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OfflineKryptos
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Firing Squad Death Penalty
    #28251780 - 03/28/23 07:22 PM (9 months, 26 days ago)

What do you guys think? Should we add firing squad to the execution roster?
Yea or Nay?
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from (03/28/23 05:22 PM) to (No end specified)
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll



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Invisiblesplit_by_nine
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #28251815 - 03/28/23 07:32 PM (9 months, 26 days ago)

yes and shallow pool drowning. if we're guna kill, lets make it fun:thumbup:


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Invisiblestubb
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: split_by_nine]
    #28251817 - 03/28/23 07:33 PM (9 months, 26 days ago)

Did Utah ever get rid of it?


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: stubb]
    #28251873 - 03/28/23 07:57 PM (9 months, 26 days ago)

What? Why? Is this a meme thread that I don't understand??

The death penalty never sat well with me. Seems barbaric.


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OfflineIce9
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Lynnch] * 1
    #28251879 - 03/28/23 08:00 PM (9 months, 26 days ago)

Apparently we are the only 2 voters so far that do not like the idea of giving a tremendously flawed system explicit permission to kill.


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Invisiblesoong type
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Ice9] * 1
    #28251908 - 03/28/23 08:16 PM (9 months, 26 days ago)

Life sentence is another form of death penalty. Death by old age.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Lynnch] * 1
    #28252331 - 03/29/23 12:51 AM (9 months, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Lynnch said:
What? Why? Is this a meme thread that I don't understand??

The death penalty never sat well with me. Seems barbaric.




Idaho is about to legalize firing squad executions.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos]
    #28252496 - 03/29/23 06:03 AM (9 months, 25 days ago)

Since there are issues with lethal injection and the administration of such, I wonder if the appropriate bullets will be used or aim will do likewise.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28252500 - 03/29/23 06:18 AM (9 months, 25 days ago)

I guess if they lined them up in front of an artillery piece they could get around the inherent cruelty of shooting someone to death but it seems to me that it would still be unusual.


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28252505 - 03/29/23 06:35 AM (9 months, 25 days ago)

We should at least learn something from it , it should be a science experiment .
    We could take 10 people on death row put them in a space shuttle with 5 pissed off baboons and shoot them into orbit .


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Psilynut2] * 1
    #28252511 - 03/29/23 06:41 AM (9 months, 25 days ago)

That's not science, lol, it's just coliseum games with extra steps.

To be science you'd have to give the convicts knuckledusters.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28252536 - 03/29/23 07:15 AM (9 months, 25 days ago)

I got money on the baboons, those fuckers throw down.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #28253102 - 03/29/23 02:47 PM (9 months, 25 days ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
I got money on the baboons, those fuckers throw down.




Yes, baboons are vicious little monsters.

I've always imagined dying from a bullet to the head to be the best way to go. If we're going to have the death penalty, I think it is reasonable to do it this way.

I don't know why they can't just use fentanyl for lethal injection, instead of difficult to obtain, obscure drug cocktails.


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Edited by Bigbadwooof (03/29/23 02:48 PM)


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa] * 2
    #28253146 - 03/29/23 03:18 PM (9 months, 25 days ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
I guess if they lined them up in front of an artillery piece they could get around the inherent cruelty of shooting someone to death but it seems to me that it would still be unusual.




Less unusual than using experimental chemical cocktails.

If it were up to me I’m choosing the firing squad. I know bullets will kill me pretty quickly. Don’t want to be electrocuted or poisoned.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #28253178 - 03/29/23 03:37 PM (9 months, 25 days ago)

A firing squad is a pretty gentlemanly way to go.

Criminals get the noose. :crankey:


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: mycosis] * 2
    #28253195 - 03/29/23 03:50 PM (9 months, 25 days ago)

Not sure I’d want the theatrics of being lined up on the wall and all that anticipation, just double tap me in my sleep or something don’t have to be a dick about it


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #28253238 - 03/29/23 04:21 PM (9 months, 25 days ago)

The theatrics are the whole point of executions.

Also, considering one of the reasons they're considering firing squads is because they can't get any half-decently qualified people to be executioners and keep botching it...you really think it's gonna be all that painless to have a bunch of half-tard yokels plink away at you for however long it takes them to finally hit something important?


