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336
menehune


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Two Wings of the Same Bird 3
#28253214 - 03/29/23 04:08 PM (9 months, 25 days ago) |
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Have none of us taken psychedelics? Or are we all retarded now? I thought we all realized this political game is a sham and a distraction to keep us oppressed, divided, and conquered. How did we forget this? How have we lost our way so terribly?
-------------------- "Love is seeing the unity under the imaginary diversity."
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tyrannicalrex
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: 336] 1
#28253357 - 03/29/23 05:49 PM (9 months, 25 days ago) |
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Doesn't matter , you should still vote no matter what you "think".
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Lynnch
Strangerer



Registered: 04/29/09
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I took psychedelics.. but I also took too many political science classes. Politics suck, systems of oppression suck, but it also keeps the lights on and food on the table in a dazzlingly complex world...
Society requires some method of maintaining itself, called government, and society is complicated.
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menehune


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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: 336]
#28253396 - 03/29/23 06:16 PM (9 months, 25 days ago) |
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true enough. that said, we should hopefully recognize that a political party is neither an ally or an enemy, and that both parties are lobbied by the corporations and that they represent those interests not ours.
-------------------- "Love is seeing the unity under the imaginary diversity."
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: 336] 1
#28253446 - 03/29/23 06:46 PM (9 months, 25 days ago) |
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The government we have is indeed representative of the populace. You get what you vote for. Pretty sure Americans want an inept (or inefficient), morally cloudy, nationalistic like government.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (03/29/23 06:48 PM)
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336
menehune


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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28253449 - 03/29/23 06:49 PM (9 months, 25 days ago) |
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tbh to me it seems both the left and right want a dictator. so long as the dictator is of their political ideology... which isn't good for any of us when you extrapolate what ends up happening in such situations.
-------------------- "Love is seeing the unity under the imaginary diversity."
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The Ecstatic
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Quote:
tyrannicalrex said: Doesn't matter , you should still vote no matter what you "think".
That’s like saying atheists should still pray
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#28253778 - 03/29/23 09:33 PM (9 months, 25 days ago) |
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Checks out.
Takes minimal effort; there's always the off chance it could yield positive results; should never be your go-to solution.
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Kryptos
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Yeah, I'll pray to whoever once in a while. Did a whole 12 hour session in a buddhist temple the other day. That shit was nuts. Definitely felt divine. Devotional, almost. Or maybe just dehydrational, if I am being entirely honest.
Either way, it was fun. I'd maybe do it again sometime later. Or at least something shorter.
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tyrannicalrex
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The Ecstatic
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Can’t expect someone that doesn’t have faith in the system to participate in it.
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Psilynut2
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#28255889 - 03/31/23 08:46 AM (9 months, 23 days ago) |
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I shouldn't be expected to listen to or take someone's complaints seriously if they don't participate .
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wolf8312
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28255964 - 03/31/23 10:10 AM (9 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
tyrannicalrex said: Doesn't matter , you should still vote no matter what you "think".
That’s like saying atheists should still pray

psilly: Quote:
I shouldn't be expected to listen to or take someone's complaints seriously if they don't participate .
Yeah but it's not like ticking a box (voting) is Mathematics wherein actual experience would facilitate a deeper understanding of the topic! In fact, part of the problem I would argue, is that so many of those who do vote have no understanding of politics whatsoever!
The problems we are seeing today are of our own making. Had the western public truly cared about or comprehended the atrocity that was the War on Terrorism they would also have come to understand the true nature and danger of those we had/have in power (and the true origins of the WOT itself).
But they simply didn't really care about middle easterners and so the gathering threat was (and still is being) allowed to metastasize to the point were it was no longer only a threat to middle easterners.
Unfortunately, just as during the Nazi era, collectively as peoples, that may well prove to be our karmic just deserts.
But to be honest it seems to be an immutable law of human nature IMO. Every 50-100 years or so, as with a chemical reaction, we become highly unstable needing to react/change and settle once more.
This is more than a little worrying in an atomic age though, but on the other hand, I personally have little doubt we'd be in WW3 already were it not for nuclear weapons!
-------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown
Edited by wolf8312 (03/31/23 10:17 AM)
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Psilynut2] 3
#28256134 - 03/31/23 12:32 PM (9 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Psilynut2 said: I shouldn't be expected to listen to or take someone's complaints seriously if they don't participate .
Checking a box every few years and calling it a day hardly qualifies as political participation.
Voting is the bare minimum of civic effort; not the be-all end-all. You don't need to vote to participate in politics - direct action gets the goods.
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Edited by shivas.wisdom (03/31/23 12:38 PM)
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336
menehune


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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: 336]
#28256169 - 03/31/23 12:58 PM (9 months, 23 days ago) |
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If I'm being honest I think the government has been lost to the people since around the time of the great depression; although if we're being honest it was probably never in the hands of the masses, as it has always been controlled by the rich and powerful land owners. the only difference is for the first 100 years or so they had the indians and the blacks to exploit, now they are exploiting everyone.
-------------------- "Love is seeing the unity under the imaginary diversity."
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: 336] 1
#28259898 - 04/02/23 10:57 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Both democrats and republicans are bought and paid for, their advertisers and sponsors profits are their major priority.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28260164 - 04/03/23 08:11 AM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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The notion that the rich have all the power is largely overstated. Certainly, the rich do have some influence beyond the common man, but it isn't nearly as dramatic as people seem to think it is. After all, the top 1% pay more in taxes than the bottom 90% combined. If they had all the power, that wouldn't be the case.
As far as the NRA having influence, that's less about money and more about simply being on the right side of the argument. When reason and statistics are on your side, it's pretty easy to persuade people over the long run. Emotional arguments and parents crying on TV can sway people temporarily, but once you get to the point of taking freedom from millions in order to protect hundreds, it gets harder to sell.
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28260181 - 04/03/23 08:30 AM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Under that logic, there is absolutely no justification for regulating anything.
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28260188 - 04/03/23 08:33 AM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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How do you figure?
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil] 1
#28260196 - 04/03/23 08:39 AM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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DUI laws take away the god given right to drive drunk from millions of Americans to save the lives of hundreds.
Murder laws take away the rights of millions of Americans to murder freely to save the lives of hundreds.
Perhaps I should also point out the logical flaw in your statement: you operate on the assumption that everyone wants a gun. In reality, gun owners are a minority.
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28260201 - 04/03/23 08:44 AM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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To your last point, I said millions. There are millions of gun owners.
To your other points, I agree that DUI laws should not exist. Having said that, DUI laws don't protect "hundreds." Also, as I've pointed out many, many times, it is about balancing freedom with benefit of taking that freedom away. In the case of DUI laws, it is an unjust deprivation of freedom, IMO. It's still not as unjust as a gun ban would be, because at least the infringement is narrowly tailored to a specific issue, and the right to drive and/or drink isn't a fundamental right.
As for murder, 100% of murders result in the death of a human being. Outlawing murder is the most narrowly-tailored way to address the problem
For guns, less than .0001% of guns are ever fired at a human being, if you exclude war which wouldn't play into a gun-control scenario anyway.
Do you sincerely not see the difference? Or are you just making an argument ad absurdium for rhetorical purposes?
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tyrannicalrex
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28260305 - 04/03/23 10:32 AM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: After all, the top 1% pay more in taxes than the bottom 90% combined.
NO, they do NOT! Loopholes and scheming and working the system with people like you (lawyers) gets them out of paying their fair share and you know it.
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Enlil
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What I said is 100% true
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tyrannicalrex
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28260311 - 04/03/23 10:39 AM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Nope.
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Enlil
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Quote:
In 2018, the top 1 percent of taxpayers accounted for more income taxes paid than the bottom 90 percent combined. The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid roughly $615 billion, or 40.1 percent of all income taxes, while the bottom 90 percent paid about $440 billion, or 28.6 percent of all income taxes.
https://taxfoundation.org/federal-income-tax-data-2021/
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28260323 - 04/03/23 10:47 AM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: To your last point, I said millions. There are millions of gun owners.
To your other points, I agree that DUI laws should not exist. Having said that, DUI laws don't protect "hundreds." Also, as I've pointed out many, many times, it is about balancing freedom with benefit of taking that freedom away. In the case of DUI laws, it is an unjust deprivation of freedom, IMO. It's still not as unjust as a gun ban would be, because at least the infringement is narrowly tailored to a specific issue, and the right to drive and/or drink isn't a fundamental right.
As for murder, 100% of murders result in the death of a human being. Outlawing murder is the most narrowly-tailored way to address the problem
For guns, less than .0001% of guns are ever fired at a human being, if you exclude war which wouldn't play into a gun-control scenario anyway.
Do you sincerely not see the difference? Or are you just making an argument ad absurdium for rhetorical purposes?
In order: Millions of gun owners can still be a minority.
Gun laws also do not protect hundreds. Car related deaths and gun related deaths are very comparable, although they are trending in opposite directions, which is why gun deaths outpaced car deaths as of 2020.
I do not understand your point about murder. Before you were framing this as an issue of rights, why are we concerned with what percentage of murders result in deaths? The outcome of a murder is irrelevant when it comes to the right to murder.
Unless of course, the outcome is relevant, in which case, your choice to discount gun related deaths as negligible makes no sense.
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28260325 - 04/03/23 10:48 AM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Where is there a right to murder?
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28260326 - 04/03/23 10:49 AM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Tenth amendment.
Where is there a right to not be murdered?
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28260331 - 04/03/23 10:54 AM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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The tenth amendment doesn't have a right to murder. Reducing murder is legitimate social goal. Do you disagree?
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28260338 - 04/03/23 10:59 AM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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The tenth amendment says that rights not mentioned in the constitution belong to the people. Murder is not mentioned in the constitution.
I would also like to point out that saying "well, I have a right to own guns" is a bit like someone saying "well, I have a right to free speech" when confronted after saying something rock fucking dumb.
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28260340 - 04/03/23 11:02 AM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Yes, people have the right to say stupid shit and to own guns.
There is no right to murder people.
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28260342 - 04/03/23 11:04 AM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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There is no right not to murder people.
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28260363 - 04/03/23 11:31 AM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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There is a right not to be murdered, though. That is a statutory right in every state of this nation.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil] 2
#28260379 - 04/03/23 11:43 AM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
In 2018, the top 1 percent of taxpayers accounted for more income taxes paid than the bottom 90 percent combined. The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid roughly $615 billion, or 40.1 percent of all income taxes, while the bottom 90 percent paid about $440 billion, or 28.6 percent of all income taxes.
https://taxfoundation.org/federal-income-tax-data-2021/
Now do sales tax
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tyrannicalrex
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28260390 - 04/03/23 11:54 AM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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You know damn good and well the richest take loophole liberties and the system is set up so that they actually don't pay, they get some of it/all of it back by claiming donations and all kinds of other things set into the system to give them the money back or keep them from paying their fair share. You KNOW this. Almost everyone knows this, but yet here we are. I could itemize my taxes as a laymen and do a self audit and keep every single receipt and do my taxes that way, but why bother? I get some back and I don't make millions a year.
When I donate items to good will they offer a receipt for claiming a donation to charity so I can get it back at the end of the year on taxes. I see people actually bitching about it in a line to donate sometimes and force them to give a receipt for their donations. Much like huge corps, they don't pay what they should because it's all a good ol' boy backscratching system set up over decades and decades of greedy capitalist corporate fucks! I don't know who the fuck you think you're foolin'. It certainly isn't me. Wasn't there just recent info on trump not paying ANY/zero taxes one year he was prez and only 750 for a couple years each year? Really? billionaire and he only paid 750 or nothing? Puh-leeeze!
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28260412 - 04/03/23 12:05 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: There is a right not to be murdered, though. That is a statutory right in every state of this nation.
Just because there is a statute, that does not make it a right. Rights are inalienable. Statutes are not.
Now that I think about it, I actually cannot find a single statutory right to not be murdered. Plenty about not murdering, but nothing about not being murdered.
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28260501 - 04/03/23 01:02 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Rights can be created by statute just like they can be created by a Constitution. At this point, you're just making nonsense arguments.
The bottom line is that a gun ban will ban 10's of thousands of guns that will never harm a human for each gun that might.
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28260563 - 04/03/23 01:31 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Same with a murder ban.
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28260566 - 04/03/23 01:33 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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No. Completely different. A murder ban will only ban murder and will not ban any conduct that isn't murder. A gun ban will ban the ownership of gun for millions of people who would never have shot anyone.
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28260571 - 04/03/23 01:34 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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So it will harm my right to maybe murder someone in the future, to save a few hundred lives?
Those that are willing to give up their freedoms to purchase a little bit of safety deserve neither.
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28260573 - 04/03/23 01:35 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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No...you will still be free to maybe murder. You will not be free to murder.
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28260576 - 04/03/23 01:36 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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So you're willing to just run roughshod over my god given rights as you see fit?
Tyrant.
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos] 1
#28260601 - 04/03/23 01:45 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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God is a fictional character.
Society works by people giving up some autonomy in exchange for the greater good. I know this stuff is all new to you, so I have to break it down for you.
The first question is whether there is a legitimate societal interest in an issue. Murder has universally been considered bad for social stability, and it has been universally banned since long before the U.S. existed.
After we decide whether the interest is legitimate, we have to decide how much we're willing to give up in order to address that interest. Banning murder gives up nothing but the option of murdering. It's an example of extremely narrow tailoring of regulation.
Now, murdering people is already illegal, but people still get murdered. People get shot in schools, occasionally. The next question is how much more are we willing to give up to reduce this? Are we willing to take from millions of americans a fundamental right that has existed since the founding of this nation? I'm not...maybe you are... Wherever you and I land, there is a legitimate debate to be had.
This is why the NRA has power. They represent the interests of millions of voting age people.
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil] 1
#28260682 - 04/03/23 02:29 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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I'd say they more represent the interests of millions of gun dollars and a few reelection campaigns, but that's about the same as "millions of people".
I think we both know that there will not be any sort of regulation placed on guns, and the only direction US gun law will go in the next two decades is in the direction of more access for more people. Especially with the SCOTUS ruling on historical tradition. I wonder if there's a historical tradition for disarming prisoners? Seems without a specific law on the books, someone that is currently in jail could successfully argue that they should be allowed to keep their guns in jail.
But yes, the fundamental question is how much are we willing to give up to prevent gun violence. It seems like the answer is "nothing".
I'd actually argue that gun violence is a good thing, politically, from a certain perspective. The reality of random violence, or even the threat of random violence, which is statistically perpetrated by a very specific demographic which has very specific political leanings, has an effect on who chooses to speak out.
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28260693 - 04/03/23 02:39 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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The NRA didn't spend a lot of money on campaigns, at least in the grand scheme of things.
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28260696 - 04/03/23 02:42 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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No, they spent money shaping the culture, not the campaign. As a result, guns are often the first response to most situations.
Interestingly enough, spending money in different ways often gets you different results. Sometimes you can spend money one way, and then spend money more efficiently another way.
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28260703 - 04/03/23 02:45 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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This is why democracy needs to be abolished. People are too stupid and easily manipulated.
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28260708 - 04/03/23 02:50 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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...democracy must be abolished because it allows a moneyed minority to dictate the rules under which the majority must live?
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28260712 - 04/03/23 02:52 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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No.
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sudly
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Quote:
tyrannicalrex said:
Quote:
Enlil said: After all, the top 1% pay more in taxes than the bottom 90% combined.
NO, they do NOT! Loopholes and scheming and working the system with people like you (lawyers) gets them out of paying their fair share and you know it.
I mean this is flagrant spin, everyone knows corporations have access to deductions where an entire corporation will pay less tax as a percentage than a nurse.
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28260748 - 04/03/23 03:15 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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"everyone knows" is a great source. I linked a better source, though.
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28260752 - 04/03/23 03:18 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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You missed the point Enlil, do you know what a percentage is? Because you could show that you understood my comment if you wanted to.
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28260757 - 04/03/23 03:22 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Did you read my linked source? Here's another quote:
Quote:
The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 25.4 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than seven times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (3.4 percent).
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil] 1
#28260764 - 04/03/23 03:27 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: The notion that the rich have all the power is largely overstated. Certainly, the rich do have some influence beyond the common man, but it isn't nearly as dramatic as people seem to think it is. After all, the top 1% pay more in taxes than the bottom 90% combined. If they had all the power, that wouldn't be the case.
As far as the NRA having influence, that's less about money and more about simply being on the right side of the argument. When reason and statistics are on your side, it's pretty easy to persuade people over the long run. Emotional arguments and parents crying on TV can sway people temporarily, but once you get to the point of taking freedom from millions in order to protect hundreds, it gets harder to sell.
The power of the wealthy is to create bought and paid for senators and legislators.
If you know how Apple handles their taxes, you know.
The NRA has given hundreds of millions of dollars to senators over time, and itd be naive to think it was out of the goodness of their hearts.
https://elections.bradyunited.org/take-action/nra-donations-116th-congress-senators
Without lobbyist influences we'd have more interesting public discussions around reasonable steps for gun safety like background checks. Maybe the point of safety is gone already, but that's a topic worth debating, without lobbyist sponsorship and advertising.
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28260771 - 04/03/23 03:33 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Of course it isn't out of the goodness of their hearts. The NRA is a membership-driven organization representing the interests of millions of americans.
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28260783 - 04/03/23 03:37 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Did you read my linked source? Here's another quote:
Quote:
The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 25.4 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than seven times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (3.4 percent).
People like Musk can skirt income taxes through loans.
It is what it is right now and I do advocate for using legal tools at hand, but that doesn't mean I won't argue the importance of better regulations and a ban on lobbying to sponsor politicians.
Quote:
How do rich people avoid taxes? Wealthy Americans skirt $160 billion a year in tax payment.
As long as it’s done legitimately and there’s no fraud, I’m okay with it,” said Ed Smith, senior tax and estate planner at Janney Montgomery Scott.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/taxes/2023/02/21/how-do-rich-people-avoid-taxes/11308215002/
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28260787 - 04/03/23 03:39 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Of course it isn't out of the goodness of their hearts. The NRA is a membership-driven organization representing the interests of millions of americans.
The senators they buy represent the profit interests of NRA associated gun manufacturers, not the general public lol.
You ever seen a poll on background checks? Cus it doesn't seem like it from what you're saying.
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28260789 - 04/03/23 03:39 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Eh, there's some debate as to the membership of the NRA. They claim 5 million members, but their free members magazine only send out 3 and change million copies. Seems like a pretty huge oversight that a third of their membership does not get the membership publication.
Still not sure how the wishes of 5 million NRA members overruling the wishes of the other 325 million americans is an example of why democracy is bad (and not an example of the antidemocratic seizure of government rulemaking by monied interests) but you don't seem to be interested in explaining anything past saying that democracy is bad.
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ballsalsa
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28260884 - 04/03/23 04:30 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Don't let him get away with his tricks. Keep him on topic, force him to make a claim and then hammer the claim. If you dont get him it will at least open up other opportunities.

