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Invisibleburntkitty
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Registered: 01/02/23
Posts: 494
I reject religion * 2
    #28262903 - 04/04/23 10:46 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

I enjoy a good fable though. I would be to led to believe god is the devil(you know the real monotheism). I couldn't accept god the baby killer. Life is just amazing though, it's not crazy to think something could come and resurrect your ass so you could pay your dues


--------------------
Hating America doesn't make one racist, it probably means they're the complete opposite. That's not it's name pilgrim

Shia wang a genius he just kept showing his soft til the paparazzi stopped following

Thought capitalism was suppose to stop these soviet union lines

If you give me herpes, Ill give you AIDs

What kind of sickness do they have for wanting the creative not creative. I can only imagine it's satanism


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OfflineKmacmo
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Re: I reject religion [Re: burntkitty] * 1
    #28262940 - 04/04/23 11:47 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

I believe life is special and that there is no existence after you die. No soul or energy. Otherwise life wouldn't be so special.
Religious people don't care about this experience they just want to go to heaven.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: I reject religion [Re: burntkitty]
    #28262949 - 04/05/23 12:28 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

burntkitty said:
I enjoy a good fable though. I would be to led to believe god is the devil(you know the real monotheism). I couldn't accept god the baby killer. Life is just amazing though, it's not crazy to think something could come and resurrect your ass so you could pay your dues




Then stand outside and feel the warmth of our Lord, because at the foundation of it we have the Sun to thank for everything outside of chemosynthesis around deep ocean volcanic vents.

I follow Ascetic values that don't share monasticism. Instead focusing on the practice of moderation. Not abstinence, but practicing moderation.

I consider myself an evolutionist in regard to the peers I value.

And if you've ever met someone who's been in a coma, I think there's a good chance they'll say it was a flat line.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: I reject religion [Re: Kmacmo] * 2
    #28263050 - 04/05/23 05:57 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

"Religious people don't care about this experience they just want to go to heaven."

That does hit home, but it turns out, <fill in the blank>.

There is no heaven in the future that is not in the present, thus the lessons to refine and see, but assuming there is an afterlife without the problems of the physical body, the physical incarnation is rather baffling, bringing in the ideas of karmics and desires for something in this phase, sex and food I've often thought the culprits, but reasons should span the qualities.

The physical incarnation seems self-defeating in the purposes though. That we came here gives the entanglements of the physical, though we came to be rid of them so it goes. Then logically we brought the desires and debts from before.

There is dukkha, suffering or dissatisfaction, which is universal here. I would say aging confirms it certainly, but I think suffering, dissatisfaction, may have been even more intense in the strength and passions of youth.

Dispassion is no joke. Even atheists who seek refinement practice it in their meditations and the like.


Edited by syncro (04/05/23 06:17 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I reject religion [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28263057 - 04/05/23 06:23 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

spiritual investment concepts are bewildering.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28263079 - 04/05/23 07:00 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

You practice the first part though, "There is no heaven in the future that is not in the present." Your vipassana be that.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I reject religion [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28263202 - 04/05/23 08:26 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

I like the root idea of re-ligare
to re-connect


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: I reject religion [Re: syncro]
    #28263211 - 04/05/23 08:34 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

burntkitty said:

I enjoy a good fable though.




There are 36 parables attributed to Jesus.  Some are fairly good.

Quote:

syncro said:

Dispassion is no joke. Even atheists who seek refinement practice it in their meditations and the like.




I assume dispassion often gets a bad rap because it's viewed as being passive and emotionally uninvolved?

When a mind is aflame with passion, suffering ensues.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I reject religion [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28263294 - 04/05/23 09:24 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

it takes tremendous application


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Offlineblessed


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Re: I reject religion [Re: burntkitty] * 1
    #28263382 - 04/05/23 10:27 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

burntkitty said:
I reject religion



And in doing so you have done the right thing, and by the right thing, I mean that you have made a choice.  Now you can live your life confidently knowing that if you are ever in a fox-hole that you won't call on god for help, and that when you die, you have no need to worry of standing before god ether.  Just one thing though, you must as a intelligent person accept that if you are wrong, then you will have to stand before the God of the Bible, but don't worry about that ever happening, because you are right, it's all a big fairy tale joke :thumbup:.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I reject religion [Re: blessed]
    #28263394 - 04/05/23 10:33 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

choice may not come into this at all, at least we can report what we like and do not like - even if we make no choices about it.
who we are, and how we think is a matter of accumulated conditioning.
no choice really ever.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28263477 - 04/05/23 11:20 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

I think that neglects that at any point you can see ways to connect or not. That's a choice. Not all connections are optional of course. But many are.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28263481 - 04/05/23 11:21 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

that is bc it is only possible to have free will in a universe where G-d also exists.

the first choice is choosing to believe, a simple yes or no.

if yes, all things become possible, if no, you become an avatar slave!


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Offlineblessed


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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28263483 - 04/05/23 11:24 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
choice may not come into this at all, at least we can report what we like and do not like - even if we make no choices about it.
who we are, and how we think is a matter of accumulated conditioning.
no choice really ever.



I believe that there is a choice, a choice to believe or not.  A choice is a requirement of the Bible and of belief as well.  Now if the Bible is a load of crap then the choice it presents is a useless one, but as it IS possible that's it's not a load of crap, then it's message (and presented choice) may be a very important one.  Most people are presented with a world view of that we are made by a god or by the evolution process (without a god creator), so there is a choice to be made, what one chooses will have an impact on how they live their life.

And to not make a choice, is in fact a choice in it self.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: I reject religion [Re: blessed]
    #28263492 - 04/05/23 11:29 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

You might enjoy this view from a former missionary:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I reject religion [Re: blessed] * 1
    #28263530 - 04/05/23 11:48 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

I am attracted to freedom from interference and offense, I am attracted to peace, I am attracted to beauty, I am attracted to wisdom and Honesty.

I also have physical needs and am attracted to meet those with dignity.

I am not attracted to people, systems, creeds or political leaders who would attempt to manipulate and deflect me from what I am attracted to.

The postulate of free will at one point in our history was introduced to motivate people to political and religious enslavement via the practice of differentiating people from animals, who do not have free will.

People are still animals, animals that can be duped and enslaved by ideas.

Religions, cults, political movements dispense enslaving ideas, and set husband against wife, son against father, brother against sister.

Religion that does not serve to reconnect people is poison. So take free will and shove it up your candlesticks.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: I reject religion [Re: blessed]
    #28263651 - 04/05/23 01:14 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

blessed said:
Quote:

burntkitty said:
I reject religion



And in doing so you have done the right thing, and by the right thing, I mean that you have made a choice.  Now you can live your life confidently knowing that if you are ever in a fox-hole that you won't call on god for help, and that when you die, you have no need to worry of standing before god ether.  Just one thing though, you must as a intelligent person accept that if you are wrong, then you will have to stand before the God of the Bible, but don't worry about that ever happening, because you are right, it's all a big fairy tale joke :thumbup:.




That's just like your opinion man, if god would send me to hell, I'd never ask the cunt for a cent.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly] * 1
    #28263807 - 04/05/23 03:27 PM (9 months, 18 days ago)

Before you reject religion why not make up your own?

Based on your beliefs and customs!

Personally I am a gnostic any religion.. I take the best parts of religions and throw the rest in the trash bin..

But I like to review what I have thrown away but not often.

So ultimately knowledge is my religion.. I can even include some tenets of Scientology.


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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: I reject religion [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #28264051 - 04/05/23 07:16 PM (9 months, 18 days ago)

I more of less reject religion also, but it seems during my mushroom trips I happened upon some of the core archetypal elements that would make up a religion.  I would say that I've had mystical experiences that felt like religious experiences.  I go back and forth on my beliefs about the immortality of the soul.

Religion takes the place of the direct experience of the Entheogen.  Reality has a Grail Cycle or something. The mushroom 'chosen one' makes an appearance, then a religion or other spiritual tradition is born out of the happening.  This seems organized by the ruling class.  The Entheogn that inspired the God-Man is taught to be wrong by the authorities using the story as their way to control the masses, or it is replaced by a placebo ritual.  Then the Entheogen is set to make a come-back after it was taken away.  Potentially this is the responsibility of the Buddha or Christ.:sherlock:


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: I reject religion [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #28264224 - 04/05/23 08:53 PM (9 months, 18 days ago)

I've never had a mystical experience outside of myself :shrug: and through all my trips I came around with some awareness of my own thoughts.

I've just never taken seriously that something supernatural influenced me really.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleburntkitty
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Re: I reject religion [Re: burntkitty]
    #28264424 - 04/05/23 11:07 PM (9 months, 18 days ago)

Prayer is good for you. I know the physics perfectly well. If ones not positive they can't manifest shit. I keep trying to get my hands on the art of dreaming but that bitch so elusive. Butches feel humbled coming close to death. Some of us have come closer and more times than you'd know that's not god saving your ass. Now they saying deja vu is just some chemical reaction. You never had any memory of the events happening already it was just a feeling. I can't remember any deja vu where I could have said what was going to happen next in it. It was still final destination though.


--------------------
Hating America doesn't make one racist, it probably means they're the complete opposite. That's not it's name pilgrim

Shia wang a genius he just kept showing his soft til the paparazzi stopped following

Thought capitalism was suppose to stop these soviet union lines

If you give me herpes, Ill give you AIDs

What kind of sickness do they have for wanting the creative not creative. I can only imagine it's satanism


Edited by burntkitty (04/05/23 11:30 PM)


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: I reject religion [Re: burntkitty]
    #28264431 - 04/05/23 11:12 PM (9 months, 18 days ago)

I don't pray (I meditate) but I see value in prayer.  It's like having a gratitude practice (giving thanks) and acknowledging one's intentions about how they want to live their life.  What is important.  It is so easy to get so wrapped up in stuff we forget what is actually important to us.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I reject religion [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28264554 - 04/06/23 02:49 AM (9 months, 18 days ago)

I accept the religious symbology that is already in me the same as I accept my experience of architecture, art, and science illustration.

Impressions of these visual objects, materials, people, feelings, and spaces become mental contents that I would expect could arise during waking dreams and hallucination intact or as parts of what is experienced.

It does not trouble me that I cannot be free of impressions that have become part of my mind through years of experience.

What I don't like about religion is the control it assumes and the amount of supervised superstition it drenches its adherents with. At its best it is a kind of synchronized swimming without getting wet. Great for weddings and funerals. At worst it is a Kafkaesque social nightmare.

In general, a humble and honest approach to the unknown is valuable to cultivate, rather than simply panic or experience fight & flight impulses at every point of confusion. Religion and prayer might help keep people calm and I cannot argue with the value of that. Learning to pray for one's family and friends is the essence of loving kindness practice.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: I reject religion [Re: burntkitty]
    #28266037 - 04/06/23 08:06 PM (9 months, 17 days ago)

Quote:

burntkitty said:
I keep trying to get my hands on the art of dreaming




Carlos Castaneda? pdf - The Art of Dreaming


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Offlineblessed


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Re: I reject religion [Re: Kickle]
    #28267778 - 04/07/23 08:50 PM (9 months, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
You might enjoy this view from a former missionary:




Was unable to watch video due to Youtube age restriction and verification request.


Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I am attracted to freedom from interference and offense, I am attracted to peace, I am attracted to beauty, I am attracted to wisdom and Honesty.

I also have physical needs and am attracted to meet those with dignity.

I am not attracted to people, systems, creeds or political leaders who would attempt to manipulate and deflect me from what I am attracted to.

The postulate of free will at one point in our history was introduced to motivate people to political and religious enslavement via the practice of differentiating people from animals, who do not have free will.

People are still animals, animals that can be duped and enslaved by ideas.

Religions, cults, political movements dispense enslaving ideas, and set husband against wife, son against father, brother against sister.

Religion that does not serve to reconnect people is poison. So take free will and shove it up your candlesticks.



I don't believe you really honestly mean these things above.  I believe that you want something without paying the/it's price, I believe that when you decided on something that you do not cut off all other options (which is what a true decision requires), I believe that you want the benefits of a relationship without the commitment and sacrifice that is required.

I also disagree with you that people are animals and while I believe that we have free will, I do agree it's not completely free.  But as limited as our free will may be, I don't believe humans and animals can be clumped in the same class when it comes to conscious and free will.

As for religion,  it is said by some to be mans attempt to get themself right with the gods and in their good books.  Like the person who does their good deed for the day and goes to church once a year.  Like the ones that don't eat meat (or is it fish?) on good Friday, thinking that doing so and the previously mentioned types of activities will get them into heaven and make everything right with god, nothing could be further from the truth.

So on you last few points about religion I agree, it's not good.  But that's the difference with religion and true christianity , a true believer and follower of God does not do "Religion" to be right with God.  The Bible say's that there is only one way, and it's not by doing or being Religious.  I think that you are confusing man made religion with the word of God.


Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

blessed said:
Quote:

burntkitty said:
I reject religion



And in doing so you have done the right thing, and by the right thing, I mean that you have made a choice.  Now you can live your life confidently knowing that if you are ever in a fox-hole that you won't call on god for help, and that when you die, you have no need to worry of standing before god ether.  Just one thing though, you must as a intelligent person accept that if you are wrong, then you will have to stand before the God of the Bible, but don't worry about that ever happening, because you are right, it's all a big fairy tale joke :thumbup:.




That's just like your opinion man, if god would send me to hell, I'd never ask the cunt for a cent.



Actually it's not my opinion, it's a fact.

Regardless of what the parameters are, when one is faced with a yes or no (red or black, truth or false, life or death) choice and the choice they make is wrong, then that mean that the other choice was right.

By the way, who said he's sending you to hell?  Knowing you'll point to the bible in your reply, I would then like to share that the Bible doesn't say that God is sending you sudly to hell, what it does say is, that if you reject the truth of God (therefore accepting the Lie instead as your truth), then it's by your own choice that you will end up there.

So again I say, regardless of what the parameters are, when one is faced with a yes or no (red or black, truth or false, life or death) choice, and the choice they make is wrong, then that mean that the other choice is right/true.


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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: I reject religion [Re: blessed]
    #28267798 - 04/07/23 08:56 PM (9 months, 16 days ago)

What exactly is the 'Truth of God'...:confused:


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: I reject religion [Re: blessed] * 1
    #28267864 - 04/07/23 09:42 PM (9 months, 16 days ago)

I accept none other than the Sun and nature as a whole to represent a realistic idea of God. Representations of the Sun that have been blended with modern enlightenment.

We live in a heaven on earth in a hell that is the universe my friend.

At least I think we do.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28268006 - 04/08/23 12:35 AM (9 months, 16 days ago)

:thumbup:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I reject religion [Re: blessed]
    #28268069 - 04/08/23 03:17 AM (9 months, 16 days ago)

religion, confused with god -me???
sorry, my god is nature, everyone is born a believer, nothing is true, but we can be honest about it.


