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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Reform or Revolution?
    #2825495 - 06/24/04 10:41 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)

I think all of us, whether liberal, conservative, or what have you, will agree there's some things wrong about our country. I'm wondering which you think is preferable: reform or revolution? Should we bring about changes in the system slowly through legislation, or have this nation's problems gotten so bad that we need to start over and have another revolution?
Which would you prefer?
You may choose only one
Reform
Revolution
Neither


Votes accepted from (06/24/04 02:00 AM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2825506 - 06/24/04 10:43 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)

i think perhaps you want to double check your first sentence there.

:thumbup:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2825508 - 06/24/04 10:45 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)

Thanks. *edited*


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2825573 - 06/24/04 11:01 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)

revolution requires a reform does it not?
I vote both


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2825586 - 06/24/04 11:04 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
revolution requires a reform does it not?



No, actually one of the things Karl Marx got right was realizing that reform is the enemy of revolution. Reform involves compromises, legislation, and negotiation. Revolution involves completely overthrowing the current system.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2825599 - 06/24/04 11:06 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)

Yes but once you have overthrown it.. then what?
You have to rebuild a hopefully better system learning from the mistakes of the past
and according to my dictionary reform =

1. To improve by alteration, correction of error, or removal of defects; put into a better form or condition.
2.
1. To abolish abuse or malpractice in: reform the government.
2. To put an end to (a wrong). See Synonyms at correct.
3. To cause (a person) to give up harmful or immoral practices; persuade to adopt a better way of life.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2825640 - 06/24/04 11:14 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)

Once you've overthrown it, you start over. That's not reform.


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Offlineuki
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2825666 - 06/24/04 11:19 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)

all things change, all things move, all things revolve... revolution is inevitable... america is not a divinely blessed super nation immune to the effects of change, it is simply ignorant and too arrogant to accept the facts. what befalls one nation, befalls all nations. hell, america is one of the youngest, greenest, and ill-prepared nation in the world for the coming change... america is in for a big, humbling shock. hell it was founded on bloodshed, do you honestly think it won't fall in bloodshed?


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2826260 - 06/25/04 01:32 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

So if revolution were to occur in the US, would you dismiss the Constitution and instead draft a new document?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2826271 - 06/25/04 01:33 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

Ok, I see your point. Anyway, just assume that revolution will involve some kind of political changes and stop arguing semantics.


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2826298 - 06/25/04 01:40 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

Ideally, I would say that reform would be best. It could avoid many of the problems that revolution would cause to the economy and the general state of disarray that would inevitably accompany the revolution.

There are problems with either though. Reform requires awareness, understanding, and resolve. Attributes that most American's seem to lack.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2826304 - 06/25/04 01:41 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

the only revolution that will work is a revolution of consciousness.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2826313 - 06/25/04 01:43 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

I see it now... Spike every reservoir with LSD... Brilliant!!!


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2826328 - 06/25/04 01:45 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

that would be an initiation of force


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2826334 - 06/25/04 01:46 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

Ya, but it'd be damn fun to see.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2826339 - 06/25/04 01:47 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

actually, the chlorine in the drinking water would nuetralize the LSD


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2826348 - 06/25/04 01:50 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

Goddamn chemistry, always ruining shit for me.  :thumbdown:


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2826362 - 06/25/04 01:54 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

There are too many people in this country, with too much space dividing. Just look at Europe, all those different governments suited best for the needs of the people. In the US, we have state to state laws, but it is not flexible enough to provide the people with the best government possible.

We need to break up into many sub-governments, instead of one giant one for the entire country. Maybe with some overlying enviromental laws over every sub-section of the country, so I definatly vote revolution.


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OfflineSquattingMarmot
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: Redo]
    #2826566 - 06/25/04 02:51 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

I actually remember reading a report put out by one of the US govt agencies a couple years ago. They predicted that by 2012 (I believe) a civil war will have started and America as a whole would be broken up into 4 seperate "super-states" each running their own affairs independent of each other.

I'll do a search and see if I can find it.


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"The gray-haired douche bag, Barbara Bush, has a slogan: "Encourage your child to read every day." What she should be is encouraging children to question what they read every day."

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Edited by SquattingMarmot (06/25/04 02:58 AM)


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: SquattingMarmot]
    #2826609 - 06/25/04 03:11 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

revolution, system is flawed by foundation.


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InvisibleAhronZombi
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2826781 - 06/25/04 04:56 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

Revolution will come


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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2827090 - 06/25/04 08:37 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

99% of civilazations past and present had a much lower standard of living than modern western civilization....revolution? no thanks...chances are we would end up with something worse...

....unfortunatly, revolution or not, our era of technical advance and prosperity will fade in time....