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos] * 3
    #28253494 - 03/29/23 07:15 PM (9 months, 25 days ago)

I guess I would take a Pall Mall unfiltered, maybe a nice silky white covering for my eyes and hope they put the dummy load in all rifles.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #28253817 - 03/29/23 09:57 PM (9 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Not sure I’d want the theatrics of being lined up on the wall and all that anticipation, just double tap me in my sleep or something don’t have to be a dick about it




You just amended my "best way to die". Yeah, that sounds even better! Better than a bullet to the head, is a bullet to the head, while I'm dead ass asleep.

Honestly, if I could arrange that, I wouldn't even care what day or time it happened. What a luxury, to be able to die that way! I always imagine I will go from an accidental drug overdose or some kind of crazy accident, so... A random bullet to the head would be nice.


Edited by Bigbadwooof (03/29/23 10:01 PM)


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #28253893 - 03/29/23 10:42 PM (9 months, 24 days ago)

If you live in the US, that's not an entirely unreasonable scenario.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos]
    #28253932 - 03/29/23 11:54 PM (9 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
The theatrics are the whole point of executions.

Also, considering one of the reasons they're considering firing squads is because they can't get any half-decently qualified people to be executioners and keep botching it...you really think it's gonna be all that painless to have a bunch of half-tard yokels plink away at you for however long it takes them to finally hit something important?




Yeah essentially you cannot retain a license to practice medicine if you participate in executions


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: koods]
    #28254075 - 03/30/23 04:36 AM (9 months, 24 days ago)

Why traumatize a squad of people with the uncertainty of potentially having killed someone?



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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Asante]
    #28254234 - 03/30/23 07:53 AM (9 months, 24 days ago)

I think you'd have a good amount of volunteers. Not many repeats, though.

And yes, they will probably need therapy. Or alcohol.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos]
    #28254245 - 03/30/23 08:00 AM (9 months, 24 days ago)

In Utopia, happy slaves were used for all hunting and butchering activities because Thomas Moore thought that killing and chopping up animals desensitizes people to violence. As someone who has killed and chopped up fish and such many times, I think he's probably right, to an extent.  Like, I don't especially like killing them if I can help it but it doesn't cause me any particular distress either.

In other words, it would naturally be a more accepted method in rural areas with hunting traditions.  If you can kill Bambi('s mom), you can kill a murderer or some such, right?


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Offlinechristopera
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa] * 2
    #28254320 - 03/30/23 08:56 AM (9 months, 24 days ago)

Ideally we'd just stop incardinating 1% of the population and start some sort of real reform practices. Death penalty's are also massively expensive. It's cheaper to put the person in a cage for their entire life. And let's be honest, our legal system is hardly just or fair.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #28254322 - 03/30/23 08:58 AM (9 months, 24 days ago)

One of the biggest reasons for the development of the Final Solution was the psychological effects of mass executions. Participating in the executions was entirely voluntary, and most Wehrmacht and SS soldiers did volunteer. However, officers noted that most soldiers could only carry out one or two executions before they refused to carry out any more executions, and became significantly withdrawn and less capable even on the battlefield.

A very small minority of soldiers were capable of as many as a dozen executions before they cracked.

So while I do think you'll have a bunch of gung ho volunteers ready to pull the trigger the first time, they will not be there the second time. And good chance that the ones that did pull the trigger the first time will be pretty messed up afterwards. Even the veterans that have seen some shit will likely be messed up. There is a very big difference between shooting Bambi or shooting someone trying to kill you, and shooting someone who presents no threat and is unarmed.


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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos]
    #28254382 - 03/30/23 09:22 AM (9 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
If you live in the US, that's not an entirely unreasonable scenario.




True.

But more true in many other parts of the world.


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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: christopera]
    #28254391 - 03/30/23 09:27 AM (9 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
Ideally we'd just stop incardinating 1% of the population and start some sort of real reform practices. Death penalty's are also massively expensive. It's cheaper to put the person in a cage for their entire life. And let's be honest, our legal system is hardly just or fair.




I think lifers should have a choice. Life in prison, or firing squad. Personally, I'd rather die than spend the rest of my life in prison.


--------------------
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FARTS
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Every one of you should see this video.
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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #28254398 - 03/30/23 09:32 AM (9 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
If you live in the US, that's not an entirely unreasonable scenario.




True.

But more true in many other parts of the world.




Yeah, I guess the gun violence rate in eastern Ukraine is statistically a bit higher than in the US right now.


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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos]
    #28254443 - 03/30/23 10:01 AM (9 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
If you live in the US, that's not an entirely unreasonable scenario.




True.

But more true in many other parts of the world.