--------------------
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Offlineblessed


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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28268679 - 04/08/23 01:48 PM (9 months, 16 days ago)

Quote:

FishOilTheKid said:
What exactly is the 'Truth of God'...:confused:



I'd really like to try and answer your question with the main things I believe and understand about God, but I'll have to make that post in the next couple of days or so.


Quote:

sudly said:
I accept none other than the Sun and nature as a whole to represent a realistic idea of God. Representations of the Sun that have been blended with modern enlightenment.

We live in a heaven on earth in a hell that is the universe my friend.

At least I think we do.



I know sudly that some people you may have encountered in life have probably bible bashed you somewhat, I can only speak for myself and say as a fellow member of this great site, I accept what you believe.


Quote:

redgreenvines said:
my god is nature, everyone is born a believer, nothing is true, but we can be honest about it.



I don't have a problem with that  :thumbup:.

As I've said before, we clearly see things from a difference perspective, which is totally fine.  I want to add that everything I've said over our recent conversations are things that I believe and I accept that I could be wrong.

I also accept what you believe and have absolutely no desire to make you believe in something else.


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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: I reject religion [Re: blessed]
    #28268718 - 04/08/23 02:24 PM (9 months, 16 days ago)

Quote:

I'd really like to try and answer your question with the main things I believe and understand about God, but I'll have to make that post in the next couple of days or so.




I would really appreciate that.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: I reject religion [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #28268824 - 04/08/23 03:57 PM (9 months, 15 days ago)

Nah man I've never been bible bashed or even gone to a serman. I just read parts of the bible and thought it was some of the dumbest shit I'd ever read and that there was no moral interpretation for things like murdering 42 children with bears for pointing at baldness.

I admire others who can hold or espouse to hole a natural view of the world without a supernatural reliance.

I truly believe you are wrong in regard to your interpretation of God because beyond the Sun and our atmosphere, it is hell.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleburntkitty
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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28270454 - 04/09/23 09:08 PM (9 months, 14 days ago)

The sheep still moo(or baaahh if you will) his name. To think he wasn't one of the greatest socerers is complacent. To think dude didn't commit suicide (as the greatness one must have been) is to believe we are all doomed to a forced fate.


--------------------
Hating America doesn't make one racist, it probably means they're the complete opposite. That's not it's name pilgrim

Shia wang a genius he just kept showing his soft til the paparazzi stopped following

Thought capitalism was suppose to stop these soviet union lines

If you give me herpes, Ill give you AIDs

What kind of sickness do they have for wanting the creative not creative. I can only imagine it's satanism


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: I reject religion [Re: burntkitty]
    #28270530 - 04/09/23 10:48 PM (9 months, 14 days ago)

Do explain reincarnation for us! :cookiemonster:


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibletekramrepus
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Re: I reject religion [Re: Kmacmo] * 2
    #28277824 - 04/14/23 06:00 PM (9 months, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Kmacmo said:

Religious people don't care about this experience they just want to go to heaven.




That's a very strong statement, directed at the majority of all people on this planet.

I think if you take the time to think about it, you'll realize this is a very inaccurate statement.

I understand that believing that this is all we have, can make it seem MORE special than to believe something exists after this life..... but these two are not mutually exclusive.

You can be religious, as many people are, and still GREATLY value this life. I would dare to say that on average, your average sincere religious practitioner cares more about this life than your average atheist. This is just from my own personal experience though.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: tekramrepus]
    #28278034 - 04/14/23 08:40 PM (9 months, 9 days ago)

that is certainly possible,
bible thumpers give earnestly religious people a bad name

I could imagine people who sustain a vision of holiness, and do kind things for everyone without any expectation to be noticed or thanked, it is kind of how I am.

I find nature holy and observing it is exalting.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28278142 - 04/14/23 10:11 PM (9 months, 9 days ago)

You are confusing religious credo with religious action or practice. All the things you say are more or less later additions to religion.

Let us try to look at religion in its earliest incarnation: group cult practice. Doctors, eventually becomming priets, saw people for advice and healing but their main role was to run harvest festivals and perform sacrifices and rituals. Their relationship to the gods was seen as part of a purpose: they directly influenced whether crops grew and could see the future, according to their cultures.

All the stuff we later associate with religion - monotheistic ethical codes, etc - only occurs after the development of christianity and Islam.

In its most intimate form, religion is life itself - worship of the good. Most of the things first imputed to god were merely things meant to help the growing season - god was appealed to for rain and for bigger crops. That is a kind of religion, the religion where one prays to god to help their action, that I think is inevitable everywhere. People appeal to something higher to help their endeavor. They continue to do this even if they are 'atheist'. When seen in this light religion is very much related to the practical demands of the world.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28278322 - 04/15/23 03:55 AM (9 months, 9 days ago)

Quote:

CreonAntigone said:
You are confusing religious credo with religious action or practice. All the things you say are more or less later additions to religion.

Let us try to look at religion in its earliest incarnation: group cult practice. Doctors, eventually becomming priets, saw people for advice and healing but their main role was to run harvest festivals and perform sacrifices and rituals. Their relationship to the gods was seen as part of a purpose: they directly influenced whether crops grew and could see the future, according to their cultures.

All the stuff we later associate with religion - monotheistic ethical codes, etc - only occurs after the development of christianity and Islam.

In its most intimate form, religion is life itself - worship of the good. Most of the things first imputed to god were merely things meant to help the growing season - god was appealed to for rain and for bigger crops. That is a kind of religion, the religion where one prays to god to help their action, that I think is inevitable everywhere. People appeal to something higher to help their endeavor. They continue to do this even if they are 'atheist'. When seen in this light religion is very much related to the practical demands of the world.



theoretically, perhaps
you are recounting an unproven history.
probably one you have collected and joined up from tv shows and books, but as far as I know there is not firm evidence of what leads to what.
Even in our own families, and neighbourhoods, someone may seem wise like a shaman, and that person may do work for people who come from far and wide with their ailments.
but who they are and what their skills or effects are is not the same accross the board.
some just read tarot cards, some make love potions, and some just say, you will be fine.
sometimes they pretend to do surgery with bare hands.
this may involve faith and religion or may have no relation to that.
One rabbi had visitors from many countries who lined up and received blessings, and lived from one week to the next walking on a cloud until the next blessing. Who can say that this was not responsible in some ways for mystery cures of cancers, leukemias, and IBS, but people swore that this rabbi was a real connection to god.

so some have huge followings and also conform to a known religion, and some have less impact and may or may not be of a known religion.

I think if you come to know your own mind you are a bright light in your own social group, and that is a good way to go. if you can get that way through religion why not?


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Re: I reject religion [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28278364 - 04/15/23 04:57 AM (9 months, 9 days ago)

Ancient doctors would have smeared some funky shit into peoples wounds alright.

Sacrifices are messed up, and the Aztecs didn't do themselves any favours following it how they did.

Could have used the blood and bone of all their corpses to embetter their crops but oh no, that's not what their god was asking for said the priest who loves cutting hearts from chests, we must spill more blood for there to be rain!

What the duck am I supposed to take from insanity fed by ignorance?

If religion is life itself then eating hearts is all the jam, I mean even that moses or whoever fella was storied to have killed his son Isaac or some bumble because a burning bush sucked him off behind the caves of a zombie?

Historically religion is a way to center the masses and coalesce society to work towards a single cause or purpose, and for that purpose I think religion has worked well. But the specifics are bat shit insane.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28278373 - 04/15/23 05:06 AM (9 months, 9 days ago)

So does God 🤭


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28278402 - 04/15/23 05:33 AM (9 months, 9 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
...

If religion is life itself then eating hearts is all the jam, I mean even that moses or whoever fella was storied to have killed his son Isaac or some bumble because a burning bush sucked him off behind the caves of a zombie?

Historically religion is a way to center the masses and coalesce society to work towards a single cause or purpose, and for that purpose I think religion has worked well. But the specifics are bat shit insane.



this is so widely written about that I amazed you have it so garbled, that is not something to be proud of.
It easily leads to wrong stories proliferating.
in precis from google
Quote:

Although Sarah was past the age of childbearing, God promised Abraham and Sarah that they would have a son, and Isaac was born. Later, to test Abraham's obedience, God commanded Abraham to sacrifice the boy. Abraham made all the preparations for the ritual sacrifice, but God spared Isaac at the last moment.





in a different tale much more psychedelic as part of the exodus story after ending hebrew slavery in Egypt, also from google
Quote:

There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of a bush; he looked, and the bush was blazing, yet it was not consumed. Then Moses said, 'I must turn aside and look at this great sight, and see why the bush is not burned up.




nevertheless, I agree the stories are pretty nutty. But we do see odd behavior from our peers when it comes to hallucination.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28278421 - 04/15/23 05:46 AM (9 months, 9 days ago)

I know I garbled it, but I don't think that makes a difference to the story :shrug:

The madman only stopped because an angel pulled the ol switcheroo on him.

Quote:

According to the Hebrew Bible, God commands Abraham to offer his son Isaac as a sacrifice. After Isaac is bound to an altar, a messenger from God stops Abraham before the sacrifice finishes, saying "now I know you fear God". Abraham looks up and sees a ram and sacrifices it instead of Isaac.




I don't see why I would think the former over the later.

Quote:

the flame Moses saw was in fact God's Uncreated Energies/Glory, manifested as light




Quote:

Suggestions have been made that the Dictamnus albus plant, found throughout northern Africa is a candidate for the burning bush. In the summer, the plant, also known as the “gas plant,” exudes a variety of volatile oils that can catch fire readily and may give the impression that the bush is burning





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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28278441 - 04/15/23 06:10 AM (9 months, 9 days ago)

so it was real?
i thought it was hallucinatory
that manna can really f*ck with your brain


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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28278451 - 04/15/23 06:21 AM (9 months, 9 days ago)

I mean without a rigorous explanation of natural observations I can't necessarily blame ancient people for having their own interpretations of the phenomena they witness, but I still think it's important to try and come to some kind of rational conclusion about them.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28278619 - 04/15/23 08:50 AM (9 months, 9 days ago)

yes, we have to keep waking up, even after we wake up.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: burntkitty]
    #28279861 - 04/16/23 12:33 AM (9 months, 8 days ago)

I am open towards religion, meaning I view many religious themes as having hidden allegories which are timeless.  I think if viewed in a philosophical light, then the world's religions can be illuminating. 

You have to understand some of the stuff in certain religious texts is relevant for the state of mind which was prevalent when those texts were written and we have evolved a lot since then. 

There are tons of allegories, metaphors, and other things found throughout religion which we see throughout numerous stories, even unrelated children's stories contain some of the same messages just told in a different way, which tells me that there are truths which echo throughout existence which we find value in retelling in numerous ways.

I would like to see someone rewrite the worlds religions, maybe use an algorithm to pull information out of the world's religious texts and see what is relevant and then publish what is relevant into one religious text for everyone, just for fun of course.  I am not supporting a one world religious thing, I don't get into conspiracy stuff!

Anyway, I know the golden rule is never going to go out of style, but I also know that one doesn't have to be religious to understand the truth of the golden rule.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: Lucis]
    #28279885 - 04/16/23 01:16 AM (9 months, 8 days ago)

And now the stuff of certain religious texts isn't relevant anymore because we have modern understandings of natural phenomena.

What would we find that is relevant from the world religious texts? Good question I suppose.

Come say there is not one of the four thousand gods posited and what then?


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28280268 - 04/16/23 09:28 AM (9 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
What would we find that is relevant from the world religious texts? Good question I suppose.





It's not about putting a modern understanding on something, which I know we have many modern ways of interpreting things, but if you can educate others using certain stories then it will make things easier for certain people to mentally digest.

If you were in another country and trying to teach foreigners there a life lesson and they were religious but you were not yet you were familiar with religious stories and trying to find common ground then you might turn to a parable to teach from since the parable contained a lesson which held great value to the people you were trying to educate. 

Many Disney movies teach children lessons yet we see those same lessons being taught in a different way other than the childish ways that certain cartoons present them.  Does that make sense, sorry I am rushed and have to get to work!


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Re: I reject religion [Re: Lucis]
    #28280335 - 04/16/23 10:13 AM (9 months, 8 days ago)

try again later
I got that you are writing about impersonating religiosity in order to communicate with religious people in a foreign country and am wondering where this is going.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: Lucis]
    #28280760 - 04/16/23 03:54 PM (9 months, 7 days ago)

We have kids books about plants if you want to spoon feed people interesting stories in simple ways.

Hypothetically I would find common ground with religious people through gratitude to the Sun and nature, but the worry in that is how emotionally stable the individuals are and if they'd become defensive with talk that isn't entirely congruent to their own religious views.

Parables don't have to be religious so I don't see why anyone should buy into that framing other than to appease people of a specific religion for concern of them finding offense.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28280968 - 04/16/23 06:21 PM (9 months, 7 days ago)

So Rgvs do you believe in absolute knowledge?

Or do you think a person at best can tell the truth all the time as a best possible attainment?


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Re: I reject religion [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #28281114 - 04/16/23 07:56 PM (9 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
So Rgvs do you believe in absolute knowledge?

Or do you think a person at best can tell the truth all the time as a best possible attainment?



I think this is two questions aimed at me
I do not believe in absolute knowledge
nor anything absolute.

I think a person should be as honest with themselves as they can be.
It is similar to not lying, but it is not about always telling the truth, since truth itself is elusive, and usually what is taken for the truth is not even true.
best to be honest about that with yourself.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28281359 - 04/16/23 10:36 PM (9 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
We have kids books about plants if you want to spoon feed people interesting stories in simple ways.

Hypothetically I would find common ground with religious people through gratitude to the Sun and nature, but the worry in that is how emotionally stable the individuals are and if they'd become defensive with talk that isn't entirely congruent to their own religious views.

Parables don't have to be religious so I don't see why anyone should buy into that framing other than to appease people of a specific religion for concern of them finding offense.




I agree with you here.

What I was saying is that even if you weren't Christian but knew a lot about Christianity or some other religion or myth, tale, legend,, etc, then you might be able to help others through a tough time who are Christian or another path by reworking their stories into a narrative which helps them understand something, sort of like feeding someone "soul food", does that make sense?


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Re: I reject religion [Re: Lucis]
    #28281414 - 04/16/23 11:54 PM (9 months, 7 days ago)

Building a narrative catered around someone's specific religiosity isn't appealing to me.

If someone only liked Japanese food I'd be g with that, but trying to express messages through a specific religious framing just appears needy or coddled to me.

And frankly I'm not attracted to that sort of mindset either :shrug:


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Re: I reject religion [Re: Lucis]
    #28281542 - 04/17/23 04:45 AM (9 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Lucis said:
...

What I was saying is that even if you weren't Christian but knew a lot about Christianity or some other religion or myth, tale, legend,, etc, then you might be able to help others through a tough time who are Christian or another path by reworking their stories into a narrative which helps them understand something, sort of like feeding someone "soul food", does that make sense?




