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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
    #28260573 - 04/03/23 01:35 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

No...you will still be free to maybe murder.  You will not be free to murder.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
    #28260576 - 04/03/23 01:36 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

So you're willing to just run roughshod over my god given rights as you see fit?

Tyrant.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #28260601 - 04/03/23 01:45 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

God is a fictional character. 

Society works by people giving up some autonomy in exchange for the greater good.  I know this stuff is all new to you, so I have to break it down for you. 

The first question is whether there is a legitimate societal interest in an issue.  Murder has universally been considered bad for social stability, and it has been universally banned since long before the U.S. existed. 

After we decide whether the interest is legitimate, we have to decide how much we're willing to give up in order to address that interest.  Banning murder gives up nothing but the option of murdering.  It's an example of extremely narrow tailoring of regulation.

Now, murdering people is already illegal, but people still get murdered.  People get shot in schools, occasionally.  The next question is how much more are we willing to give up to reduce this?  Are we willing to take from millions of americans a fundamental right that has existed since the founding of this nation?  I'm not...maybe you are...  Wherever you and I land, there is a legitimate debate to be had.

This is why the NRA has power.  They represent the interests of millions of voting age people.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #28260682 - 04/03/23 02:29 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

I'd say they more represent the interests of millions of gun dollars and a few reelection campaigns, but that's about the same as "millions of people".

I think we both know that there will not be any sort of regulation placed on guns, and the only direction US gun law will go in the next two decades is in the direction of more access for more people. Especially with the SCOTUS ruling on historical tradition. I wonder if there's a historical tradition for disarming prisoners? Seems without a specific law on the books, someone that is currently in jail could successfully argue that they should be allowed to keep their guns in jail.

But yes, the fundamental question is how much are we willing to give up to prevent gun violence. It seems like the answer is "nothing".

I'd actually argue that gun violence is a good thing, politically, from a certain perspective. The reality of random violence, or even the threat of random violence, which is statistically perpetrated by a very specific demographic which has very specific political leanings, has an effect on who chooses to speak out.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
    #28260693 - 04/03/23 02:39 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

The NRA didn't spend a lot of money on campaigns, at least in the grand scheme of things.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
    #28260696 - 04/03/23 02:42 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

No, they spent money shaping the culture, not the campaign. As a result, guns are often the first response to most situations.

Interestingly enough, spending money in different ways often gets you different results. Sometimes you can spend money one way, and then spend money more efficiently another way.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
    #28260703 - 04/03/23 02:45 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

This is why democracy needs to be abolished.  People are too stupid and easily manipulated.


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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
    #28260708 - 04/03/23 02:50 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

...democracy must be abolished because it allows a moneyed minority to dictate the rules under which the majority must live?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
    #28260712 - 04/03/23 02:52 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

No.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: tyrannicalrex] * 1
    #28260746 - 04/03/23 03:14 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

tyrannicalrex said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
  After all, the top 1% pay more in taxes than the bottom 90% combined.



NO, they do NOT! Loopholes and scheming and working the system with people like you (lawyers) gets them out of paying their fair share and you know it.




I mean this is flagrant spin, everyone knows corporations have access to deductions where an entire corporation will pay less tax as a percentage than a nurse.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
    #28260748 - 04/03/23 03:15 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

"everyone knows" is a great source.  I linked a better source, though.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
    #28260752 - 04/03/23 03:18 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

You missed the point Enlil, do you know what a percentage is? Because you could show that you understood my comment if you wanted to.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
    #28260757 - 04/03/23 03:22 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

Did you read my linked source?  Here's another quote:

Quote:

The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 25.4 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than seven times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (3.4 percent).




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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #28260764 - 04/03/23 03:27 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
The notion that the rich have all the power is largely overstated.  Certainly, the rich do have some influence beyond the common man, but it isn't nearly as dramatic as people seem to think it is.  After all, the top 1% pay more in taxes than the bottom 90% combined.  If they had all the power, that wouldn't be the case.

