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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
    #28273406 - 04/11/23 06:48 PM (9 months, 12 days ago)

Do you actually believe the United States is the country that best represents your values, or is it that America gave you your values? You don’t really see the exceptionalism on either side anymore. Liberals are ashamed of what we were and conservatives are ashamed of what we’ve become, I don’t think anyone actually believes in the nation anymore.

2 Marx, 3 Chavez




I appreciate the response, really. But I’m not living where I am because I’ve made a logical choice and decided deep red Florida best represents my values. I’m here because this is where my family and friends are, and where I’ve lived for a majority of my life. I’d be much more ideologically aligned with the populous of a city like Seattle or Portland but I’d be forgoing all the comforts that friends and family bring, even taking into account the fact that my daughter and wife’s bodily autonomy is under threat by the state government. I just think it has so much more to do with social and economic circumstance than it does ideological preference.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #28274087 - 04/12/23 07:58 AM (9 months, 11 days ago)

Of the options, which again appear to be either the US, China, or Both, the US most closely aligns with my values. Unfortunately, those are the only realistic options for the apparent future. No exceptionalism needed, only uncomfortable reality.

If I had to pick countries in general, I'd say one of the EU nations. France or Germany. Not sure which I'd pick long term.

Where I live is dictated largely by economics. I go where the job goes. I have no connection to any one place past that--friends, family, etc. have internet.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
    #28274280 - 04/12/23 11:06 AM (9 months, 11 days ago)

Yeah, exactly. You live where you live because that’s where you were born and that’s where you have the means to earn a living.

Nature, nurture.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #28274322 - 04/12/23 11:45 AM (9 months, 11 days ago)

Not exactly correct, but sure. Why not, it's irrelevant to the topic.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #28274433 - 04/12/23 01:08 PM (9 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
No, they do not. There are certainly people that find pleasure in letting others make decisions for them. I am not one of those people. Life is a sum of decisions and I intend to live mine to the fullest.

[...]

I don't know if I can answer that question, because I do not know if I am fully considering every possible aspect of power dynamics in my daily life. If we are to ignore such semantic and vaguely counter-dunning-krueger-esque non-answers, then I think my participation in this conversation alone tells you that I am, in fact, aware of power dynamics in my daily choices, and I do at the very least consider them. You'll have to take my word that I usually consider them from the angle of minimizing my complicity in exploitation. I admit that I have explicitly used my inherent advantage within the current power structure to my benefit during my few interactions with law enforcement. I also, obviously, receive implicit benefits from my position in the power structure, some of which I may not even recognize, simply considering them to be "normal".

[...]

This is a loaded question. In the sense of this conversation, where the only other realistic option is to be at the bottom of the global system of exploitation, see:




It's only a loaded question if you believe there are only two realistic options - exploit or be exploited - rule or be ruled. My life experience has shown me that such a dichotomy is false, and the circumstances of my life aren't so exceptional as to preclude the experience to others. More often than not, the people telling me such things have never made an honest effort to seek alternatives - preferring to tell me such things are impossible as an extension of the lies they tell themselves. It's easier to depict an ideal as impossible, than to rationalize why I don't pursue the possibility.

Just consider the absolute direction you continue to move this conversation:

Quote:

Q: Do I have alternatives?
A:I see no viable alternatives to the current system that I can wholeheartedly support.

Q: Do you consider power dynamics in your daily choices?
A: I do not know if I am fully considering every possible aspect of power dynamics in my daily life.




Where have I suggested that we are only dealing in absolutes? They're often impossible standards, and that makes them easier to shrug off - but nowhere in my posts have I suggested such extremes.

Yes, my answers to you have been necessarily vague, because I don't know the specific circumstances of your life - and I wouldn't want to base an entire response around an assumption, like the idea that I own mountaintop property. The non-specificity doesn't remove the value in the line of questioning, though. I will take your word that you usually consider things from the angle of minimizing your complicity in exploitation, which is why I asked; perhaps you can take my word that alternatives to your displayed zero-sum approach to exploitation exist as well.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #28274616 - 04/12/23 03:03 PM (9 months, 11 days ago)

Okay, let us explore alternatives to my zero sum approach.

Apart from the US and China, can you please name a global superpower that is likely to dominate the global economic and political environment in the near future and not participate in exploitation?

By near future, I mean in the next decade.

Because ideology is nice, but I don't think there is an alternative here in the real world.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
    #28274643 - 04/12/23 03:25 PM (9 months, 11 days ago)

Once again, consider the absolute direction you continue to move this conversation. Why do you think global systemic change is a necessary precursor?


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
    #28274757 - 04/12/23 04:55 PM (9 months, 11 days ago)

Because as much as you keep pushing this conversation into one of theory and ideology, this conversation began with an explicitly cold-blooded analysis of the situation in the real world. More accurately my assertion that given the current situation in the real world in the near future, I would prefer that the US does not collapse and cede global hegemony to China. I then said I would prefer to be at the top of the pyramid (a US citizen in a US-dominated world) than at the bottom of the pyramid (a US citizen in a China-dominated world).

If you believe that this is unnecessary absolutism and that my reasoning is fallacious, then please, by all means:

Quote:

Kryptos said:
can you please name a global superpower that is likely to dominate the global economic and political environment in the near future and not participate in exploitation?