I think this does make sense, if it is possible to engage respectfully without seeming to be an imposter.

in other words, making an effort to feel the other person's pain the best way you can, to better understand, which naturally would include some measure of understanding culture and religion.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: Lucis]
    #28282352 - 04/17/23 04:26 PM (9 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Lucis said:

Many Disney movies teach children lessons yet we see those same lessons being taught in a different way other than the childish ways that certain cartoons present them. 




:thumbup:

From Star Wars to The Big Lebowski to The Matrix


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Re: I reject religion [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28286601 - 04/20/23 10:06 AM (9 months, 4 days ago)

Its nice to see nearly everyone still here and still all in the same good spirits.  ; )

If we spend a lot of time convincing ourselves that something is true or not true... does that mean we are afraid it is what we hope it is not?


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Re: I reject religion [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28286604 - 04/20/23 10:09 AM (9 months, 4 days ago)

well it is a familiar table around which to have a few drinks and morsels of blood or bread


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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28286726 - 04/20/23 12:03 PM (9 months, 4 days ago)

Religion keeps people from knowing the causal agent responsible for the formation of the universe.

The Masons don't actually know stone masonry anymore, but there are a few masons that know stonework.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28287191 - 04/20/23 06:22 PM (9 months, 3 days ago)

When the first pro-Christian argument in this entire thread is literally Pascal's wager all over again, well... it makes contemporary followers of Abrahamic religions look incredibly lazy.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: jomanda1990]
    #28287320 - 04/20/23 08:09 PM (9 months, 3 days ago)

I think anyone reading that can see it was neither pascal's wager nor a pro-Christian argument. It was a Freudian question about insecurity, from a Christian. There is a difference : ) 

But...

I didn't notice anyone defending their atheistic belief against the dangers of Native American polytheism, or of the brujería religions, the Greek or Egyptian pantheons, or the African spiritism.

Seems to me that most people don't really have an anti-religious bias as much as anger against Christians.

But now I would like to make the first pro-Christian argument in this thread: If you have been hurt by people claiming to be Christians, it wasn't right, and I'm sorry you were hurt.

Groups of people being mean or stupid will rally under any banner, and that is the sort of thing that Yeshua Hamashiach came to abolish. It wasn't right, and in humility, I remove my hat in respect, and offer you my most sincere apology.

I think there are more spiritual seekers in an anti-religion thread than in the average church.

(EDIT: "athiestic faith" changed to "athiestic belief")


Edited by Moses_Davidson (04/21/23 07:24 AM)


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Re: I reject religion [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28287339 - 04/20/23 08:26 PM (9 months, 3 days ago)

a few Christians give other Christians a bad reputation, and set a bad example for the next generation.
turning the other cheek does not seem to be helping.
We could use more god fearing athiests to turn this around.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28287359 - 04/20/23 08:36 PM (9 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
We could use more god fearing athiests to turn this around.




: )

I could not agree with you more.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: Moses_Davidson] * 1
    #28287525 - 04/21/23 12:15 AM (9 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
I didn't notice anyone defending their atheistic faith against the dangers of Native American polytheism, or of the brujería religions, the Greek or Egyptian pantheons, or the African spiritism.

Seems to me that most people don't really have an anti-religious bias as much as anger against Christians.





Most people here interact mostly with Christians due to regional circumstances. So there's that. I can confidently guarantee every atheist in the world will think that all of those religions you mentioned are also bull, but why discuss them if they are hardly even around? I personally hold that irrationality in all its forms is dangerous.

Also in my eyes your apology is diluted by the use of the cheeky phrasing "atheistic faith," as if a lack of a belief can somehow be twisted to mean "faith in a different proposition." But I think we may just have different definitions for the word.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: jomanda1990]
    #28287653 - 04/21/23 05:49 AM (9 months, 3 days ago)



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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28287768 - 04/21/23 07:42 AM (9 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

jomanda1990 said:


Also in my eyes your apology is diluted by the use of the cheeky phrasing "atheistic faith," as if a lack of a belief can somehow be twisted to mean "faith in a different proposition."




The apology is entirely sincere, but you're right a cheeky comment has no place in an apology. It has been edited and removed.

But since you bring up the topic of faith... as repugnant as the idea is to me, I still had to have a great deal of faith when I held athiestic beliefs. The particularly troubling part to me that made me squirm was the Goldilocks problem regarding the laws of nature in our universe. Of course, the answer to the Goldilocks problem (of our universe being such a perfect balance that if any of a high amount of variables/constants were modified, then life would not be possible) is the multiverse. Our universe is not special at all as long as there were numerous chances for it to happen to have landed as it did, and that a nearly infinite number of universes exist outside of our universe. When one honestly examines the Goldilocks problem, the multiverse is really the only other explanation that makes any sense.

But coming back to science, I'd really prefer something that we can test.

Anytime we are creating untestable concepts of how the universe began, outside of the laws of nature, this sort of supernatural discussion is inherently in the realm of faith and religion-- not of science.

The fact that half of all published (testable) research is wrong is disconcerting to me as an academic researcher... so I think one can't really take any position on untestable ideas without a degree of faith.

It seems to me that if someone wishes to rest in the comfort of science (my preference) that the only truly faithless creed is agnosticism.

I asked an agnostic if he agreed with any of this and he told me he wasn't sure.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28287790 - 04/21/23 07:50 AM (9 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
...

I asked an agnostic if he agreed with any of this and he told me he wasn't sure.




hahaha!

the most stunning thing about existence is that we can imagine the opposite.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28287844 - 04/21/23 08:25 AM (9 months, 3 days ago)

Here is one (of several) examples of a researcher dealing with one (of several) aspect of the Goldilocks problem in astrophysics. It also plagues other things such as subatomic particle research with all of its super-symmetry, and this is a popular current topic in academic research.

If you like to follow white rabbits,...

Garaldi, E., Compostella, M., & Porciani, C. (2019). The Goldilocks problem of the quasar contribution to reionization. Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society, 483(4), 5301-5314.

There are an awful lot of articles out there dealing with the Goldilocks problem. As you get into it, you'll see that each field uses its own terminology to address the same basic problem. So searching for "Goldilocks problem" in the scientific literature is more of an on-ramp to begin reading about this deep subject than a comprehensive presentation of all known examples.

Another thing that I researched quite a bit to support my beliefs as an athiest was abiogenesis. Just about any biologist will tell you that we are are getting closer in closer to replicating life in the lab. With the synthesis of amino acids into cell-like lipid capsules using early-earth conditions, and with advances in genetic research, we are finding more and more support for agiogenesis. The problem is that the biologists who don't share this degree of confidence are those actually on the front lines doing this research. If you do a cursory search of the published academic research on this subject, you'll see that these researchers are saying something very different about their progress.

Here is a very un-religious published paper from this year that should give you an informative snapshot of some current discussion among scientists:

Whitmire, D. P. (2023). Abiogenesis: the Carter argument reconsidered. International Journal of Astrobiology, 22(2), 94-99.

I don't think this guy is an idiot who is fighting imaginary shadows. He is defending abiogenesis itself because it is necessary to defend it in light of the lack of progress from the abiogenesis researchers.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28287891 - 04/21/23 09:13 AM (9 months, 3 days ago)

abiogenesis seemed to me to be fact since I was about 11yrs old.
I just called it phospholipid bubbles with a little bit extra.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28288059 - 04/21/23 11:31 AM (9 months, 3 days ago)

I think I understand your position, but I don't think I'll ever accept the massive leap from "I cannot explain the present circumstances" to "This specific religion must surely be right". It's just the 'God of the gaps' fallacy with extra steps in a random direction. Not at all suitable for the rational.

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
abiogenesis seemed to me to be fact since I was about 11yrs old.
I just called it phospholipid bubbles with a little bit extra.




Ditto, it's simply evolution using simpler chemicals rather than already complex living organisms. They are quite literally the same rules.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28288065 - 04/21/23 11:35 AM (9 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:

I didn't notice anyone defending their atheistic belief against the dangers of Native American polytheism, or of the brujería religions, the Greek or Egyptian pantheons, or the African spiritism.




I agree with the post about it being a regional thing.  For example, many modern day Americans are very angry and upset about US slavery in the 1700's yet these people are apathetic about the slavery that exists today in other places of the world.

BTW, I'm always suspicious of people who are much angrier about what happened 200 years ago than what is happening today.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28288070 - 04/21/23 11:39 AM (9 months, 3 days ago)

oppressive religions and societies are have large invasive populations.

like rats just bigger


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OfflineSvetaketu
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Re: I reject religion [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28288445 - 04/21/23 03:09 PM (9 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
Here is one (of several) examples of a researcher dealing with one (of several) aspect of the Goldilocks problem in astrophysics. It also plagues other things such as subatomic particle research with all of its super-symmetry, and this is a popular current topic in academic research.

If you like to follow white rabbits,...

Garaldi, E., Compostella, M., & Porciani, C. (2019). The Goldilocks problem of the quasar contribution to reionization. Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society, 483(4), 5301-5314.





I don't know why I tried to read this, I'm no astrophysicist, but it seemed to be entirely about quasars and investigating how much ionizing radiation they create.

Which part of this is a good example of the "goldilocks problem"?

As you've described the problem, it seems imaginary. The cosmos is capable of supporting life, and we do our best to describe how.

If it wasn't capable of supporting life, we wouldn't be here to attempt to describe it.

If the cosmos was different then it is, there might be no life, or there might be different life, based on principles we cannot comprehend. We really have no way of investigating how unlikely or likely our specific arrangement is.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: Svetaketu]
    #28288595 - 04/21/23 04:09 PM (9 months, 2 days ago)

I'm not sure it could be different than what it is


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Re: I reject religion [Re: Svetaketu]
    #28289197 - 04/21/23 10:27 PM (9 months, 2 days ago)

There so many exoplanets in goldilocks zone it's almost inevitable some bacteria like stuff exists out there, it happened here so more than 0% chance. And with billions of planets it's surprised me anyone would say there isn't likely to be life elsewhere in some form, especially with all the amino acids for life in space rocks too.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28289384 - 04/22/23 04:37 AM (9 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
We could use more god fearing athiests to turn this around.




: )

I could not agree with you more.




I can't quite identity wholeheartedly with any one particular group or set of beliefs that've been wound up into the universal arena.  Reality, if when likened to the sky, in so far as I can tell - doesn't matter or mind wrt our species' myriad beliefs. 
People, on the other hand, some, sometimes do, some, sometimes don't.

Also, so far I've yet to observe anyone being smited out of existence for believing or unbelieving anything or anyway in particular - nor have I've yet to observe anything that could be contrived as divine intervention.  With that said, none of it is to take away (as if I could) from the natural "World's" magnificence- as we can / may know it.  Imho&e, oftentimes enough it's so naturally marvelous it's blinding.






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Edited by The Blind Ass (04/22/23 05:13 AM)


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Re: I reject religion [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28289421 - 04/22/23 05:53 AM (9 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
...  Imho&e, oftentimes enough it's so naturally marvelous it's blinding.





ya.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28289445 - 04/22/23 06:38 AM (9 months, 2 days ago)

"I've yet to observe anyone being smited out of existence for believing or unbelieving anything or anyway in particular"

Perhaps about station, value to the marketplace, expressed in the gross level with money, in the emotional, mental the value is helpfulness, or the fruit, joy, contentment.

I think it removes conflict just to call God a quality like contentment. Then why call it God? Because its deeper than we know, but don't have to.

Could call it, Hiranyagarbha (the golden embryo), the sun.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: syncro]
    #28290149 - 04/22/23 04:14 PM (9 months, 1 day ago)

The Sun is the sun and is foundational to our natural world.

What are you trying to make of it with hiranyagarbha?


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28290198 - 04/22/23 04:30 PM (9 months, 1 day ago)

cunnilingus


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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28290231 - 04/22/23 04:38 PM (9 months, 1 day ago)

Fa la la la la la la la lacio!


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28290322 - 04/22/23 05:29 PM (9 months, 1 day ago)

Are y'all okay? I just used a Sanskrit term of the sun. :lol: As a personage he is Suryadev. Now go thank him for the light.

:no::yes:


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Re: I reject religion [Re: syncro]
    #28290332 - 04/22/23 05:32 PM (9 months, 1 day ago)

It is uneccesary imo to split the Sun into the Sun and the Sun god, because the Sun is the one and only foundation of the natural world.

The terms you use are unnecessarily splitting hairs imo.

The Sun isn't a he or a she, it is the Sun and I am grateful for it every day.

The Sun provide the light to feed our plants, to spur the climate cycles and to disrupt our DNA to form cancer. The Sun provides all that we need, for better and worse.

The Sun does not require or ask for anything, it does not need praise or devotion. It merely receives my appreciation for all it does.

I acknowledge the Sun, and am grateful for it, but I do not worship it.


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Edited by sudly (04/22/23 05:38 PM)


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28290948 - 04/23/23 07:15 AM (9 months, 1 day ago)

That something needs praise or devotion for itself is not correct in terms of worship, which is in principle acknowledging and receiving like you are doing. Or service. If you could serve the sun, would you? I think appreciation is service, for one. Maybe the sun does need service, as appreciation is spreading its benefit in terms of being aware of it which is a thing of awe, the source of life in this system.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: syncro]
    #28291006 - 04/23/23 07:57 AM (9 months, 1 day ago)

gravity and planetary revolution, radiance and dissipation, all pretty godly with halos and rainbows - as above and so below.

have another corona!


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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28291210 - 04/23/23 10:13 AM (9 months, 1 day ago)

No please no more coronas :sad:


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Re: I reject religion [Re: syncro]
    #28291633 - 04/23/23 03:18 PM (9 months, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
That something needs praise or devotion for itself is not correct in terms of worship, which is in principle acknowledging and receiving like you are doing. Or service. If you could serve the sun, would you? I think appreciation is service, for one. Maybe the sun does need service, as appreciation is spreading its benefit in terms of being aware of it which is a thing of awe, the source of life in this system.




Hell fuck no, I ain't no simp for the Sun, and the Sun doesn't need service either.

It don't need shit, it just do what it do and I'm grateful for it.

Serve the Sun? That's batshit man.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: burntkitty]
    #28296202 - 04/26/23 01:03 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

burntkitty said:
I enjoy a good fable though. I would be to led to believe god is the devil(you know the real monotheism). I couldn't accept god the baby killer. Life is just amazing though, it's not crazy to think something could come and resurrect your ass so you could pay your dues




people have an internalized prejudicial concepts about G-d being a deity, that they find unrelatable!

i think partially because of the idea of a reckoning!


