|
Ice9
3X Ban Lotto Champion



Registered: 03/20/14
Posts: 11,225
Loc: daterapeville,USA
Last seen: 1 hour, 25 minutes
|
Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa]
#28257735 - 04/01/23 02:30 PM (9 months, 22 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
Kryptos said: I mean, you've got what, Ukraine, Venezuela, Brazil...that's about it for places with more gun violence than the US.
Without looking up the latest stats, Guatamala, Mexico, El Salvador, Swaziland, and South Africa all come to mind.
Those are all excellent countries. I am glad to see that the US keeps such statistical company. I wonder how the US would fare in this metric when compared to other high income countries? Surely, the US is number one then.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,258
Last seen: 9 hours, 19 minutes
|
Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa]
#28257738 - 04/01/23 02:31 PM (9 months, 22 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ballsalsa said: Most people aren't thinking about self inflicted violence when they hear the term 'gun violence'. Regardless, guns may happen to be convenient, effective and reliable instruments of suicide but so are ropes, fumes and gasses of various kinds and leaps off of very tall structures. To my knowledge there are no classifications for rope violence or nitrogen violence w/re to suicide so I'm not sure why guns should be the exception here.
Probably because it would be more accurate to qualify those under suicides. I've never heard of a mass tying with multiple casualties, and the whole mass gassing thing has kinda fallen out of favor over the last 80 years (although I think it might be making a comeback).
When someone dies at the barrel of a gun, it's not guaranteed to be a suicide or an erotic accident.
|
ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,795
Loc: Foreign Lands
|
Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos]
#28257912 - 04/01/23 04:32 PM (9 months, 22 days ago) |
|
|
Not sure how mass casualty events tie in with the suicide angle. Maybe I'm just not picking up what you're putting down. Can you help me out?
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,258
Last seen: 9 hours, 19 minutes
|
Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#28258163 - 04/01/23 07:19 PM (9 months, 22 days ago) |
|
|
A rope is not an effective offensive weapon. A gun is.
|
Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,291
Last seen: 29 seconds
|
Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa]
#28258168 - 04/01/23 07:29 PM (9 months, 22 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ballsalsa said: Most people aren't thinking about self inflicted violence when they hear the term 'gun violence'. Regardless, guns may happen to be convenient, effective and reliable instruments of suicide but so are ropes, fumes and gasses of various kinds and leaps off of very tall structures. To my knowledge there are no classifications for rope violence or nitrogen violence w/re to suicide so I'm not sure why guns should be the exception here.
To juke the numbers, so Kryptos's panties get all bundly and twisty-tied.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
|
ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,795
Loc: Foreign Lands
|
Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos] 1
#28258368 - 04/01/23 09:56 PM (9 months, 21 days ago) |
|
|
It can be, in a pinch, if it's a nice hefty bit of rope but ok, sure. That seems like a distinction without a difference in the suicide context and if we aren't counting suicides then we're back to your claim that a person in Mexico 5 years ago was less likely than U.S. citizen to be shot to death and my natural skepticism regarding it's accuracy.
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
|
nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,555
Loc: Utah
|
Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos]
#28258424 - 04/01/23 10:31 PM (9 months, 21 days ago) |
|
|
I've got a weird story about this subject:
Every time I used to try to argue for this idea, it got shot down by conservatives who then proceeded to argue against the death penalty as a whole. As a result, I'm sometimes tempted to argue against the death penalty as a whole when talking to conservatives, but I feel like that would also be rejected. I'm confused about what the conservative position actually is on the death penalty. I don't really know the liberal position either, because I also hear liberals talking for or against the death penalty.
Are there actually consistent liberal and conservative positions on the death penalty at all? I'm no longer convinced that there are.
|
Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,291
Last seen: 29 seconds
|
Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: nooneman]
#28258804 - 04/02/23 08:32 AM (9 months, 21 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
nooneman said: I've got a weird story about this subject:
Every time I used to try to argue for this idea, it got shot down by conservatives who then proceeded to argue against the death penalty as a whole. As a result, I'm sometimes tempted to argue against the death penalty as a whole when talking to conservatives, but I feel like that would also be rejected. I'm confused about what the conservative position actually is on the death penalty. I don't really know the liberal position either, because I also hear liberals talking for or against the death penalty.
Are there actually consistent liberal and conservative positions on the death penalty at all? I'm no longer convinced that there are.
Why don't you focus on what your position is, and forget all the divisive, ridiculous nonsense. Liberals are no longer liberals, in the traditional sense, and the same goes for conservatives. These days, there is a re-kerjiggering (Technical term) of what it means to be either, but the real truth is that they have always been generalities anyway.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,258
Last seen: 9 hours, 19 minutes
|
Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa]
#28258887 - 04/02/23 09:32 AM (9 months, 21 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ballsalsa said: It can be, in a pinch, if it's a nice hefty bit of rope but ok, sure. That seems like a distinction without a difference in the suicide context and if we aren't counting suicides then we're back to your claim that a person in Mexico 5 years ago was less likely than U.S. citizen to be shot to death and my natural skepticism regarding it's accuracy.
You know, now that I've slept on it, I realize that I was wrong. Offensive rope use is possible, and actually severely restricted. The monkey's fist is illegal to tie or carry in many states because a length of rope with a monkey's fist tied at the end was a common self defense weapon carried by sailors on shore leave.
Of course, this doesn't relate to guns at all. Just because guns are a potentially dangerous weapon commonly used in crime, like a monkey's fist, they are completely different and we need more guns to prevent crime. Just like how the cops stopped the Uvalde shooting and the armed teachers stopped the Nashville shooting.
|
Ice9
3X Ban Lotto Champion



