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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: I reject religion [Re: jomanda1990]
    #28287320 - 04/20/23 08:09 PM (9 months, 3 days ago)

I think anyone reading that can see it was neither pascal's wager nor a pro-Christian argument. It was a Freudian question about insecurity, from a Christian. There is a difference : ) 

But...

I didn't notice anyone defending their atheistic belief against the dangers of Native American polytheism, or of the brujería religions, the Greek or Egyptian pantheons, or the African spiritism.

Seems to me that most people don't really have an anti-religious bias as much as anger against Christians.

But now I would like to make the first pro-Christian argument in this thread: If you have been hurt by people claiming to be Christians, it wasn't right, and I'm sorry you were hurt.

Groups of people being mean or stupid will rally under any banner, and that is the sort of thing that Yeshua Hamashiach came to abolish. It wasn't right, and in humility, I remove my hat in respect, and offer you my most sincere apology.

I think there are more spiritual seekers in an anti-religion thread than in the average church.

(EDIT: "athiestic faith" changed to "athiestic belief")


Edited by Moses_Davidson (04/21/23 07:24 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I reject religion [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28287339 - 04/20/23 08:26 PM (9 months, 3 days ago)

a few Christians give other Christians a bad reputation, and set a bad example for the next generation.
turning the other cheek does not seem to be helping.
We could use more god fearing athiests to turn this around.


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28287359 - 04/20/23 08:36 PM (9 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
We could use more god fearing athiests to turn this around.




: )

I could not agree with you more.


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"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Offlinejomanda1990
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Re: I reject religion [Re: Moses_Davidson] * 1
    #28287525 - 04/21/23 12:15 AM (9 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
I didn't notice anyone defending their atheistic faith against the dangers of Native American polytheism, or of the brujería religions, the Greek or Egyptian pantheons, or the African spiritism.

Seems to me that most people don't really have an anti-religious bias as much as anger against Christians.





Most people here interact mostly with Christians due to regional circumstances. So there's that. I can confidently guarantee every atheist in the world will think that all of those religions you mentioned are also bull, but why discuss them if they are hardly even around? I personally hold that irrationality in all its forms is dangerous.

Also in my eyes your apology is diluted by the use of the cheeky phrasing "atheistic faith," as if a lack of a belief can somehow be twisted to mean "faith in a different proposition." But I think we may just have different definitions for the word.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I reject religion [Re: jomanda1990]
    #28287653 - 04/21/23 05:49 AM (9 months, 3 days ago)



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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28287768 - 04/21/23 07:42 AM (9 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

jomanda1990 said:


Also in my eyes your apology is diluted by the use of the cheeky phrasing "atheistic faith," as if a lack of a belief can somehow be twisted to mean "faith in a different proposition."




The apology is entirely sincere, but you're right a cheeky comment has no place in an apology. It has been edited and removed.

But since you bring up the topic of faith... as repugnant as the idea is to me, I still had to have a great deal of faith when I held athiestic beliefs. The particularly troubling part to me that made me squirm was the Goldilocks problem regarding the laws of nature in our universe. Of course, the answer to the Goldilocks problem (of our universe being such a perfect balance that if any of a high amount of variables/constants were modified, then life would not be possible) is the multiverse. Our universe is not special at all as long as there were numerous chances for it to happen to have landed as it did, and that a nearly infinite number of universes exist outside of our universe. When one honestly examines the Goldilocks problem, the multiverse is really the only other explanation that makes any sense.

But coming back to science, I'd really prefer something that we can test.

Anytime we are creating untestable concepts of how the universe began, outside of the laws of nature, this sort of supernatural discussion is inherently in the realm of faith and religion-- not of science.

The fact that half of all published (testable) research is wrong is disconcerting to me as an academic researcher... so I think one can't really take any position on untestable ideas without a degree of faith.

It seems to me that if someone wishes to rest in the comfort of science (my preference) that the only truly faithless creed is agnosticism.

I asked an agnostic if he agreed with any of this and he told me he wasn't sure.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I reject religion [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28287790 - 04/21/23 07:50 AM (9 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
...

I asked an agnostic if he agreed with any of this and he told me he wasn't sure.




hahaha!

the most stunning thing about existence is that we can imagine the opposite.


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: I reject religion [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28287844 - 04/21/23 08:25 AM (9 months, 3 days ago)

Here is one (of several) examples of a researcher dealing with one (of several) aspect of the Goldilocks problem in astrophysics. It also plagues other things such as subatomic particle research with all of its super-symmetry, and this is a popular current topic in academic research.

If you like to follow white rabbits,...

Garaldi, E., Compostella, M., & Porciani, C. (2019). The Goldilocks problem of the quasar contribution to reionization. Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society, 483(4), 5301-5314.

There are an awful lot of articles out there dealing with the Goldilocks problem. As you get into it, you'll see that each field uses its own terminology to address the same basic problem. So searching for "Goldilocks problem" in the scientific literature is more of an on-ramp to begin reading about this deep subject than a comprehensive presentation of all known examples.

Another thing that I researched quite a bit to support my beliefs as an athiest was abiogenesis. Just about any biologist will tell you that we are are getting closer in closer to replicating life in the lab. With the synthesis of amino acids into cell-like lipid capsules using early-earth conditions, and with advances in genetic research, we are finding more and more support for agiogenesis. The problem is that the biologists who don't share this degree of confidence are those actually on the front lines doing this research. If you do a cursory search of the published academic research on this subject, you'll see that these researchers are saying something very different about their progress.