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Re: I reject religion [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #28296594 - 04/26/23 06:35 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

At this point I think God has every right to do a do over and start from scratch. lol


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Re: I reject religion [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #28296619 - 04/26/23 06:58 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
Quote:

burntkitty said:
I enjoy a good fable though. I would be to led to believe god is the devil(you know the real monotheism). I couldn't accept god the baby killer. Life is just amazing though, it's not crazy to think something could come and resurrect your ass so you could pay your dues




people have an internalized prejudicial concepts about G-d being a deity, that they find unrelatable!

i think partially because of the idea of a reckoning!




No doubt, fucking hypocrits if you ask me. In hell though everyone will lose their faith in anything. I like anne rice's view on the devil though. It makes more sense than anything I've read else where. Still I don't believe. A view is if there where it wasn't suppose to be gossiped about.


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Hating America doesn't make one racist, it probably means they're the complete opposite. That's not it's name pilgrim

Shia wang a genius he just kept showing his soft til the paparazzi stopped following

Thought capitalism was suppose to stop these soviet union lines

If you give me herpes, Ill give you AIDs

What kind of sickness do they have for wanting the creative not creative. I can only imagine it's satanism


Edited by burntkitty (04/26/23 06:58 PM)


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Re: I reject religion [Re: thetruthsohelp]
    #28296649 - 04/26/23 07:13 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

thetruthsohelp said:
At this point I think God has every right to do a do over and start from scratch. lol



funny


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Re: I reject religion [Re: thetruthsohelp]
    #28296712 - 04/26/23 07:37 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

thetruthsohelp said:
At this point I think God has every right to do a do over and start from scratch. lol




Another flood for the masses.

Anyway, isn't the story of Jesus about a bastard who's mum took a creampie from some other lad then lied about a virgin birth to cover up and she was too deep in to turn back?

That's how I see it nowadays.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28296795 - 04/26/23 08:13 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

i'd say most people back then were super gullible, but I don't think we are much better overall nowadays


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Re: I reject religion [Re: burntkitty]
    #28296993 - 04/26/23 10:53 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

burntkitty said:
Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
Quote:

burntkitty said:
I enjoy a good fable though. I would be to led to believe god is the devil(you know the real monotheism). I couldn't accept god the baby killer. Life is just amazing though, it's not crazy to think something could come and resurrect your ass so you could pay your dues




people have an internalized prejudicial concepts about G-d being a deity, that they find unrelatable!

i think partially because of the idea of a reckoning!




No doubt, fucking hypocrits if you ask me. In hell though everyone will lose their faith in anything. I like anne rice's view on the devil though. It makes more sense than anything I've read else where. Still I don't believe. A view is if there where it wasn't suppose to be gossiped about.



What is Anne Rice's view on the devil?


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Re: I reject religion [Re: burntkitty] * 1
    #28297123 - 04/27/23 02:33 AM (8 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

burntkitty said:
Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
Quote:

burntkitty said:
I enjoy a good fable though. I would be to led to believe god is the devil(you know the real monotheism). I couldn't accept god the baby killer. Life is just amazing though, it's not crazy to think something could come and resurrect your ass so you could pay your dues




people have an internalized prejudicial concepts about G-d being a deity, that they find unrelatable!

i think partially because of the idea of a reckoning!




No doubt, fucking hypocrits if you ask me. In hell though everyone will lose their faith in anything. I like anne rice's view on the devil though. It makes more sense than anything I've read else where. Still I don't believe. A view is if there where it wasn't suppose to be gossiped about.




hell is a place where one is eternally separated from G-d!

bc of free will, this cld be on earth!


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Re: I reject religion [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #28297135 - 04/27/23 02:56 AM (8 months, 28 days ago)

Jim Jones & Ron Hubbard &  Bonnie Nettles and Marshall Applewhite all had the right idea, either fleece the suckers, get them to commit suicide, or murder them.

Just getting others to subscribe to a belief system, or pet theory pales by comparison, to exercising the true joy of feeling one has great power and insight over vast numbers of other half awake primates.

Then again lots of folks settle for trying to force their kids to play football, take over the family business, or marry someone they approve of. Whatever little power you can muster always improves everything.


Edited by laughingdog (04/27/23 03:09 AM)


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Re: I reject religion [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #28299449 - 04/28/23 11:29 PM (8 months, 26 days ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
Quote:

burntkitty said:
Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
Quote:

burntkitty said:
I enjoy a good fable though. I would be to led to believe god is the devil(you know the real monotheism). I couldn't accept god the baby killer. Life is just amazing though, it's not crazy to think something could come and resurrect your ass so you could pay your dues




people have an internalized prejudicial concepts about G-d being a deity, that they find unrelatable!

i think partially because of the idea of a reckoning!




No doubt, fucking hypocrits if you ask me. In hell though everyone will lose their faith in anything. I like anne rice's view on the devil though. It makes more sense than anything I've read else where. Still I don't believe. A view is if there where it wasn't suppose to be gossiped about.




hell is a place where one is eternally separated from G-d!

bc of free will, this cld be on earth!



I think Hell is when one is totally devoid of their being or honest will..


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Re: I reject religion [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #28299576 - 04/29/23 04:59 AM (8 months, 26 days ago)

is it important to think of hell for any reason in particular? I cannot think of one.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28299886 - 04/29/23 10:41 AM (8 months, 26 days ago)

for the hell of it! :cheers:


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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28300207 - 04/29/23 05:14 PM (8 months, 25 days ago)

bc matter is not all that is!


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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28301682 - 04/30/23 10:35 PM (8 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
is it important to think of hell for any reason in particular? I cannot think of one.



You get what you put into it!


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Re: I reject religion [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #28301683 - 04/30/23 10:36 PM (8 months, 24 days ago)

Imagine a person always gets what they put into it..

So suffering is like an investment..

The deeper the pain/ suffering.. the greater the overall benefit!


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Re: I reject religion [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #28301822 - 05/01/23 05:18 AM (8 months, 24 days ago)

how does that work?
I mean it sounds superficially good, like "no pain no gain", (which I never bought into,) as if the wrong feature of a working system were identified as most critical for developing health from regular exercise.
wrong...
pain alerts that this part of the routine is causing damage to tissue.
find another way.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28302932 - 05/01/23 11:39 PM (8 months, 23 days ago)

The connection between putting effort into aerobics, yoga, weightlifting etc.. has been proven..

But now I think of all the things I overcame since my dark night of the soul..

At the end of the day I'm about 80% in tact.. but I started at 0

Also I do believe people should be able to choose how and why and if they want to suffer and when and how..

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" is always a great one to quote..


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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28329549 - 05/22/23 06:22 AM (8 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
is it important to think of hell for any reason in particular? I cannot think of one.




Yes, it's important to think about it as the lingering reality that awaits those who knowingly reject a righteous and just God.

If hell isn't a real place, then it isn't of any significance, and not worth another thought

If however, it is real, and it's also very easy to avoid, is it a good idea to take a gamble on? It's a terrible place to be spending an eternity in, and people don't like thinking about it because it's unpleasant. Our brains like excitement, fun and entertainment, so thinking of hell is the opposite of that. We take steps to make sure we're not going to think about a place like it.

Here's an interesting thought: What does the Bible say to do, to make it into Heaven?

-If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. -Romans 10:9

But oh, my, that doesn't sound too hard, right? ...Considering what's at stake.

But hey, what about all of that hard stuff like being a 'good person', or earning our way into Heaven? Well, that's complete rubbish. The Bible explains in great detail that we cannot earn our way in. Heaven is not like earth, where people work for things.

It's a gift that's given to everybody. All people are offered a free ticket into heaven, even all the bad people (offered, but not always accepted by the person). Because God is fully capable of turning lives around, and giving people a fresh start. This is where God's unconditional love is seen, love that's much stronger than any human love, which cannot forgive everything. But God sent Jesus to the earth, in order to experience all of our pain and sufferings, after which He would be perfectly equipped to judge us, having experienced everything that we have. As far as i'm concerned, if there's any possibility of hell (separation from God forever), and if it's as simple to avoid as believing in Jesus, God's son, then i'll take the risk of believing in Him for my short life on earth, so that my life in eternity has a chance

Why trust the Bible? Is it even historically accurate? Well, many scholars and historians have proven it to be so, including also a journalist, Lee Strobel, who developed a case for Christ, just as a lawyer would do, considering every piece of evidence. There are far too many points of evidence that are overlooked because people are unwilling to consider the possibility, sometimes because of prejudice and bias. We work hard to develop our world views, and changes shake us up a bit. So fools don't go through the hard work of reconsidering and looking at evidence, because that means letting go of previously leaqrned and believed concepts. I don't want to expand any further on what i've said, unless people reply and are interested to hear more. The direction of the conversation is uncertain


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Re: I reject religion [Re: van0014]
    #28329791 - 05/22/23 10:45 AM (8 months, 3 days ago)

it's manipulative, making people into megaphones of a jesus message


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Re: I reject religion [Re: van0014]
    #28330052 - 05/22/23 02:22 PM (8 months, 3 days ago)

Put some garlic on your door if you want excitement, just incase there are vampires.

If there's no garlic on your door, I think your talk of hell is hella hypocritical.:shrug:


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28330181 - 05/22/23 03:53 PM (8 months, 2 days ago)

That would make sense if there was no evidence, however, there is a lot that can be overlooked. I'll start by loosely associating things that we know of, instead of going down the history lesson path

There's 7 days in the week. Why? Because God made the world in 6 days, and on the 7th day He rested. And so we have a 7 day week

What happened 2023 years ago? Why does our calendar start when Jesus lived among us? There's at least 4,000 more years of human history. But Jesus was significant enough that our calendar was reset, based on His life

Blood moon? Mentioned in the Bible. Rainbow? Mentioned. The symbol used today for medicine, with a snake around a staff? Mentioned. Whoever looked at Moses' staff was healed during the time when God made it so. (not just any staff with a snake can heal. Moses was chosen to hold it). Total eclipse? Also mentioned, as well as earthquakes, famines, plagues, thunder, lightning, ect.

What other religion exists that incorporates credible information about human history and existence?

What about the temple in Jerusalem? It's right where it's supposed to be. And Babylon? Not there, just as it has been written. There is even archaeological evidence of Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed by intense heat, which has been described as an airburst event by scientists.

How much historical evidence is needed, before these things are considered as being possible? Jordan Peterson, a psychologist, has realised the reality of these things, and he is predisposed to want to find out what's true in this world, considering in detail, the makeup of our minds. Our purpose for existence, and meaning.

I am saying these things to show that there is more to consider here than garlic


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Re: I reject religion [Re: van0014]
    #28330214 - 05/22/23 04:14 PM (8 months, 2 days ago)

Stop cherry picking the bible and go kill children who make fun of bald men. Don't be hypocritical.

Jesus was just a man.

There is no evidence outside of that.

A rainbow was mentioned in the bible.. holy shit. Wow. That's the lowest standard of proof I've ever had someone admit to.

But you've done it, congrats.
:themoreyouknow:


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28330238 - 05/22/23 04:30 PM (8 months, 2 days ago)

There were 5,000 witnesses to Jesus' resurrection, and Roman history corroborates the evidence in the Bible. Many don't know it, but these things have already been independantly verified. It is not a mere coincidence that the Christian Bible is overflowing with historical facts. No other Bible has such a good track record (outside of general rumours, within the realm of intelligent, unbiased consideration). I say this not to annoy anybody, but for the purpose of the debate. But all to often, people see information without considering it. Because it's unfamiliar to them.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: van0014]
    #28330277 - 05/22/23 05:02 PM (8 months, 2 days ago)

Says the book? Then kill some kids ya cherry pickin hypocrite.


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Edited by sudly (05/22/23 05:18 PM)


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28330299 - 05/22/23 05:26 PM (8 months, 2 days ago)

Certainly the reader of anything must be the arbiter, and useful things are found among the unuseful.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: syncro]
    #28330308 - 05/22/23 05:33 PM (8 months, 2 days ago)

It sounds to me like you're advocating for cherry picking..
:wtf3:

Cherry picking from the bible and holding what you've selected on a pedestal over all the other unselected shmuk is incredibly hypocritical.

If you want to say you like the lesson from one paragraph about bein nice to your neighbour, but you don't agree with the one about killing kids who made fun of hair loss, that's okay.

But if you thereafter start claiming the whole book is of truth, you are fooling yourself and putting your flagrant hypocrisy on clear display.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28330321 - 05/22/23 05:47 PM (8 months, 2 days ago)

It's strange how the thinks I speak of are not contested directly. I have showed that even the Romans knew what really happened, and they kept a record of it. But it's convenient to ignore all of my evidence


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Re: I reject religion [Re: van0014]
    #28330328 - 05/22/23 05:51 PM (8 months, 2 days ago)

You haven't shown shit other than your cherry picking hypocritical approach to religious texts.

Making claims about the truths of the bible requires specificity, not broad brush strokes of claims to truth.

Someone saw a rainbow once is a bullshit defense of the bibles claim to accurate representation of truth given our modern understandings of how the environment interacts.

Quote:

Sudly said: any attempt to draw specific parallels between religious texts and scientific theories is still misguided.

While it's possible that some aspects of religious texts were based on observation and reason, it's important to remember that these texts were written in a very different cultural and intellectual context. The authors of religious texts were not operating within a scientific framework and did not have access to the vast amount of knowledge and evidence that we have today.

Furthermore, even if some aspects of religious texts do reflect observations of the natural world, they are often presented in a highly symbolic and metaphorical way that is not intended to be taken literally. Trying to draw specific parallels between religious texts and modern scientific understandings risks oversimplifying and distorting both the texts and the science.

In short, while it's possible to find some similarities between religious texts and scientific theories, it's important to be cautious and avoid making overextended claims that are not supported by evidence or reason.




Quote:

Sudly said: It's important to recognize that religious texts are not scientific texts and were not written with the purpose of describing the origins of the universe and life in a scientifically accurate way. While they may contain some descriptions of creation events, these should not be taken as literal, scientific accounts. Rather, they should be understood in the cultural and historical context in which they were written, and should be interpreted with caution and humility, recognizing their limitations and the vast amount of knowledge and evidence that we have gained through scientific inquiry.




Just tell me you do not claim that religious texts provide a detailed or accurate account of the origins of the universe and life. Save yourself.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28330342 - 05/22/23 06:07 PM (8 months, 2 days ago)

"cherry picking"

Could do the same thing with science then which has erred.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: syncro]
    #28330349 - 05/22/23 06:15 PM (8 months, 2 days ago)

You're right though because we're not claiming all of science is accurate. But who doesn't toss out scripture that implies doing harm?


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Re: I reject religion [Re: van0014]
    #28330421 - 05/22/23 07:26 PM (8 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

van0014 said:
That would make sense if there was no evidence, however, there is a lot that can be overlooked. I'll start by loosely associating things that we know of, instead of going down the history lesson path

There's 7 days in the week. Why? Because God made the world in 6 days, and on the 7th day He rested. And so we have a 7 day week

What happened 2023 years ago? Why does our calendar start when Jesus lived among us? There's at least 4,000 more years of human history. But Jesus was significant enough that our calendar was reset, based on His life

Blood moon? Mentioned in the Bible. Rainbow? Mentioned. The symbol used today for medicine, with a snake around a staff? Mentioned. Whoever looked at Moses' staff was healed during the time when God made it so. (not just any staff with a snake can heal. Moses was chosen to hold it). Total eclipse? Also mentioned, as well as earthquakes, famines, plagues, thunder, lightning, ect.