Yeah, I guess the gun violence rate in eastern Ukraine is statistically a bit higher than in the US right now.




I didn't say the "White Western world". I said the world.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #28254478 - 03/30/23 10:28 AM (9 months, 24 days ago)

I mean, you've got what, Ukraine, Venezuela, Brazil...that's about it for places with more gun violence than the US.


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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos]
    #28254498 - 03/30/23 10:37 AM (9 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
I mean, you've got what, Ukraine, Venezuela, Brazil...that's about it for places with more gun violence than the US.




That's an exhaustive list, huh?

Fun fact, the majority of gun deaths in the US are suicides.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: christopera]
    #28254536 - 03/30/23 11:01 AM (9 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
Ideally we'd just stop incardinating 1% of the population and start some sort of real reform practices. Death penalty's are also massively expensive. It's cheaper to put the person in a cage for their entire life. And let's be honest, our legal system is hardly just or fair.




And lose out on slave labor? Get real bucko


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #28254571 - 03/30/23 11:21 AM (9 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
I mean, you've got what, Ukraine, Venezuela, Brazil...that's about it for places with more gun violence than the US.




Without looking up the latest stats, Guatamala, Mexico, El Salvador, Swaziland, and South Africa all come to mind.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #28254573 - 03/30/23 11:23 AM (9 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
I mean, you've got what, Ukraine, Venezuela, Brazil...that's about it for places with more gun violence than the US.




Without looking up the latest stats, Guatamala, Mexico, El Salvador, Swaziland, and South Africa all come to mind.





If we’re not counting active war zones then it’s typically those half dozen South American countries, Mexico, Brazil, and us.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #28254576 - 03/30/23 11:25 AM (9 months, 24 days ago)

Mexico oscillates above and below us, Mexico was safer than the US five years ago. I guess it depends on how many Texans need a little extra cash to make rent that month.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos]
    #28254589 - 03/30/23 11:31 AM (9 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Mexico oscillates above and below us, Mexico was safer than the US five years ago. I guess it depends on how many Texans need a little extra cash to make rent that month.




I have doubts about the accuracy of that statement. IIRC Mexico's homicide rate was something like 26 compared to something like 4 in the U.S. 5 years ago

Hard to believe there were enough ax murders to overcome 5hat kind of discrepancy.

I may be misremembering.


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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28254727 - 03/30/23 01:28 PM (9 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Mexico oscillates above and below us, Mexico was safer than the US five years ago. I guess it depends on how many Texans need a little extra cash to make rent that month.




I have doubts about the accuracy of that statement. IIRC Mexico's homicide rate was something like 26 compared to something like 4 in the U.S. 5 years ago

Hard to believe there were enough ax murders to overcome 5hat kind of discrepancy.

I may be misremembering.




You have an impeccable memory, ballsauce. Like I said, the majority of gun deaths in America are suicides. That skews the numbers, so people can make claims like the claim kryptos was making.


Edited by Bigbadwooof (03/30/23 01:29 PM)


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #28254944 - 03/30/23 03:46 PM (9 months, 24 days ago)

Do suicides normally not count as death?


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #28257714 - 04/01/23 02:13 PM (9 months, 22 days ago)

Most people aren't thinking about self inflicted violence when they hear the term 'gun violence'.  Regardless, guns may happen to be convenient, effective and reliable instruments of suicide but so are ropes, fumes and gasses of various kinds and leaps off of very tall structures.  To my knowledge there are no classifications for rope violence or nitrogen violence w/re to suicide so I'm not sure why guns should be the exception here.


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OfflineIce9
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28257735 - 04/01/23 02:30 PM (9 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
I mean, you've got what, Ukraine, Venezuela, Brazil...that's about it for places with more gun violence than the US.




Without looking up the latest stats, Guatamala, Mexico, El Salvador, Swaziland, and South Africa all come to mind.





Those are all excellent countries.  I am glad to see that the US keeps such statistical company.  I wonder how the US would fare in this metric when compared to other high income countries?  Surely, the US is number one then.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28257738 - 04/01/23 02:31 PM (9 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Most people aren't thinking about self inflicted violence when they hear the term 'gun violence'.  Regardless, guns may happen to be convenient, effective and reliable instruments of suicide but so are ropes, fumes and gasses of various kinds and leaps off of very tall structures.  To my knowledge there are no classifications for rope violence or nitrogen violence w/re to suicide so I'm not sure why guns should be the exception here.




