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shivas.wisdom
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
#28271469 - 04/10/23 05:44 PM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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Depending on circumstances, the moral choice may be a harder one; but morality isn't a luxury, considering it's accessible to anyone at anytime. Isn't your attitude largely responsible for perpetuating the status quo? What's the functional difference between your argument when applied to "working 72 hour weeks for shit pay making disposable trinkets", or to chattel slavery?
Personally, I'm much happier neither being exploited nor exploiting others. The tops of mountains have often proven to be inhospitable environments in my experience.
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Kryptos
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#28271599 - 04/10/23 06:38 PM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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Your moral choice is the same as mine: acceptance.
You accept the status quo from the top of a mountain, and I accept the status quo from downtown.
Sure, we both do our thing, you organize...something, I don't mean to be flippant, I simply do not know that well; I discuss labor law and worker's right a little bit too loudly in the break room. You probably see your work as more important, and perhaps it is.
But I suspect that both of us could be doing a lot more to further the, uh, "moral" choice. And I suspect that both of us still participate in the exploitation to a degree that we may not be entirely comfortable with, but have come to accept.
Unfortunately, this is reflected in my attitude, which is decidedly compromising. As much as ideology is nice, I do live in the real world. And in the real world, I would prefer to be a subject of the modern hegemonic US than a subject of both the modern hegemonic Chinese or the prophesied future dominant hegemonic Chinese.
I think that we can both agree that neither the US nor the Chinese are in any way congruent with our goals, and I think that we can both agree that living in the US/western world is preferable to living in China, the only other reasonable global power for the next decade or two. We'll see about India, and maybe Nigeria further down the line. India I do not have high hopes, but Nigeria might bring some fresh new ideas.
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
#28271674 - 04/10/23 07:12 PM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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This whole thing is obviously rooted deeply in sunni vs Shia Islam fed by Iran. I don't believe for a second these people are going to just give up the fight. Until Yemen and Iran stop attacking people we shouldn't expect peace it's as simple as that. Thinking China brokered any sort of deal is absolutely hogwash what did they "broker" a shakey opening of diplomatic relations? This isn't a humanitarian crisis its a fucking war
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos] 1
#28271725 - 04/10/23 07:29 PM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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You would be wrong to say we both choose acceptance.
It's not about suggesting I don't participate in this system of global exploitation, nor is it about suggesting that the stuff I do is more important than what you do - it really can be boiled down to your stated willingness to accept recognized injustice that benefits you.
We both recognize the injustices of capitalism; but where you come to accept your beneficial place in the hierarchy of exploitation, I can't. For myself the question isn't 'does this benefit me?', it's more along the lines of 'do I have alternatives?' - and actually taking them when I do.
Have you ever read Civil Disobedience, by Henry David Thoreau?
Quote:
There are thousands who are in opinion opposed to slavery and to the war, who yet in effect do nothing to put an end to them; who, esteeming themselves children of Washington and Franklin, sit down with their hands in their pockets, and say that they know not what to do, and do nothing; who even postpone the question of freedom to the question of free trade, and quietly read the prices-current along with the latest advices from Mexico, after dinner, and, it may be, fall asleep over them both. What is the price-current of an honest man and patriot today? They hesitate, and they regret, and sometimes they petition; but they do nothing in earnest and with effect. They will wait, well disposed, for others to remedy the evil, that they may no longer have it to regret. At most, they give only a cheap vote, and a feeble countenance and God-speed, to the right, as it goes by them. There are nine hundred and ninety-nine patrons of virtue to one virtuous man. But it is easier to deal with the real possessor of a thing than with the temporary guardian of it.
[...]
It is not a man's duty, as a matter of course, to devote himself to the eradication of any, even the most enormous, wrong; he may still properly have other concerns to engage him; but it is his duty, at least, to wash his hands of it, and, if he gives it no thought longer, not to give it practically his support. If I devote myself to other pursuits and contemplations, I must first see, at least, that I do not pursue them sitting upon another man's shoulders. I must get off him first, that he may pursue his contemplations too.