Here is a very un-religious published paper from this year that should give you an informative snapshot of some current discussion among scientists:

Whitmire, D. P. (2023). Abiogenesis: the Carter argument reconsidered. International Journal of Astrobiology, 22(2), 94-99.

I don't think this guy is an idiot who is fighting imaginary shadows. He is defending abiogenesis itself because it is necessary to defend it in light of the lack of progress from the abiogenesis researchers.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I reject religion [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28287891 - 04/21/23 09:13 AM (9 months, 3 days ago)

abiogenesis seemed to me to be fact since I was about 11yrs old.
I just called it phospholipid bubbles with a little bit extra.


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Offlinejomanda1990
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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28288059 - 04/21/23 11:31 AM (9 months, 3 days ago)

I think I understand your position, but I don't think I'll ever accept the massive leap from "I cannot explain the present circumstances" to "This specific religion must surely be right". It's just the 'God of the gaps' fallacy with extra steps in a random direction. Not at all suitable for the rational.

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
abiogenesis seemed to me to be fact since I was about 11yrs old.
I just called it phospholipid bubbles with a little bit extra.




Ditto, it's simply evolution using simpler chemicals rather than already complex living organisms. They are quite literally the same rules.


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: I reject religion [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28288065 - 04/21/23 11:35 AM (9 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:

I didn't notice anyone defending their atheistic belief against the dangers of Native American polytheism, or of the brujería religions, the Greek or Egyptian pantheons, or the African spiritism.




I agree with the post about it being a regional thing.  For example, many modern day Americans are very angry and upset about US slavery in the 1700's yet these people are apathetic about the slavery that exists today in other places of the world.

BTW, I'm always suspicious of people who are much angrier about what happened 200 years ago than what is happening today.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I reject religion [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28288070 - 04/21/23 11:39 AM (9 months, 3 days ago)

oppressive religions and societies are have large invasive populations.

like rats just bigger


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OfflineSvetaketu
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Re: I reject religion [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28288445 - 04/21/23 03:09 PM (9 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
Here is one (of several) examples of a researcher dealing with one (of several) aspect of the Goldilocks problem in astrophysics. It also plagues other things such as subatomic particle research with all of its super-symmetry, and this is a popular current topic in academic research.

If you like to follow white rabbits,...

Garaldi, E., Compostella, M., & Porciani, C. (2019). The Goldilocks problem of the quasar contribution to reionization. Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society, 483(4), 5301-5314.





I don't know why I tried to read this, I'm no astrophysicist, but it seemed to be entirely about quasars and investigating how much ionizing radiation they create.

Which part of this is a good example of the "goldilocks problem"?

As you've described the problem, it seems imaginary. The cosmos is capable of supporting life, and we do our best to describe how.

If it wasn't capable of supporting life, we wouldn't be here to attempt to describe it.

If the cosmos was different then it is, there might be no life, or there might be different life, based on principles we cannot comprehend. We really have no way of investigating how unlikely or likely our specific arrangement is.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I reject religion [Re: Svetaketu]
    #28288595 - 04/21/23 04:09 PM (9 months, 2 days ago)

I'm not sure it could be different than what it is


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: I reject religion [Re: Svetaketu]
    #28289197 - 04/21/23 10:27 PM (9 months, 2 days ago)

There so many exoplanets in goldilocks zone it's almost inevitable some bacteria like stuff exists out there, it happened here so more than 0% chance. And with billions of planets it's surprised me anyone would say there isn't likely to be life elsewhere in some form, especially with all the amino acids for life in space rocks too.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: I reject religion [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28289384 - 04/22/23 04:37 AM (9 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
We could use more god fearing athiests to turn this around.




: )

I could not agree with you more.




I can't quite identity wholeheartedly with any one particular group or set of beliefs that've been wound up into the universal arena.  Reality, if when likened to the sky, in so far as I can tell - doesn't matter or mind wrt our species' myriad beliefs. 
People, on the other hand, some, sometimes do, some, sometimes don't.

Also, so far I've yet to observe anyone being smited out of existence for believing or unbelieving anything or anyway in particular - nor have I've yet to observe anything that could be contrived as divine intervention.  With that said, none of it is to take away (as if I could) from the natural "World's" magnificence- as we can / may know it.  Imho&e, oftentimes enough it's so naturally marvelous it's blinding.






--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (04/22/23 05:13 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I reject religion [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28289421 - 04/22/23 05:53 AM (9 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
...  Imho&e, oftentimes enough it's so naturally marvelous it's blinding.





ya.


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Offlinesyncro
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Re: I reject religion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28289445 - 04/22/23 06:38 AM (9 months, 2 days ago)

"I've yet to observe anyone being smited out of existence for believing or unbelieving anything or anyway in particular"

Perhaps about station, value to the marketplace, expressed in the gross level with money, in the emotional, mental the value is helpfulness, or the fruit, joy, contentment.

I think it removes conflict just to call God a quality like contentment. Then why call it God? Because its deeper than we know, but don't have to.

Could call it, Hiranyagarbha (the golden embryo), the sun.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: I reject religion [Re: syncro]
    #28290149 - 04/22/23 04:14 PM (9 months, 1 day ago)

The Sun is the sun and is foundational to our natural world.

What are you trying to make of it with hiranyagarbha?


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I reject religion [Re: sudly]
    #28290198 - 04/22/23 04:30 PM (9 months, 1 day ago)

cunnilingus


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