This reminds me of the GMO labeling thread back in the day. That was when I started complaining to my wife about "the fuckin' lawyer", lmao. Pretty sure he made a 1st amendment argument against mandating GMO labeling and ended up in a discussion about the legal threshold for infringing specifically enumerated rights, iirc.
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil] 1
#28260903 - 04/03/23 04:44 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
In 2018, the top 1 percent of taxpayers accounted for more income taxes paid than the bottom 90 percent combined. The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid roughly $615 billion, or 40.1 percent of all income taxes, while the bottom 90 percent paid about $440 billion, or 28.6 percent of all income taxes.
https://taxfoundation.org/federal-income-tax-data-2021/
Of course, income taxes aren't the only kind and very wealthy individuals may be able to obscure, avoid or delay their tax burden by simply being compensated largely through non-cash assets. For those who are compensated largely with currency, we know that they enjoy a huge discount on payroll taxes and nobody can seem to explain why that makes any sense. I'm sure there are loads of examples of regressive taxes in the U.S. I believe that TheEcstatic mentioned sales tax.
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: ballsalsa]
#28260909 - 04/03/23 04:49 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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But you need to stick to the original claim, which was that the rich have bought and paid for the legislature. If that were true, the rich would not have such a high tax burden.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil] 2
#28260951 - 04/03/23 05:22 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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The rich don’t have a high tax burden relative to comparable nations or even our own nation’s history. They’ve shifted the tax burden onto the working class about as much as they can without blowing the whole thing up.
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28260973 - 04/03/23 05:43 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: But you need to stick to the original claim, which was that the rich have bought and paid for the legislature. If that were true, the rich would not have such a high tax burden.
You troll you Enlil.
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: ballsalsa]
#28261024 - 04/03/23 06:12 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: Don't let him get away with his tricks. Keep him on topic, force him to make a claim and then hammer the claim. If you dont get him it will at least open up other opportunities.