What other religion exists that incorporates credible information about human history and existence?

What about the temple in Jerusalem? It's right where it's supposed to be. And Babylon? Not there, just as it has been written. There is even archaeological evidence of Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed by intense heat, which has been described as an airburst event by scientists.

How much historical evidence is needed, before these things are considered as being possible? Jordan Peterson, a psychologist, has realised the reality of these things, and he is predisposed to want to find out what's true in this world, considering in detail, the makeup of our minds. Our purpose for existence, and meaning.

I am saying these things to show that there is more to consider here than garlic





  I recommend looking at the points you've just listed and try to come up with a number of potentially feasible answers -ie- reasonably sound explanations, by that I mean so if you had to you could show your work for how you arrived where you did and if it is consistently found that others arrive repeatedly at, near, or far from the same conclusion you've come to, if needed. 

Take the Calendar for instance. 

What things could have been in play that allowed for the existence of any number of them?  You listed 1.  The Gregorian - as evidence? Hmmm....Idk.  Explain?  That seems so flimsy to me I'd rather you'd put forth that the Earth is only a few thousand years old. 


I take it as evidence of your bias, perhaps, of simply not having read or learned from someone willing to entertain otherwise / so long as they can show their work...right? 

Certainly not evidence for much of what you claim it to be for...but for other reasons, yeah, for sure. 

For one it was agreed upon by men for conveniently aligning with both serving as a rough organizing principle for guiding men dwelling in ignorance a means of operating productively amidst the fear of unknowing and confusion that comes with the experience of being an embodied sentient being habituating to a still evolving  environment- one that can kill you in more ways than I can imagine- I mean, the notion, let alone the instruments necessary for a glimpse of Earth from afar, wasn't exactly easiest or the coolest of things to get on about at the dinner table before the Calander...and the Clock....really, even after those it took a while.  :sadyes:

Anywho.  Now you can catch glimpses of the nearby "celestial body of friends" (:stoned:) move ever so fantastically like organic-inorganic-ai-controlled-planet ships sailing through space-time. :rocket:

Experiment:

Just take away the gregorian or w/e calendar-concept/construct the whole schema and timeliness of order from it in your imagination for a week and go without looking at any numbers for that duration and see what happens.  No time devices for a "week"- and you're dropped on an island in the middle of the night while sedated before it starts-  Who wants to give it a shot?  :lol:

Would you even know when a week had even passed? 
Assuming you could observe and count to measure how many times it looked like the sun had gone around the world and back again?  See the issues coming up already?  The misperception leading to heliocentricity gets in a dirty jab to the gut and suddenly this philosophical experiment has you landed on the street homeless because you miscalculated so badly you didn't show up to work for 3 weeks.  :picard:

It follows the trend of the human mind with regards to approximate some semblance of balance with the many recurring, cyclic, concentric- natural phenomena by allowing for greater potential as to recording, measuring, and other forms and methods of examining what is in us and around us in varied expressions as to classify per particularity/specificity/uniqueness/similarity/shared-traits etc... to bit by bit attempt to dwindle down a small slice of a fraction of a perfect of what's potentially knowable by distinguishing things according to an imagined yet (near) objectively shared system of measure.

Why?  Idk exactly. Hardly a clue. But I do have fun learning the Hows and the Whats and Whens and Wheres and then imagining the countless reasons and possibilities.  The Universe has this permeating scent that smells so deep and I love sniffing up the stuff but if I go overboard I start to see entities and shit and then I start wondering if hallucinations are actually really real and not simple hyper-salient illusions/delusions, like dreams.

After a time I generally come back to my senses.

What happens upon realizing before the senses finish greeting me that i'd never left in the first place?  B/c there's no going or returning.  Hence,

> a blind ass. :sadyes:
 


So how could an entity that only you can perceive that only appears intrasubjectively(sp? ~ like dreaming, only the dreamer can perceive it, although it isn't anything but illusion-delusion to begin with), while simultaneously being paradoxically absent to all other observing parties...regardless of any and all attempts to confirm a measuring of it in any / by any quantifiable ways and means so as to signify whether there is, or is not, in fact, an entity actually existing presently as occupying space-time?

Hmmm...how could that, which I perceive suddenly now as being in front of me as if anything else in the environment is when before my very eyes- how can it be that-that entity cannot even appear reflected for others to see if they'd but look upon the surface of my own eye while I turn my eyes upon it so that they can "see it" too? 

Try it.  See what happens.  :shrug:

Gnome sayin?


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Re: I reject religion [Re: syncro]
    #28330473 - 05/22/23 08:24 PM (8 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
"cherry picking"

Could do the same thing with science then which has erred.

You're right though because we're not claiming all of science is accurate. But who doesn't toss out scripture that implies doing harm?




Flagrant bullshitery is harm in my book, and like I said, I think any attempt to draw specific parallels between religious texts and scientific theories is misguided.

I am accusing van of cherry picking biblical scripture to attempt to draw parrelels between it and modern knowledge within a scientific framework.

What are you accusing me of cherry picking? Or do you admit your statement regarding it is a misnomer.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28330735 - 05/23/23 03:25 AM (8 months, 2 days ago)

You were saying by believing in X, we need to agree with killing children, not just the science parallels.

You seem to want to dismiss all of religion or Christianity if there are some things in them that should be, and I'm wondering what could we keep of use by that standard.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: syncro]
    #28330801 - 05/23/23 05:31 AM (8 months, 2 days ago)

Something like religion is excellent for social assembly which includes: weddings, births, deaths, seasons, + why not add voting, changes of regime, the first launching of modes of transport (even cars and scooters, and the construction and demolition of buildings.

in the minimum, a moment of silence
, possibly some frankincense and myrrh, drumming and humming, who knows. Variation in the traditions can keep it vital, stagnation and tribalism is not very good.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: van0014]
    #28330993 - 05/23/23 09:32 AM (8 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

van0014 said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
is it important to think of hell for any reason in particular? I cannot think of one.




Yes, it's important to think about it as the lingering reality that awaits those who knowingly reject a righteous and just God.

If hell isn't a real place, then it isn't of any significance, and not worth another thought

If however, it is real, and it's also very easy to avoid, is it a good idea to take a gamble on? It's a terrible place to be spending an eternity in, and people don't like thinking about it because it's unpleasant. Our brains like excitement, fun and entertainment, so thinking of hell is the opposite of that. We take steps to make sure we're not going to think about a place like it.






If everything is arising from a field of consciousness.

If hell were real it would be like wal-mart, if heaven were real it would be like target, both are stores (life experiences) arising from the same field of consciousness and both are offering people what they want but at very different, yet similar, shopping experiences. 

One is not necessarily better than the other, just different sides of the same coin, if you like a wild more hedonistic life then perhaps you choose one over the other, and vice versa.  One manager in one store might badmouth the manager in their rivals store, the customer probably don't see it that way, they're just trying to live and get what they are looking for.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: van0014]
    #28330996 - 05/23/23 09:34 AM (8 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

van0014 said:
There were 5,000 witnesses to Jesus' resurrection, and Roman history corroborates the evidence in the Bible. Many don't know it, but these things have already been independantly verified. It is not a mere coincidence that the Christian Bible is overflowing with historical facts. No other Bible has such a good track record (outside of general rumours, within the realm of intelligent, unbiased consideration). I say this not to annoy anybody, but for the purpose of the debate. But all to often, people see information without considering it. Because it's unfamiliar to them.




why god won't heal amputees dot com says hi... No need to waste time re-debunking the wheel to be honest.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28331001 - 05/23/23 09:38 AM (8 months, 2 days ago)

Rituals enhance social cohesion.  We should appreciate its functional role in the evolution of humans.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28331007 - 05/23/23 09:41 AM (8 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Something like religion is excellent for social assembly which includes: weddings, births, deaths, seasons, + why not add voting, changes of regime, the first launching of modes of transport (even cars and scooters, and the construction and demolition of buildings.

in the minimum, a moment of silence
, possibly some frankincense and myrrh, drumming and humming, who knows. Variation in the traditions can keep it vital, stagnation and tribalism is not very good.




I'm pretty sure the social cohesion brought about by organized religion did ensure long-term early human survival. Although such structured patterns of beliefs and behaviors were indeed beneficial to many societies and civilization in general, I think they have overstayed their welcome. Examples like Bushido in Japan or Confucianism in China spring to mind.

Is rigidity in antique superstitious beliefs ever good in the long run for humankind?


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Re: I reject religion [Re: jomanda1990]
    #28331017 - 05/23/23 09:47 AM (8 months, 2 days ago)

Politics and other mass movements (social justice, climate, etc) is the new religion that binds people together.

Protesting is similar to a church service.  With singing and chanting.

Many people yearn to have a holy cause to believe in.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: jomanda1990]
    #28331091 - 05/23/23 10:54 AM (8 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

jomanda1990 said:
...
Is rigidity in antique superstitious beliefs ever good in the long run for humankind?



probably not, however some standards and recognition are important to formalize with respect to  weddings, births, deaths, seasons, + why not add voting, changes of regime, the first launching of modes of transport (even cars and scooters, and the construction and demolition of buildings


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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28331096 - 05/23/23 11:00 AM (8 months, 2 days ago)

the older i get, the more i see institutionalisation as positive and necessary. my hippie dad was very anti christian but my mother turned to reading the bible in her later life. they are both dead now and after my mum's death i adopted some of the christian mindset. the whole altruism thing can be very valuable if applied correctly.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28331165 - 05/23/23 12:08 PM (8 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
it's manipulative, making people into megaphones of a jesus message



The Bible is not manipulative as you wrongly claim.  It presents itself as a message and instructions from a supernatural being/force to be accepted or rejected as truth.


Quote:

sudly said:
Put some garlic on your door if you want excitement, just incase there are vampires.

If there's no garlic on your door, I think your talk of hell is hella hypocritical.:shrug:



How is van0014 being hypocritical?  Please provide all the facts proving that he is or stop making such stupid claims.


Quote:

van0014 said:
That would make sense if there was no evidence, however, there is a lot that can be overlooked. I'll start by loosely associating things that we know of, instead of going down the history lesson path

There's 7 days in the week. Why? Because God made the world in 6 days, and on the 7th day He rested. And so we have a 7 day week

What happened 2023 years ago? Why does our calendar start when Jesus lived among us? There's at least 4,000 more years of human history. But Jesus was significant enough that our calendar was reset, based on His life

Blood moon? Mentioned in the Bible. Rainbow? Mentioned. The symbol used today for medicine, with a snake around a staff? Mentioned. Whoever looked at Moses' staff was healed during the time when God made it so. (not just any staff with a snake can heal. Moses was chosen to hold it). Total eclipse? Also mentioned, as well as earthquakes, famines, plagues, thunder, lightning, ect.

What other religion exists that incorporates credible information about human history and existence?

What about the temple in Jerusalem? It's right where it's supposed to be. And Babylon? Not there, just as it has been written. There is even archaeological evidence of Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed by intense heat, which has been described as an airburst event by scientists.

How much historical evidence is needed, before these things are considered as being possible? Jordan Peterson, a psychologist, has realised the reality of these things, and he is predisposed to want to find out what's true in this world, considering in detail, the makeup of our minds. Our purpose for existence, and meaning.

I am saying these things to show that there is more to consider here than garlic



You should realize that no one will start believing in God or the Bible with these things you point towards.  This is why the Bible is not full of attempts to convince those that reject the message of the cross with evidence for God's existence.


Quote:

sudly said:
Jesus was just a man.

There is no evidence outside of that.



As someone who comes across as science is truth/knowledge supreme, you sure do fail when making baseless claims.  This statement of yours is nothing but the opinion of a mere mortal that thinks his opinion is fact.


Quote:

van0014 said:
There were 5,000 witnesses to Jesus' resurrection, and Roman history corroborates the evidence in the Bible. Many don't know it, but these things have already been independantly verified. It is not a mere coincidence that the Christian Bible is overflowing with historical facts. No other Bible has such a good track record (outside of general rumours, within the realm of intelligent, unbiased consideration). I say this not to annoy anybody, but for the purpose of the debate. But all to often, people see information without considering it. Because it's unfamiliar to them.



You need to stop presenting these points to someone that clearly reject the Bible as truth.  You are wasting your time van0014.


Quote:

sudly said:
Says the book? Then kill some kids ya cherry pickin hypocrite.



You keep referring to this from the Bible.  I wonder, how did you come to learn of this event told in the Old Testament?


Quote:

syncro said:
You're right though because we're not claiming all of science is accurate. But who doesn't toss out scripture that implies doing harm?



I don't, it's there for a reason.


Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Quote:

van0014 said:
That would make sense if there was no evidence, however, there is a lot that can be overlooked. I'll start by loosely associating things that we know of, instead of going down the history lesson path

There's 7 days in the week. Why? Because God made the world in 6 days, and on the 7th day He rested. And so we have a 7 day week

What happened 2023 years ago? Why does our calendar start when Jesus lived among us? There's at least 4,000 more years of human history. But Jesus was significant enough that our calendar was reset, based on His life

Blood moon? Mentioned in the Bible. Rainbow? Mentioned. The symbol used today for medicine, with a snake around a staff? Mentioned. Whoever looked at Moses' staff was healed during the time when God made it so. (not just any staff with a snake can heal. Moses was chosen to hold it). Total eclipse? Also mentioned, as well as earthquakes, famines, plagues, thunder, lightning, ect.

What other religion exists that incorporates credible information about human history and existence?

What about the temple in Jerusalem? It's right where it's supposed to be. And Babylon? Not there, just as it has been written. There is even archaeological evidence of Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed by intense heat, which has been described as an airburst event by scientists.

How much historical evidence is needed, before these things are considered as being possible? Jordan Peterson, a psychologist, has realised the reality of these things, and he is predisposed to want to find out what's true in this world, considering in detail, the makeup of our minds. Our purpose for existence, and meaning.

I am saying these things to show that there is more to consider here than garlic





  I recommend looking at the points you've just listed and try to come up with a number of potentially feasible answers -ie- reasonably sound explanations, by that I mean so if you had to you could show your work for how you arrived where you did and if it is consistently found that others arrive repeatedly at, near, or far from the same conclusion you've come to, if needed. 

Take the Calendar for instance. 

What things could have been in play that allowed for the existence of any number of them?  You listed 1.  The Gregorian - as evidence? Hmmm....Idk.  Explain?  That seems so flimsy to me I'd rather you'd put forth that the Earth is only a few thousand years old. 