Probably because it would be more accurate to qualify those under suicides. I've never heard of a mass tying with multiple casualties, and the whole mass gassing thing has kinda fallen out of favor over the last 80 years (although I think it might be making a comeback).

When someone dies at the barrel of a gun, it's not guaranteed to be a suicide or an erotic accident.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos]
    #28257912 - 04/01/23 04:32 PM (9 months, 22 days ago)

Not sure how mass casualty events tie in with the suicide angle.  Maybe I'm just not picking up what you're putting down.  Can you help me out?


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #28258163 - 04/01/23 07:19 PM (9 months, 22 days ago)

A rope is not an effective offensive weapon. A gun is.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28258168 - 04/01/23 07:29 PM (9 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Most people aren't thinking about self inflicted violence when they hear the term 'gun violence'.  Regardless, guns may happen to be convenient, effective and reliable instruments of suicide but so are ropes, fumes and gasses of various kinds and leaps off of very tall structures.  To my knowledge there are no classifications for rope violence or nitrogen violence w/re to suicide so I'm not sure why guns should be the exception here.




To juke the numbers, so Kryptos's panties get all bundly and twisty-tied.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #28258368 - 04/01/23 09:56 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

It can be, in a pinch, if it's a nice hefty bit of rope but ok, sure.  That seems like a distinction without a difference in the suicide context and if we aren't counting suicides then we're back to your claim that a person in Mexico 5 years ago was less likely than U.S. citizen to be shot to death and my natural skepticism regarding it's accuracy.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos]
    #28258424 - 04/01/23 10:31 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

I've got a weird story about this subject:

Every time I used to try to argue for this idea, it got shot down by conservatives who then proceeded to argue against the death penalty as a whole. As a result, I'm sometimes tempted to argue against the death penalty as a whole when talking to conservatives, but I feel like that would also be rejected. I'm confused about what the conservative position actually is on the death penalty. I don't really know the liberal position either, because I also hear liberals talking for or against the death penalty.

Are there actually consistent liberal and conservative positions on the death penalty at all? I'm no longer convinced that there are.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: nooneman]
    #28258804 - 04/02/23 08:32 AM (9 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
I've got a weird story about this subject:

Every time I used to try to argue for this idea, it got shot down by conservatives who then proceeded to argue against the death penalty as a whole. As a result, I'm sometimes tempted to argue against the death penalty as a whole when talking to conservatives, but I feel like that would also be rejected. I'm confused about what the conservative position actually is on the death penalty. I don't really know the liberal position either, because I also hear liberals talking for or against the death penalty.

Are there actually consistent liberal and conservative positions on the death penalty at all? I'm no longer convinced that there are.




Why don't you focus on what your position is, and forget all the divisive, ridiculous nonsense. Liberals are no longer liberals, in the traditional sense, and the same goes for conservatives. These days, there is a re-kerjiggering (Technical term) of what it means to be either, but the real truth is that they have always been generalities anyway.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28258887 - 04/02/23 09:32 AM (9 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
It can be, in a pinch, if it's a nice hefty bit of rope but ok, sure.  That seems like a distinction without a difference in the suicide context and if we aren't counting suicides then we're back to your claim that a person in Mexico 5 years ago was less likely than U.S. citizen to be shot to death and my natural skepticism regarding it's accuracy.




You know, now that I've slept on it, I realize that I was wrong. Offensive rope use is possible, and actually severely restricted. The monkey's fist is illegal to tie or carry in many states because a length of rope with a monkey's fist tied at the end was a common self defense weapon carried by sailors on shore leave.

Of course, this doesn't relate to guns at all. Just because guns are a potentially dangerous weapon commonly used in crime, like a monkey's fist, they are completely different and we need more guns to prevent crime. Just like how the cops stopped the Uvalde shooting and the armed teachers stopped the Nashville shooting.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos]
    #28258893 - 04/02/23 09:36 AM (9 months, 21 days ago)



Inb4 constitutional right to gun and not rope, completely ignoring the whole "well regulated militia" portion


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Ice9]
    #28258900 - 04/02/23 09:38 AM (9 months, 21 days ago)

I guess it is evidence that banning dangerous rope based weapons did, in fact, prevent mass rope violence.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #28258910 - 04/02/23 09:47 AM (9 months, 21 days ago)

It is funny.  I am not a ban guns kind of guy, I even own a pair of them.  At the same time, I do recognize that the evidence is quite clear, if the US banned guns, made them difficult, if not impossible to get, gun violence (both people shooting others and people shooting themselves), will go down.  People who argue it wouldn't are being obstinate or willfully obtuse.  We need only look at how effective it was in Australia.  I also recognize though, that there is clearly other factors in play, along with the ease of access of guns in the US, that strongly contributes to the gun violence issue here.  One needs only look at high per capita gun owning countries that occupy a similar socio-economic bracket, such as many Nordic countries to see a stark difference.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Ice9]
    #28258938 - 04/02/23 10:24 AM (9 months, 21 days ago)

I've had this conversation with koods many times. 

