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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: ballsalsa]
#28260909 - 04/03/23 04:49 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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But you need to stick to the original claim, which was that the rich have bought and paid for the legislature. If that were true, the rich would not have such a high tax burden.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil] 2
#28260951 - 04/03/23 05:22 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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The rich don’t have a high tax burden relative to comparable nations or even our own nation’s history. They’ve shifted the tax burden onto the working class about as much as they can without blowing the whole thing up.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,789
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28260973 - 04/03/23 05:43 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: But you need to stick to the original claim, which was that the rich have bought and paid for the legislature. If that were true, the rich would not have such a high tax burden.
You troll you Enlil.
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: ballsalsa]
#28261024 - 04/03/23 06:12 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: Don't let him get away with his tricks. Keep him on topic, force him to make a claim and then hammer the claim. If you dont get him it will at least open up other opportunities.

This reminds me of the GMO labeling thread back in the day. That was when I started complaining to my wife about "the fuckin' lawyer", lmao. Pretty sure he made a 1st amendment argument against mandating GMO labeling and ended up in a discussion about the legal threshold for infringing specifically enumerated rights, iirc.
It's moments like these that make wandering through the mod complaints forum once in a while oh so enjoyable.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28261186 - 04/03/23 08:25 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: But you need to stick to the original claim, which was that the rich have bought and paid for the legislature. If that were true, the rich would not have such a high tax burden.
Is it high? I might think 40% was cheap if I were raking in 70% of the dough. Do we have any data on that?
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: ballsalsa]
#28261191 - 04/03/23 08:29 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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We know they pay 7 times the tax rate, so clearly they aren't getting 70% of the dough.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28261219 - 04/03/23 08:42 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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I was using dough as a general euphemism for wealth, not income as defined by the tax code, per se
Also, I just threw out a random number higher than 40%, I'm not married to 70
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Posts: 10,789
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil] 1
#28261234 - 04/03/23 08:50 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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The only way there could be an average of 3.4% income tax for the bottom 50% is if you include people who earn so little they don't pay tax.
Quote:
The United States operates under a progressive tax code, which means — all things being equal — the more you earn, the more income taxes you owe. (Exceptions apply; we’ll visit that later.) Earned income — income you receive from your job(s) — is measured against seven tax brackets ranging from 10% to 37%.
There are capital gains taxes with a miriad of loopholes, and income taxes extremely wealthy people can avoid entirely.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28261236 - 04/03/23 08:51 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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A lot of people don't pay income taxes.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28261248 - 04/03/23 09:00 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Mostly broke people.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28261249 - 04/03/23 09:01 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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You could move to the Bahamas, earn less than 18k a year or live off certain styles of stock trades or loans and pay capital gains taxes instead for sure.
Doesn't mean it isn't worth regulating tax loopholes the ultra wealthy have access to.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28261264 - 04/03/23 09:19 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Kinda irrelevant to the claim that congress is bought and paid for.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil] 1
#28261312 - 04/03/23 10:34 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Individuals and corporations who take advantage of tax loopholes, vs the senators and legislators who receive millions in lobbyist sponsorships to enable those loopholes through the legislation they push for.
Now you don't need to be a lawyer to be able to tell the difference here.
An added caveat is that a lot of those corporations or ultra wealthy individuals are the lobbyists, sponsors and purchasers of said Senate or house members.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28261319 - 04/03/23 10:42 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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And yet, with all of these "loopholes," the top 1% still pays more than the bottom 90% and 7 times the rate of the bottom 50%.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil] 1
#28261326 - 04/03/23 10:48 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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I mean you're lying about the bottom rate straight up. There is no 3.4% tax rate, those who don't earn enough to pay taxes aren't counted. Elon Musk has an effective tax rate of 3% if you want to bring that to light.
The utmost ultra wealtht don't pay equivalent percentages and you know that. What are you, applying for a job at fox?
Even among the top 1% of earners, there is the top 0.1% and I think they're the main culprits here. The actual elite, not the well off family.
Lobbyists sponsor legislators, legislators enable the tax loopholes, lobbyists and other individuals or groups who can, take advantage of said loopholes.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,470
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28261336 - 04/03/23 10:59 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: I mean you're lying about the bottom rate straight up. There is no 3.4% tax rate.
