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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
    #28260201 - 04/03/23 08:44 AM (9 months, 20 days ago)

To your last point, I said millions.  There are millions of gun owners.

To your other points, I agree that DUI laws should not exist.  Having said that, DUI laws don't protect "hundreds."  Also, as I've pointed out many, many times, it is about balancing freedom with benefit of taking that freedom away.  In the case of DUI laws, it is an unjust deprivation of freedom, IMO.  It's still not as unjust as a gun ban would be, because at least the infringement is narrowly tailored to a specific issue,  and the right to drive and/or drink isn't a fundamental right.

As for murder, 100% of murders result in the death of a human being.  Outlawing murder is the most narrowly-tailored way to address the problem

For guns, less than .0001% of guns are ever fired at a human being, if you exclude war which wouldn't play into a gun-control scenario anyway. 

Do you sincerely not see the difference?  Or are you just making an argument ad absurdium for rhetorical purposes?


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
    #28260305 - 04/03/23 10:32 AM (9 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
  After all, the top 1% pay more in taxes than the bottom 90% combined.



NO, they do NOT! Loopholes and scheming and working the system with people like you (lawyers) gets them out of paying their fair share and you know it.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #28260308 - 04/03/23 10:37 AM (9 months, 20 days ago)

What I said is 100% true


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
    #28260311 - 04/03/23 10:39 AM (9 months, 20 days ago)

Nope.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #28260317 - 04/03/23 10:44 AM (9 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

In 2018, the top 1 percent of taxpayers accounted for more income taxes paid than the bottom 90 percent combined. The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid roughly $615 billion, or 40.1 percent of all income taxes, while the bottom 90 percent paid about $440 billion, or 28.6 percent of all income taxes.



https://taxfoundation.org/federal-income-tax-data-2021/


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
    #28260323 - 04/03/23 10:47 AM (9 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
To your last point, I said millions.  There are millions of gun owners.

To your other points, I agree that DUI laws should not exist.  Having said that, DUI laws don't protect "hundreds."  Also, as I've pointed out many, many times, it is about balancing freedom with benefit of taking that freedom away.  In the case of DUI laws, it is an unjust deprivation of freedom, IMO.  It's still not as unjust as a gun ban would be, because at least the infringement is narrowly tailored to a specific issue,  and the right to drive and/or drink isn't a fundamental right.

As for murder, 100% of murders result in the death of a human being.  Outlawing murder is the most narrowly-tailored way to address the problem

For guns, less than .0001% of guns are ever fired at a human being, if you exclude war which wouldn't play into a gun-control scenario anyway. 

Do you sincerely not see the difference?  Or are you just making an argument ad absurdium for rhetorical purposes?




In order: Millions of gun owners can still be a minority.

Gun laws also do not protect hundreds. Car related deaths and gun related deaths are very comparable, although they are trending in opposite directions, which is why gun deaths outpaced car deaths as of 2020.

I do not understand your point about murder. Before you were framing this as an issue of rights, why are we concerned with what percentage of murders result in deaths? The outcome of a murder is irrelevant when it comes to the right to murder.

Unless of course, the outcome is relevant, in which case, your choice to discount gun related deaths as negligible makes no sense.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
    #28260325 - 04/03/23 10:48 AM (9 months, 20 days ago)

Where is there a right to murder?


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
    #28260326 - 04/03/23 10:49 AM (9 months, 20 days ago)

Tenth amendment.

Where is there a right to not be murdered?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
    #28260331 - 04/03/23 10:54 AM (9 months, 20 days ago)

The tenth amendment doesn't have a right to murder.  Reducing murder is legitimate social goal.  Do you disagree?


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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
    #28260338 - 04/03/23 10:59 AM (9 months, 20 days ago)

The tenth amendment says that rights not mentioned in the constitution belong to the people. Murder is not mentioned in the constitution.

I would also like to point out that saying "well, I have a right to own guns" is a bit like someone saying "well, I have a right to free speech" when confronted after saying something rock fucking dumb.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
    #28260340 - 04/03/23 11:02 AM (9 months, 20 days ago)

Yes, people have the right to say stupid shit and to own guns.

There is no right to murder people.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
    #28260342 - 04/03/23 11:04 AM (9 months, 20 days ago)

There is no right not to murder people.


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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
    #28260363 - 04/03/23 11:31 AM (9 months, 20 days ago)

There is a right not to be murdered, though.  That is a statutory right in every state of this nation.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #28260379 - 04/03/23 11:43 AM (9 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

In 2018, the top 1 percent of taxpayers accounted for more income taxes paid than the bottom 90 percent combined. The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid roughly $615 billion, or 40.1 percent of all income taxes, while the bottom 90 percent paid about $440 billion, or 28.6 percent of all income taxes.



https://taxfoundation.org/federal-income-tax-data-2021/




Now do sales tax


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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
    #28260390 - 04/03/23 11:54 AM (9 months, 20 days ago)

You know damn good and well the richest take loophole liberties and the system is set up so that they actually don't pay, they get some of it/all of it back by claiming donations and all kinds of other things set into the system to give them the money back or keep them from paying their fair share. You KNOW this. Almost everyone knows this, but yet here we are.:rolleyes: I could itemize my taxes as a laymen and do a self audit and keep every single receipt and do my taxes that way, but why bother? I get some back and I don't make millions a year.

When I donate items to good will they offer a receipt for claiming a donation to charity so I can get it back at the end of the year on taxes. I see people actually bitching about it in a line to donate sometimes and force them to give a receipt for their donations. Much like huge corps, they don't pay what they should because it's all a good ol' boy backscratching system set up over decades and decades of greedy capitalist corporate fucks! I don't know who the fuck you think you're foolin'. It certainly isn't me. Wasn't there just recent info on trump not paying ANY/zero taxes one year he was prez and only 750 for a couple years each year? Really? billionaire and he only paid 750 or nothing? Puh-leeeze!:rolleyes:
:nursemaryjane:


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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
    #28260412 - 04/03/23 12:05 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
There is a right not to be murdered, though.  That is a statutory right in every state of this nation.




Just because there is a statute, that does not make it a right. Rights are inalienable. Statutes are not.

Now that I think about it, I actually cannot find a single statutory right to not be murdered. Plenty about not murdering, but nothing about not being murdered.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
    #28260501 - 04/03/23 01:02 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

Rights can be created by statute just like they can be created by a Constitution.  At this point, you're just making nonsense arguments.

The bottom line is that a gun ban will ban 10's of thousands of guns that will never harm a human for each gun that might.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
    #28260563 - 04/03/23 01:31 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

Same with a murder ban.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
    #28260566 - 04/03/23 01:33 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

No.  Completely different.  A murder ban will only ban murder and will not ban any conduct that isn't murder.  A gun ban will ban the ownership of gun for millions of people who would never have shot anyone.


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Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
    #28260571 - 04/03/23 01:34 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

So it will harm my right to maybe murder someone in the future, to save a few hundred lives?

Those that are willing to give up their freedoms to purchase a little bit of safety deserve neither.


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