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25021282#25021282

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
3)I would love to read your weeks long analysis.  Here is an off the cuff 10 minute analysis in the meantime.
In 1996 (the same year as the Port Arthur Massacre), the official homicide rate in Australia was 1.7/100,000.
http://www.ausstats.abs.gov.au/ausstats/free.nsf/0/AEA456A1A5E09337CA25722500049615/$File/45100_1996.pdf
In 2014 it was 1.0, a significant decrease.  http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/4510.02016?OpenDocument
In 1996 the official homicide rate in the U.S. was 7.4/100,000
In 2014 it was 4.4, a significant decrease.
Yet the firearms restrictions applied in Australia over this time period were much more stringent.  If gun restriction were the cause of the lower homicide rate, wouldn't you expect Australia's homicide rate to drop much more dramatically than the U.S?





In 1996, 47% of households owned a gun
In 2016, 36% of households owned a gun

In 1994, the homicide rate was 9.0 when the assault weapons ban took effect, when it expired in 2004 the homicide rate was 5.4

So, we have two possible gun related reasons why the homicide rate dropped so much in the mid 90s until now: an assault weapons ban and a 28% reduction in gun ownership




Your first point is the same as the graph you posted much earlier in the thread, and my response is the same as well.
It sounds like younger people aren't purchasing firearms at the rates that older gun owners have in the past, in other words, gun ownership as a percentage of households is not meeting it's replacement rate.  If that is the case, then what are you worried about?  The issue will solve itself without any further prodding.

On your second point, the homicide rate continued to drop in the 10 years following the expiration of the assault rifle ban, so the ban itself can't account for the full drop.

In any event, the restrictions enacted in Australia were much more stringent.  Why isn't there more of a disparity in homicide rate decline?




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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #28258944 - 04/02/23 10:29 AM (9 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
It can be, in a pinch, if it's a nice hefty bit of rope but ok, sure.  That seems like a distinction without a difference in the suicide context and if we aren't counting suicides then we're back to your claim that a person in Mexico 5 years ago was less likely than U.S. citizen to be shot to death and my natural skepticism regarding it's accuracy.




You know, now that I've slept on it, I realize that I was wrong. Offensive rope use is possible, and actually severely restricted. The monkey's fist is illegal to tie or carry in many states because a length of rope with a monkey's fist tied at the end was a common self defense weapon carried by sailors on shore leave.

Of course, this doesn't relate to guns at all. Just because guns are a potentially dangerous weapon commonly used in crime, like a monkey's fist, they are completely different and we need more guns to prevent crime. Just like how the cops stopped the Uvalde shooting and the armed teachers stopped the Nashville shooting.




Look, it seems pretty obvious that fewer guns means less gun violence and I'm not disputing that, although that makes little difference to me unless the total homicide rate also decreased significantly as a result.  I haven't seen evidence for that, much like your claim that Mexico was safer than the U.S. vis-a-vis gun violence 5 years ago


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28258964 - 04/02/23 10:41 AM (9 months, 21 days ago)

Gun control in America is a silly topic... It doesn't matter what the stats are.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28258980 - 04/02/23 10:48 AM (9 months, 21 days ago)

I suspect I cannot answer that question to your satisfaction, particularly as I am using it as a point of comparison between the US and and Australia, but here goes my totally off the cuff and analysis (no idea if anyone has legitimately looked into this).

The reasons the homicide rates dropped is unlikely to be 100% specific and correlated to any gun laws.  This is because not all homicides are committed with guns.  So a fair bit of disambiguation of the data needs to be done as to what other factors were in play that resulted in the change.

Now, add in comparing these rate declines across two different populations with many distinct factors that influence these declines and things get even more sticky.

Now, I suspect if I left it at that, you would follow up claiming that if that is the case, then using Australia as an example of banning guns when compared to the US vis a vis the homicide rate is an invalid comparison.