I didn't say there was. That percentage is from a source I linked. There doesn't have to be a 3.4% tax rate for someone to pay 3.4% One can be in the 10% tax bracket and pay 3.4%. Let's examine this.
If a person makes $19,750, he's in the 10% tax bracket. He gets the standard deduction of $12,950 which reduces his taxable income to $6,800. That is then taxed at 10% or $680. He has paid $680 taxes on $19,750 of income or a rate of 3.4%
Of course, that's not even necessary for the 3.4% figure to be accurate, because that is the average of the bottom 50%, so there are going to be some zeros, some above 10%, etc. It all averages out to 3.4%
Quote:
sudly said:
Lobbyists sponsor legislators
What are you talking about? Lobbyists can't sponsor anyone. Lobbyists can't give money to legislators.
Also, Elon Musk paid an average of 27% for 2013-2018. That 3% figure is just made up. In 2021, Elon Musk paid $11 Billion in taxes.
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Kryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28261362 - 04/03/23 11:33 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: And yet, with all of these "loopholes," the top 1% still pays more than the bottom 90% and 7 times the rate of the bottom 50%.
And they are doing their goddamn best to pay less. It is slow work, but the trend is there.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28261370 - 04/03/23 11:37 PM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Everyone is doing their best to pay less.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28261394 - 04/04/23 12:12 AM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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He only had $1250 of taxable income. With no tax on income under $18,500. (Aus standard)
And he still paid whatever his tax bracket was on that taxable income.
That isn't 3.4%, it would be 10% of his taxable income at $125.
You'd only have a point if you included non taxable income, which isn't relevant to the loopholes ultra wealthy people take advantage of.
You know what super PACS are and how lobbyists can contribute to political campaigns with unlimited 'independent' expenditure, don't play dumb.
Again, Musk and others alike had an effective tax rate of 3% or less.
You conveniently left out specific yearly percentages for what musk paid, how he in some years avoided nigh all income tax and lives off loan arrangements because of his wealth.
Or the fact that Tesla didn't pay any federal taxes.
Quote:
Musk's rare big tax bill
Musk has a history of using the US tax code to pay little or no personal federal income taxes. A report from ProPublica shows that for 2018 Musk and many other Americans near the top of the world's richest people paid no income tax.
In Musk's case, he receives no salary from Tesla, only very valuable stock options, as a form of compensation. And under US tax code he doesn't have to pay taxes on those options until he exercises them to buy shares of stock at a fraction of their current value.
Quote:
Elon Musk has repeatedly bragged (or, perhaps, complained) that he'll pay more in federal taxes for 2021 than anyone has ever paid — about $11 billion. But Tesla apparently won't pay a cent.
Tesla may not plan to pay federal taxes any time in the foreseeable future -- even though the company just reported by far its most profitable year ever. In 2021, Tesla recorded net income of $5.5 billion, and adjusted income of $7.6 billion.
But buried in a footnote of its recent annual financial filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission, Tesla reports that its US operations lost $130 million last year on a pre-tax basis. It claims that all of its pre-tax profits — more than $6 billion worth — came from overseas operations, even though 45% of its revenue came from US sales.
Although Tesla indicates its foreign tax bill came to $839 million, its state tax bill was only $9 million. And its federal tax bill was zero.
"That defies common sense, but it does not defy the US tax code," said Martin Sullivan, chief economist for Tax Analysts, a nonprofit tax publisher, and an expert on US corporate tax practices.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/02/10/investing/elon-musk-tesla-zero-tax-bill/index.html
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly] 1
#28261523 - 04/04/23 05:05 AM (9 months, 19 days ago) |
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Its all legal, there is not one swinging dick that wouldn't report a loss of income/revenue to reduce a tax burden...no Mom and Pop small business or corporate screw.
The only way to change this is to change the tax code; good luck on that as one "simple" change could have disastrous effects on the economy and all but zero politicians are gonna fuck with it...especially when the total dollar amount of collected taxes is at its highest (like 4 trillion)
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Edited by SirTripAlot (04/04/23 05:23 AM)
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