I take it as evidence of your bias, perhaps, of simply not having read or learned from someone willing to entertain otherwise / so long as they can show their work...right? 

Certainly not evidence for much of what you claim it to be for...but for other reasons, yeah, for sure. 

For one it was agreed upon by men for conveniently aligning with both serving as a rough organizing principle for guiding men dwelling in ignorance a means of operating productively amidst the fear of unknowing and confusion that comes with the experience of being an embodied sentient being habituating to a still evolving  environment- one that can kill you in more ways than I can imagine- I mean, the notion, let alone the instruments necessary for a glimpse of Earth from afar, wasn't exactly easiest or the coolest of things to get on about at the dinner table before the Calander...and the Clock....really, even after those it took a while.  :sadyes:

Anywho.  Now you can catch glimpses of the nearby "celestial body of friends" (:stoned:) move ever so fantastically like organic-inorganic-ai-controlled-planet ships sailing through space-time. :rocket:

Experiment:

Just take away the gregorian or w/e calendar-concept/construct the whole schema and timeliness of order from it in your imagination for a week and go without looking at any numbers for that duration and see what happens.  No time devices for a "week"- and you're dropped on an island in the middle of the night while sedated before it starts-  Who wants to give it a shot?  :lol:

Would you even know when a week had even passed? 
Assuming you could observe and count to measure how many times it looked like the sun had gone around the world and back again?  See the issues coming up already?  The misperception leading to heliocentricity gets in a dirty jab to the gut and suddenly this philosophical experiment has you landed on the street homeless because you miscalculated so badly you didn't show up to work for 3 weeks.  :picard:

It follows the trend of the human mind with regards to approximate some semblance of balance with the many recurring, cyclic, concentric- natural phenomena by allowing for greater potential as to recording, measuring, and other forms and methods of examining what is in us and around us in varied expressions as to classify per particularity/specificity/uniqueness/similarity/shared-traits etc... to bit by bit attempt to dwindle down a small slice of a fraction of a perfect of what's potentially knowable by distinguishing things according to an imagined yet (near) objectively shared system of measure.

Why?  Idk exactly. Hardly a clue. But I do have fun learning the Hows and the Whats and Whens and Wheres and then imagining the countless reasons and possibilities.  The Universe has this permeating scent that smells so deep and I love sniffing up the stuff but if I go overboard I start to see entities and shit and then I start wondering if hallucinations are actually really real and not simple hyper-salient illusions/delusions, like dreams.

After a time I generally come back to my senses.

What happens upon realizing before the senses finish greeting me that i'd never left in the first place?  B/c there's no going or returning.  Hence,

> a blind ass. :sadyes:
 


So how could an entity that only you can perceive that only appears intrasubjectively(sp? ~ like dreaming, only the dreamer can perceive it, although it isn't anything but illusion-delusion to begin with), while simultaneously being paradoxically absent to all other observing parties...regardless of any and all attempts to confirm a measuring of it in any / by any quantifiable ways and means so as to signify whether there is, or is not, in fact, an entity actually existing presently as occupying space-time?

Hmmm...how could that, which I perceive suddenly now as being in front of me as if anything else in the environment is when before my very eyes- how can it be that-that entity cannot even appear reflected for others to see if they'd but look upon the surface of my own eye while I turn my eyes upon it so that they can "see it" too? 

Try it.  See what happens.  :shrug:

Gnome sayin?



I've tried to understand what you are saying, but I can't.  Could you in a sentence or two make your point please?


Quote:

jomanda1990 said:
Quote:

van0014 said:
There were 5,000 witnesses to Jesus' resurrection, and Roman history corroborates the evidence in the Bible. Many don't know it, but these things have already been independantly verified. It is not a mere coincidence that the Christian Bible is overflowing with historical facts. No other Bible has such a good track record (outside of general rumours, within the realm of intelligent, unbiased consideration). I say this not to annoy anybody, but for the purpose of the debate. But all to often, people see information without considering it. Because it's unfamiliar to them.




why god won't heal amputees dot com says hi... No need to waste time re-debunking the wheel to be honest.



I'm not interesting in clicking a link, please provide a point and then explain this so called debunking.


Quote:

jomanda1990 said:
Is rigidity in antique superstitious beliefs ever good in the long run for humankind?



Probably not, but the Bible is not superstitious beliefs.  So, what's your point?


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Re: I reject religion [Re: blessed]
    #28331225 - 05/23/23 12:38 PM (8 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

blessed said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
it's manipulative, making people into megaphones of a jesus message



The Bible is not manipulative as you wrongly claim.  It presents itself as a message and instructions from a supernatural being/force to be accepted or rejected as truth.

...



Bless me, while Christianity is manipulative, I should not say the bible is manipulative, (I apologize if I did write that) but I also will not agree that Christianity is the bible (it is a religious organization and federated collection of institutions)
nor will I say that Christianity is what exterminated so many of my historical forbears during the religiously formalized Spanish inquisition of the 15th century, although so many crimes have been deliberately committed in the name of Christianity to so many people of other origins and even to people of the book (the bible).

I must say that the virulent aspects of manipulation in Christianity are many-fold, including the way that you keep changing the subject in order to defend the history of horrors that have been the legacy of your devoted creed.

The bible is one thing, religion is another, and Christianity is something else that is connected to them but neither just one or the other at all, and usually the message is broken.

Until you get it straight, as to what you are talking about and what I am talking about, you really should not be posting here at all where critical thinking can be followed while we share ideas.

The bible is a composite volume, written by people not god's word and not written by jesus either.

The original 5 books themselves are composite and inherited from judaism, the rest of the christian versions of the bible append additional content but also do not embody the entirety of christianity as a recipe or anything other than reference.

Note that Isabella's Spanish Inquisition would not have happened if people (of the christian church) were more capable of independent critical thinking, and neither would have the more recent madness of Hitler's holocaust. Indeed the rise of the christian right wing in support of the disgusting Donald in America is further reason to pause in your blind faith and confused rhetoric of anything remotely related to "christian" forms, objects, ideas, facts, history, propaganda and bullshit.

you must pause here.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: syncro]
    #28331304 - 05/23/23 01:17 PM (8 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
You were saying by believing in X, we need to agree with killing children, not just the science parallels.

You seem to want to dismiss all of religion or Christianity if there are some things in them that should be, and I'm wondering what could we keep of use by that standard.




One can't claim the bible is true, then dismiss that it is when inconvenient such as that 42 children shall be killed for mocking a man for being bald.

Thus it is hypocritical to say the bible is true, but that children should not be killed for mocking bald men. It is selective cherry picking.

I am saying that it is misguided to draw parrelels between the bible and modern understandings of environmental dynamics within a scientific framework.

As I said before, even if some aspects of religious texts do reflect observations of the natural world, they are often presented in a highly symbolic and metaphorical way that is not intended to be taken literally.

While they may contain some descriptions of creation events, these should not be taken as literal, scientific accounts. Rather, they should be understood in the cultural and historical context in which they were written, and should be interpreted with caution and humility, recognising their limitations and the vast amount of knowledge and evidence that we have gained through scientific inquiry.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: blessed]
    #28331313 - 05/23/23 01:22 PM (8 months, 2 days ago)

If your god would send anyone to hell, I wouldn't want to worship such a horribly vile and vindictive piece of shit.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: blessed]
    #28331325 - 05/23/23 01:28 PM (8 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
    You're right though because we're not claiming all of science is accurate. But who doesn't toss out scripture that implies doing harm?

  blessed said:
I don't, it's there for a reason.




I'll meet you half way if there are alternate meanings that may be useful, but offering burnt sacrifice based on the neighbors' behaviors? I'll take an alternate meaning there, but some things just don't stay. I don't know what religions don't carry some kind of idiocy as such, often much older writings I suppose, like the OT.


Edited by syncro (05/23/23 01:33 PM)


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Offlinejomanda1990
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Re: I reject religion [Re: blessed]
    #28331434 - 05/23/23 02:23 PM (8 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

blessed said:

Quote:

jomanda1990 said:

why god won't heal amputees dot com says hi... No need to waste time re-debunking the wheel to be honest.



I'm not interesting in clicking a link, please provide a point and then explain this so called debunking.





Of course you're not interested. I didn't even think for a second you'd bother reading something that doesn't conform to your story. As I said, I see no need to waste my or anyone else's time on people who openly desire to be intellectually stagnant.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28331528 - 05/23/23 03:19 PM (8 months, 1 day ago)

"bible is true"

You're right. I'd go with there are parts of any religion (that I know of) that are unsound, and therefore they are for us to decide upon, cherry picking in the good way I take all day.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28331537 - 05/23/23 03:26 PM (8 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
If your god would send anyone to hell, I wouldn't want to worship such a horribly vile and vindictive piece of shit.




Do you think there should be a justice system in Heaven? If someone is going to live forever, and have the chance to coerce people, should they have a place among those who have been proven to be trustworthy and reliable?

How do you coexist with God if you plan on mocking Him? Hell is the absence of God, in the same way cold doesn't physically exist, it's the absence of heat. And dark doesn't physically exist, it's the absence of light. Therefore hell doesn't exist as an intentional place of torture. It is the absence of God's provisions for you. And while you hate Him, what peace will there be for you both at the dinner table? Or anywhere, as omnicience permits. Therefore a place outside of God is spoken of, as well as a simple solution to avoid it. Commandments have no power for us humans. We can be saved by Jesus only. And He already has conquered death for us, so our souls must live forever, somewhere. Being saved is as simple as acknowledging Jesus as Lord (who is your lord? Yourself? You want to be your own God? What power do you have). And acknowledging He was brought back to life. It is through Him that we also are raised to life. He made a way where there was no way, and that's good news for us


Edited by van0014 (05/23/23 03:30 PM)


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Re: I reject religion [Re: van0014] * 1
    #28331701 - 05/23/23 06:09 PM (8 months, 1 day ago)

I don't hate god, I just avoid people like you.

There comes a point where some things are so backwards and dumb that I have to refrain myself from trying to care, because they seem too far gone. 

I've done my part, god bless this mess.

A god that would make hell is no god worth worshiping, and if that God cannot get rid of said hell, he is also not worthy of worship. 

If anything, you worship the devil by praising god for creating and sustaining hell. He who would kill all with a flood and be praised? Only by the sick of mind.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28331902 - 05/23/23 10:10 PM (8 months, 1 day ago)

Another user in my blocked list using my god given power to ignore.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28332035 - 05/24/23 02:50 AM (8 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
I don't hate god, I just avoid people like you.

There comes a point where some things are so backwards and dumb that I have to refrain myself from trying to care, because they seem too far gone. 

I've done my part, god bless this mess.

A god that would make hell is no god worth worshiping, and if that God cannot get rid of said hell, he is also not worthy of worship. 

If anything, you worship the devil by praising god for creating and sustaining hell. He who would kill all with a flood and be praised? Only by the sick of mind.





I'm going to articulate this. Often, points are made out of context. This is how Christians can unintentionally give God a bad name. It is best for me to quote scripture as it is written, rather than paraphrasing, at times. Other times it is easier to paraphrase and encourage people to research for themselves.

In reference to the flood, where you say all were killed. Not everyone died, otherwise there would not have been any survivors. Like Moses, his family and all of the animals. Only the violent and evil were killed, and they constituted an overwhelming majority

-Why did the flood happen? Because the humans around at that time were thoroughly violent and evil (Yes, God takes notice. He is also very patient). He can also resurrect the dead, and therefore killing is not the end of them. We all die once

"The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord."

-Although people were found to be violent and evil, would God destroy them in the future?

"Then Noah built an altar to the Lord and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

“As long as the earth endures,

seedtime and harvest,

cold and heat,

summer and winter,

day and night

will never cease.”

-What is the significance of the rainbow?

“I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth. I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.”

And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth. Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth.”

So God said to Noah, “This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all life on the earth.”"


Edited by van0014 (05/24/23 06:00 AM)


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Re: I reject religion [Re: van0014]
    #28332171 - 05/24/23 07:23 AM (8 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

van0014 said:

Do you think there should be a justice system in Heaven?




Quite often "justice" is a masquerade for revenge via punishment.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28332214 - 05/24/23 08:03 AM (8 months, 1 day ago)

How can a perfect, omniscient, and omnipotent being ever come to "regret his actions"? He knew the future from the start, he had what Christians always cite as "a perfect plan". Yet he was so much of a fuck up that killing literally everyone except a bunch of animals and a small family on a boat was the only course of action?

Also why would God be so pleased at the smell of burnt innocent animals? Are we just going to skip over that bit?

To anyone not partaking in religion these primitive stories sound completely batshit insane if taken literally. It's ironic that even Gnostics by the 2nd century had already figured out that the God of the Old Testament was inconsistent with whatever positive qualities it was purported to have.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: jomanda1990]
    #28332250 - 05/24/23 08:38 AM (8 months, 1 day ago)

The esoteric creation theories bring some interesting takes on it, as for example, there were lesser and greater influences in creation, as we are here, submitted under the creations of those who do not and cannot access the higher. Yet the highers put that in us, the capacity and essence.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: syncro]
    #28332293 - 05/24/23 09:16 AM (8 months, 1 day ago)

sounds nomological to me


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28332539 - 05/24/23 12:57 PM (8 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

blessed said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
it's manipulative, making people into megaphones of a jesus message



The Bible is not manipulative as you wrongly claim.  It presents itself as a message and instructions from a supernatural being/force to be accepted or rejected as truth.

...



Bless me, while Christianity is manipulative, I should not say the bible is manipulative, (I apologize if I did write that) but I also will not agree that Christianity is the bible (it is a religious organization and federated collection of institutions)
nor will I say that Christianity is what exterminated so many of my historical forbears during the religiously formalized Spanish inquisition of the 15th century, although so many crimes have been deliberately committed in the name of Christianity to so many people of other origins and even to people of the book (the bible).

I must say that the virulent aspects of manipulation in Christianity are many-fold, including the way that you keep changing the subject in order to defend the history of horrors that have been the legacy of your devoted creed.



Concerning what has been done in the name of Christianity.  I do not pretend for a moment that people haven't done evil things while claiming to be Christians or while doing God's work.  When I consider this truth, what comes to mind is that there have been more then a few people (including in recent history) that I would not consider (nor by the Bible standards) to be a true christian despite the claims of said person(s).  This is actually a point made in the Bible, and that is that not everyone who calls themself a christian will enter into the kingdom of God.  These people will be shocked (or not) to hear Jesus tell them that he never knew them (or them, he) and they they will be sent off to hell being called by Jesus "workers of lawlessness" (Matthew 7:23).

So where many blame Christians for wars and all manners of evil, I would say the actually issue is humans. For every fake christian there is a fake atheist, as I said before, for every issue made against a christian, there is a atheist that does in principal, the very same wrong/evil.

