rationalize compromising morality for luxury.
I don't believe you ever answered my initial questions - maybe you will now?.. Isn't your attitude largely responsible for perpetuating the status quo? What's the functional difference between your argument when applied to "working 72 hour weeks for shit pay making disposable trinkets", and to chattel slavery?
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Edited by shivas.wisdom (04/12/23 06:17 PM)
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Kryptos
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#28274967 - 04/12/23 07:59 PM (9 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: I haven't made a single reference to theory or ideology in this discussion - I've asked questions, and made practical suggestions based on my own lived experiences. I'm not talking about globally dominant systemic alternatives, I'm talking about individual alternatives; largely in response to your claim that "morality is a luxury". If you feel differently, please highlight the passage(s).
Then we are talking about different things.
To me, morality is a luxury, because the more moral choice is often the more expensive choice. It is much easier and much cheaper to support Bezos than the few remaining small shops in the vicinity. For example.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
#28275051 - 04/12/23 08:53 PM (9 months, 11 days ago) |
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I think we're talking about the same thing, but at different levels of operation. Global systems are the sum-total of countless individual choices. How we choose to consume is an easy way to understand these individual choices, given the hyperconsumerist society we're immersed in - but it goes far beyond materialism. For example, interpersonal relationships - is morality a luxury here? Your claim is self-evidently false by virtue of the fact that morality is not limited to those who live luxurious lives. As I stated in my first response to you, "Depending on circumstances, the moral choice may be a harder one; but morality isn't a luxury, considering it's accessible to anyone at anytime."
Since we find ourselves circling back to that post, maybe you'll take the time to answer my questions now?.. Isn't your attitude largely responsible for perpetuating the status quo? What's the functional difference between your argument when applied to "working 72 hour weeks for shit pay making disposable trinkets", and to chattel slavery?
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Kryptos
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#28275089 - 04/12/23 09:19 PM (9 months, 11 days ago) |
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Well, yes. By consuming any products or services, I participate in the system of exploitation and therefore reinforce it daily. Of course, I do that to the same extent regardless of my attitude. I can buy a phone with the intent of scrolling memes or I can buy a phone with the intent of rigging up a bomb to destroy the bourgeois economy and return power back to the people.
Either way, the capitalist just sold a phone.
I am complicit. I perpetuate this system with my mind, my body, my soul, my very existence as a living breathing thinking being reinforces the status quo in which I exist.
What have we learned?
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
#28275467 - 04/13/23 06:56 AM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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There is no ethical consumption under capitalism.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28275520 - 04/13/23 07:37 AM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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I said learned, not reiterated.
Were all neolibs just pretending to be leftists, because if we were actual leftists, we would have died of hunger long ago.
Shivas, I think you're starting to convince me to be true to myself and embrace the neoliberal ethic.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
#28275720 - 04/13/23 10:37 AM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Were all neolibs just pretending to be leftists, because if we were actual leftists, we would have died of hunger long ago.
I think this is probably mostly true.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
#28276025 - 04/13/23 02:53 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: Shivas, I think you're starting to convince me to be true to myself and embrace the neoliberal ethic.
Being honest with ourselves is a pretty good starting point, imo.
What have we learned? Not sure if I've learned anything new just yet - but that's probably because you still avoid directly responding to the clarifying questions I've asked you. Why is that? Do you not have an answer; or do you not like your answer?
For reference: - Isn't your attitude largely responsible for perpetuating the status quo? - What's the functional difference between your argument when applied to "working 72 hour weeks for shit pay making disposable trinkets", and to chattel slavery? - Why do you think global systemic change is a necessary precursor?
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28276027 - 04/13/23 02:54 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: There is no ethical consumption under capitalism.
Dumpster diving is ethical consumption - change my mind.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#28276050 - 04/13/23 03:08 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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The source of left over food was from a corporation that employes child labor in an undeveloped nation.
The dumpster is located on private property, and by emptying via diving, you are inadvertently helping the bottom line of capitalist waste management company that services it.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: SirTripAlot] 1
#28276098 - 04/13/23 03:43 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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That child labor in an undeveloped nation will be utilized regardless of my actions; while my actions avoid direct (or indirect) profitability.
Waste disposal is generally pre-contracted on a schedule, and would similarly be utilized regardless of my actions; a small argument could be made that, if the waste is left at a dump that charges by weight, there is a slight benefit to the bottom line - but if the waste is resold (ie, to an industrial pig farm), there is a slight harm to the bottom line. This is also not the only source of waste food - field gleaning, for example, is food often just left out to rot.
Diverting food from a pre-existing waste stream is an ethical act of consumption.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28276101 - 04/13/23 03:49 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: There is no ethical consumption under capitalism.
Consentual cannibalism is ethical consumption - change my mind.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#28276127 - 04/13/23 04:18 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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All that is a stretch, just like my arugments. No way of knowing where the trash is sold to before diving; similarly whether there was profit or not, you are feeding off exploited labor.
The bottom line is that directly or indirectly, all of our actions contribute to the capitalist system. I am sure you have an internet service provider, for example.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (04/13/23 04:19 PM)
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Kryptos
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom] 1
#28276233 - 04/13/23 05:29 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:
Kryptos said: Shivas, I think you're starting to convince me to be true to myself and embrace the neoliberal ethic.