This reminds me of the GMO labeling thread back in the day. That was when I started complaining to my wife about "the fuckin' lawyer", lmao. Pretty sure he made a 1st amendment argument against mandating GMO labeling and ended up in a discussion about the legal threshold for infringing specifically enumerated rights, iirc.
It's moments like these that make wandering through the mod complaints forum once in a while oh so enjoyable.
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ballsalsa
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28261186 - 04/03/23 08:25 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: But you need to stick to the original claim, which was that the rich have bought and paid for the legislature. If that were true, the rich would not have such a high tax burden.
Is it high? I might think 40% was cheap if I were raking in 70% of the dough. Do we have any data on that?
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: ballsalsa]
#28261191 - 04/03/23 08:29 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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We know they pay 7 times the tax rate, so clearly they aren't getting 70% of the dough.
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ballsalsa
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28261219 - 04/03/23 08:42 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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I was using dough as a general euphemism for wealth, not income as defined by the tax code, per se
Also, I just threw out a random number higher than 40%, I'm not married to 70
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil] 1
#28261234 - 04/03/23 08:50 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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The only way there could be an average of 3.4% income tax for the bottom 50% is if you include people who earn so little they don't pay tax.
Quote:
The United States operates under a progressive tax code, which means — all things being equal — the more you earn, the more income taxes you owe. (Exceptions apply; we’ll visit that later.) Earned income — income you receive from your job(s) — is measured against seven tax brackets ranging from 10% to 37%.
There are capital gains taxes with a miriad of loopholes, and income taxes extremely wealthy people can avoid entirely.
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28261236 - 04/03/23 08:51 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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A lot of people don't pay income taxes.
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ballsalsa
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28261248 - 04/03/23 09:00 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Mostly broke people.
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28261249 - 04/03/23 09:01 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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You could move to the Bahamas, earn less than 18k a year or live off certain styles of stock trades or loans and pay capital gains taxes instead for sure.
Doesn't mean it isn't worth regulating tax loopholes the ultra wealthy have access to.
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28261264 - 04/03/23 09:19 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Kinda irrelevant to the claim that congress is bought and paid for.
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil] 1
#28261312 - 04/03/23 10:34 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Individuals and corporations who take advantage of tax loopholes, vs the senators and legislators who receive millions in lobbyist sponsorships to enable those loopholes through the legislation they push for.
Now you don't need to be a lawyer to be able to tell the difference here.
An added caveat is that a lot of those corporations or ultra wealthy individuals are the lobbyists, sponsors and purchasers of said Senate or house members.
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28261319 - 04/03/23 10:42 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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And yet, with all of these "loopholes," the top 1% still pays more than the bottom 90% and 7 times the rate of the bottom 50%.
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil] 1
#28261326 - 04/03/23 10:48 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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I mean you're lying about the bottom rate straight up. There is no 3.4% tax rate, those who don't earn enough to pay taxes aren't counted. Elon Musk has an effective tax rate of 3% if you want to bring that to light.
The utmost ultra wealtht don't pay equivalent percentages and you know that. What are you, applying for a job at fox?
Even among the top 1% of earners, there is the top 0.1% and I think they're the main culprits here. The actual elite, not the well off family.
Lobbyists sponsor legislators, legislators enable the tax loopholes, lobbyists and other individuals or groups who can, take advantage of said loopholes.
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28261336 - 04/03/23 10:59 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: I mean you're lying about the bottom rate straight up. There is no 3.4% tax rate.
I didn't say there was. That percentage is from a source I linked. There doesn't have to be a 3.4% tax rate for someone to pay 3.4% One can be in the 10% tax bracket and pay 3.4%. Let's examine this.
If a person makes $19,750, he's in the 10% tax bracket. He gets the standard deduction of $12,950 which reduces his taxable income to $6,800. That is then taxed at 10% or $680. He has paid $680 taxes on $19,750 of income or a rate of 3.4%
Of course, that's not even necessary for the 3.4% figure to be accurate, because that is the average of the bottom 50%, so there are going to be some zeros, some above 10%, etc. It all averages out to 3.4%
Quote:
sudly said:
Lobbyists sponsor legislators
What are you talking about? Lobbyists can't sponsor anyone. Lobbyists can't give money to legislators.
Also, Elon Musk paid an average of 27% for 2013-2018. That 3% figure is just made up. In 2021, Elon Musk paid $11 Billion in taxes.
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28261362 - 04/03/23 11:33 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: And yet, with all of these "loopholes," the top 1% still pays more than the bottom 90% and 7 times the rate of the bottom 50%.
And they are doing their goddamn best to pay less. It is slow work, but the trend is there.
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28261370 - 04/03/23 11:37 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Everyone is doing their best to pay less.
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28261394 - 04/04/23 12:12 AM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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He only had $1250 of taxable income. With no tax on income under $18,500. (Aus standard)
And he still paid whatever his tax bracket was on that taxable income.
That isn't 3.4%, it would be 10% of his taxable income at $125.
You'd only have a point if you included non taxable income, which isn't relevant to the loopholes ultra wealthy people take advantage of.
You know what super PACS are and how lobbyists can contribute to political campaigns with unlimited 'independent' expenditure, don't play dumb.
Again, Musk and others alike had an effective tax rate of 3% or less.
You conveniently left out specific yearly percentages for what musk paid, how he in some years avoided nigh all income tax and lives off loan arrangements because of his wealth.
Or the fact that Tesla didn't pay any federal taxes.
Quote:
Musk's rare big tax bill
Musk has a history of using the US tax code to pay little or no personal federal income taxes. A report from ProPublica shows that for 2018 Musk and many other Americans near the top of the world's richest people paid no income tax.
In Musk's case, he receives no salary from Tesla, only very valuable stock options, as a form of compensation. And under US tax code he doesn't have to pay taxes on those options until he exercises them to buy shares of stock at a fraction of their current value.
Quote:
Elon Musk has repeatedly bragged (or, perhaps, complained) that he'll pay more in federal taxes for 2021 than anyone has ever paid — about $11 billion. But Tesla apparently won't pay a cent.
Tesla may not plan to pay federal taxes any time in the foreseeable future -- even though the company just reported by far its most profitable year ever. In 2021, Tesla recorded net income of $5.5 billion, and adjusted income of $7.6 billion.
But buried in a footnote of its recent annual financial filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission, Tesla reports that its US operations lost $130 million last year on a pre-tax basis. It claims that all of its pre-tax profits — more than $6 billion worth — came from overseas operations, even though 45% of its revenue came from US sales.
Although Tesla indicates its foreign tax bill came to $839 million, its state tax bill was only $9 million. And its federal tax bill was zero.
"That defies common sense, but it does not defy the US tax code," said Martin Sullivan, chief economist for Tax Analysts, a nonprofit tax publisher, and an expert on US corporate tax practices.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/02/10/investing/elon-musk-tesla-zero-tax-bill/index.html
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly] 1
#28261523 - 04/04/23 05:05 AM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Its all legal, there is not one swinging dick that wouldn't report a loss of income/revenue to reduce a tax burden...no Mom and Pop small business or corporate screw.
The only way to change this is to change the tax code; good luck on that as one "simple" change could have disastrous effects on the economy and all but zero politicians are gonna fuck with it...especially when the total dollar amount of collected taxes is at its highest (like 4 trillion)
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Edited by SirTripAlot (04/04/23 05:23 AM)
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28261664 - 04/04/23 07:56 AM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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You've succeeded in showing that you have no clue what you're talking about. You're conflating unrealized gains with income, but they aren't the same at all. Unrealized gains aren't income. If you buy a diamond today, and that diamond is worth twice as much tomorrow, that's not income. If you sell that diamond for a profit, that profit is income.
You're basically advocating that people be taxed on virtual gains. That would mean having to spend real money to pay taxes on speculative income that may or may not actually become real income. If that were how it worked, this would hurt the middle class more than anyone because the rich are able to pay those taxes without selling their capital assets whereas the middle class don't have that kind of savings laying around.
Ultimately, those wealth gains get taxed if they are realized before they lose their value. One way or another, the taxes do get paid on those.
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: SirTripAlot] 1
#28262061 - 04/04/23 01:20 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Its all legal, there is not one swinging dick that wouldn't report a loss of income/revenue to reduce a tax burden...no Mom and Pop small business or corporate screw.
The only way to change this is to change the tax code; good luck on that as one "simple" change could have disastrous effects on the economy and all but zero politicians are gonna fuck with it...especially when the total dollar amount of collected taxes is at its highest (like 4 trillion)
Just things like regulating stress tests for banks with $50 billion in value would be good, like how it used to be before being moved up to $200 billion.
Would have prevented SVB from being caught without enough liquidity to survive a pull out.
Politicians don't fuck with that if theyve be taken millions from lobbyists for the banking sector.
That's the kind of regulation that would do quite the opposite of collapsing or having disastrous effects on the economy.
The mom and pop businesses aren't exactly handing off all their revenue to a tax haven abroad with a shell company now are they.
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tyrannicalrex
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28262088 - 04/04/23 01:38 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Thank you sudly! I didn't have the knowledge to put it into words! I just know it's true from gleaning bits of info over the years here and there.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28262127 - 04/04/23 02:04 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Its all legal, there is not one swinging dick that wouldn't report a loss of income/revenue to reduce a tax burden...no Mom and Pop small business or corporate screw.
The only way to change this is to change the tax code; good luck on that as one "simple" change could have disastrous effects on the economy and all but zero politicians are gonna fuck with it...especially when the total dollar amount of collected taxes is at its highest (like 4 trillion)
Just things like regulating stress tests for banks with $50 billion in value would be good, like how it used to be before being moved up to $200 billion.
Would have prevented SVB from being caught without enough liquidity to survive a pull out.
Politicians don't fuck with that if theyve be taken millions from lobbyists for the banking sector.
That's the kind of regulation that would do quite the opposite of collapsing or having disastrous effects on the economy.
The mom and pop businesses aren't exactly handing off all their revenue to a tax haven abroad with a shell company now are they.
Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Its all legal, there is not one swinging dick that wouldn't report a loss of income/revenue to reduce a tax burden...no Mom and Pop small business or corporate screw.
The only way to change this is to change the tax code; good luck on that as one "simple" change could have disastrous effects on the economy and all but zero politicians are gonna fuck with it...especially when the total dollar amount of collected taxes is at its highest (like 4 trillion)
Just things like regulating stress tests for banks with $50 billion in value would be good, like how it used to be before being moved up to $200 billion.
Would have prevented SVB from being caught without enough liquidity to survive a pull out.
Politicians don't fuck with that if theyve be taken millions from lobbyists for the banking sector.
That's the kind of regulation that would do quite the opposite of collapsing or having disastrous effects on the economy.
The mom and pop businesses aren't exactly handing off all their revenue to a tax haven abroad with a shell company now are they.
Our economy is almost entirely financialized.
You force banks to have enough liquidity to cover all deposits then you’re basically waving a giant fan at this fractional reserve banking house of cards we are perpetually constructing.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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You make sure banks have enough liquidity not to fail..
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28262139 - 04/04/23 02:09 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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As Ecstatic said, that would require 100% liquidity. There is always a chance for a bank to fail otherwise.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil] 1
#28262143 - 04/04/23 02:11 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: You've succeeded in showing that you have no clue what you're talking about. You're conflating unrealized gains with income, but they aren't the same at all. Unrealized gains aren't income. If you buy a diamond today, and that diamond is worth twice as much tomorrow, that's not income. If you sell that diamond for a profit, that profit is income.
You're basically advocating that people be taxed on virtual gains. That would mean having to spend real money to pay taxes on speculative income that may or may not actually become real income. If that were how it worked, this would hurt the middle class more than anyone because the rich are able to pay those taxes without selling their capital assets whereas the middle class don't have that kind of savings laying around.
Ultimately, those wealth gains get taxed if they are realized before they lose their value. One way or another, the taxes do get paid on those.
You can choose to defer taxes like that if you're well off enough already.
Quote:
Democrats want to impose a new tax on America’s wealthiest by taxing unrealized capital gains similar to other types of income— a major change to how those assets have been taxed historically.
Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR), chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, introduced legislation on Wednesday requiring taxpayers with more than $1 billion in assets or more than $100 million in annual income for three consecutive years to pay taxes on unrealized capital gains.
“There are two tax codes in America,” Wyden said in a statement on Wednesday. “The first is mandatory for workers who pay taxes out of every paycheck. The second is voluntary for billionaires who defer paying taxes for years, if not indefinitely.”
The so-called “Billionaires Income Tax” would apply to around 700 taxpayers and raise “hundreds of billions of dollars,” according to the proposal, which comes as Democrats discuss ways to fund their reconciliation package over the next decade
https://www.google.com/amp/s/au.finance.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/democrats-unveil-billionaires-tax-on-unrealized-capital-gains-131232669.html
There are legitimate business deductions and then there are loopholes to put all you profits in an overseas shell account or company to dodge federal taxes.
You haven't said much about that.
I also advocate for restrengthening the IRS after they've been gutted to be unable to handle as many wealthy people.
Increased wages to take the burden off welfare payments for workers not earning enough.
Quote:
Millions of Americans work full time yet are still impoverished, their wages so low that they qualify for federal health care and food assistance programs even though many of them are employed by the biggest and most profitable U.S. companies.
Because those companies don’t pay their workers a living wage, taxpayers are forced to foot the bill for daily necessities those employees can’t afford to buy themselves. In short, corporate America is pawning off the cost of rock-bottom wages on taxpayers.
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-03-18/who-helps-pay-amazon-walmart-and-mcdonald-s-workers-you-do
I also advocate for removing unlimited independent expenditure for super PACS to give to political campaigns.
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28262150 - 04/04/23 02:13 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Of course you do.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28262153 - 04/04/23 02:15 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: As Ecstatic said, that would require 100% liquidity. There is always a chance for a bank to fail otherwise.
Consumer protection has its merits, especially when the risky gambling fails and the bank gets bailed out by tax payers anyway.
A liquidity test is useful to see if a bank has overstretched their resources and what risks they might be facing. To see how balanced their liquidity profile is.
Quote:
Liquidity stress testing: Considers a financial institution’s ability, in the absence of market or funding liquidity, to meet obligations during periods of stress by accurately measuring the liquidity profile of the balance sheet at an enterprise-wide level
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28262157 - 04/04/23 02:16 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Of course, but that still doesn't guarantee no failure
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28262160 - 04/04/23 02:17 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: As Ecstatic said, that would require 100% liquidity. There is always a chance for a bank to fail otherwise.
Could always make it illegal to withdraw your money
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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Isn't Lebanon trying that and now people are robbing banks to withdraw their own money?
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#28262165 - 04/04/23 02:19 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
Enlil said: As Ecstatic said, that would require 100% liquidity. There is always a chance for a bank to fail otherwise.
Could always make it illegal to withdraw your money 
Or nationalize banking. No need for liquidity when you're backed by the full faith and credit of the United States of Fucking America.
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28262169 - 04/04/23 02:22 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
Enlil said: As Ecstatic said, that would require 100% liquidity. There is always a chance for a bank to fail otherwise.
Consumer protection has its merits, especially when the risky gambling fails and the bank gets bailed out by tax payers anyway.
A liquidity test is useful to see if a bank has overstretched their resources and what risks they might be facing. To see how balanced their liquidity profile is.
Quote:
Liquidity stress testing: Considers a financial institution’s ability, in the absence of market or funding liquidity, to meet obligations during periods of stress by accurately measuring the liquidity profile of the balance sheet at an enterprise-wide level
SVB didn't do the risky gambling itself, the herd mentality of the silicon valley entrepreneur did the risky gambling by making SVB the only bank you could use if you wanted VC funding.
VC funding is a bit like presidential elections: extremely superstitious. Someone eats at a diner and wins an election, every candidate will eat at that diner from now on. Someone uses a specific bank and gets funded? Every entrepreneur will use that bank from now on.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28262184 - 04/04/23 02:27 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
Enlil said: As Ecstatic said, that would require 100% liquidity. There is always a chance for a bank to fail otherwise.
Could always make it illegal to withdraw your money 
Or nationalize banking. No need for liquidity when you're backed by the full faith and credit of the United States of Fucking America.
That’s the logical move, but then there’d be a shitload of capital flight, plummeting tax revenues, and a slump in the value of the dollar.
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tyrannicalrex
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...because the greed trumps everything. People want their billion, never mind they can have 500 million, they want that fucking billion, period!
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28262203 - 04/04/23 02:39 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Of course, but that still doesn't guarantee no failure
Seatbelts don't guarantee survival either
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The Ecstatic
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Quote:
tyrannicalrex said: ...because the greed trumps everything. People want their billion, never mind they can have 500 million, they want that fucking billion, period!
It’s one of many examples of the inherent flaws of capitalism.
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28262213 - 04/04/23 02:45 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
Enlil said: As Ecstatic said, that would require 100% liquidity. There is always a chance for a bank to fail otherwise.
Consumer protection has its merits, especially when the risky gambling fails and the bank gets bailed out by tax payers anyway.
A liquidity test is useful to see if a bank has overstretched their resources and what risks they might be facing. To see how balanced their liquidity profile is.
Quote:
Liquidity stress testing: Considers a financial institution’s ability, in the absence of market or funding liquidity, to meet obligations during periods of stress by accurately measuring the liquidity profile of the balance sheet at an enterprise-wide level
SVB didn't do the risky gambling itself, the herd mentality of the silicon valley entrepreneur did the risky gambling by making SVB the only bank you could use if you wanted VC funding.
VC funding is a bit like presidential elections: extremely superstitious. Someone eats at a diner and wins an election, every candidate will eat at that diner from now on. Someone uses a specific bank and gets funded? Every entrepreneur will use that bank from now on.
They didn't diversify enough outside of the tech sector and took on risky loans that eventually devalued with inflation, hence the scurry for investors to pull out.
A pullout that SVB didn't have a strong enough liquidity profile to withstand.
A liquidity profile that wasn't strong enough to survive a pull out because of deregulation on the minimum bank value for requiring liquidity stress tests.
They weren't wearing their seatbelts because they lobbied to have them removed.
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly] 1
#28262221 - 04/04/23 02:48 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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They parked their money in T bonds.
They literally took the safest possible bet in financial history. They did the equivalent of having a federally backed treasury run bank account. There was literally no way that they could be any less risky while still operating as a bank.
And they were the victim of a bank run, triggered by SV herd mentality.
The only thing SVB could have done differently is started to refuse customers because the customers were all SV tech bros. But that would not have reduced the risk, because their customer base would still have been tech bros.
Actually, with full hindsight, the correct course of action for SVB would be to assume more risk and put their investments in less safe financial instruments, because their cash flow problems started from the Tbond returns not being as high as interest rates. They took so little risk they went broke.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28262481 - 04/04/23 05:36 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Had they been liquidity tested, they may not had have to do a fire sale for the long term bonds, they took the risk of not selling them off earlier.
Quote:
Silicon Valley Bank locked billions of dollars away into 10 year bonds. But there were risks it wasn't seeing.
Risk #1: Access. Those billions were now locked up for years. It wouldn't be easy to get that money in an emergency.
Risk #2: Interest rates. When interest rates started going up, the market value of Silicon Valley Bank's bonds went down.
That's because the bank bought its government bonds before interest rates started going up. The price you get from bonds is directly tied to interest rates. When interest rates go up, the market price of older bonds goes down because new bonds pay out higher interest rates.
When rates started climbing quickly, the price of Silicon Valley Bank's bonds tumbled.
Risk #3: Really, really rich customers. When rumors started up about the bank, customers panicked and and started pulling their money out. Because they were rich individuals and companies, that meant multi-million, even multi-billion dollar accounts cashing out all at once.
Silicon Valley Bank needed a lot of cash fast. But, of course, a lot of its cash was locked up in 10 year bonds. Now it had to try and sell those now to get cash.
Government Bond Fire Sale
That's where the interest rate risk bit Silicon Valley Bank: Trying sell those second hand, low interest rate bonds at a moment when all the new bonds being issued paid out far more was not easy.
"Now, that same bond and the yield would be about 20 times higher," says Mark Williams. "So, to encourage investors to even think about your old bond, you would have to discount it."
Discount as in, a fire sale.
Silicon Valley Bank took huge losses selling off its bonds, and more investors panicked and pulled out their money. Williams says it was a bank run on a scale the U.S. hadn't seen since the Great Depression.
"In a single day last week, depositors knocked on the door and pulled 41 billion depositor dollars out," says Williams. "That's about a quarter of their total deposits. No bank, no matter how strong, could ever survive that sort of withdrawal... that sort of run on the bank
https://www.npr.org/2023/03/19/1164531413/bank-fail-how-government-bonds-turned-toxic-for-silicon-valley-bank
The risks they took were mismanagement and a gamble for a bigger payout that didn't work out.
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ballsalsa
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28262491 - 04/04/23 05:43 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Look at the last line there in your quoted excerpt
Quote:
No bank, no matter how strong, could ever survive that sort of withdrawal... that sort of run on the bank
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: ballsalsa]
#28262537 - 04/04/23 06:18 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: Look at the last line there in your quoted excerpt
Quote:
No bank, no matter how strong, could ever survive that sort of withdrawal... that sort of run on the bank
SVB didn't have enough diversity from their funding sources, which is the kind of mismanagement that puts a bank like SVB at risk if things change, like they did.
They put too many of their eggs in one basket, and lobbied to deregulate their own stress testing. They relied on long term bonds that were susceptible to interest hikes and didn't act as soon as they could have.
Quote:
Another common theme in financial accidents is bad management. For example, in the early 1990s in the savings and loan crisis it was poor asset-liability management. The GFC was caused by many parties failing to adequately perform their roles in the mortgage finance process—appraisers, rating agencies, mortgage underwriters, financial engineers, regulators. It is clear to everyone now that SVB’s business strategy left it relying on a deposit base concentrated in a relatively homogeneous type of commercial customer. This lack of diversified funding sources was compounded by SVB’s portfolio asset allocations. Treasurys and Agencies might not carry credit risk, but they are exposed to market risk that has hit like a sledgehammer during the Fed’s aggressive 450 basis points of rate hikes over the past year.
https://www.guggenheiminvestments.com/perspectives/portfolio-strategy/svb-replays-ugly-consequences-of-disintermediation
If they had diversified their funding sources, this may have played out differently.
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: ballsalsa]
#28262540 - 04/04/23 06:20 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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To paraphrase:
Risk 1: SVB recognized that half their customers were gambling, and took out loans that were incredibly safe, and therefore, not easily liquefied.
Risk 2: SVB recognized that interest rates only went in one direction for 40 years, and they assumed that would remain the case, as did literally everybody.
Risk 3: A bunch of rich SV tech bros did a bank run because they were all so smart they saw the failure first and withdrew their money en masse. A panic that is entirely unpreventable without collapsing banking as a concept, much less a system.
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28262543 - 04/04/23 06:22 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: SVB didn't have enough diversity from their funding sources,
In other words, their customers were all the same. Are you blaming SVB for not attracting diverse enough customers?
Is a business responsible for the demographics of their customer base, and should a business be punished if their customer base isn't diverse enough?
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28262550 - 04/04/23 06:26 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Go back and focus on the lack of stress test. Raising the threshold from 50B to 250B is the only reason that SVB collapsed swo publicly, if they had undergone a stress test they likely would have branched out into more risky investments, and that probably would have saved the bank. Unless the bank run still happened, banks are fundamentally not capable of surviving a bank run.
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ballsalsa
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28262551 - 04/04/23 06:26 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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That's a good point though. If they had acquired or developed a regional retail banking arm they could have offset some of those withdrawals with the deposits of hapless Joe Blows putting their paychecks in on Friday. Weren't they only insolvent by like, 1 billion?
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: ballsalsa] 2
#28262558 - 04/04/23 06:28 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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hell, crypto speculation would have given them access to musketeer lolcash, probably on margin, to cover the difference.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28262816 - 04/04/23 09:11 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
sudly said: SVB didn't have enough diversity from their funding sources,
In other words, their customers were all the same. Are you blaming SVB for not attracting diverse enough customers?
Is a business responsible for the demographics of their customer base, and should a business be punished if their customer base isn't diverse enough?
They're responsible for how they invest.
Quote:
What Is a Diversified Fund?
A diversified fund is an investment fund that is broadly invested across multiple market sectors, assets, and/or geographic regions. It holds a breadth of securities, often in multiple asset classes. Its broad market diversification helps to prevent idiosyncratic events in one area from affecting an entire portfolio.
Diversified funds refer to pooled investments that build portfolios across several asset classes, regions, and/or industry sectors.
Diversification is a key investment strategy for reducing systematic risk in a portfolio while maintaining levels of expected return.
Diversified funds can range in focus from passive indexed funds that replicate broad indices to actively managed funds that invest broadly.
Overall, diversified funds are mindful of both unsystematic and systematic risks. They seek to mitigate these risks through their broad diversification. Since unsystematic risks are often sector-specific they can be alleviated by multi-sector investing. Funds broadly diversified across regions may also be able to manage against some market-wide systematic risks that are inherent to a particular country or region.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/diversifiedfund.asp
I did mention and do agree the increased threshold from 50b to 250b was also an issue.
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28262854 - 04/04/23 09:33 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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So...your argument is that SVB should have been more reckless with investor money? Yes, I agree, in hindsight that would have been the correct course of action.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28262892 - 04/04/23 10:26 PM (9 months, 18 days ago) |
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It astounds me how you came to that conclusion, but whatever floats your goat man.
I think they were already plenty reckless, and having some more diversity in what they were investing in could have mitigated the risks of having too many eggs in one basket.
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28262897 - 04/04/23 10:42 PM (9 months, 18 days ago) |
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Again, I reiterate. Their eggs were in T bonds. That is the basket that makes up the backbone of the global economy.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28262927 - 04/04/23 11:21 PM (9 months, 18 days ago) |
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And that basket of long term 10 year government bonds were susceptible to changing interest rates.
Maybe they didn't think interest rates would change like they did, but that's one of the risks they took, and they didn't have the diversification to outlast it, or the balance of liquidity to survive it.
SVB wasn't as prepared as they could have been and I think that's the point.
And if you think being woke had anything to do with it you can define what you think woke means.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
Edited by sudly (04/04/23 11:31 PM)
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lifeiswhatyoumake
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: 336]
#28267000 - 04/07/23 02:17 PM (9 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
336 said: tbh to me it seems both the left and right want a dictator. so long as the dictator is of their political ideology... which isn't good for any of us when you extrapolate what ends up happening in such situations.
Nope. Where did you get the idea from that the Democrats want a dictator? Seriously.
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sudly
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I got the idea they want to maintain the effective Oligarchy the US is in from their historical trends of legislatively favouring corporate profits over human welfare.
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Kryptos
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That's not even remotely close to a dictator.
Quote:
lifeiswhatyoumake said:
Quote:
336 said: tbh to me it seems both the left and right want a dictator. so long as the dictator is of their political ideology... which isn't good for any of us when you extrapolate what ends up happening in such situations.
Nope. Where did you get the idea from that the Democrats want a dictator? Seriously.
OP is an enlightened centrist/republican who doesn't want to admit they're republican.
Like the No Labels party. They insist that they're not trying to run a pro-GOP spoiler campaign...but their own internal polling shows Trump winning with 33% to Biden's 28% after their party takes 20%. And they keep calling both Trump and Biden "far right/left" extremists, and claim that they will provide a sensible and moderate alternative...to Biden. The guy that keeps asking republicans for permission to take a shit.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos] 1
#28267164 - 04/07/23 04:09 PM (9 months, 16 days ago) |
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Yknow, members of all parties, or independents alike, can recognise there is currently a system of governence that has a lot of room for improvement with things like universal healthcare that woukd save the US economy $5 trillion over 10 years. I also think members of all groups can see that there are a set of representative elites that don't effectively represent their constituencies.
If anyone is trying to make a statement that Biden is anywhere left of centre or comparative to Bernie Sanders in a meaningful and legislative way, then it's imperative for them to be able to point to one progressive policy decision they have implemented that is the same.
Biden ran on wanting a public option for healthcare, but has hasn't represented his constituency in that regard yet.
He spoke favourably of a public option, and hasn't entertained the idea seriously since.
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Edited by sudly (04/07/23 04:17 PM)
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ballsalsa
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28267237 - 04/07/23 04:53 PM (9 months, 16 days ago) |
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And won't
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly] 1
#28268282 - 04/08/23 07:45 AM (9 months, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Yknow, members of all parties, or independents alike, can recognise there is currently a system of governence that has a lot of room for improvement with things like universal healthcare that woukd save the US economy $5 trillion over 10 years. I also think members of all groups can see that there are a set of representative elites that don't effectively represent their constituencies.
If anyone is trying to make a statement that Biden is anywhere left of centre or comparative to Bernie Sanders in a meaningful and legislative way, then it's imperative for them to be able to point to one progressive policy decision they have implemented that is the same.
Biden ran on wanting a public option for healthcare, but has hasn't represented his constituency in that regard yet.
He spoke favourably of a public option, and hasn't entertained the idea seriously since.
You have to understand that Biden ran on VETOING universal healthcare, and then coincidentally won the democratic primary.
Floating a public option at this point is saying “we need to take another look at marijuana” or “we need to act on climate change.” It’s something you never intend on actually doing but you have to say something about so the critics to your left can’t say “Biden wants to maintain the status quo on healthcare!” Because now some koods-esque figure can say “that’s Russian disinformation! Biden has called for a public option! He’s practically a socialist on healthcare!”
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#28268834 - 04/08/23 04:08 PM (9 months, 15 days ago) |
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Biden's base wants universal healthcare yo.
Oooh scary socialism! What are firetrucks and roads anyway?
There are blendable options of good ideas from capitalism and socialism.
Biden is a neo-liberal corporatist and his voting record espouses that blatantly.
Duck Joe Biden for spewing bull through his shit eating grin for votes, and I hope some day we find someone who will represent the constituency that voted them in on a more federal scale.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly] 1
#28268915 - 04/08/23 05:10 PM (9 months, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Biden's base wants universal healthcare yo.
Since when has that mattered?
Quote:
Oooh scary socialism! What are firetrucks and roads anyway?
Not socialism.
Quote:
There are blendable options of good ideas from capitalism and socialism.
Nah. Using tax dollars to subsidize the shortcomings of capitalism isn’t socialism, and saying using collectivism to offset the most extreme excesses of capitalism represents a “good balance” is like saying the firefighter having a job due to the arsonist proves there’s a good blend from the two. We actually don’t need the arsonist at all, and the firefighter would be much more effective if he wasn’t scrambling to put out intentionally started infernos all the time.
Quote:
Biden is a neo-liberal corporatist and his voting record espouses that blatantly.
100% why absolutely nobody should believe him when he says he’s for a public option when he’s trying to convince voters to choose him over the universal healthcare guy.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Public option is a half assed tease to appease the base and bait them into voting for him.
The problem is that he doesn't act as though he runs a representative democracy and people can see that more clearly nowadays.
Government tax allocation to social services and infrastructure are some elements of socialism we blend to make a good capitalistic society.
Sometimes our representatives choose to allocate or distribute federal funds unevenly, and I think systemic changes to redistribute wealth are important to discuss.
Biden is all for corporate socialism in bailing our banks that gamble on risky stocks and bonds.
I think corporate socialism is prioritised over social welfare in regard to Biden's agenda in policy making decisions.
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28269162 - 04/08/23 08:16 PM (9 months, 15 days ago) |
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If only we had a functional left party.
Ya know, in a two party system, as one disintegrates...
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos] 1
#28269296 - 04/08/23 09:27 PM (9 months, 15 days ago) |
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Yeah, but instead there's corporate democrats and corporate republicans that only disagree on whether their rockets need rainbow stickers or not.
They all agree to privatise the gains and socialise the losses.
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Milleresque
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28269467 - 04/09/23 01:30 AM (9 months, 14 days ago) |
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To the OP:
Thank you. Thank you a thousand times over.
I just got done scrolling through five pages of arm chair, hypocritical, uneducated, paltry, supine, outraged and outright biased rubbish in the Ukraine war thread. It’s begun flowering here too.
Plenty of topics and distractions and egos wanting to press their measly two cents into the muck, so they can sleep better at night or feel more whole, more sure and sound and intelligent than the person they just “took down”.
Don’t read me wrong—I really know what’s going on, just ask me.
But when Im honest ie aware of my faults and failures and I’ve read up on them and I know what the collective I’ve been born into has done to others, at base who am I to point the finger at another and virtue signal for riches, when love is truly the currency of the soul?
I hope all of those so given over to news cycles and editorial influence and narrative, without awareness of the full functions of their intelligence agencies—comprised albeit in part, by personages lacking all conscience, care and consideration for truth—remain humble, knowing that a keyhole is not a horizon, that a sliver caught beneath the blindfold does not count for all that is.
And yet we babble to prove ourselves the right.
It’s pathetic.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Milleresque] 1
#28269473 - 04/09/23 01:51 AM (9 months, 14 days ago) |
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You spoke at length, but I'm still not clear on what your point was
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Ice9
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Milleresque]
#28269573 - 04/09/23 06:18 AM (9 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Milleresque said: Don’t read me wrong—I really know what’s going on, just ask me.
Writes a big long post about being self aware and includes this line.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly] 1
#28269625 - 04/09/23 07:25 AM (9 months, 14 days ago) |
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I don’t like the term corporate socialism because it implies that socialism is “whenever you need a government bailout for making bad decisions.”
Privatizing the gains and socializing the losses is just capitalism. We don’t need to try to trick the boomers into thinking it’s socialism.
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Milleresque
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Ice9]
#28270061 - 04/09/23 02:19 PM (9 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Ice9 said:
Quote:
Milleresque said: Don’t read me wrong—I really know what’s going on, just ask me.
Writes a big long post about being self aware and includes this line.