You and I have now had a not too long conversation on this subject matter, and I just want to point out that I have never in our discussions done what you've said above  "including the way that you keep changing the subject in order to defend the history of horrors that have been the legacy of your devoted creed.", clearly this is something you have noticed or experienced, but it's not something you can say of me.

So in closing on this point, I say I don't deny that wrongs have been done in the name of Christianity which is a sad reality of life, but I then consider this.......

The Bible says EVERYONE will be judged by God, their actions (both bad & good), their words and their thoughts as well.  It is at this time that God will judged the evil acts by these people you are referring to.  The point i make is no one will be exempt from this judgment day and I repeat, that according to the Bible, every word, every thought and every action will be judged by God.

No ones getting away with anything, no one  :thumbup:.


Quote:

redgreenvines said:
The bible is a composite volume, written by people not god's word and not written by jesus either.



As this is your opinion, I have no need to respond other then I respect your opinion.

Please note: I could reply to this with a paragraph of my thoughts on the Bible, but as you reject it as truth and I accept it as truth, there's not really any point is there?, In saying this, with my critical thinking, I do believe it's God's word.


Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Until you get it straight, as to what you are talking about and what I am talking about, you really should not be posting here at all where critical thinking can be followed while we share ideas.



Quote:

redgreenvines said:
you must pause here.



No.


Quote:

sudly said:
If your god would send anyone to hell, I wouldn't want to worship such a horribly vile and vindictive piece of shit.



You've said this before, would you please instead reply to what I said?

Quote:

sudly said:
Put some garlic on your door if you want excitement, just incase there are vampires.

If there's no garlic on your door, I think your talk of hell is hella hypocritical.:shrug:



How is van0014 being hypocritical?  Please provide all the facts proving that he is or stop making such stupid claims.

Quote:

sudly said:
Jesus was just a man.

There is no evidence outside of that.



As someone who comes across as science is truth/knowledge supreme, you sure do fail when making baseless claims.  This statement of yours is nothing but the opinion of a mere mortal that thinks his opinion is fact.

Quote:

sudly said:
Says the book? Then kill some kids ya cherry pickin hypocrite.



You keep referring to this from the Bible.  I wonder, how did you come to learn of this event told in the Old Testament?


Quote:

syncro said:
Quote:

syncro said:
    You're right though because we're not claiming all of science is accurate. But who doesn't toss out scripture that implies doing harm?

  blessed said:
I don't, it's there for a reason.




I'll meet you half way if there are alternate meanings that may be useful, but offering burnt sacrifice based on the neighbors' behaviors? I'll take an alternate meaning there, but some things just don't stay. I don't know what religions don't carry some kind of idiocy as such, often much older writings I suppose, like the OT.



The events told in the Old Testament are events that happened (both good and bad), but this does not mean that the God of the Bible is saying to you and I, do the same thing, it's records what happened warts and all.  As for the laws given to the nation of Israel, I can not say much other then they are the laws given to them (not us) for them to follow.  If you have a problem with the Laws given to the Jews by God then I suggest you seek out a Jewish rabbi and ask them whatever questions you may have, alternatively study the New Testament for explanation on the nation of Israel, the law given to them and how the OT and NT come together.

Nowhere am I told in the Bible to do the same things that those individuals did in the OT as a christian today (example: Lot having sex with his two daughters).  What is written happened, and it's inclusion in the OT is for a reason.  What reason?, well for starters the New Testament covers the subject of the OT (the law and sacrifices) and how all all relates to Jesus and salvation.  In short there is a reason for it, and it's in studying the Bible God helps us better understand (Romans 15:4).


Edited by blessed (05/24/23 01:10 PM)


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Re: I reject religion [Re: jomanda1990]
    #28332549 - 05/24/23 01:03 PM (8 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

jomanda1990 said:
Quote:

blessed said:

Quote:

jomanda1990 said:

why god won't heal amputees dot com says hi... No need to waste time re-debunking the wheel to be honest.



I'm not interesting in clicking a link, please provide a point and then explain this so called debunking.





Of course you're not interested. I didn't even think for a second you'd bother reading something that doesn't conform to your story. As I said, I see no need to waste my or anyone else's time on people who openly desire to be intellectually stagnant.



Hello jomanda1990.

My point was instead of just providing a link, present your case in this thread.  All you did was provide a link and metion something about debunking, not good enough.

I don't have time to be clicking random links.  But if you do present a case or point on this site, and I have a response to it, I will then have the time.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: van0014]
    #28332564 - 05/24/23 01:16 PM (8 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

“I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”




To even think that killing hundreds of thousands if not millions of children and all the animals instead of just the evil people is the most evil thing I have ever heard of, especially for god that should be able to be more selective. This is the one rare case it makes sense to say god sounds worse than Hitler by a long shot.

Quote:

Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.




You need some serious self reflection if you think some entity who did something so malevolent should get a second chance. I'd hang the bastard.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: blessed]
    #28332568 - 05/24/23 01:17 PM (8 months, 1 day ago)

Good to know you don't read my responses and that it isn't worth my time and effort to respond to you :cookiemonster:


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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28332578 - 05/24/23 01:27 PM (8 months, 1 day ago)

blessed?  Do you eat mushrooms to connect with what you consider God/Divine/Holy/Sacred?


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28332590 - 05/24/23 01:33 PM (8 months, 1 day ago)

I do read your responses.

Now let's get critical. I said to you these things;

Quote:

sudly said:
Put some garlic on your door if you want excitement, just incase there are vampires.

If there's no garlic on your door, I think your talk of hell is hella hypocritical.:shrug:



How is van0014 being hypocritical?  Please provide all the facts proving that he is or stop making such stupid claims.

Quote:

sudly said:
Jesus was just a man.

There is no evidence outside of that.



As someone who comes across as science is truth/knowledge supreme, you sure do fail when making baseless claims.  This statement of yours is nothing but the opinion of a mere mortal that thinks his opinion is fact.

Quote:

sudly said:
Says the book? Then kill some kids ya cherry pickin hypocrite.



You keep referring to this from the Bible.  I wonder, how did you come to learn of this event told in the Old Testament?


and then you responded to these 3 statements/question with,

Quote:

sudly said:
If your god would send anyone to hell, I wouldn't want to worship such a horribly vile and vindictive piece of shit.



At which I replied,

Quote:

sudly said:
If your god would send anyone to hell, I wouldn't want to worship such a horribly vile and vindictive piece of shit.



You've said this before, would you please instead reply to what I said?

And now you reply with,

Quote:

sudly said:
Good to know you don't read my responses and that it isn't worth my time and effort to respond to you :cookiemonster:



If you don't want to answer my questions/statements then just say so (or say nothing), but what you are currently doing is avoiding the point.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: FishOilTheKid] * 1
    #28332602 - 05/24/23 01:38 PM (8 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

FishOilTheKid said:
blessed?  Do you eat mushrooms to connect with what you consider God/Divine/Holy/Sacred?



I do eat magic mushrooms, but I do not consume them for the purpose of connecting to (or with) God.

Recent finds



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Re: I reject religion [Re: blessed]
    #28332730 - 05/24/23 02:34 PM (8 months, 1 day ago)

Interesting.  What do you make of John Allegro's work if you've read it?  What of the 'psychedelic gospels' theory?  Nice pics...!!


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: I reject religion [Re: blessed]
    #28332864 - 05/24/23 03:38 PM (8 months, 23 hours ago)

You are selectively blind, good to know.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28332933 - 05/24/23 04:31 PM (8 months, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

“I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”




To even think that killing hundreds of thousands if not millions of children and all the animals instead of just the evil people is the most evil thing I have ever heard of, especially for god that should be able to be more selective. This is the one rare case it makes sense to say god sounds worse than Hitler by a long shot.

Quote:

Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.




You need some serious self reflection if you think some entity who did something so malevolent should get a second chance. I'd hang the bastard.




Instead of just the evil people? It was only Noah and his family who wasn't evil, at that point in history:


the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time...  ...” But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord."

I want to have a serious talk about second chances, because that's one of the greatest things about God for us. If anyone won't forgive God, why should they be forgiven?

By your own measure you will be meted. It is the way we judge people that causes us to be judged in the first place. Our own false set of scales

In my opinion, anyone who has done horrific things can become much less likely to do them again. Not everyone, of course. But some people start to have a conscience about it, and they're less likely to do things than people who have not even considered doing them before. And in this, it can be seen that there's benefits to second chances


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Re: I reject religion [Re: van0014]
    #28333350 - 05/24/23 09:25 PM (8 months, 17 hours ago)

You think were all imbreds now.. and that a few thousand years ago all children were evil and thus is was righteous and forgivable to kill millions of them.

I think you are the morally worst person I have ever conversed with, but I appreciate your honesty towards your convictions.

Gods supposed to be an omnipotent all knowing being, I can forgive people for taking an extra slice of cake or raising their voice in an argument, but murdering my whole family and millions of other families because of having a bad day is fucking unforgivable and disgusting.

There's a limit, and killing millions of children is it.

If people with mindsets like you are getting into heaven, SEND ME TO HELL!


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28333414 - 05/24/23 10:46 PM (8 months, 16 hours ago)

Can someone please explain how an omnipotent and omniscient being who knows the future gets to a point where they 'regret their actions'? And regret them so bad that pushing a mass-extinction-event reset button is the best course of action?
IDGI


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Re: I reject religion [Re: jomanda1990]
    #28333604 - 05/25/23 05:08 AM (8 months, 9 hours ago)

The concept of Mother shaking us off her back when we are too detestable, as in evolution, extinction. That in multiple influences on creation, our outer sheaths were for a long time insufficient for manas, mind, to enter man.

If God is perfect then what God created would be perfect. But then the creations had some thought of separation from perfection. :shrugs: If they are perfect, they could not actually create imperfection, so dreamed, thus maya illusory nature.


Edited by syncro (05/25/23 07:03 AM)


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28333692 - 05/25/23 07:00 AM (8 months, 7 hours ago)

all you religion haters just take it too literally...

sudly, when was the last time you took a psychedelic? you seem like a very closed minded person


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Re: I reject religion [Re: epilectric]
    #28333696 - 05/25/23 07:07 AM (8 months, 7 hours ago)

And the religious side takes it too literally. The judgement paradigm is flawed I think, sowing and reaping natural. Judgement is our own. Or if God is perfect then it would be only one judgement which is perfection.


Edited by syncro (05/25/23 08:19 AM)


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Re: I reject religion [Re: syncro]
    #28333803 - 05/25/23 08:40 AM (8 months, 6 hours ago)

i don't know which religious side you are talking about. jesus for instance was all about non-judgment and accepting everyone. what some fools made out of that is a whole nother story

i'm part of no religion, yet i draw inspiration from all of them. i follow whichever rule i find appropriate as long as it fits my personal religious feel. never heard of mysticism, right?


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Re: I reject religion [Re: epilectric] * 1
    #28333850 - 05/25/23 09:06 AM (8 months, 5 hours ago)

Agreed, the principle of Jesus and what religion emphasizes different.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28333942 - 05/25/23 11:00 AM (8 months, 3 hours ago)

just go with the principle then,
you don't get extra points by the jesusification of your merits.
nor do you get it by buddhafying


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Re: I reject religion [Re: epilectric]
    #28334164 - 05/25/23 01:29 PM (8 months, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

epilectric said:
all you religion haters just take it too literally...

sudly, when was the last time you took a psychedelic? you seem like a very closed minded person




When people take religion too literally I listen, and I like to be open minded, just not so open minded for the brain to fall out.

I appreciate elequant understandings of wooh wooh concepts and respect some people who even consider themselves witches, as they practice rituals in a similar way to others praying.

I like a mindful practitioner.

Psychedelics solidified my irreligiousity.

I think mysticism is god without a name, very esoteric. 


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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28334272 - 05/25/23 02:28 PM (8 months, 29 minutes ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
just go with the principle then,
you don't get extra points by the jesusification of your merits.
nor do you get it by buddhafying




Not extra, but perhaps helpful for one to get them, role models, a preference.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28334833 - 05/25/23 11:09 PM (7 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

FishOilTheKid said:
Interesting.  What do you make of John Allegro's work if you've read it?  What of the 'psychedelic gospels' theory?  Nice pics...!!



I haven't heard of John Allegro or anything about "'psychedelic gospels' theory".  I'll look into it (when I can) and then get I'll back to you what I think about them both.

I will say that your recent post have made me wonder if anyone from the Bible consumed Magic Mushrooms or not, and the first question that comes to mind is, are there/were there Magic Mushrooms in the areas mentioned in the Bible (OT & NT)?

Btw, Sorry I haven't made that post yet, I'll endeavor to soon-ish.



Quote:

sudly said:
You are                            good        now.




  :thumbup:


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Re: I reject religion [Re: blessed]
    #28334858 - 05/26/23 12:27 AM (7 months, 30 days ago)

Magic mushrooms were definitely around.

With ample bovine populations.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28335191 - 05/26/23 08:04 AM (7 months, 30 days ago)

There were some psychoactive plants available to people in those regions as well, such as Peganum Harmala.
IDK if you have ever consumed them, but if you mix them with anything even slightly psychedelic (like LSA or ergotamine or whatever the Greeks used in the Eleusinian mystery rites), you can get pretty wild hallucinatory effects.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28335214 - 05/26/23 08:33 AM (7 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
I think mysticism is god without a name, very esoteric. 




esoteric.. everything that doesn't fit western mainstream science is called esoteric. the use of this word just means that you're brainwashed by technocrats imo.

it's the notion that knowledge was basically invented by white people subjugating tribes in the colonised lands.

i'd rather be esoteric than white supremacist (unconsciously)!


Edited by epilectric (05/26/23 08:39 AM)


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Re: I reject religion [Re: epilectric]
    #28335251 - 05/26/23 09:13 AM (7 months, 30 days ago)

To me I think it means most simply, internal.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: syncro]
    #28335330 - 05/26/23 10:19 AM (7 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

I haven't heard of John Allegro or anything about "'psychedelic gospels' theory".  I'll look into it (when I can) and then get I'll back to you what I think about them both.




Wow!  Thats surprising.  Please do.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: syncro]
    #28335403 - 05/26/23 11:02 AM (7 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
To me I think it means most simply, internal.




it's basically the feeling of ego loss and the merging of the inner and outer world as one reality... the stuff every religion in its core was initially based upon..

other than that religion can provide a nice community feeling and positive attitudes that may trickle down to the rest of society. or it can incite war and terror... its up to the carriers


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Re: I reject religion [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #28335447 - 05/26/23 11:38 AM (7 months, 30 days ago)



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Re: I reject religion [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #28335449 - 05/26/23 11:40 AM (7 months, 30 days ago)



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Re: I reject religion [Re: epilectric]
    #28335524 - 05/26/23 12:24 PM (7 months, 30 days ago)

esoteric refers to private and secret like
Quote:

intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest.