Every civilization has had a golden age, and every golden age to date has ended eventually...and it seems western civilization may be in decline...though these kind of things are hard to see while there happening..


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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2827150 - 06/25/04 09:21 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

I put Revolution because I don't believe the right nor the left have it in them to work together to reform. The problem is, is that what sort of revolution would be good?


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2827234 - 06/25/04 10:09 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

The republicans and democrats will shift their ideals to whatever the people desire so long as they maintain their two-party stranglehold. We need a reawakening of awareness. I would prefer that awareness to lean towards limited, constitutional government reflective of the vision the founding fathers' had for this country.


--------------------
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-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineFrankieJustTrypt
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2827323 - 06/25/04 11:01 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

I'd like to see a revolution leading to a more decentralized power structure. Not this de facto plutocracy. Get rid of a strong centralized government, and you get rid of the chance that that strong centralized government will be manipulated by outside forces.

This country started off well, with presidents like Jefferson and Jackson, they fought for the good of this country, for its ideals. It was fresh back then.

But the old aristocratic powers from europe kept their eyes on the prize, when the founders had passed on, and a new, less vigilant, generation had come to bat, they again tried to bring the US under the umbrella. Slowly they dismantled what made this country special.

Any politician in the last 150 years that has said or done anything against this new quiet power establishment has been shot and/or killed.

I believe the ruling elite believe they have a 'divine right' to rule, and will violently, and without compromise, defend that "right".

Reform doesn't seem likely.


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Offlineuki
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: FrankieJustTrypt]
    #2827385 - 06/25/04 11:33 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

hmmm.. it is interesting that people claim to understand a society that exsisted several thousand years ago. how the hell can some say that lost civilizations were lower in living standards? maybe the modern age of fear and oppression replaced those standards and thats what we believe? if western civilization with all its flaws, disease, war, sickness, fear, denial, and all that other fun stuff is a higher standard of living... i'd like to know what a low standard is.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: uki]
    #2827407 - 06/25/04 11:45 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

uki said:
if western civilization with all its flaws, disease, war, sickness, fear, denial, and all that other fun stuff is a higher standard of living... i'd like to know what a low standard is.


:eek:
Well off the top of my head id say a higher standard -Penicillin, Womens Rights, Literature, Scientific Method, Increased Life spans, Dentistry, Shower/Bath, Farming, increased abstract thought

Surely you dont believe the humans of ancient times lived without "flaws, disease, war, sickness, fear, ?denial?"


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Offlineuki
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: DieCommie]
    #2827427 - 06/25/04 11:53 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

interesting... human used to live like 900 years or more in other ages.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: uki]
    #2827452 - 06/25/04 12:02 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)

I'd love to see you prove that. If not, shut the hell up with the bullshit. End of the world nonsense and biblical garbage are not to be thrown around in this forum. Stick to facts or don't bother.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: uki]
    #2827469 - 06/25/04 12:05 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)

Oh yea i forgot Methuselah  :rolleyes:


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Offlineuki
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: DieCommie]
    #2827519 - 06/25/04 12:18 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

well it's all a matter of faith. prove to me they didn't live 900 years, if not, shut the hell up.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: uki]
    #2827521 - 06/25/04 12:19 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

The burden of proof is on you my friend, you made the claim. That is how logical debate works.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
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Offlineuki
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2827528 - 06/25/04 12:21 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

this isn't a logical debate as i am not a logical person. :smile:


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: uki]
    #2827530 - 06/25/04 12:23 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

uki said:
this isn't a logical debate as i am not a logical person.


Hey i think we finally agree on something


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Offlineuki
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: DieCommie]
    #2827537 - 06/25/04 12:24 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

good, sometimes logic can only be defined by illogical means.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2827553 - 06/25/04 12:29 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
I put Revolution because I don't believe the right nor the left have it in them to work together to reform. The problem is, is that what sort of revolution would be good?



That's what worries me. What kind of revolution would a bunch of rednecks, welfare moms, illegal immigrants, etc. create? We were lucky during the American Revolution to have some of the greatest minds in our history living at that time.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: uki]
    #2827562 - 06/25/04 12:32 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

uki said:
this isn't a logical debate as i am not a logical person. :smile:



A touching display of honesty, but you are only right about the second part.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: uki]
    #2827579 - 06/25/04 12:36 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

uki: stop derailing threads with talk about your ego, please  :wink:


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: uki]
    #2827742 - 06/25/04 01:15 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

this isn't a logical debate as i am not a logical person




This has to be the most logical thing you've said all day.