Apologies for my immense sarcasm not coming out strongly enough.
And I did have a point but er I was rather hazy last night and it may have been forgotten.
No! Wait! I think I was merely just agreeing with the op. Politics and political bickering “I’m right and godamnit you will see how wrong you are” on and on…on the whole it just gets us bound in knots, self divisive, exclusionary, delirious with an entirely inflated sense of our own ultimately influenced and imperfect intellects. Myself included. I look back and what I believed 10 years ago and how wrong I was. And how, hopefully, what I believe today will also be gone and proven wrong. Because psychedelics, amongst a great many other things, teach you that nothing is real, all is permissible, the truth is what Is and what Is is always changing.
I think for those of us who dabble in these things would do well to remember the insights the revelation of belief, which is to say that just because you believe a thing doesn’t make it true. It’s your side, it’s how you were raised, it’s the ego’s security blanket against the very real notion that none of us have the slightest idea of what is ultimately true.
We are lied to every day, and we pay to be lied to. Practising something akin to Robert Anton Wilson’s maybe logic would go a long way toward preventing so much needless and at times lethal division.
Edited by Milleresque (04/09/23 02:22 PM)
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#28270213 - 04/09/23 05:20 PM (9 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: I don’t like the term corporate socialism because it implies that socialism is “whenever you need a government bailout for making bad decisions.”
Privatizing the gains and socializing the losses is just capitalism. We don’t need to try to trick the boomers into thinking it’s socialism.
Being against corporate socialism is when you don't think a bank that managed itself into failure through risk taking and gambling should be bailed out with tax payer funds again.
Universal healthcare is not a bailout for making bad decisions, it is a human right to have and a way for the government to effectively spend the tax funds they receive to benefit everyone in the country, cutting out the rapacious for profit middle man of the current American healthcare system.
I don't like use of the word socialism without any understanding of what it is or what it involves and how it's integral to a well functioning society.
Our societies aren't separately capitalist or socialist. There's a spectrum and blend of what works from the two.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28270377 - 04/09/23 07:39 PM (9 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Our societies aren't separately capitalist or socialist. There's a spectrum and blend of what works from the two.
How do you figure?
What’s socialist about our societies?
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#28270505 - 04/09/23 10:04 PM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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He's already implied that he thinks universal healthcare is a socialist policy, so he clearly had no clue what socialism is.
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil] 1
#28270542 - 04/09/23 11:04 PM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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Universal healthcare is often associated with democratic socialism because it aims to provide healthcare as a right to all citizens, regardless of their ability to pay. Democratic socialism generally advocates for greater public ownership and control of essential goods and services, including healthcare, to ensure that everyone has access to them.
However, it is important to note that universal healthcare is not exclusive to democratic socialism. Many other political ideologies, including liberalism and social democracy, also support the idea of universal healthcare. In fact, many countries with universal healthcare systems are not considered to be democratic socialist, but rather have a mix of capitalist and socialist policies.
Universal healthcare is just one policy that is often associated with socialism, as socialists typically believe that access to healthcare is a basic human right and should not be subject to market forces. universal healthcare does not necessarily require collective or government ownership and control of the means of production. It can be achieved through a variety of models, such as single payer systems or mixed public private systems, and can coexist with a capitalist economic system. Universal healthcare is therefore just one policy that can be pursued under various political ideologies, including socialism, social democracy, and liberalism.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28270800 - 04/10/23 07:41 AM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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Yeah, that’s the point: public spending isn’t socialism.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#28271328 - 04/10/23 04:05 PM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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Universal healthcare systems can be considered as policies that have both socialist and capitalist elements. On the one hand, they involve a government run or heavily regulated system that aims to provide healthcare coverage to all citizens regardless of their ability to pay. This can be seen as a socialist policy that seeks to ensure a basic level of healthcare as a public good.
On the other hand, many universal healthcare systems also involve private healthcare providers and insurance companies, allowing for competition and choice within the system. This can be seen as a capitalist element that allows for market forces to play a role in the healthcare system.
Therefore, universal healthcare can be seen as a policy that blends elements of both socialist and capitalist ideologies.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
Edited by sudly (04/10/23 06:04 PM)
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thetruthsohelp
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: That’s like saying atheists should still pray
In times of war, the usually do.
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lifeiswhatyoumake
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Quote:
thetruthsohelp said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: That’s like saying atheists should still pray
In times of war, the usually do.
Sure, because they are scared. Lots of people believe in God and religion because they are scared of life and what happens after it otherwise. It's just a coping mechanism based on a delusion.
--------------------
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thetruthsohelp
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Hubris. I don't think anyone can be 100% certain that God or the afterlife does or doesn't exist. But I respect the view of others if they can't believe unless they have irrefutable evidence. The whole point in there not being atheists in a foxhole means not that when confronted by death there is fear and fear leads to caving into to some delusion, but when confronted by the fact of the mortality of the flesh, we have no idea whether the immaterial conciosuness/soul lives on with the demise of our psyscial matter and/or at the bare miminum we wish there might indeed be some higher power in the universe that can save us from obvlivion. Thats not delusion, thats called finding hope in a hopeless place.
I disgress however, this is after all the political section.
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Kryptos
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And then there's people that don't cave to delusion in times of stress.
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lifeiswhatyoumake
Trance in my sig n blood