Registered: 03/20/14
Posts: 11,225
Loc: daterapeville,USA
Last seen: 1 hour, 25 minutes
|
Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos]
#28258893 - 04/02/23 09:36 AM (9 months, 21 days ago) |
|
|

Inb4 constitutional right to gun and not rope, completely ignoring the whole "well regulated militia" portion
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,258
Last seen: 9 hours, 19 minutes
|
Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Ice9]
#28258900 - 04/02/23 09:38 AM (9 months, 21 days ago) |
|
|
I guess it is evidence that banning dangerous rope based weapons did, in fact, prevent mass rope violence.
|
Ice9
3X Ban Lotto Champion



Registered: 03/20/14
Posts: 11,225
Loc: daterapeville,USA
Last seen: 1 hour, 25 minutes
|
Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos] 1
#28258910 - 04/02/23 09:47 AM (9 months, 21 days ago) |
|
|
It is funny. I am not a ban guns kind of guy, I even own a pair of them. At the same time, I do recognize that the evidence is quite clear, if the US banned guns, made them difficult, if not impossible to get, gun violence (both people shooting others and people shooting themselves), will go down. People who argue it wouldn't are being obstinate or willfully obtuse. We need only look at how effective it was in Australia. I also recognize though, that there is clearly other factors in play, along with the ease of access of guns in the US, that strongly contributes to the gun violence issue here. One needs only look at high per capita gun owning countries that occupy a similar socio-economic bracket, such as many Nordic countries to see a stark difference.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
|
ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,795
Loc: Foreign Lands
|
Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Ice9]
#28258938 - 04/02/23 10:24 AM (9 months, 21 days ago) |
|
|
I've had this conversation with koods many times.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25021282#25021282
Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
ballsalsa said: 3)I would love to read your weeks long analysis. Here is an off the cuff 10 minute analysis in the meantime. In 1996 (the same year as the Port Arthur Massacre), the official homicide rate in Australia was 1.7/100,000. http://www.ausstats.abs.gov.au/ausstats/free.nsf/0/AEA456A1A5E09337CA25722500049615/$File/45100_1996.pdf In 2014 it was 1.0, a significant decrease. http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/4510.02016?OpenDocument In 1996 the official homicide rate in the U.S. was 7.4/100,000 In 2014 it was 4.4, a significant decrease. Yet the firearms restrictions applied in Australia over this time period were much more stringent. If gun restriction were the cause of the lower homicide rate, wouldn't you expect Australia's homicide rate to drop much more dramatically than the U.S?
In 1996, 47% of households owned a gun In 2016, 36% of households owned a gun
In 1994, the homicide rate was 9.0 when the assault weapons ban took effect, when it expired in 2004 the homicide rate was 5.4
So, we have two possible gun related reasons why the homicide rate dropped so much in the mid 90s until now: an assault weapons ban and a 28% reduction in gun ownership
Your first point is the same as the graph you posted much earlier in the thread, and my response is the same as well. It sounds like younger people aren't purchasing firearms at the rates that older gun owners have in the past, in other words, gun ownership as a percentage of households is not meeting it's replacement rate. If that is the case, then what are you worried about? The issue will solve itself without any further prodding.
On your second point, the homicide rate continued to drop in the 10 years following the expiration of the assault rifle ban, so the ban itself can't account for the full drop.
In any event, the restrictions enacted in Australia were much more stringent. Why isn't there more of a disparity in homicide rate decline?
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
|
ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,795
Loc: Foreign Lands
|
Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Kryptos] 1
#28258944 - 04/02/23 10:29 AM (9 months, 21 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