As far as the NRA having influence, that's less about money and more about simply being on the right side of the argument.  When reason and statistics are on your side, it's pretty easy to persuade people over the long run.  Emotional arguments and parents crying on TV can sway people temporarily, but once you get to the point of taking freedom from millions in order to protect hundreds, it gets harder to sell.




The power of the wealthy is to create bought and paid for senators and legislators.

If you know how Apple handles their taxes, you know.

The NRA has given hundreds of millions of dollars to senators over time, and itd be naive to think it was out of the goodness of their hearts.

https://elections.bradyunited.org/take-action/nra-donations-116th-congress-senators

Without lobbyist influences we'd have more interesting public discussions around reasonable steps for gun safety like background checks. Maybe the point of safety is gone already, but that's a topic worth debating, without lobbyist sponsorship and advertising.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
    #28260771 - 04/03/23 03:33 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

Of course it isn't out of the goodness of their hearts.  The NRA is a membership-driven organization representing the interests of millions of americans.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
    #28260783 - 04/03/23 03:37 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Did you read my linked source?  Here's another quote:

Quote:

The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 25.4 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than seven times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (3.4 percent).







People like Musk can skirt income taxes through loans.

It is what it is right now and I do advocate for using legal tools at hand, but that doesn't mean I won't argue the importance of better regulations and a ban on lobbying to sponsor politicians.

Quote:

How do rich people avoid taxes? Wealthy Americans skirt $160 billion a year in tax payment.

As long as it’s done legitimately and there’s no fraud, I’m okay with it,” said Ed Smith, senior tax and estate planner at Janney Montgomery Scott.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/taxes/2023/02/21/how-do-rich-people-avoid-taxes/11308215002/





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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
    #28260787 - 04/03/23 03:39 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Of course it isn't out of the goodness of their hearts.  The NRA is a membership-driven organization representing the interests of millions of americans.




The senators they buy represent the profit interests of NRA associated gun manufacturers, not the general public lol.

You ever seen a poll on background checks? Cus it doesn't seem like it from what you're saying. 


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
    #28260789 - 04/03/23 03:39 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

Eh, there's some debate as to the membership of the NRA. They claim 5 million members, but their free members magazine only send out 3 and change million copies. Seems like a pretty huge oversight that a third of their membership does not get the membership publication.

Still not sure how the wishes of 5 million NRA members overruling the wishes of the other 325 million americans is an example of why democracy is bad (and not an example of the antidemocratic seizure of government rulemaking by monied interests) but you don't seem to be interested in explaining anything past saying that democracy is bad.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
    #28260884 - 04/03/23 04:30 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

Don't let him get away with his tricks.  Keep him on topic, force him to make a claim and then hammer the claim. If you dont get him it will at least open up other opportunities.
:heytherebadboy:

This reminds me of the GMO labeling thread back in the day.  That was when I started complaining to my wife about "the fuckin' lawyer", lmao.  Pretty sure he made a 1st amendment argument against mandating GMO labeling and ended up in a discussion about the legal threshold for infringing specifically enumerated rights, iirc.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #28260903 - 04/03/23 04:44 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

In 2018, the top 1 percent of taxpayers accounted for more income taxes paid than the bottom 90 percent combined. The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid roughly $615 billion, or 40.1 percent of all income taxes, while the bottom 90 percent paid about $440 billion, or 28.6 percent of all income taxes.



https://taxfoundation.org/federal-income-tax-data-2021/




Of course, income taxes aren't the only kind and very wealthy individuals may be able to obscure, avoid or delay their tax burden by simply being compensated largely through non-cash assets.  For those who are compensated largely with currency, we know that they enjoy a huge discount on payroll taxes and nobody can seem to explain why that makes any sense.  I'm sure there are loads of examples of regressive taxes in the U.S.  I believe that TheEcstatic mentioned sales tax.


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