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Quote:
thetruthsohelp said: Hubris. I don't think anyone can be 100% certain that God or the afterlife does or doesn't exist. But I respect the view of others if they can't believe unless they have irrefutable evidence. The whole point in there not being atheists in a foxhole means not that when confronted by death there is fear and fear leads to caving into to some delusion, but when confronted by the fact of the mortality of the flesh, we have no idea whether the immaterial conciosuness/soul lives on with the demise of our psyscial matter and/or at the bare miminum we wish there might indeed be some higher power in the universe that can save us from obvlivion. Thats not delusion, thats called finding hope in a hopeless place.
I disgress however, this is after all the political section.
I get what you're saying and agree with some of it. I don't give a fuck if you believe in a flying spaghetti monster, a fifty-dicked mermaid, or a white-guy in the sky with a beard, as long as you don't let it influence scientific decisions like abortion, because scientific decisions are based on reality and are provable using the scientific method, which is the way humans gather information on our surroundings and learn.
If believing in a God and afterlife isn't a delusion then why are people who think they're being stalked by shadow people said to be having a delusion? Either they are both delusions or they are both not. Both are just as provable as the other.
--------------------
  I dropped a trance track "Peace Love & Trance": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4uQBM-mRYU ;   
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Reincarnation or the afterlife are as of yet beyond the reach of what is scientifically observable.
To even suggest an afterlife means bringing supernatural forces into the picture, and that requires a substantial piece of evidence to bring forward.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28271964 - 04/10/23 09:31 PM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Universal healthcare systems can be considered as policies that have both socialist and capitalist elements. On the one hand, they involve a government run or heavily regulated system that aims to provide healthcare coverage to all citizens regardless of their ability to pay. This can be seen as a socialist policy that seeks to ensure a basic level of healthcare as a public good.
There is no socialist element to universal healthcare. Healthcare is not a good. It is a service. Government services are a part of every government on the planet. It's not a socialist policy in any way.
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nooneman


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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: 336] 2
#28272023 - 04/10/23 09:52 PM (9 months, 13 days ago) |
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I've heard this argument that the two parties are the same a number of times, and it's always weird. There are tons of important issues that the two parties are on polar opposite sides of:
Gun rights vs banning guns, banning abortion vs. allow it and making it super easy, private healthcare you have to pay for vs. the government paying for healthcare, public schools vs. private schools, supporting unions vs banning unions, privatizing/ending the post office vs funding it, raising taxes vs lowering taxes, drilling for oil vs protecting the environment, putting religion in schools vs. keeping religion out of schools, pro-LGBT vs anti-LGBT, this is just off the top of my head. I could keep going.
How much of a rock are you living under that you don't even realize that virtually every major important political idea the parties are on opposite sides of?
Inevitably the times I have heard this argument, I then hear people go on to talk about some extreme ideology, and how it'd be so much better than what we have. The parties themselves are already pretty extreme, so count me out on that one. One of the best parts of democracy IMO is that it keeps the extremist elements of both sides in check.
Some people think that everything has a simple answer, and if we just tried their one simple answer hard enough and to an extreme enough degree then all our problems would be solved. I wish they could see how much more complex the world is than that. If there were simple answers to all the world's problems like that, our problems would already be solved by now.
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: nooneman] 1
#28272025 - 04/10/23 09:55 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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I'm not sure where you live, but what party is in favor of banning guns? What party is in favor of government-paid healthcare?
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: nooneman]
#28272053 - 04/10/23 10:29 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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That's all rhetoric lol, no corporate dem gives a hoot about meaningful gun control.
Women's rights are one difference, Repubs don't want them, and dems don't fight for them.
No corporate dem wants a public option or universal healthcare. 'Obama care' was effectively written by Mitt Romney.
Not 100 on who suppprts the public vs private schools, but private schools are getting a shit load more funding.
Biden showed he doesn't give a hoot for unions either, tried to give the railroad workers crumbs then forced them to accept.
The biggest bull here is Dems not loving fossil fuel lobbyists. What a joke!
Mr Manchin himself will tell you too.
The post office is a service.. maybe that's one some corporate dems are good with but I haven't seen much of a fight for it.
Another load of crap is lower and higher taxes. Dems want lower taxes on the wealthiest with higher on the poor. Another sick joke.
Hey I guess dems aren't fighting for the 10 amendments to be in every classroom like some Repubs are right now, but I'll wait for the outcome on that one.
One big difference is lgbt, because dems want their money too.
From what I gather Corporate Dems differ from Republicans in not minding the post office, being okay with rainbow flags and maybe finding public schools more.
Any other differences are rhetoric to sell themselves to populist crowds.
The system of healthcare America has right now is far more complicated, burdensome, paperwork intensive and expensive than a universal system equivalent.
It's extreme in America the fact that it doesn't have universal healthcare, that's an absolutely extreme policy that leads to billions in waste and tens of thousands of people dead and in debt.
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: nooneman]
#28272082 - 04/10/23 11:16 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said: Gun rights vs banning guns, banning abortion vs. allow it and making it super easy, private healthcare you have to pay for vs. the government paying for healthcare, public schools vs. private schools, supporting unions vs banning unions, privatizing/ending the post office vs funding it, raising taxes vs lowering taxes, drilling for oil vs protecting the environment, putting religion in schools vs. keeping religion out of schools, pro-LGBT vs anti-LGBT, this is just off the top of my head. I could keep going.
The nice thing about being a young white guy without kids who grew up middle class is that...basically none of that shit matters. Literally none of those issues are important to a young white guy.
As such, I find that a lot of centrists are white guys in their early to mid 20s.
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mushboy
modboy