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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2827795 - 06/25/04 01:28 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

That's what worries me. What kind of revolution would a bunch of rednecks, welfare moms, illegal immigrants, etc. create? We were lucky during the American Revolution to have some of the greatest minds in our history living at that time.




That's where I was getting at. The only revolution I'd be for would be to hold politicians accountable and to ONLY follow what is outlined in the Constitution. It will never happen because there are too many different kinds of people today compared to those during the revolutionary days. They were fighting for ONE purpose, to be free. They didn't give a damn about the trivial things about 99% of Americans worry about.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2827918 - 06/25/04 01:59 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

what about evolution?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: ]
    #2827939 - 06/25/04 02:06 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

takes too long. :smirk:


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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2828053 - 06/25/04 02:40 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

yeah but maybe it's the only way mankind will ever make it to utopia if its possible that is
we aren't perfect and probably never will be so its an endless cycle of mistakes/lessons that can only be learnt from mistakes and lessons


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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: ]
    #2828076 - 06/25/04 02:44 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Well since society is so quick to hide and forget all the bad things that has happened in the past (revising history to be politically correct) evolution is only possible if past experiences are used as a reference. The public "education" today doesn't teach the truth, rather teaches what they wish the truth was.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2828105 - 06/25/04 02:51 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

yep,totally agree


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2828367 - 06/25/04 04:24 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
That's what worries me. What kind of revolution would a bunch of rednecks, welfare moms, illegal immigrants, etc. create? We were lucky during the American Revolution to have some of the greatest minds in our history living at that time.




We can all go our seperate ways, with a divided nation instead of a whole one. It sounds bad, but if we can isolate what people want more specifically, rednecks can have their place and illegal immagrants can have theirs, and all the ones inbetween.

The greatest leaders are the one who dont have a shot to get to the top in our current system, a revolution may bring about some very amazing thinkers of this time.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2828407 - 06/25/04 04:41 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

The public "education" today doesn't teach the truth, rather teaches what they wish the truth was.

In what way? You mean you can't independently verify anything you're taught in public education?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: Redo]
    #2828452 - 06/25/04 04:56 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

We need to break up into many sub-governments,



Right. Let's see.... what shall we call them? Oooohh, I know, we can call them "states".

Sorry if anyone beat me to this but I'm still working my way down through this thread.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: DieCommie]
    #2828694 - 06/25/04 07:03 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

uki said:
if western civilization with all its flaws, disease, war, sickness, fear, denial, and all that other fun stuff is a higher standard of living... i'd like to know what a low standard is.


:eek:
Well off the top of my head id say a higher standard -Penicillin, Womens Rights, Literature, Scientific Method, Increased Life spans, Dentistry, Shower/Bath, Farming, increased abstract thought

Surely you dont believe the humans of ancient times lived without "flaws, disease, war, sickness, fear, ?denial?"




medicine is not a modern industrial creation, nor is literature, nor is science, nor is bathing, nor is farming, NOR IS ABSTRACT THOUGHT.

-Penicillin, womens rights and maybe increased life span i'll give u.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineRedo
CTA

Registered: 04/13/04
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2828940 - 06/25/04 08:59 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Right. Let's see.... what shall we call them? Oooohh, I know, we can call them "states".





States do not have enough flexibility from the federal government.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: BleaK]
    #2829206 - 06/25/04 11:37 PM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

BleaK said:
medicine is not a modern industrial creation, nor is literature, nor is science, nor is bathing, nor is farming, NOR IS ABSTRACT THOUGHT.

-Penicillin, womens rights and maybe increased life span i'll give u.


We are not talking about "industrial creation" we were talking about pre-civilization...My post was comparing the quality of life for nomad tribes and civilization....

Yes ancient peoples before civilization had medicine....but it dosent even come close to the quality of modern medicine....

literature is defiantly a product of civilization! Can you name and hunter gatherer peoples with a written language? Obviously the Egyptians had writing, but there writing was based on pictures not phonetics. Only when a written language based on phonetics was developed did literature come...this was in ancient Greece(id say around 500-1000 BCE)....

by science i meant the scientific method..i should have clarified...but that also was "invented" by the greeks and slowly perfected by other civilizations....

obviously nomad tribes didn't have bathtubs...thus no bathing...

farming is the key to civilization....hunter gatherers dont farm...

abstract thought...now this one is obviously alot more subjective...im not gonna say ancient nomads didnt have abstract thought...but with the start of farming ancient people were allowed more time to think and less to work thus promoting further abstract thought...

Whew kind of a rant there....hope you understand where i was comin from now!


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: Redo]
    #2829247 - 06/26/04 12:01 AM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
States do not have enough flexibility from the federal government.