Except:  I never said homicide rate, I said GUN VIOLENCE (on others and on self).  This is a very intentional distinction because, for the reasons noted above, the comparison does not work otherwise.

EDIT: Just read a pretty decent review of the literature located

https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/analysis/essays/1996-national-firearms-agreement.html
(I know, some people view them as biased, but this is a lit review :shrug:)

Now I am unsure what to think.  There is consistent data on the drop, but only certain statistical models show significance (step function) and only multiple models showing significance on female victim homicide rates.  Looks like the NFA was a pretty mixed bag all things considered, with some effect on overall gun homicide, a large effect on gun suicide and female victim gun homicide and a huge effect on mass shootings.


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Edited by Ice9 (04/02/23 10:52 AM)


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Ice9]
    #28259013 - 04/02/23 11:08 AM (9 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Except:  I never said homicide rate, I said GUN VIOLENCE (on others and on self).  This is a very intentional distinction because, for the reasons noted above, the comparison does not work otherwise.




Exactly, another distinction without a difference.  Without guns it is just as easy (maybe easier) to inflict violence on oneself with a rope or a long walk off a short pier.  Without some evidence I'm going to have a hard time believing that a determined suicide attempt could be thwarted by simply not having guns around.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28259044 - 04/02/23 11:31 AM (9 months, 21 days ago)

That is the issue is it not.  Research shows that suicide is very impulsive, it is why suicide prevention hotlines work, if you stop the person in the moment, they generally do not attempt it.  This is also the danger with gun accessibility.  Guns require no thought or planning, and are exceptionally effective (because turning living things into dead things is sort of the raison d'etre of guns).

Quote:

The impulsivity of suicide provides opportunities to reduce suicide risk by restriction of access to lethal means of suicide (“means restriction”). Numerous medical organizations and governmental agencies, including the WHO,5 the European Union,10 the Department of Health in England,11 the American College of Physicians,12 the CDC,4,13 and the Institute of Medicine,14 have recommended that means restriction be included in suicide prevention strategies. In the United States, firearms are the most common means of suicide,15 with a suicide attempt with a firearm more likely to be fatal than most other means.16 In a study of case fatality rates in the northeastern United States, it was found that 91% of suicide attempts by firearms resulted in death.17 By comparison, the mortality rate was 84% by drowning and 82% by hanging; poisoning with drugs accounted for 74% of acts but only 14% of fatalities. Many studies have shown that the vast majority of those who survive a suicide attempt do not go on to die by suicide. A systematic review of 90 studies following patients after an event of self-harm found that only two percent went on to die by suicide in the following year and that seven percent had died by suicide after more than nine years.18



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3518361/

There is tons of research on this as well.  This is a main reason these distinctions you claim are meaningless are actually very important.  Distinctions allow us to drill down on issues and get really granular data.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28259048 - 04/02/23 11:34 AM (9 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Except:  I never said homicide rate, I said GUN VIOLENCE (on others and on self).  This is a very intentional distinction because, for the reasons noted above, the comparison does not work otherwise.




Exactly, another distinction without a difference.  Without guns it is just as easy (maybe easier) to inflict violence on oneself with a rope or a long walk off a short pier.  Without some evidence I'm going to have a hard time believing that a determined suicide attempt could be thwarted by simply not having guns around.






Look at the data from '96 onward after implementation of NFA.  Gun suicides dropped by about 60%.  Suicides by other means increased by about 5%


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Ice9]
    #28259094 - 04/02/23 12:01 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

The summed totals from around '96 and the end of the graph look pretty similar to the eye.  What does the data say about the delta between the absolute number of suicide by any means?


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28259120 - 04/02/23 12:21 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

You can see the data at

https://www.aihw.gov.au/suicide-self-harm-monitoring/data/deaths-by-suicide-in-australia/suicide-deaths-over-time

The absolute number has gone up (population growth) from about 2400 in 1995 and 1996 to about 3300 in 2017-2019 each.

Rates fell from about 13.2/100k in 1995 and 1996 to to 12ish for '21 and '22.  T2004 through 2013 rate was around 10.5/100k with big increase after.