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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28272087 - 04/10/23 11:24 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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its called being a spoiled brat.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28272138 - 04/11/23 01:22 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
sudly said: Universal healthcare systems can be considered as policies that have both socialist and capitalist elements. On the one hand, they involve a government run or heavily regulated system that aims to provide healthcare coverage to all citizens regardless of their ability to pay. This can be seen as a socialist policy that seeks to ensure a basic level of healthcare as a public good.
There is no socialist element to universal healthcare. Healthcare is not a good. It is a service. Government services are a part of every government on the planet. It's not a socialist policy in any way.
Healthcare is a human right in most developed nations.
It is the government funded aspect of the Australian healthcare system that emphasises the socialist policy. With private health insurance that also exists as an option for additional coverage as the capitalist policy.
Just because someone is on the left or a Democrat doesn't mean they're supposed to kiss the ass of the powerful on the left or the democratic party, they're supposed to challenge them to actually do the right thing.
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28272318 - 04/11/23 06:38 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Calling healthcare a human right is meaningless. Unless someone is willing to actually perform healthcare services, no one can count on that "right." Also, it's entirely unenforceable. Let me ask you this: If a doctor refuses to treat you, how do you force him to do so?
I don't know why you keep repeating yourself, but the government paying for services is not, and never has been, a socialist policy.
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tyrannicalrex
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos] 1
#28272432 - 04/11/23 08:17 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
nooneman said: Gun rights vs banning guns, banning abortion vs. allow it and making it super easy, private healthcare you have to pay for vs. the government paying for healthcare, public schools vs. private schools, supporting unions vs banning unions, privatizing/ending the post office vs funding it, raising taxes vs lowering taxes, drilling for oil vs protecting the environment, putting religion in schools vs. keeping religion out of schools, pro-LGBT vs anti-LGBT, this is just off the top of my head. I could keep going.
The nice thing about being a young white guy without kids who grew up middle class is that...basically none of that shit matters. Literally none of those issues are important to a young white guy.
As such, I find that a lot of centrists are white guys in their early to mid 20s.
Unless you happen to be lgbtq, hurt in a severe auto accident or workplace accident, need a dentist (you WILL need one one day), have a chronic illness that needs meds and therapy the rest of your life, chronic pain from any accident, plan on having kids, mail things frequently, live in an area that starts drilling for oil or natural gas and takes all your mineral rights from under you no matter what you say and destroys your immediate environment/water supply/air you breathe, are agnostic and don't believe other people should force an ideology of religion on your kids in school or yourself, etcetera...
These things should matter to you and you should vote accordingly. That's part of the problem(s). Apathy and disinterest in important things because it doesn't seem to directly effect/affect you in any way, but it does. I used to think it didn't matter either.
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Kryptos
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Yeah, these things should matter to you.
My point is that these things matter differently to different people. For example, let's pick abortion. I've been a young white guy, and the first time I ever seriously thought about abortion was the first time I paid for one. Even then, the people around me, and society as a whole, told me I was going above and beyond and that I should have just ghosted her ass instead of paying for her abortion. If I had to hazard a guess, I'm guessing every single woman on the planet has seriously considered the intricacies of abortion (assuming she knows about it) prior to age 16.
Much like how black men learn about racism around age six, while white men learn about racism if they choose to learn about it.
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tyrannicalrex
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28272887 - 04/11/23 01:33 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Went through 3 myself. (That I know of). I consider myself VERY lucky and it was all agreed to by me and the girls at the time. True that those things can be/are subjective to certain degrees but overall they still can and do affect/effect everyone.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil] 1
#28272972 - 04/11/23 02:40 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Enlil said: Calling healthcare a human right is meaningless. Unless someone is willing to actually perform healthcare services, no one can count on that "right." Also, it's entirely unenforceable. Let me ask you this: If a doctor refuses to treat you, how do you force him to do so?
I don't know why you keep repeating yourself, but the government paying for services is not, and never has been, a socialist policy.
Calling healthcare a human right means that everyone should have access to healthcare services without facing financial hardship or discrimination.
There are countries where healthcare is considered a human right and is provided as a public service like Canada, and the UK. Doctors have legal and ethical obligations to provide care, and refusing to do so without a justifiable reason could result in consequences for them.
Doctors have guidelines, and legal requirements to care for patients.
The US military has socialised healthcare, but not the general population. It would be good to see some form of single payer or universal healthcare in the US, and it would save the economy $5 trillion over 10 years by cutting out the for profit middle man of health insurance companies that effectively practice medicine without a licence when they reject medical treatments that doctors approve.
Quote:
What is the difference between socialized medicine and universal healthcare?
Socialized medicine is one kind of system that delivers universal health care services. In socialized medicine, the government pays for health care and operates the hospitals. Other health care systems like single payer, also deliver universal health care. The government purchases health care services from private providers in single payer systems.
So, both public and private systems can deliver universal health care coverage. Sometimes, a combination of the two works to deliver health care to all.
For example, Canadian Medicare is a publicly governed system that provides universal coverage. Canada uses single-payer health insurance.
https://www.mvhca.org/blog/is-universal-healthcare-socialism
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28273000 - 04/11/23 02:56 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Healthcare cannot possibly be a human right because not everyone has access to healthcare.
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos] 1
#28273006 - 04/11/23 03:00 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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In Canada, the UK, Australia, and every developed country outside of the US, in some form or another, WE DO!
It could be in the US too but dickwads like corporate dems and the repubs are bought and paid for by the lobbyists of pharmaceutical and health insurance companies to advocate against it.
Universal healthcare would save $5 trillion over 10 years for the US economy.
Ass claps like Biden don't even give a hoot enough to nationally regulate drug prices and stop flagrant price gouging for medicines like insulin. The US is one of the only countries that doesn't allow the government to negotiate drug prices either.
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Edited by sudly (04/11/23 03:05 PM)
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ballsalsa
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: nooneman]
#28273055 - 04/11/23 03:16 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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nooneman said: I've heard this argument that the two parties are the same a number of times, and it's always weird. There are tons of important issues that the two parties are on polar opposite sides of:
Gun rights vs banning guns, banning abortion vs. allow it and making it super easy, private healthcare you have to pay for vs. the government paying for healthcare, public schools vs. private schools, supporting unions vs banning unions, privatizing/ending the post office vs funding it, raising taxes vs lowering taxes, drilling for oil vs protecting the environment, putting religion in schools vs. keeping religion out of schools, pro-LGBT vs anti-LGBT, this is just off the top of my head. I could keep going.
How much of a rock are you living under that you don't even realize that virtually every major important political idea the parties are on opposite sides of?
Inevitably the times I have heard this argument, I then hear people go on to talk about some extreme ideology, and how it'd be so much better than what we have. The parties themselves are already pretty extreme, so count me out on that one. One of the best parts of democracy IMO is that it keeps the extremist elements of both sides in check.
Some people think that everything has a simple answer, and if we just tried their one simple answer hard enough and to an extreme enough degree then all our problems would be solved. I wish they could see how much more complex the world is than that. If there were simple answers to all the world's problems like that, our problems would already be solved by now.
Wedge issues are incredibly important for the parties because
1. They are intractable (or might as well be). This allows for divergent rhetoric without the need to deliver. Nobody on the right wing side actually expects abortions to be banned nationwide and nobody on the center-right actually expects the Dems to codify abortion rights into law.
2. They have no or little bearing on the vast majority of people's material conditions. This means that even if one side does deliver on some culture war issue, nothing fundamentally changes for the ruling class. No material concession need be made. It doesn't cost anything to let trans people piss in the restroom of their choice whereas single payer healthcare would decimate the profit margins of major political donors, for example.
Now, obviously there are rhetorical differences between the parties and any wedge issue may very well be important, if only to those directly effected by it, but it's important to look past what they say and examine what they do. For example, what did the democrats do when they had the Presidency and a supermajority in Congress? Did they force Single-payer through? Did they codify gay marriage as a right? Did they legislate on abortion? No. They passed Mitt Romney's healthcare plan on a national level.
And that really does tell the whole tale. The Dems are either
A) perennially inept at politics to a degree that would defy belief Or B) complicit
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: ballsalsa]
#28273078 - 04/11/23 03:30 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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1. Nobody on the right wing side actually expects abortions to be banned nationwide..
Even Marjorie Green may have thought this, but there are a lot of republicans trying to ban abortions nation wide, especially with the recent federal court fiasco of banning abortion pills, and talk of removing access to plan B nationally.
Plenty of republicans definitely want and are fighting for a national abortion ban.
I think some are realising it's not a popular move though.
2.
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28273084 - 04/11/23 03:31 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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The federal government doesn't have the power to ban abortion nationwide.
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lifeiswhatyoumake
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28273198 - 04/11/23 04:56 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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sudly said: Calling healthcare a human right means that everyone should have access to healthcare services without facing financial hardship or discrimination.
Bingo. It is that simple at its core. Enlil, perhaps you're overthinking it a bit.
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Enlil
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Every right has a countervailing right. If healthcare is a human right, someone has to be forced to perform that healthcare.
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lifeiswhatyoumake
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28273206 - 04/11/23 05:00 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Yea, the doctors and nurses would still provide that and get paid by the government.
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would?
They don't now. So, how do we make it so they will without forcing people to do that? If it's a human right, that means we need healthcare for 8 billion people.
On a planet with billions without access to a toilet, I don't see how we get healthcare for everyone without using force.
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28273223 - 04/11/23 05:13 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Enlil said: The federal government doesn't have the power to ban abortion nationwide.
A federal judge did just that and ruled against being able to access abortion medication.
Quote:
In his April 7 decision, Judge Matthew Kacsmaryk of the Northern District of Texas ruled in favor of Alliance Defending Freedom -- a conservative Christian legal advocacy group -- that asked him to reverse the U.S. Food and Drug Administration's approval of mifepristone, an oral medication typically taken with misoprostol to end a pregnancy.
The advocacy group's lawsuit said mifepristone is unsafe and that the FDA didn't study it closely enough before approving its use. The FDA and mainstream medical doctors insist this isn’t true, and that there have been no safety concerns during the 23 years the drug has been on the market.
Now, Kacsmaryk's issuing of a nationwide injunction on mifepristone -- set to take effect by Friday -- may impact as many as 64 million women of childbearing age in the U.S.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/goodmorningamerica.com/amp/wellness/story/federal-judge-bans-abortion-pill-ruling-means-women-97876799
And then a federal judge ruled to protect access to the drug.
Quote:
In Texas, a federal judge is halting the FDA's more-than-20-year-old approval of the drug mifepristone, one of the main medications used to provide abortions. But less than an hour later, a conflicting court ruling out of Washington state. A judge there ordered the federal government to protect access to the drug in 17 Democratic-led states and the District of Columbia.
The two decisions are the most significant abortion ruling since the U.S. Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade last summer.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/conflicting-rulings-by-federal-judges-leaves-state-of-abortion-pill-in-limbo
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28273226 - 04/11/23 05:15 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Why do you lie so much, dude? No federal judge has banned abortion. If you ever made an intellectually honest point, I'd be shocked.
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28273245 - 04/11/23 05:26 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: would?
They don't now. So, how do we make it so they will without forcing people to do that? If it's a human right, that means we need healthcare for 8 billion people.
On a planet with billions without access to a toilet, I don't see how we get healthcare for everyone without using force.
What are you asking? How will doctors see their patients?
Universal healthcare systems are a decision nations make for themselves, and one they implement over a few years.
Some countries consider healthcare a human right, this isn't rocket science.
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28273249 - 04/11/23 05:27 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Why do you lie so much, dude? No federal judge has banned abortion. If you ever made an intellectually honest point, I'd be shocked.
A federal judge just ruled to prevent access to abortion medication effectively attempting to ban abortions nationwide.
If you don't understand that then it says more about you than anything else.
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28273250 - 04/11/23 05:27 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:
Universal healthcare systems are a decision nations make for themselves, and one they implement over a few years.
Human rights don't vary by nation. That's why they're "human" rights. If a country considers healthcare a human right, that country must ensure that every human on the planet has healthcare.
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28273253 - 04/11/23 05:29 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
Enlil said: Why do you lie so much, dude? No federal judge has banned abortion. If you ever made an intellectually honest point, I'd be shocked.
A federal judge just ruled to prevent access to abortion medication effectively attempting to ban abortions nationwide.
If you don't understand that then it says more about you than anything else.
I'm not the one who doesn't understand it. Nothing in that ruling banned abortions in any part of the nation.
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil] 1
#28273260 - 04/11/23 05:32 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Calling healthcare a human right means that everyone should have access to healthcare services without facing financial hardship or discrimination.
Hey, at least you don't try very hard to make your points 
Countries that consider healthcare a human right provide it to all their citizens.
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28273261 - 04/11/23 05:34 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
Enlil said: Why do you lie so much, dude? No federal judge has banned abortion. If you ever made an intellectually honest point, I'd be shocked.
A federal judge just ruled to prevent access to abortion medication effectively attempting to ban abortions nationwide.
If you don't understand that then it says more about you than anything else.
I'm not the one who doesn't understand it. Nothing in that ruling banned abortions in any part of the nation.
The ruling banned abortion pills..
You can't be serious
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28273277 - 04/11/23 05:39 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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He is serious, he's a lawyer, supposedly.
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28273283 - 04/11/23 05:41 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Countries that consider healthcare a human right provide it to all their citizens.
That doesn't sound like a human right at all. That sounds like a citizen's right.
Quote:
sudly said: The ruling banned abortion pills..
Yeah, exactly. Not abortion.
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28273298 - 04/11/23 05:48 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:
Countries that consider healthcare a human right provide it to all their citizens.
That makes it a right of citizens...not a human right.
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lifeiswhatyoumake
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil] 1
#28273300 - 04/11/23 05:49 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Enlil said: would?
They don't now. So, how do we make it so they will without forcing people to do that? If it's a human right, that means we need healthcare for 8 billion people.
On a planet with billions without access to a toilet, I don't see how we get healthcare for everyone without using force.
Things would change so that anyone can just walk into a hospital and get treated if they have an emergency and they won't have to worry about paying, which we all know is a big hindrance to lots of people in actually going to the hospital when they need to.
For normal doctor appointments, you could just call a doctor near you and set up an appointment. They would have to help you or they'd be suspended or whatever.
Well, yea I do wish all 8 billion could have free healthcare, but first we can get it done in the USA. Aren't we like the only first world nation that doesn't have free healthcare for citizens?
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28273309 - 04/11/23 05:52 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
sudly said: Countries that consider healthcare a human right provide it to all their citizens.
That doesn't sound like a human right at all. That sounds like a citizen's right.
Quote:
sudly said: The ruling banned abortion pills..
Yeah, exactly. Not abortion.
More specifically, ONE abortion pill.
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Enlil
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Quote:
lifeiswhatyoumake said:
Quote:
Enlil said: would?
They don't now. So, how do we make it so they will without forcing people to do that? If it's a human right, that means we need healthcare for 8 billion people.
On a planet with billions without access to a toilet, I don't see how we get healthcare for everyone without using force.
Things would change so that anyone can just walk into a hospital and get treated if they have an emergency and they won't have to worry about paying, which we all know is a big hindrance to lots of people in actually going to the hospital when they need to.
For normal doctor appointments, you could just call a doctor near you and set up an appointment. They would have to help you or they'd be suspended or whatever.
Well, yea I do wish all 8 billion could have free healthcare, but first we can get it done in the USA. Aren't we like the only first world nation that doesn't have free healthcare for citizens?
First world doesn't matter if it's a human right. Every human on the planet would have healthcare. That isn't the case, though, and it can't be without forcing people to provide healthcare.
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lifeiswhatyoumake
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil] 1
#28273329 - 04/11/23 05:58 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
sudly said: Countries that consider healthcare a human right provide it to all their citizens.
That doesn't sound like a human right at all. That sounds like a citizen's right.
Quote:
sudly said: The ruling banned abortion pills..
Yeah, exactly. Not abortion.
More specifically, ONE abortion pill.
Yea, but let's not lie to ourselves in thinking Republicans aren't trying to go for the whole enchilada. Let's look at recent events and what is likely to happen next:
HAS HAPPENED: 1. Overturned Roe vs Wade 2. Banned (attempted ban?) mifepristone, which is used for more than half of abortions.
LIKELY TO HAPPEN: 3. Ban the rest of the abortion pills 4. Total abortion ban
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28273330 - 04/11/23 05:58 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
lifeiswhatyoumake said:
Quote:
Enlil said: would?
They don't now. So, how do we make it so they will without forcing people to do that? If it's a human right, that means we need healthcare for 8 billion people.
On a planet with billions without access to a toilet, I don't see how we get healthcare for everyone without using force.
Things would change so that anyone can just walk into a hospital and get treated if they have an emergency and they won't have to worry about paying, which we all know is a big hindrance to lots of people in actually going to the hospital when they need to.
For normal doctor appointments, you could just call a doctor near you and set up an appointment. They would have to help you or they'd be suspended or whatever.
Well, yea I do wish all 8 billion could have free healthcare, but first we can get it done in the USA. Aren't we like the only first world nation that doesn't have free healthcare for citizens?
First world doesn't matter if it's a human right. Every human on the planet would have healthcare. That isn't the case, though, and it can't be without forcing people to provide healthcare.
Really depends on your theory of rights, the founding fathers had a theory of negative rights whereas in Europe and other places there is more emphasis on positive rights, the distinction being inalieble rights referring to basic freedoms vs a right to products, goods and services doled out at the behest of the state.
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Enlil
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Quote:
lifeiswhatyoumake said:
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
sudly said: Countries that consider healthcare a human right provide it to all their citizens.
That doesn't sound like a human right at all. That sounds like a citizen's right.
Quote:
sudly said: The ruling banned abortion pills..
Yeah, exactly. Not abortion.
More specifically, ONE abortion pill.
Yea, but let's not lie to ourselves in thinking Republicans aren't trying to go for the whole enchilada. Let's look at recent events and what is likely to happen next:
HAS HAPPENED: 1. Overturned Roe vs Wade 2. Banned (attempted ban?) mifepristone, which is used for more than half of abortions.
LIKELY TO HAPPEN: 3. Ban the rest of the abortion pills 4. Total abortion ban
As i said earlier, the federal government doesn't have the power to ban abortion
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lifeiswhatyoumake
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28273336 - 04/11/23 06:05 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Could they not add a new amendment to the Constitution that bans abortion somehow?
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Kryptos
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Absolutely, but that requires 34 states to agree.
The much more likely option is a tortured twisting of the constitution into fetal personhood. The judge K-something that just banned abortion pills refusing to use the word "fetus", instead preferring "unborn human" in his opinion banning the first abortion pill hints heavily at this pathway.
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil] 1
#28273342 - 04/11/23 06:07 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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America forces people to pay excessive premiums and deductibles that other countries like Australia don't have.
Universal healthcare means our taxes are used to pay for our healthcare.
Hospitals aren't forced to provide care outside of continuing to do their regular jobs. They have priorities and waiting lists for certain injuries or procedures too.
Human rights, citizen rights whatever you want to call it, everyone should have access to healthcare services without facing financial hardship or discrimination. One nation at a time.
And with the federal ruling to ban access to an abortion medication, it makes it harder for millions of women to have safe and accessible abortions. It reduces their options and is one step towards a national ban on abortions.
Some bills have even been proposed to ban the morning after pill.
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28273470 - 04/11/23 07:36 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Universal healthcare is a great idea. Calling it a human right is empty rhetoric.
Federal bans on certain drugs are commonplace. Calling that an abortion ban is empty rhetoric.
The more you engage in dishonest debate, the less credible you are.
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil] 1
#28273552 - 04/11/23 08:45 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Universal healthcare is a great idea. Calling it a human right is empty rhetoric.
Federal bans on certain drugs are commonplace. Calling that an abortion ban is empty rhetoric.
The more you engage in dishonest debate, the less credible you are.
In Australia it is considered a human right, or at the very least treated as though it is one.
Not sure why you're so held up on the semantics and not the substance which I have made clear, but you seem to agree it's good so that's good.
The drug has been proven safe for over 20 years with millions of women using it. Banning it makes it harder for millions of women to access safe abortions.
It's one part of the Republican attempt to nationally ban abortions, and at this point if you think I mean it is a federal ban on abortion, and not one step on the way to a federal ban on abortion, that would be intellectually dishonest on your part.
Bill by bill there are attempts to limit women's rights, limit their access to abortions, punish others for helping them and in a lot of states outright banning it.
Whether its from states or federal courts, the intent is clear.
A Republican controlled Senate or presidency could also pass legislation to restrict or ban abortions on a federal level, the caveat being it would likely face legal challenges that would ultimately depend on the interpretation of the constitution by the courts.
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28275913 - 04/13/23 01:41 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Universal healthcare is a great idea. Calling it a human right is empty rhetoric.
Federal bans on certain drugs are commonplace. Calling that an abortion ban is empty rhetoric.
The more you engage in dishonest debate, the less credible you are.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: 336] 1
#28275923 - 04/13/23 01:47 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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Great job ignoring all the context I've provided
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336
menehune