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ballsalsa
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#28271752 - 04/10/23 07:46 PM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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It's good in principle but difficult in practice for many, myself included. I don't love slave-mined cobalt, etc. yet here I am, typing away on my phone. Even if I had the resources and technical ability to build a phone myself from self gathered raw materials, I almost certainly wouldn't. I'd feel guilty about it but I would still just take the free phone that comes with signing up for service.
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#28271757 - 04/10/23 07:47 PM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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None of that nonsense has anything to do with this post. Is America solely to blame for the the progressive and natural evolution of technology? Are they to blame for inherent human nature to things like greed and gluttony? Has china ever been proven to be anything but far from any better?
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#28271791 - 04/10/23 08:13 PM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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For sure it's difficult - and until that mass societal change finally arrives, impractical on occasion. I don't judge people for not living hardcore enough. Does that make acceptance necessary? We can't change everything, but we can change some things - accepting the status quo seems like a sure fire way to never discover the difference.
PS: a temporary solution to necessary consumption, is remove your participation to a degree by taking advantage of our systems waste. Lots of perfectly usable phones end up in landfills - purchasing used is always an option.
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Kryptos
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#28272077 - 04/10/23 11:07 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: We both recognize the injustices of capitalism; but where you come to accept your beneficial place in the hierarchy of exploitation, I can't. For myself the question isn't 'does this benefit me?', it's more along the lines of 'do I have alternatives?' - and actually taking them when I do.
Hmm. Well, I guess in this case, I see no viable alternatives to the current system that I can wholeheartedly support. I accept my place in the sense that this is the reality in which I live and I am cognizant of that. "Woke", one might say. I do not necessarily accept this reality as something that should be supported. Which is why I choose not to have kids.
I would, however, like to remain at or near the top of the current system. Hence my preference for US geopolitical dominance.
At the very least, this gives me the freedom to control my consumption. Or, I guess to put it in your words, it provides me alternative options in mundane, everyday decisions. After all, getting a used phone is a several hundred dollar investment, while a predatory phone plan loan is monthly.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos] 1
#28272105 - 04/10/23 11:53 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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It's not necessarily grand alternatives to the entire capitalist system that I'm referring to here. Evaluating my behaviours and choices; seeing how the power dynamics play out; and considering alternative means of living my life with less exploitation - that's all.
I've done lots of wandering over the years and one of the most common things I hear from people is that they wish they could be doing something similar, but it's just not possible - except in almost every instance, they've never actually tried. It's that acceptance of current circumstances as inevitable turned self-fulfilling prophecy that always strikes me the wrong way.
Even if it doesn't lead to some radical shift in your day-to-day circumstances, I think there's a lot of value in the foundation of thoughts that we create for ourselves.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#28272508 - 04/11/23 09:17 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: It's good in principle but difficult in practice for many, myself included. I don't love slave-mined cobalt, etc. yet here I am, typing away on my phone. Even if I had the resources and technical ability to build a phone myself from self gathered raw materials, I almost certainly wouldn't. I'd feel guilty about it but I would still just take the free phone that comes with signing up for service.
Exactly.
I think, at the very least, we can feel guilty about it.
“I enjoy my standard of living and don’t want it to decline” is basically a blanket justification for any number of horrors.
And yeah, it’s human nature to want to be comfortable, but our lifestyle is literally destroying the planet. Even parasites are smart enough to not kill their host.
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28272573 - 04/11/23 09:54 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Again what does this have to do with the situation in the middle east? Do you really believe that only the west is guilty of excess and places like China and Iran are perfect in that regard? If China really is so innocent why are the supplying like 85% of the world's trash for money and then letting wealthy folks use that money to do some incredibly ostentatious things while poor folks have an incredibly low quality of life?
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The Ecstatic
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
#28272574 - 04/11/23 09:56 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
CHeifM4sterDiezL said: Again what does this have to do with the situation in the middle east? Do you really believe that only the west is guilty of excess and places like China and Iran are perfect in that regard? If China really is so innocent why are the supplying like 85% of the world's trash for money and then letting wealthy folks use that money to do some incredibly ostentatious things while poor folks have an incredibly low quality of life?
Yes China and Iran are perfect.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#28272617 - 04/11/23 10:21 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: It's not necessarily grand alternatives to the entire capitalist system that I'm referring to here. Evaluating my behaviours and choices; seeing how the power dynamics play out; and considering alternative means of living my life with less exploitation - that's all.