I would caution about drawing conclusions with regards to any means, explained in the Rand review is a good break down

Quote:

Interpreting changes in nonfirearm deaths based on a law intended to affect firearm deaths is difficult. The NFA focused on firearms specifically, but most researchers have evaluated the effects of the policy on both firearm and nonfirearm outcomes. Many researchers have argued that the causal effect of a policy intended to reduce firearm-related outcomes should be questioned if a similar trend is observed in nonfirearm outcomes, because the policy was not intended to influence that outcome. However, there may be reasons why a policy that was intended to reduce firearm-related suicide has an ancillary effect in reducing nonfirearm suicides. For example, there may be fewer imitative suicides (both firearm and nonfirearm) if there is a reduction in firearm suicides. But existing research suggests that clustering in Australia accounts for 5.6 percent of youth suicides and 2.3 percent of adult suicides (Robinson et al., 2016), suggesting that the spillover effect of the NFA on nonfirearm suicides due to contagion is likely to be relatively small.




the TL;DR for that is sussing out causal effects is pretty hard with out a control.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Ice9]
    #28259127 - 04/02/23 12:32 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

13.2 vs 12 is a pretty small delta and it seems like the data isn't really there to draw strong conclusions about why this small decrease occurred for the reasons you just pointed out.  In my discussion with koods I used the U.S. stats to compare and contrast the homicide rate of decline post '96.  Maybe there is similar data we could compare for suicides


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28259146 - 04/02/23 12:59 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

A 10% reduction is small... ok.  Further, there was a 30% reduction in the years I mentioned with a subsequent uptick for reasons that are not all obvious.

I hate to say this, but you don't seem to be discussing this honestly.  You refuse to use gun based stats, despite my posting of why comparing non-gun based statistics do not make sense when discussing the effects of a law that specifically and only targets guns. :shrug:  Maybe you want to bring some relevant data to the table, and I will dismiss it as not significant, or of not a large enough value, or dismiss it out of hand because I think it is too narrow or too broad.

:imout:


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Ice9]
    #28259202 - 04/02/23 01:50 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

I understand that expressing absolute numbers as relatively impressive sounding statistics is a common trope in discussions about firearms.  The one I usually hear is about how the homicide rate in the U.S. is 300-ish percent higher than the U.K. 

"For reasons that are not all obvious"

Like, yeah, that's my point, lol

And yeah, it is worthwhile to consider whether or not gun legislation actually achieves the desired effect rather than simply reclassify one kind of death as another.  We can't do that if we examine only the gun related deaths and declare victory based on arbitrarily granular data.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #28259211 - 04/02/23 01:56 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

Are we presuming that a reduction of suicide is societally desirable?


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #28259221 - 04/02/23 02:00 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

That's the presumption, yes


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28259314 - 04/02/23 03:21 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
It can be, in a pinch, if it's a nice hefty bit of rope but ok, sure.  That seems like a distinction without a difference in the suicide context and if we aren't counting suicides then we're back to your claim that a person in Mexico 5 years ago was less likely than U.S. citizen to be shot to death and my natural skepticism regarding it's accuracy.




You know, now that I've slept on it, I realize that I was wrong. Offensive rope use is possible, and actually severely restricted. The monkey's fist is illegal to tie or carry in many states because a length of rope with a monkey's fist tied at the end was a common self defense weapon carried by sailors on shore leave.

Of course, this doesn't relate to guns at all. Just because guns are a potentially dangerous weapon commonly used in crime, like a monkey's fist, they are completely different and we need more guns to prevent crime. Just like how the cops stopped the Uvalde shooting and the armed teachers stopped the Nashville shooting.




Look, it seems pretty obvious that fewer guns means less gun violence and I'm not disputing that, although that makes little difference to me unless the total homicide rate also decreased significantly as a result.  I haven't seen evidence for that, much like your claim that Mexico was safer than the U.S. vis-a-vis gun violence 5 years ago




The Mexico having less gun violence death came from an odd website that I can't seem to find again. Claimed that the US was at 16.2/100k while Mexico was at 15.9/100k in 2018. Sounds a little low on both counts, TBH.

If you agree that fewer guns results in less gun violence, why is it so hard to believe that fewer guns causes less suicide and homicide? We see sustained drops in suicide when nets get hung over bridges, because as Ice9 has pointed out, suicide is impulsive.

From what I can tell, violence is also mostly impulsive. An argument gets out of hand, especially if alcohol or bravado is involved...and then people die, because guns make it very easy to kill people. Beating someone to death or stabbing someone to death is significantly harder than shooting someone. That's why places that have fewer guns generally have more assaults and fewer homicides--people are more likely to walk away from a disagreement outside of the US.