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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28275943 - 04/13/23 02:03 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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I just read what you said, I still agree with Enlil on this one. Ironically I don't think either of us disagrees with you so. More so he is pointing out how you could probably leave the emotion out of your point while maintaining your position and perhaps finding a compromise between you and your opposition.
Or at least that is my stance. I think we need to realize that we have to compromise sometimes. I say we should allow the states to run themselves as they wish, and allow people to leave those states if they so wish, and the federal government should intervene in such legislation as much as possible, so long as such legislation does not interfere with The Constitution. Some people believe a certain way, and there really is no point trying to force them to change. That never works, it only emboldens their resistance against you.
-------------------- "Love is seeing the unity under the imaginary diversity."
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: 336]
#28275960 - 04/13/23 02:15 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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Specifics would be appreciated for which points I should, 'leave the emotion out of'.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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336
menehune


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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28275968 - 04/13/23 02:20 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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Everything. 
In a way, I'm talking to myself right now as much as I am you.
-------------------- "Love is seeing the unity under the imaginary diversity."
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tyrannicalrex
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: 336]
#28275986 - 04/13/23 02:30 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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The problem with some states/peoples beliefs are that they fuck with what should be because of fear and ignorance and non tolerance. Some peoples/states do not ever want to progress to the future, they are quite comfy in their ignorance and holier than thou fear of god horse shit. Yes, this is full of emotion. I second that emotion!
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: 336]
#28276004 - 04/13/23 02:40 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
336 said: Everything. 
In a way, I'm talking to myself right now as much as I am you.
Leaves have stomata.. I think it's reasonable to be able to discern emotion from observation and I would appreciate it if you could point to a single point I've made you think is emotional.
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336
menehune


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Quote:
tyrannicalrex said: The problem with some states/peoples beliefs are that they fuck with what should be because of fear and ignorance and non tolerance. Some peoples/states do not ever want to progress to the future, they are quite comfy in their ignorance and holier than thou fear of god horse shit. Yes, this is full of emotion. I second that emotion!
Perhaps you are right, but trying to force someone to change is impossible. It's like a Christian trying to convert a homosexual into being straight. This is one of the great things about the US having many states with near-autononomy, it allows for those who believe a certain way to rule themselves a certain way, and it it allows those to disagree to move to another state that more agrees with them. However, when the federal government gets involved in denying rights that are guaranteed by the constitution that is where a problem comes into play, as well as when states do so, though to less of a degree. The only way forward is compromise, and we have to except that some people will never agree with us. Unless we propose that we should eradicate all those who disagree with us, the only other option is to compromise.
What I find interesting and comical about America is how essentially both parties have become puritanical (at least on the surface level propaganda, because in reality, they all work for the NWO MIC) in contrasting ways in regards to social issues.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: 336] 1
#28276037 - 04/13/23 02:59 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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In regards to abortion, compromise often means limiting or eliminating the reproductive rights of women, which is not fair or just. Even compromising by allowing abortions only in certain circumstances denies individuals the right to make choices about their own bodies and futures, and fails to address the multiple reasons why people seek abortions.
The issue of abortion rights is fundamentally about bodily autonomy and gender equality, and compromising on these rights is not reasonable or fair to women. Any compromise that restricts or denies these rights is a violation of women's basic human rights.
Roe V Wade was the compromise that treated women's autonomy and rights fairly.
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336
menehune


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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28276051 - 04/13/23 03:11 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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You mean like the government and corporations forcing people to be vaccinated with experimental shit that had barely been tested?
I get your point, two wrongs don't make a right, but there is always the option to move to another state or country. It might suck, but the matter of the fact is, if the majority of people in an area believe something there is little point trying to force them to comply with the minority belief in that area. Luckily for America, there are many states that 'represent' both sides of the spectrum. I just wish we were more concerned about the real issues afflicting our society and world, vis-a-vis wealth inequality and neo-slavery.
-------------------- "Love is seeing the unity under the imaginary diversity."
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tyrannicalrex
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: 336]
#28276065 - 04/13/23 03:20 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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Not expecting anyone to enforce people to change, just tolerate and let live side by side. When a person/state thinks that someone different from what they believe/think is right, try to change it to their beliefs/ways and will not/do not accept them, then that creates MAJOR problems in the usa. The lgbt+ community isn't trying to change anyone's mind, they just want acceptance IMHE. Progress into the future will be sex changes whenever someone feels like it no matter what, abortion for anyone no matter what even if they want to use it as birth control IMHE once again. God, guns, gays, and ganja are 4 of the major issues that hold us back as a society/country.
You seriously think that a person should be arrested and charged for murder for an abortion in a state that votes that way mostly? You seriously think someone should be thrown in jail for crossing into a state that allows it from a state that doesn't? How the fuck would they enforce that? Border walls around every single fucking stAte?!?! That's some crazy fucked up berlin wall fascist horse fuck and I don't want it ANYWHERE in this country! Why the fuck is it OK to suppress and control people due to some fucking book? WTAF?!?!
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336
menehune


