|
sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,789
|
Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28276441 - 04/13/23 07:40 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
sudly said: America forces people to pay excessive premiums and deductibles that other countries like Australia don't have.
Universal healthcare means our taxes are used to pay for our healthcare.
People aren't forced to pay premiums, but people are forced to pay taxes. Is your problem with the force? If it is, Universal healthcare increases the amount of forced payment
Universal healthcare in America can reduce overall healthcare spending and save people money. Under the current system, people often rely on private health insurance, which involves paying premiums, deductibles, and copays, creating financial barriers to accessing care.
In a universal healthcare system, everyone has access to care without the need for private insurance. Studies have shown that healthcare spending can be reduced under universal healthcare because healthcare providers would no longer need to navigate the complex private insurance system.
Preventative care and early intervention would be prioritised, leading to better health outcomes and lower costs in the long term. While taxes may increase under universal healthcare, this is often offset by the savings from not paying private insurance premiums and out of pocket costs.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,470
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28276442 - 04/13/23 07:44 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
|
|
No doubt, but it's still force.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 2 hours, 44 minutes
|
Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28276450 - 04/13/23 07:48 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
|
|
I always wondered, when people say Universal Healthcare...is that run strictly by the government...meaning governmental employees who happen to be Dr.s? Or is it like government contracts and farm it out.
Since profit motive is taken away from the equation (depending on what "type" of universal health care)...would if rely on coercive tax revenue to fund it? Since the profit motive is taken away, what are the arguments that the healthcare itself will be on par to what is in the US today?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,789
|
Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28276454 - 04/13/23 07:49 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
|
|
You can still opt for private health insurance, and although a lot of people would pay more in tax, just as many would not be forced to pay premiums, copays or deductibles for health insurance and would overall be saving thousands.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,789
|
Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28276471 - 04/13/23 07:56 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: I always wondered, when people say Universal Healthcare...is that run strictly by the government...meaning governmental employees who happen to be Dr.s? Or is it like government contracts and farm it out.
Since profit motive is taken away from the equation (depending on what "type" of universal health care)...would if rely on coercive tax revenue to fund it? Since the profit motive is taken away, what are the arguments that the healthcare itself will be on par to what is in the US today?
There are many different forms of it, but in Medicare for example, put simply, it's a central payment system that organises with GPs and hospitals to use taxpayer funds for checkups and a variety of surgeries or even cosmetic procedures (usually longer wait times for cosmetic).
A universal healthcare option removes the profit motive of healthcare, because you can't put a price on someone's life or hold their medicine hostage with price gouging to make people pay excessively or run the risk of death..
The healthcare isn't changed, it's just a system of governance put in place to distribute tax payer funds without the middle man intervention of rapacious for profit health insurance companies.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,258
Last seen: 9 hours, 19 minutes
|
Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28276550 - 04/13/23 08:48 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
|
|
I always figured you just settle on a standard price for each procedure, and the doctor sends the bill to the government. I think that's how medicare works. And then the government and doctors figure out the price of healthcare every year.
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,789
|
Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28276556 - 04/13/23 08:52 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
|
|
Something like that yeah, there are negotiations every year and some things are added or removed from the list, but things are generally reasonably priced, and while not everything is entirely covered by Medicare, you pretty much always get some percentage of a rebate.
One example is that you can get a mental health plan from a GP to have Medicare pay for 10 psychologist appointments each year, but for a psychiatrist you might only get a rebate of about 50% with a recommendation from a GP, at least in Australia.
I pay so much in taxes each year and am grateful some of it was spent to save my life and not put me in medical debt.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
rxb
n00b-sabot



Registered: 08/24/13
Posts: 9,482
Loc: FREE PSYCHONAUTICA
Last seen: 3 hours, 31 minutes
|
Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28276557 - 04/13/23 08:53 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
|
|
there are many ways to run socialized medicine well,
many countries have worked it out.
what people fail to realize is that in this polarized country, about half the adult population will actively try to sabotage anyform of healthcare system that doesnt involve them paying 2 or 3 middlemen to push papers for no reason.
so more than likely we will NEVER see good healthcare at a fair price in the us in any of our lifetimes. and the chance of socialized medicine working better than the current system (or worse than it either) is pretty fucking low.
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,789
|
Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: rxb]
#28276604 - 04/13/23 09:38 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
|
|
If implemented, and with a transition period, theoretically it would work better than the current system. Even a public option would, but it's hard to imagine there wouldn't be a lot of attempts to overturn it.
I think with things like universal healthcare, when implemented they become very popular.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,470
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28276607 - 04/13/23 09:43 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
|
|
Popularity isn't really a measure of quality, though. Justin Bieber was popular. Boy bands can become popular. Reality TV is crazy popular. Sometimes, popularity just tells us that something speaks to the lowest common denominator.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,789
|
Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Enlil]
#28276639 - 04/13/23 10:22 PM (9 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said: Popularity isn't really a measure of quality, though. Justin Bieber was popular. Boy bands can become popular. Reality TV is crazy popular. Sometimes, popularity just tells us that something speaks to the lowest common denominator.
Looking at the quality of care, many countries have world class medical facilities and highly trained healthcare professionals, and each country's healthcare system has its own strengths and weaknesses.
The US however, does not consistently rank at the top in international comparisons of healthcare quality, as evidenced by the Commonwealth Fund's rankings.
The US also spends more per capita on healthcare than any other country in the world, yet it ranks last out of 11 high income countries in the CF rankings. The US performed poorly in measures of access to care and affordability, indicating that there are significant challenges facing the US healthcare system that need to be addressed.
Quote:
https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2021/aug/mirror-mirror-2021-reflecting-poorly
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
rxb
n00b-sabot