Thanks to Abraham Lincoln and many other presidents since him. The federal government was originally a federation of independant states, the right to secession was clearly understood and accepted in the original United States.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: DieCommie]
    #2829318 - 06/26/04 12:36 AM (16 years, 20 days ago)

as far as i know u just said ancient...

and this is a thread on reform or revolution... we arent going to revert back THAT far


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: BleaK]
    #2829465 - 06/26/04 02:07 AM (16 years, 20 days ago)

uki brought it up.  he wants to live in a pre-civilization like era.  :shrug:


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
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Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: DieCommie]
    #2831463 - 06/26/04 08:07 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
uki brought it up.  he wants to live in a pre-civilization like era.  :shrug:


]

you sir are a fool.
i just re-read the entire post. uki mentioned nothing of the like.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
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Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: Evolving]
    #2831590 - 06/26/04 09:10 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:


Thanks to Abraham Lincoln and many other presidents since him. The federal government was originally a federation of independant states, the right to secession was clearly understood and accepted in the original United States.




Source?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: Tao]
    #2831654 - 06/26/04 09:44 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
Quote:


Thanks to Abraham Lincoln and many other presidents since him. The federal government was originally a federation of independant states, the right to secession was clearly understood and accepted in the original United States.




Source?



See Articles of Confederation.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: Tao]
    #2831979 - 06/27/04 12:32 AM (16 years, 19 days ago)

"Article II. Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled."
- The Articles of Confederation

****************************************************************

"...to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it...it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. "

"We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do."
- The Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen Colonies
In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776


****************************************************************

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
- US Constitution 9th Amendment


"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."
- US Constitution 10th Amendment

****************************************************************

"The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation and foreign commerce. ... The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives and liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement and prosperity of the State.
- James Madison, in Federalist Paper No. 45

****************************************************************

"In order to ascertain the real character of the government, it may be considered in relation to the foundation on which it is to be established; to the sources from which its ordinary powers are to be drawn; to the operation of those powers; to the extent of them; and to the authority by which future changes in the government are to be introduced.

On examining the first relation, it appears, on one hand, that the Constitution is to be founded on the assent and ratification of the people of America, given by deputies elected for the special purpose; but, on the other, that this assent and ratification is to be given by the people, not as individuals composing one entire nation, but as composing the distinct and independent States to which they respectively belong. It is to be the assent and ratification of the several States, derived from the supreme authority in each State, the authority of the people themselves. The act, therefore, establishing the Constitution, will not be a NATIONAL, but a FEDERAL act.

That it will be a federal and not a national act, as these terms are understood by the objectors; the act of the people, as forming so many independent States, not as forming one aggregate nation... Each State, in ratifying the Constitution, is considered as a sovereign body, independent of all others, and only to be bound by its voluntary act"
- James Madison, in Federalist Paper No. 39

****************************************************************

"If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation ... to a continuance in the union .... I have no hesitation in saying, 'Let us separate.'"
- Thomas Jefferson

****************************************************************

"The assent and ratification of the people,not as individuals composing an entire nation, but as composing the distinct and independent States to which they belong, are the sources of the Constitution. It is, therefore, not a national but a federal compact."
- James Madison

****************************************************************

"The delegates do, in the name and in behalf of the people of Virginia, declare and make known that the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the people of the United States, may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression, and that every power not granted thereby remains with them and at their will."
- State Of Virginia ratification (5 Bulletin of the Bureau of Rolls, 145.) Calhoun's Works, 248-251.

****************************************************************

"That the powers of government may be reassumed by the people whenever it should become necessary to their happiness, that every power, jurisdiction and right which is not by the said Constitution clearly delegated to the Congress of the United States or the departments of the government thereof, remains to the people of the several States, or to their respective State governments, to whom they may have granted the same; and that those clauses in the said Constitution, which declare that Congress shall not have or exercise certain powers, do not imply that Congress is entitled to any powers not given by the said Constitution; but such clauses are to be construed either as exceptions to certain specified powers or as inserted merely for greater caution."
- State of New York delegation (5 Bureau of Rolls, 140-145, 190, 191, 311.)


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineRedo
CTA

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: Evolving]
    #2832069 - 06/27/04 01:09 AM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Wow, I must have missed all of this before, we had to unite like we are today to stop civil wars, however we gave up the founding fathers' idea to share a similar constitution while the rest remains on a state to state basis. Its troubling that the nation we are today has many problems just because we work as a whole on most every topic, instead of the flexibility that we once had to thrive in the best interests.


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
Re: Reform or Revolution? [Re: Evolving]
    #2835428 - 06/28/04 04:05 AM (16 years, 18 days ago)

why wasn't the right to secede enumerated in the constitution then? surely it wasn't 'forgotten'.


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