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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: 336]
#28276112 - 04/13/23 04:04 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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You're missing the point my friend. People disagree. If the majority of the people in your state disagree with you. Move. That's it. It doesn't matter what is fair or just or whatever, the real world doesn't give a fuck about that shit. My advice would be for left-leaning people to move to left-leaning states and vice versa. At least for the foreseeable future. When people can live in a state that they don't disagree with when it comes to social issues, then perhaps all the states can then begin to unite and focus on more important issues that are affecting the majority of the population of the US and the world. That being wealth inequality and neo-slavery as a result of corrupt monopoly capitalism. And let's be honest the left is not pushing for 'acceptance' they are pushing for dominance. Don't delude yourself my friend. That said, it is no different for the right.
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tyrannicalrex
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: 336]
#28276239 - 04/13/23 05:32 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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I see your point. I agree on the capitalists and corporatism thing for sure. Just moving isn't a viable option for a lot of people. Why should people move from the beach in Fla (or anywhere else that's been home for a few generations of families etc) just because right wing christian nationalists are trying to taker it over? It is an endless and seemingly futile discussion/argument no doubt.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: 336] 1
#28276240 - 04/13/23 05:34 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
336 said: You mean like the government and corporations forcing people to be vaccinated with experimental shit that had barely been tested?
I get your point, two wrongs don't make a right, but there is always the option to move to another state or country. It might suck, but the matter of the fact is, if the majority of people in an area believe something there is little point trying to force them to comply with the minority belief in that area. Luckily for America, there are many states that 'represent' both sides of the spectrum. I just wish we were more concerned about the real issues afflicting our society and world, vis-a-vis wealth inequality and neo-slavery.
The Covid vaccine is the most tested vaccine around with billions of people being fine. People can have allergic reactions to paracetamol too.
People had the freedom not to be vaccinated, and companies had the right not to put themselves or their employees at risk of catching a highly infectious disease.
My point is that it's important to recognize that people's individual beliefs and opinions should not infringe on the rights of others. The government has a responsibility to protect the rights of all individuals, especially those who are marginalized or vulnerable. In the case of reproductive rights, limiting or denying these rights is a violation of women's basic human rights and should not be up for compromise or debate.
The right to bodily autonomy and gender equality, as well as the right to access healthcare, are fundamental human rights that should be protected and upheld.
It's not fair or just to suggest that people should have to uproot their lives and communities to have their basic human rights protected.
It's also of note that the majority of people support reproductive rights and access to safe and legal abortions.
Calling healthcare a human right is as common a term as a vegemite sandwich. It's pretty simple really, and weird imo anyone would extrapolate that to a global conquest.
Obviously universal healthcare requires a transition plan and there are various forms it can take.
I appreciate honesty and being upfront, and to me it sounds like there is minimisation of women's rights.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: 336] 1
#28276249 - 04/13/23 05:40 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
336 said: You're missing the point my friend. People disagree. If the majority of the people in your state disagree with you. Move. That's it. It doesn't matter what is fair or just or whatever, the real world doesn't give a fuck about that shit. My advice would be for left-leaning people to move to left-leaning states and vice versa. At least for the foreseeable future. When people can live in a state that they don't disagree with when it comes to social issues, then perhaps all the states can then begin to unite and focus on more important issues that are affecting the majority of the population of the US and the world. That being wealth inequality and neo-slavery as a result of corrupt monopoly capitalism. And let's be honest the left is not pushing for 'acceptance' they are pushing for dominance. Don't delude yourself my friend. That said, it is no different for the right.
It's ironic you suggest the minority should just up and leave.
Quote:
Broad support for abortion rights: Gallup polls show Americans’ support for abortion in all or most cases at 85% as of May 2022, higher than when polling began in 1975 (76%), and the Pew Research Center finds 62% of adults believe abortion should be legal, compared to 60% in 1995—though there has been fluctuation, with support dropping to a low of 47% in 2009.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2023/04/11/how-americans-really-feel-about-abortion-the-sometimes-surprising-poll-results-as-court-ruling-threatens-mifepristone-access/amp/
Abortion laws directly effect tens of millions of women and men's lives around the US.
I did make a thread going over issues of wealth inequality and corruption here if you're interested.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28169633/page/1/fpart/all
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28276295 - 04/13/23 06:11 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: America forces people to pay excessive premiums and deductibles that other countries like Australia don't have.
Universal healthcare means our taxes are used to pay for our healthcare.
People aren't forced to pay premiums, but people are forced to pay taxes. Is your problem with the force? If it is, Universal healthcare increases the amount of forced payment
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28276441 - 04/13/23 07:40 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
sudly said: America forces people to pay excessive premiums and deductibles that other countries like Australia don't have.
Universal healthcare means our taxes are used to pay for our healthcare.
People aren't forced to pay premiums, but people are forced to pay taxes. Is your problem with the force? If it is, Universal healthcare increases the amount of forced payment
Universal healthcare in America can reduce overall healthcare spending and save people money. Under the current system, people often rely on private health insurance, which involves paying premiums, deductibles, and copays, creating financial barriers to accessing care.
In a universal healthcare system, everyone has access to care without the need for private insurance. Studies have shown that healthcare spending can be reduced under universal healthcare because healthcare providers would no longer need to navigate the complex private insurance system.
Preventative care and early intervention would be prioritised, leading to better health outcomes and lower costs in the long term. While taxes may increase under universal healthcare, this is often offset by the savings from not paying private insurance premiums and out of pocket costs.
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28276442 - 04/13/23 07:44 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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No doubt, but it's still force.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28276450 - 04/13/23 07:48 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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I always wondered, when people say Universal Healthcare...is that run strictly by the government...meaning governmental employees who happen to be Dr.s? Or is it like government contracts and farm it out.
Since profit motive is taken away from the equation (depending on what "type" of universal health care)...would if rely on coercive tax revenue to fund it? Since the profit motive is taken away, what are the arguments that the healthcare itself will be on par to what is in the US today?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28276454 - 04/13/23 07:49 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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You can still opt for private health insurance, and although a lot of people would pay more in tax, just as many would not be forced to pay premiums, copays or deductibles for health insurance and would overall be saving thousands.
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28276471 - 04/13/23 07:56 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: I always wondered, when people say Universal Healthcare...is that run strictly by the government...meaning governmental employees who happen to be Dr.s? Or is it like government contracts and farm it out.
Since profit motive is taken away from the equation (depending on what "type" of universal health care)...would if rely on coercive tax revenue to fund it? Since the profit motive is taken away, what are the arguments that the healthcare itself will be on par to what is in the US today?
There are many different forms of it, but in Medicare for example, put simply, it's a central payment system that organises with GPs and hospitals to use taxpayer funds for checkups and a variety of surgeries or even cosmetic procedures (usually longer wait times for cosmetic).
A universal healthcare option removes the profit motive of healthcare, because you can't put a price on someone's life or hold their medicine hostage with price gouging to make people pay excessively or run the risk of death..
The healthcare isn't changed, it's just a system of governance put in place to distribute tax payer funds without the middle man intervention of rapacious for profit health insurance companies.
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28276550 - 04/13/23 08:48 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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I always figured you just settle on a standard price for each procedure, and the doctor sends the bill to the government. I think that's how medicare works. And then the government and doctors figure out the price of healthcare every year.
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28276556 - 04/13/23 08:52 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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Something like that yeah, there are negotiations every year and some things are added or removed from the list, but things are generally reasonably priced, and while not everything is entirely covered by Medicare, you pretty much always get some percentage of a rebate.
One example is that you can get a mental health plan from a GP to have Medicare pay for 10 psychologist appointments each year, but for a psychiatrist you might only get a rebate of about 50% with a recommendation from a GP, at least in Australia.
I pay so much in taxes each year and am grateful some of it was spent to save my life and not put me in medical debt.
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rxb
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28276557 - 04/13/23 08:53 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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there are many ways to run socialized medicine well,
many countries have worked it out.
what people fail to realize is that in this polarized country, about half the adult population will actively try to sabotage anyform of healthcare system that doesnt involve them paying 2 or 3 middlemen to push papers for no reason.
so more than likely we will NEVER see good healthcare at a fair price in the us in any of our lifetimes. and the chance of socialized medicine working better than the current system (or worse than it either) is pretty fucking low.
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: rxb]
#28276604 - 04/13/23 09:38 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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If implemented, and with a transition period, theoretically it would work better than the current system. Even a public option would, but it's hard to imagine there wouldn't be a lot of attempts to overturn it.
I think with things like universal healthcare, when implemented they become very popular.
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Enlil
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28276607 - 04/13/23 09:43 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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Popularity isn't really a measure of quality, though. Justin Bieber was popular. Boy bands can become popular. Reality TV is crazy popular. Sometimes, popularity just tells us that something speaks to the lowest common denominator.
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28276639 - 04/13/23 10:22 PM (9 months, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Popularity isn't really a measure of quality, though. Justin Bieber was popular. Boy bands can become popular. Reality TV is crazy popular. Sometimes, popularity just tells us that something speaks to the lowest common denominator.
Looking at the quality of care, many countries have world class medical facilities and highly trained healthcare professionals, and each country's healthcare system has its own strengths and weaknesses.
The US however, does not consistently rank at the top in international comparisons of healthcare quality, as evidenced by the Commonwealth Fund's rankings.
The US also spends more per capita on healthcare than any other country in the world, yet it ranks last out of 11 high income countries in the CF rankings. The US performed poorly in measures of access to care and affordability, indicating that there are significant challenges facing the US healthcare system that need to be addressed.
Quote:
https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2021/aug/mirror-mirror-2021-reflecting-poorly
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rxb
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28276869 - 04/14/23 05:44 AM (9 months, 9 days ago) |
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if i were to say, that the US cant possibly make a universal healthcare as a service like the military or public schools, everyone would instantly know thats not true. we COULD make a really good one.
but there are even a ton of DOCTORS who would subvert and sabotage the system from within, much less the institutions with MONEY. there would be a ton of people who would lose their jobs it would be a VERY weird tranisional period and it would break the system over and over until everyone hated it and decided it could never work, for it to succeed you need most people to WANT it first, and then it could very well work.
we spend more on healthcare than most first world countries, and we dont offer superior medicine to most of those who spend less per person than we do, but as fucked up as that is, having health care that costs too much and does too little is better than further breaking the system by trying to force ideas that half the country doesnt want and will actively work to prove it doesnt work if implemented.
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: rxb] 1
#28276951 - 04/14/23 07:29 AM (9 months, 9 days ago) |
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They tried to do that with Obamacare, and it is still one of the most popular programs ever (as long as you call it the ACA and not Obamacare).
There are still states trying to torpedo the program.
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rxb
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28277096 - 04/14/23 09:22 AM (9 months, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: They tried to do that with Obamacare, and it is still one of the most popular programs ever (as long as you call it the ACA and not Obamacare).
There are still states trying to torpedo the program.
there are still states trying to torpedo whats left of it after they have gutted it and made it far less effective and essentially undone most of the benefits and cost savings such that all thats really left is a strong suggestion that you get healthcare and pay for it....
there are still a few benefits left for very poor people and thats nice, but... the people sabataging it were pretty successful
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: rxb] 1
#28279336 - 04/15/23 05:14 PM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
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Not sure what backing you have to say doctors would subvert and sabotage the system, or why anyone outside of the useless money grubbing middle men would be out of work.
Most people do want it but representative democracy isn't much of a thing in the oligarchy that is America.
Quote:
JANUARY 23, 2023
Majority in U.S. Still Say Gov't Should Ensure Healthcare
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
57% say government should ensure health coverage for all in U.S.
53% favor health system based on private insurance; 43%, a government-run one
72% of Democrats, 13% of Republicans support government-run system
https://news.gallup.com/poll/468401/majority-say-gov-ensure-healthcare.aspx
Fixing the system to match the rest of the developed world is the intention of universal healthcare in the US.
Cus they dragging behind the times.
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos] 1
#28279345 - 04/15/23 05:17 PM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
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Obama (Romney) care was a half assed piss weak improvement relative to the full monty of universal healthcare. And if that's as popular as it is.. The potential is clear.
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rxb
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28279354 - 04/15/23 05:25 PM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Obama (Romney) care was a half assed piss weak improvement relative to the full monty of universal healthcare. And if that's as popular as it is.. The potential is clear.
obamacare/romneycare at its core is essentially corporate welfare... hell anthem wrote most of it and it favors them.
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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sudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: rxb] 1
#28279400 - 04/15/23 06:00 PM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
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Although the ACA included provisions to expand access to healthcare for millions of people, especially those under or uninsured, it also included provisions that could be interpreted as corporate welfare particularly in terms of negotiations with pharmaceutical and health insurance industries that did not allow the government to negotiate drug prices or import lower cost drugs. The subsidies for low income consumers did infuse profits into the health insurance industry but also helped the consumers.
I think the problem was that Romney care didn't expand health insurance to the whole country and specifically still allowed price gouging.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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