, and occult refers to hidden.

it is not about any kind of conspiracy of scientists.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28335571 - 05/26/23 01:00 PM (7 months, 30 days ago)

okay then, maybe i'm esoteric.. 🤷


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Re: I reject religion [Re: epilectric]
    #28335588 - 05/26/23 01:16 PM (7 months, 30 days ago)

so you are not telling


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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28335595 - 05/26/23 01:24 PM (7 months, 30 days ago)

ok go ahead, burn me ...

gonna switch to the spirituality & mysticism forum. have fun


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Edited by epilectric (05/26/23 01:29 PM)


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Re: I reject religion [Re: Svetaketu]
    #28355821 - 06/11/23 03:55 PM (7 months, 13 days ago)

Sorry for the delay I was doing an academic sprint for the finish line. This is my first weekend with no dissertation bologna to worry about for a  long time! : )

Regarding the Goldilocks argument (the “fine tuning of the universe”), if you are interested to learn about it there is a lot of information out there on the web.

Peter Atkins is perhaps the most sound atheistic voice of reason defending against the fine tuning of the universe. Here are Atkins' main points to support your position (against mine):

1. God must be very fond of rock. He could have used a very different set of fundamental constants that would be conducive to life and avoided all of the rock that there is.
2. We are basing our views on the kind of chemistry that we are familiar with. Maybe a slightly different form of life based on silicon or aluminum would have been possible.
3. Multiverse hypothesis. Suppose there are nearly an infinite array of universes that exist. The fine tuning of the universe is just an astronomical coincidence. With so many universes, it is not surprising that one got it right for us to exist.
4. Lets look at the fundamental viewpoint of this whole argument about the fine tuning of the univrse. What is so special about life? Why are we making it such a marvelous event? Life is a jolly nice form of matter, but let’s not put it on a pedestal.

Cheers!


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Re: I reject religion [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28355841 - 06/11/23 04:14 PM (7 months, 13 days ago)

I know that there's more than a 0% chance of life being out there since it happened here. I don't doubt there atleast bacteria like stuff on many planets. We just happened to luck out and survive till now.

Rocky planets are generally closer to the Sun, the gaseous planets are further out where the Suns heat and rays don't have as much of an impact. Distance to the Sun determines a lot of the rockyness a planet has when it develops from the accretion of gasses left over from the Suns formation. 

I see no point in hypothesising multiverses or what benefit or insight that could bring other than a feel good 'that'd be neat', like being able to poop ice cream.

I don't see reason to think there isn't a good probability of non carbon based life somewhere, a single cell of any sort is life, and with all the environmental variety of other planets it seems plausible to me.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28355857 - 06/11/23 04:26 PM (7 months, 13 days ago)

But even as much as I am spiritually opposed to organized religion, humans are better off with religious institutions.

In any Islamic city under the strict rule of Sharia Law, you can leave your phone and bag on a park bench as you play ball, and when you return, nobody will have stolen it. The same can be said of the Dutch Reformed town of Pella, Iowa where it is so strict that residents do not mow their lawns on Sundays. The same can also be said for any Amish community.

One function of religion is to provide societal governance. Most of our current cultural ideology comes from religion. Some degree of honesty is taught by most every major religion. Teaching people to refrain from killing others, to take care of the poor, to work hard, to prepare for scarcity... there are several different values in our society that come from organized religions.

In many ways our current Western secular democracy is just first-century Christianity with the offensive bits about God removed. Western democracy's military missionaries are proselytizing the "unenlightened" ini hubris to spread our own brand of freedom. It seems that the high priests of today's secular religion are those who control commerce. The spice must flow.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: Moses_Davidson] * 1
    #28355897 - 06/11/23 05:02 PM (7 months, 13 days ago)

And this is from 2015..

Quote:

The U.S. Catholic church has incurred nearly $4 billion in costs related to the priest sex abuse crisis during the past 65 years, according to an extensive NCR investigation of media reports, databases and church documents.

In addition, separate research recently published calculates that other scandal-related consequences such as lost membership and diverted giving has cost the church more than $2.3 billion annually for the past 30 years.

Between 1950 and August of this year, the church has paid out $3,994,797,060.10, NCR found.

https://www.ncronline.org/ncr-research-costs-sex-abuse-crisis-us-church-underestimated




In regard to Sharia law, taken from a womans perspective, it's oppressive. You're missing the ball with focus on leaving a phone in a park when the woman can't even go to the park without a man.

I also have no idea how it can be a good thing not to be allowed to mow your lawn on a Sunday. Sounds like masochism or a sub-kink the way you've explained it.

The amish community might do well without the allure of social media, but I'm not a fan of the traditional roles that are generally advocated within.

Plus the whole women can't be church leaders thing,
Quote:

Amish women have the right to vote in Member’s Meetings and also to nominate candidates for church ministry.  However, they do not serve in that same church leadership.




Historically nearly all cultures were religious but nowadays whatever religious culture exists, isn't fundamental to a working society when there are already secular values in place. Taking care of others isn't inherently religious, and frankly plenty of religious idealogues of modern times do everything they can to hurt others and take from them. Pat Robertson, McConnel, all the megachurch pastors etc. Jesus was a socialist before it was a thing, a hippy among hippies, the whole camel will pass through the eye of a needle before a rich man, the pacifism of turning the other cheek etc. Certainly nothing espoused to by much of the right wing religious compendium. Religion is often a facade for greed.

Would you be okay with a publically funded Muslim school, Satan school, spaghetti monster school? Are you okay with this?

Quote:

Oklahoma OKs the nation’s first religious charter school – but litigation is likely to follow

“The approval of any publicly funded religious school is contrary to Oklahoma law and not in the best interest of taxpayers,” Oklahoma Attorney General Gentner Drummond said in a statement after the Monday vote, warning that the board and state will likely face legal challenges.

The key question is not whether a charter would help or harm local education, but whether explicitly religious instruction at charter schools is constitutional, given the First Amendment’s protections against government establishment of religion. Moreover, Oklahoma law requires charter schools to be nonsectarian.

https://theconversation.com/oklahoma-oks-the-nations-first-religious-charter-school-but-litigation-is-likely-to-follow-207103




There are no high priests of 'secular religion', that's a silly non-sequitar. There are corporate crony capatalists who don't use religion as an afront to fulfill their own desires, and some that do.

Religion isn't relevant to the modern day, any use of it in the political atmosphere is generally an excuse or dodge. Religion is no longer the foundation of our culture that it historically has been, it's not the reason we can be nice and caring, and it is the reason a lot of people give money to, or trust unscrupulous characters. But there are plenty of those religous or not.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28356754 - 06/12/23 09:13 AM (7 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:

Jesus was a socialist before it was a thing, a hippy among hippies, the whole camel will pass through the eye of a needle before a rich man, the pacifism of turning the other cheek etc.




Jesus talked a lot about the sin of judging the hearts of others, and the damage it produces.  No political party aligns with that value.  These days politics is focused on anger and condemnation.  I have friends who tell me I'm not as mad as I should be!  (We are locked in a battle of good versus evil!)  American politics feels like an explosion of religious fervor.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28356766 - 06/12/23 09:22 AM (7 months, 13 days ago)

Condemnation,
the whole nation could be condemned, but some should be much more condemned, so much more it hurts to think about it.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28356788 - 06/12/23 09:34 AM (7 months, 13 days ago)

That's the current trend.  Group A is bad, but Group B is very bad.

One political party calling another political party a "cult" is a humorous as Christians calling Mormonism a cult.  I find all of the name calling ridiculously funny. I guess it helps people feel better about themselves? Calling someone a narcissist isn't demeaning enough.  They are a malignant narcissist!!!

it's so childish - yet people are embracing hatred proudly


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I reject religion [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28356883 - 06/12/23 10:41 AM (7 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
That's the current trend.  Group A is bad, but Group B is very bad.

One political party calling another political party a "cult" is a humorous as Christians calling Mormonism a cult.  I find all of the name calling ridiculously funny. I guess it helps people feel better about themselves? Calling someone a narcissist isn't demeaning enough.  They are a malignant narcissist!!!

it's so childish - yet people are embracing hatred proudly



pride in hatred is malignant
because it spreads like cancer,
and those affected take on the pride as well as the hate.


--------------------
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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28357102 - 06/12/23 01:30 PM (7 months, 13 days ago)

I am neither a proponent of Catholicism, Dutch Reformed lawn-mowing, Sharia Law or living the Amish lifestyle-- but they do have lower theft rates. Are there common denominators among those groups that are positive?

Corporate crony capitalists and socialist oligarchs are the priests of today's secular religion. Get rid of either of those groups, you'll have the other.

Social Darwinism has its merits too. A utopian society could operate very efficiently. Far more efficiently than a society constrained by the fetters of religious ideals such as caring for the weak.

But I think a lot of your own values come from religion. This vestigial inheritance from your ancestors is surely holding you back. How do we pick and choose what religious values to keep and which to discard? Surely emotional attachment, inherent goodness, or a vote of the mob. Consider Socrates' arguments about "what is good?"


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: I reject religion [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28357128 - 06/12/23 01:46 PM (7 months, 13 days ago)

Policies of hatred are shit, but clearly more evident from Republican religious denominations.

Both sides are corporate chrony capitalists, but at least one of them feigns social acceptance. Dems don't fight for it well, but they don't push bills of hatred for minorities based on sexuality or the reproductive rights of women.

They're not a fan of immigration though.

But all aside, there are clear policies to point to and criticise.


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: I reject religion [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28357131 - 06/12/23 01:49 PM (7 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
American politics feels like an explosion of religious fervor.




Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
That's the current trend.  Group A is bad, but Group B is very bad.

I guess it helps people feel better about themselves? 

it's so childish - yet people are embracing hatred proudly




Yeah I agree 100%. Not cool. We need more natural medicine.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28357138 - 06/12/23 01:59 PM (7 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Both sides are corporate chrony capitalists,...

But all aside, there are clear policies to point to and criticise.




Looks like a smokescreen to me. No matter which you vote for, you're voting pro-bankers, pro-oil refineries, pro-pharma, pro-lawers, and anti-revolutionary, anti-stablecoin crypto (in the US).


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28357143 - 06/12/23 02:02 PM (7 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Condemnation,
the whole nation could be condemned, but some should be much more condemned, so much more it hurts to think about it.




Off with their heads!


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I reject religion [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28357160 - 06/12/23 02:18 PM (7 months, 13 days ago)

condemned means damned by a convent


--------------------
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Invisiblesudly
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Re: I reject religion [Re: Moses_Davidson] * 1
    #28357438 - 06/12/23 05:16 PM (7 months, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
Quote:

sudly said:
Both sides are corporate chrony capitalists,...

But all aside, there are clear policies to point to and criticise.




Looks like a smokescreen to me. No matter which you vote for, you're voting pro-bankers, pro-oil refineries, pro-pharma, pro-lawers, and anti-revolutionary, anti-stablecoin crypto (in the US).




Some progressive policies are clearly better for the general public and supported by the majority in polls. Unfortunately a number of the progressive caucus don't seem to have stood up strong for the progressive values and have bowed to corporate democratic pressure instead :sadyes:


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Re: I reject religion [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28358312 - 06/13/23 11:22 AM (7 months, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
I am neither a proponent of Catholicism, Dutch Reformed lawn-mowing, Sharia Law or living the Amish lifestyle-- but they do have lower theft rates. Are there common denominators among those groups that are positive?





Why don't we look at the rate of rapes or child abuse in those communities instead? I'd say that's probably the common denominator.

It's easy to stop theft when you start chopping hands off; the ends don't justify the means.

Quote:


But I think a lot of your own values come from religion. This vestigial inheritance from your ancestors is surely holding you back. How do we pick and choose what religious values to keep and which to discard? Surely emotional attachment, inherent goodness, or a vote of the mob. Consider Socrates' arguments about "what is good?"




Morality is honestly pretty simple, as long as we can agree on a goal (for example, the wellbeing of humans as a whole).

Once we have a goal, basically all moral questions fall into line with very minimal logic.

Appealing to some kind of religion or higher power is not of any help here at all, in fact historically, moralities based on religious values have been disgusting, leading to atrocities like the Spanish inquisition and suicide bombing.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: Svetaketu]
    #28358329 - 06/13/23 11:39 AM (7 months, 12 days ago)

Its true.  I very much identify with the REBELLION from religious thinking/rule.  ...By way of science, and the rebellion of Lucifer. 

:billseal:


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28359569 - 06/14/23 12:38 PM (7 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:

Some progressive policies are clearly better for the general public and supported by the majority in polls. Unfortunately, a number of the progressive caucus don't seem to have stood up strong for the progressive values and have bowed to corporate democratic pressure instead :sadyes:




It's fascinating how this rarely is discussed.

Makes some folks wonder if their stated views are even genuine.

Many on the left hate Jimmy Dore for talking about it . . .


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: I reject religion [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28359624 - 06/14/23 01:33 PM (7 months, 11 days ago)

I think Jimmy Dore became a bit of a grifter, sad to see. Some of the progressive caucus don't stand up for their stated views, but the general policy ideals of progressives are genuinely favoured by the majority.


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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28360468 - 06/15/23 06:06 AM (7 months, 10 days ago)



--------------------
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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28382073 - 07/02/23 05:33 AM (6 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
check out this
https://www.axios.com/2023/06/15/tim-alberta-book-kingdom-evangelical-christian




Sounds like a modern-day Kierkegaard in his view toward the church. Kierkegaard called it (the church) the same sort of abomination that Christ came to abolish. If I recall correctly, Christ himself was in the temple dumping over the tables of the capitalists working inside. Are you going to read it?


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Re: I reject religion [Re: Svetaketu]
    #28382078 - 07/02/23 05:45 AM (6 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Svetaketu said:

Quote:


How do we pick and choose what religious values to keep and which to discard? Surely emotional attachment, inherent goodness, or a vote of the mob. Consider Socrates' arguments about "what is good?"




Morality is honestly pretty simple, as long as we can agree on a goal (for example, the wellbeing of humans as a whole). Once we have a goal, basically all moral questions fall into line with very minimal logic.






What if we don't agree? What if the majority voted for Adolf Hitler? Didn't the Germans all agree on how to handle morality? Does a vote of agreement make any idea right?


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineSvetaketu
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Re: I reject religion [Re: Moses_Davidson] * 1
    #28388209 - 07/07/23 09:43 AM (6 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
What if we don't agree? What if the majority voted for Adolf Hitler? Didn't the Germans all agree on how to handle morality? Does a vote of agreement make any idea right?




Well yeah, plenty of people don't agree on morality, because it is a social construct.

We talk about it, and if that doesn't work we fight about it.

However pushing the question towards religion doesn't help one bit. The Muslims disagree with the Catholics who disagree with the Scientologist and on and on. People thinking they have God in their corner doesn't help the discussion, it just makes people more prone to violence.

Fwiw, on the belt buckle of every nazi soldier was inscribed "Gott mit uns" - God with us.


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