OR, even, they don't have to not participate in exploitation, they just need to be (a) able to compete for global dominance in the next ten years and (b) fulfill your criteria as a non-exploitative alternative.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
    #28274823 - 04/12/23 06:10 PM (9 months, 11 days ago)

I haven't made a single reference to theory or ideology in this discussion - I've asked questions, and made practical suggestions based on my own lived experiences. I'm not talking about globally dominant systemic alternatives, I'm talking about individual alternatives; largely in response to your claim that "morality is a luxury". If you feel differently, please highlight the passage(s).

That "explicitly cold-blooded analysis of the situation in the real world" is based on fallacious reasoning. Morality as luxury is one, but so is your continued reference to a false dichotomy of exploit or be exploited - exploitation is not a zero sum game - reducing my role in exploiting others doesn't necessitate greater exploitation of my self. It's your preference to continue to benefit from US global hegemony? Sure, you do you. It's the unavoidable conclusion based on an unemotional evaluation of reality? Not at all - it's easier to tell ourselves 'I just live in the real world' then it is to rationalize compromising morality for luxury.

I don't believe you ever answered my initial questions - maybe you will now?.. Isn't your attitude largely responsible for perpetuating the status quo? What's the functional difference between your argument when applied to "working 72 hour weeks for shit pay making disposable trinkets", and to chattel slavery?


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Edited by shivas.wisdom (04/12/23 06:17 PM)


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #28274967 - 04/12/23 07:59 PM (9 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I haven't made a single reference to theory or ideology in this discussion - I've asked questions, and made practical suggestions based on my own lived experiences. I'm not talking about globally dominant systemic alternatives, I'm talking about individual alternatives; largely in response to your claim that "morality is a luxury". If you feel differently, please highlight the passage(s).




Then we are talking about different things.

To me, morality is a luxury, because the more moral choice is often the more expensive choice. It is much easier and much cheaper to support Bezos than the few remaining small shops in the vicinity. For example.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
    #28275051 - 04/12/23 08:53 PM (9 months, 11 days ago)

I think we're talking about the same thing, but at different levels of operation. Global systems are the sum-total of countless individual choices. How we choose to consume is an easy way to understand these individual choices, given the hyperconsumerist society we're immersed in - but it goes far beyond materialism. For example, interpersonal relationships - is morality a luxury here? Your claim is self-evidently false by virtue of the fact that morality is not limited to those who live luxurious lives. As I stated in my first response to you, "Depending on circumstances, the moral choice may be a harder one; but morality isn't a luxury, considering it's accessible to anyone at anytime."

Since we find ourselves circling back to that post, maybe you'll take the time to answer my questions now?.. Isn't your attitude largely responsible for perpetuating the status quo? What's the functional difference between your argument when applied to "working 72 hour weeks for shit pay making disposable trinkets", and to chattel slavery?


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #28275089 - 04/12/23 09:19 PM (9 months, 11 days ago)

Well, yes. By consuming any products or services, I participate in the system of exploitation and therefore reinforce it daily. Of course, I do that to the same extent regardless of my attitude. I can buy a phone with the intent of scrolling memes or I can buy a phone with the intent of rigging up a bomb to destroy the bourgeois economy and return power back to the people.

Either way, the capitalist just sold a phone.

I am complicit. I perpetuate this system with my mind, my body, my soul, my very existence as a living breathing thinking being reinforces the status quo in which I exist.

What have we learned?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
    #28275467 - 04/13/23 06:56 AM (9 months, 10 days ago)

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #28275520 - 04/13/23 07:37 AM (9 months, 10 days ago)

I said learned, not reiterated.

Were all neolibs just pretending to be leftists, because if we were actual leftists, we would have died of hunger long ago.

Shivas, I think you're starting to convince me to be true to myself and embrace the neoliberal ethic.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
    #28275720 - 04/13/23 10:37 AM (9 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Were all neolibs just pretending to be leftists, because if we were actual leftists, we would have died of hunger long ago.




I think this is probably mostly true.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
    #28276025 - 04/13/23 02:53 PM (9 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Shivas, I think you're starting to convince me to be true to myself and embrace the neoliberal ethic.



Being honest with ourselves is a pretty good starting point, imo.

What have we learned? Not sure if I've learned anything new just yet - but that's probably because you still avoid directly responding to the clarifying questions I've asked you. Why is that? Do you not have an answer; or do you not like your answer?

For reference:
- Isn't your attitude largely responsible for perpetuating the status quo?
- What's the functional difference between your argument when applied to "working 72 hour weeks for shit pay making disposable trinkets", and to chattel slavery?
- Why do you think global systemic change is a necessary precursor?


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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #28276027 - 04/13/23 02:54 PM (9 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism.



Dumpster diving is ethical consumption - change my mind.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #28276050 - 04/13/23 03:08 PM (9 months, 10 days ago)

The source of left over food was from a corporation that employes child labor in an undeveloped nation.

The dumpster is located on private property, and by emptying via diving, you are inadvertently helping the bottom line of capitalist waste management company that services it.


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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #28276098 - 04/13/23 03:43 PM (9 months, 10 days ago)

That child labor in an undeveloped nation will be utilized regardless of my actions; while my actions avoid direct (or indirect) profitability.

Waste disposal is generally pre-contracted on a schedule, and would similarly be utilized regardless of my actions; a small argument could be made that, if the waste is left at a dump that charges by weight, there is a slight benefit to the bottom line - but if the waste is resold (ie, to an industrial pig farm), there is a slight harm to the bottom line. This is also not the only source of waste food - field gleaning, for example, is food often just left out to rot.

Diverting food from a pre-existing waste stream is an ethical act of consumption.


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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #28276101 - 04/13/23 03:49 PM (9 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism.



Consentual cannibalism is ethical consumption - change my mind.


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