Being honest with ourselves is a pretty good starting point, imo.
What have we learned? Not sure if I've learned anything new just yet - but that's probably because you still avoid directly responding to the clarifying questions I've asked you. Why is that? Do you not have an answer; or do you not like your answer?
For reference: - Isn't your attitude largely responsible for perpetuating the status quo? - What's the functional difference between your argument when applied to "working 72 hour weeks for shit pay making disposable trinkets", and to chattel slavery? - Why do you think global systemic change is a necessary precursor?
- Yes - None, and I am content as a slavemaster. - There is no need for global systemic change. A leftist society is like nuclear fusion: 20 years from now.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28276284 - 04/13/23 06:05 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not here to claim I exist outside the system - I've done the whole 'live out in the woods' thing, and deeply understand it's nigh impossible to completely separate.
And sure, there are conceivable examples were taking food out of the trash provides a benefit to a waste disposal company - but that's only one specific method of getting food. How does gleaning a field destined to rot and be plowed, after being deemed unprofitable to harvest, benefit a companies bottom line?
From what you say, the act of eating in and of itself should be considered unethical, considering it depends on taking other beings life - the ultimate exploitation, no? In fact, Jainism (the origin of the principle of ahimsa/nonviolence) has an incredibly developed system of vegetarianism that pretty much adopts this view, and seeks the diet with the least amount of necessary violence. Some monks take it even further, and only accept leftover food that was originally cooked for a households meal with no intention of donating - this is considered the most karmically neutral diet.
To say it another way, I have friends who won't eat animal products, but they'll eat roadkill or dumpster meat because they aren't contributing to more animal death. If I don't contribute to the profit, how does eating waste indirectly contribute to the exploited labour that produced it?
Now do consentual cannibalism.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#28276341 - 04/13/23 06:42 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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Fair enough.
I am all for voting or supporting with one's money and actions; unfortunately we all are limited in scope and cause when it comes to ethical or moral decisions in any economic system. I think its crazy in today's age that there are definitely examples of labor that can be construed as slavery, yet, if I were to source every piece of property I have, at some point, I have contributed to this type of deplorable labor.
How can one fix this? Or is it just harm reduction that we should all aim for? Then again, Amazon has a deal going on right now. Think I will obstain? ....nope.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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mushboy
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#28276391 - 04/13/23 07:15 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: Now do consentual cannibalism.
eatin that pussy? or ass
whats the difference between eating a cow, raised and supported within this system or a human?
the calories you intake will always be tainted.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: mushboy]
#28276477 - 04/13/23 07:59 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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Yeah but the meaning behind 'no ethical consumption under capitalism', as I understand it, is that consuming goods or services in a capitalist society will inherently cause harm. Usually targeted towards criticizing things like green capitalism.
That human was already born and going to consume resources over their lifetime, whether I eat them or not. If the act in truly consentual, what harm have I caused?
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: How can one fix this? Or is it just harm reduction that we should all aim for? Then again, Amazon has a deal going on right now. Think I will obstain? ....nope.
It's not a question of whether we can fix this, but of how we wish to live. My actions don't derive their meaning from some future goal. Whether we choose to fight or not, we will suffer. The question is what we want the context of that suffering to be. Will we suffer in pursuit of the things that are most precious to us? Or will we suffer meaninglessly, attempting to flee from pain and uncertainty, as if that could protect us?
In this regard, my ability to believe in the possibility of change - not as something to occur in the future, but as something I can pursue right now - is a fundamental part of my power to live fully, to maintain a healthy relationship to my own agency. This is different from believing in a vision of revolution. It's not a prediction about the future, but rather a decision about how to relate to myself and my own capabilities.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#28278674 - 04/15/23 09:41 AM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
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Don’t feel like making a new thread so this is gonna be the all things China spot.
Lula visits Beijing, CPC plays Brazilian democracy song written during struggle against US-backed military dictatorship to welcome him.
https://twitter.com/thinking_panda/status/1647151768219033601?s=46&t=NCHEHEdgn4yG76LKXrSTrw
Later, at a presser, Lula asks why all international trade needs to be done in US dollars.
https://twitter.com/kawsachunnews/status/1646584667011776513?s=46&t=NCHEHEdgn4yG76LKXrSTrw
Normally I’d make a snarky comment about the US rehabilitating Bolsonaro and pushing to (re) imprison Lula, but I don’t think we have the reach or will to do something like that at this point. Really feels like our grip is beginning to slip.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28283208 - 04/18/23 05:57 AM (9 months, 5 days ago) |
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Huge prisoner swap recently between Saudi and Yemen, another sign of a peace deal coming into form
https://twitter.com/reuters/status/1646950195966402562?s=46&t=NCHEHEdgn4yG76LKXrSTrw
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The Ecstatic
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#28356760 - 06/12/23 09:17 AM (7 months, 12 days ago) |
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Pakistan now buying Russian oil in yuan (Chinese currency), what was even the point of that coup lol
https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/pakistans-russian-crude-shipment-paid-chinese-currency-minister-2023-06-12/
Very funny to me that we are blowing up the petrodollar because we just couldn’t accept Russia collapsing at a slightly reduced pace than what we wanted.
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