I've done lots of wandering over the years and one of the most common things I hear from people is that they wish they could be doing something similar, but it's just not possible - except in almost every instance, they've never actually tried. It's that acceptance of current circumstances as inevitable turned self-fulfilling prophecy that always strikes me the wrong way.
Even if it doesn't lead to some radical shift in your day-to-day circumstances, I think there's a lot of value in the foundation of thoughts that we create for ourselves.
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
ballsalsa said: It's good in principle but difficult in practice for many, myself included. I don't love slave-mined cobalt, etc. yet here I am, typing away on my phone. Even if I had the resources and technical ability to build a phone myself from self gathered raw materials, I almost certainly wouldn't. I'd feel guilty about it but I would still just take the free phone that comes with signing up for service.
Exactly.
I think, at the very least, we can feel guilty about it.
“I enjoy my standard of living and don’t want it to decline” is basically a blanket justification for any number of horrors.
And yeah, it’s human nature to want to be comfortable, but our lifestyle is literally destroying the planet. Even parasites are smart enough to not kill their host.
So the concern is not due to my actions, or the decisions that lead to my actions. The primary concern in this situation is that I do not display the proper level of guilt and contrition while doing so, in your mind?
How many Hail Marxs and Acts of Chavez must I say in penance?
Edited by Kryptos (04/11/23 10:29 AM)
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
#28272660 - 04/11/23 10:42 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Those weren't my words - I don't see much point in just sitting in feelings of guilt not followed by action. Makes political activity into a dreary thing of duty.
I explicitly mention choices and behaviours - aka decisions and actions - but I'm not going to judge the unknown circumstances of your life with the absolute assessment that 'you can and must make radical changes in your day-to-day circumstances'. Regardless of personal circumstances, I believe blithe acceptance of beneficial injustice is more responsible for its perpetuation than outright malice, and never necessary - so I challenge it when encountered.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#28272671 - 04/11/23 10:48 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Then we go back to what you mean by "accept". I see two different meanings: enthusiastic consent and recognition of reality.
I accept the situation in the sense that I am not retreating to delusion in the face of an uncomfortable reality.
You seem to equate this with my enthusiastic consent for the uncomfortable reality in question.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
#28272682 - 04/11/23 10:59 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Enthusiastic consent? No. Recognition of reality? Not that either.
I'm talking about 'acceptance of current circumstances as inevitable turned self-fulfilling prophecy'. Saying "until this status quo changes, I am much happier at the top of the pyramid than I am being exploited" isn't a nondeluded recognition of your external reality; it's recognition of your personal beliefs, without recognition of the role such attitudes have in perpetuating the status quo.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#28272704 - 04/11/23 11:19 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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You seem to ascribe a secondary meaning that I don't believe is a logical conclusion of the initial acceptance.
I do not think the capitalist system is inevitable, nor do I seek to uphold the status quo past that which I require to live.
What would the ideal solution be, then, in your mind? Opting out is only achieved through suicide. You're gonna be part of the system. Where do you see yourself?
Because from what I can tell, living at the top of a mountain in the western world tells me you're part of that top few percent that not only live in the western world, but can also afford land. That's pretty high up the pyramid too.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
#28272749 - 04/11/23 11:46 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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You should read that paragraph again: "Personally, I'm much happier neither being exploited nor exploiting others. The tops of mountains have often proven to be inhospitable environments in my experience." It was in reference to your statement "I am much happier at the top of the pyramid than I am being exploited," and was intended to suggest that things don't necessarily break down into a dichotomy of good-at-the-top and bad-at-the-bottom.
I've already stated my suggestion: Evaluating my behaviours and choices; seeing how the power dynamics play out; and considering alternative means of living my life with less exploitation - that's all.
To apply that to you right now - you say you don't seek to uphold the status quo past that which you require to live, can you honestly say that you consider power dynamics in your daily choices; can you say that being on the top of a global system of exploitation is necessary to your life?
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: Kryptos]
#28272753 - 04/11/23 11:50 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
So the concern is not due to my actions, or the decisions that lead to my actions. The primary concern in this situation is that I do not display the proper level of guilt and contrition while doing so, in your mind?