Registered: 08/24/13
Posts: 9,482
Loc: FREE PSYCHONAUTICA
Last seen: 3 hours, 31 minutes
|
Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28276869 - 04/14/23 05:44 AM (9 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
if i were to say, that the US cant possibly make a universal healthcare as a service like the military or public schools, everyone would instantly know thats not true. we COULD make a really good one.
but there are even a ton of DOCTORS who would subvert and sabotage the system from within, much less the institutions with MONEY. there would be a ton of people who would lose their jobs it would be a VERY weird tranisional period and it would break the system over and over until everyone hated it and decided it could never work, for it to succeed you need most people to WANT it first, and then it could very well work.
we spend more on healthcare than most first world countries, and we dont offer superior medicine to most of those who spend less per person than we do, but as fucked up as that is, having health care that costs too much and does too little is better than further breaking the system by trying to force ideas that half the country doesnt want and will actively work to prove it doesnt work if implemented.
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,258
Last seen: 9 hours, 19 minutes
|
Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: rxb] 1
#28276951 - 04/14/23 07:29 AM (9 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
They tried to do that with Obamacare, and it is still one of the most popular programs ever (as long as you call it the ACA and not Obamacare).
There are still states trying to torpedo the program.
|
rxb
n00b-sabot



Registered: 08/24/13
Posts: 9,482
Loc: FREE PSYCHONAUTICA
Last seen: 3 hours, 31 minutes
|
Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos]
#28277096 - 04/14/23 09:22 AM (9 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kryptos said: They tried to do that with Obamacare, and it is still one of the most popular programs ever (as long as you call it the ACA and not Obamacare).
There are still states trying to torpedo the program.
there are still states trying to torpedo whats left of it after they have gutted it and made it far less effective and essentially undone most of the benefits and cost savings such that all thats really left is a strong suggestion that you get healthcare and pay for it....
there are still a few benefits left for very poor people and thats nice, but... the people sabataging it were pretty successful
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,789
|
Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: rxb] 1
#28279336 - 04/15/23 05:14 PM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
|
|
Not sure what backing you have to say doctors would subvert and sabotage the system, or why anyone outside of the useless money grubbing middle men would be out of work.
Most people do want it but representative democracy isn't much of a thing in the oligarchy that is America.
Quote:
JANUARY 23, 2023
Majority in U.S. Still Say Gov't Should Ensure Healthcare
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
57% say government should ensure health coverage for all in U.S.
53% favor health system based on private insurance; 43%, a government-run one
72% of Democrats, 13% of Republicans support government-run system
https://news.gallup.com/poll/468401/majority-say-gov-ensure-healthcare.aspx
Fixing the system to match the rest of the developed world is the intention of universal healthcare in the US.
Cus they dragging behind the times.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,789
|
Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: Kryptos] 1
#28279345 - 04/15/23 05:17 PM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
|
|
Obama (Romney) care was a half assed piss weak improvement relative to the full monty of universal healthcare. And if that's as popular as it is.. The potential is clear.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
rxb
n00b-sabot



Registered: 08/24/13
Posts: 9,482
Loc: FREE PSYCHONAUTICA
Last seen: 3 hours, 31 minutes
|
Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: sudly]
#28279354 - 04/15/23 05:25 PM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
sudly said: Obama (Romney) care was a half assed piss weak improvement relative to the full monty of universal healthcare. And if that's as popular as it is.. The potential is clear.
obamacare/romneycare at its core is essentially corporate welfare... hell anthem wrote most of it and it favors them.
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,789
|
Re: Two Wings of the Same Bird [Re: rxb] 1
#28279400 - 04/15/23 06:00 PM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
|
|
Although the ACA included provisions to expand access to healthcare for millions of people, especially those under or uninsured, it also included provisions that could be interpreted as corporate welfare particularly in terms of negotiations with pharmaceutical and health insurance industries that did not allow the government to negotiate drug prices or import lower cost drugs. The subsidies for low income consumers did infuse profits into the health insurance industry but also helped the consumers.
I think the problem was that Romney care didn't expand health insurance to the whole country and specifically still allowed price gouging.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
|