Reminds me of helmets in WWI--as soon as they became standard issue, head injuries skyrocketed. Now that shell fragment was causing a concussion instead of an impromptu lobotomy.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos]
    #28259367 - 04/02/23 03:53 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

If we accept that argument at face value, and I will for the sake of discussion, then the question becomes one of to what extent would removing guns from the equation actually lowers the suicide rates.  It's easy to see how limited access to firearms lowers homicide rates because guns are much more effective at killing other people than ropes.  The same isn't as clear with suicide.  Rope is more ubiquitous, cheaper, etc. than firearms and comparable in effect when welded against oneself.

If we can suss out an answer there then the question becomes one of how much of a discrepancy we are willing to tolerate in order to retain firearms access.  This, I think, is the discussion we ultimately need to have as a society.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28259381 - 04/02/23 04:05 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

You are operating from a false premise.  That people seeking to commit suicide would find another way if a gun was not available.  The majority of suicides that is simply not true.



https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine/magazine_article/guns-suicide/

https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/handgun-ownership-associated-with-much-higher-suicide-risk.html

This is not a new idea, nor is it poorly understood.  Gun access increases suicide success rates.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Ice9] * 1
    #28259422 - 04/02/23 04:17 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

So a small difference...


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Enlil]
    #28259458 - 04/02/23 04:29 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

300% more is not small.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Ice9] * 2
    #28259478 - 04/02/23 04:47 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

2000 a year is,  and that represents 24 million gun owners. It's a small price to pay for freedom


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #28259481 - 04/02/23 04:55 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

I am specifically not arguing in favor or against gun control.  I am merely pointing out the effects unfettered accessibility of guns has. :shrug:  I think one could pretty safely make the argument that would drop that number of excess suicide gun deaths quite a bit with simply owners locking up their guns.  This would be effective against suicide attempts that occur by someone living in a gun owning household that is not the gun owner.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Enlil]
    #28259483 - 04/02/23 04:56 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

Just chiming in to say that this discussion is a lot more interesting to me than hashing out whether Trump or Biden is the more mentally defective President for the umpteenth time.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Ice9] * 1
    #28259487 - 04/02/23 04:58 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

What is an "excess suicide?"

Shouldn't everyone who wants to commit suicide have access to proper tools?


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Enlil]
    #28259586 - 04/02/23 06:16 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

Sure, but maybe "proper tools" would involve some minor counseling or reflection, or at the very least not burden society with the cleanup.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Enlil]
    #28259590 - 04/02/23 06:18 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
What is an "excess suicide?"

Shouldn't everyone who wants to commit suicide have access to proper tools?




As a humanitarian.. I say yes.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos]
    #28259592 - 04/02/23 06:18 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Sure, but maybe "proper tools" would involve some minor counseling or reflection, or at the very least not burden society with the cleanup.




Damn... That's a pretty callous about-face.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #28259636 - 04/02/23 06:49 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Sure, but maybe "proper tools" would involve some minor counseling or reflection, or at the very least not burden society with the cleanup.



Seems to me like society is always left with the cleanup.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Enlil]
    #28259668 - 04/02/23 07:12 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

Still easier to clean up solids than liquids.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #28259676 - 04/02/23 07:17 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

Death almost always leaves both.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos]
    #28259755 - 04/02/23 08:30 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Death almost always leaves both.




Yeah... and some things inbetween.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Still easier to clean up solids than liquids.




Aren't you the one that was advocating for war as a jobs program, for weapons manufacturers? Clean-up crews for dead bodies make excellent money. Suicide is a great jobs program ;-)... The more liquids the better.


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Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos]
    #28260011 - 04/03/23 04:41 AM (9 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
It can be, in a pinch, if it's a nice hefty bit of rope but ok, sure.  That seems like a distinction without a difference in the suicide context and if we aren't counting suicides then we're back to your claim that a person in Mexico 5 years ago was less likely than U.S. citizen to be shot to death and my natural skepticism regarding it's accuracy.




You know, now that I've slept on it, I realize that I was wrong. Offensive rope use is possible, and actually severely restricted. The monkey's fist is illegal to tie or carry in many states because a length of rope with a monkey's fist tied at the end was a common self defense weapon carried by sailors on shore leave.

Of course, this doesn't relate to guns at all. Just because guns are a potentially dangerous weapon commonly used in crime, like a monkey's fist, they are completely different and we need more guns to prevent crime. Just like how the cops stopped the Uvalde shooting and the armed teachers stopped the Nashville shooting.




Damn, in tree work we use monkey fist knots all the time. Had no idea it could be illegal.


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