How many Hail Marxs and Acts of Chavez must I say in penance?
Short of explicit left wing terrorism, I don’t think any single person can meaningfully oppose this system, not right now.
The point I’m making is that this paradigm of “what’s good for America is good for me” is worse than useless, it’s actively harmful.
We have enough “get along to go along” rubes in this country. If you’re gonna argue for empire because it makes your life better then you might as well go full grifter and launch your own Daily Wire and start selling brain pills, you’ll be much more comfortable that way.
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Re: China and Oman Broker Peace in Yemen (Authoritarianly) [Re: The Ecstatic] 2
#28273235 - 04/11/23 05:21 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: You should read that paragraph again: "Personally, I'm much happier neither being exploited nor exploiting others. The tops of mountains have often proven to be inhospitable environments in my experience." It was in reference to your statement "I am much happier at the top of the pyramid than I am being exploited," and was intended to suggest that things don't necessarily break down into a dichotomy of good-at-the-top and bad-at-the-bottom.
No, they do not. There are certainly people that find pleasure in letting others make decisions for them. I am not one of those people. Life is a sum of decisions and I intend to live mine to the fullest.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: I've already stated my suggestion: Evaluating my behaviours and choices; seeing how the power dynamics play out; and considering alternative means of living my life with less exploitation - that's all.
To apply that to you right now - you say you don't seek to uphold the status quo past that which you require to live, can you honestly say that you consider power dynamics in your daily choices
I don't know if I can answer that question, because I do not know if I am fully considering every possible aspect of power dynamics in my daily life. If we are to ignore such semantic and vaguely counter-dunning-krueger-esque non-answers, then I think my participation in this conversation alone tells you that I am, in fact, aware of power dynamics in my daily choices, and I do at the very least consider them. You'll have to take my word that I usually consider them from the angle of minimizing my complicity in exploitation. I admit that I have explicitly used my inherent advantage within the current power structure to my benefit during my few interactions with law enforcement. I also, obviously, receive implicit benefits from my position in the power structure, some of which I may not even recognize, simply considering them to be "normal".
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shivas.wisdom said: can you say that being on the top of a global system of exploitation is necessary to your life?
This is a loaded question. In the sense of this conversation, where the only other realistic option is to be at the bottom of the global system of exploitation, see:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Short of explicit left wing terrorism, I don’t think any single person can meaningfully oppose this system, not right now.
Sure.
In the sense of must the global system of exploitation exist? No, of course not. But it does, and I am more likely to successfully oppose the system of global exploitation from the source of the demand, not the supply of expendable labor. If, in the meantime, I get to generate knowledge for humanity, that has inherent value.
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The Ecstatic said: The point I’m making is that this paradigm of “what’s good for America is good for me” is worse than useless, it’s actively harmful.
That's not my paradigm at al. What's good for me is good for me. I don't particularly care about America, it just happens to be the global power most closely aligned with my interests. As much as I would love to live in a communalist utopia with locally communalized mutualist property rights and a single central state that exists for the sole purpose of redistributing wealth to the point at which every person's basic needs are met if they are unable to find a place in the confederation of communities (which will happen), that utopian society does not currently exist. My options are (a) a US-dominated earth, (b) a multipolar earth, and (c) a Chinese-dominated earth. I guess also (d) I don't want to set the wooorld ooon fiiireee. Of those three reasonable options for the near future, I pick option (a). Mostly because option (c) sounds a lot like (a), except this conversation would be illegal. and because (b) sounds like a massive wave of nationalism that nobody, and I mean absolutely nobody, under the age of 90 has experienced in their lifetime. Literally McCarthy shit. (d) I refer to nuclear war, but the only realistic way for the common man to opt out of having to live in this world is suicide. Functionally the same outcome for me, as far as I'm concerned.
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: We have enough “get along to go along” rubes in this country. If you’re gonna argue for empire because it makes your life better then you might as well go full grifter and launch your own Daily Wire and start selling brain pills, you’ll be much more comfortable that way.
There are certainly people that find pleasure in letting others make decisions for them. I am not one of those people.
Quote:
How many Hail Marxs and Acts of Chavez must I say in penance?
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