ballsalsa said: It can be, in a pinch, if it's a nice hefty bit of rope but ok, sure. That seems like a distinction without a difference in the suicide context and if we aren't counting suicides then we're back to your claim that a person in Mexico 5 years ago was less likely than U.S. citizen to be shot to death and my natural skepticism regarding it's accuracy.
You know, now that I've slept on it, I realize that I was wrong. Offensive rope use is possible, and actually severely restricted. The monkey's fist is illegal to tie or carry in many states because a length of rope with a monkey's fist tied at the end was a common self defense weapon carried by sailors on shore leave.
Of course, this doesn't relate to guns at all. Just because guns are a potentially dangerous weapon commonly used in crime, like a monkey's fist, they are completely different and we need more guns to prevent crime. Just like how the cops stopped the Uvalde shooting and the armed teachers stopped the Nashville shooting.
Look, it seems pretty obvious that fewer guns means less gun violence and I'm not disputing that, although that makes little difference to me unless the total homicide rate also decreased significantly as a result. I haven't seen evidence for that, much like your claim that Mexico was safer than the U.S. vis-a-vis gun violence 5 years ago
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
|
Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,291
Last seen: 29 seconds
|
Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa]
#28258964 - 04/02/23 10:41 AM (9 months, 21 days ago) |
|
|
Gun control in America is a silly topic... It doesn't matter what the stats are.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
|
Ice9
3X Ban Lotto Champion



Registered: 03/20/14
Posts: 11,225
Loc: daterapeville,USA
Last seen: 1 hour, 25 minutes
|
Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa]
#28258980 - 04/02/23 10:48 AM (9 months, 21 days ago) |
|
|
I suspect I cannot answer that question to your satisfaction, particularly as I am using it as a point of comparison between the US and and Australia, but here goes my totally off the cuff and analysis (no idea if anyone has legitimately looked into this).
The reasons the homicide rates dropped is unlikely to be 100% specific and correlated to any gun laws. This is because not all homicides are committed with guns. So a fair bit of disambiguation of the data needs to be done as to what other factors were in play that resulted in the change.
Now, add in comparing these rate declines across two different populations with many distinct factors that influence these declines and things get even more sticky.
Now, I suspect if I left it at that, you would follow up claiming that if that is the case, then using Australia as an example of banning guns when compared to the US vis a vis the homicide rate is an invalid comparison.
Except: I never said homicide rate, I said GUN VIOLENCE (on others and on self). This is a very intentional distinction because, for the reasons noted above, the comparison does not work otherwise.
EDIT: Just read a pretty decent review of the literature located
https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/analysis/essays/1996-national-firearms-agreement.html (I know, some people view them as biased, but this is a lit review )
Now I am unsure what to think. There is consistent data on the drop, but only certain statistical models show significance (step function) and only multiple models showing significance on female victim homicide rates. Looks like the NFA was a pretty mixed bag all things considered, with some effect on overall gun homicide, a large effect on gun suicide and female victim gun homicide and a huge effect on mass shootings.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
Edited by Ice9 (04/02/23 10:52 AM)
|
ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,795
Loc: Foreign Lands
|
Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Ice9]
#28259013 - 04/02/23 11:08 AM (9 months, 21 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Except: I never said homicide rate, I said GUN VIOLENCE (on others and on self). This is a very intentional distinction because, for the reasons noted above, the comparison does not work otherwise.
Exactly, another distinction without a difference. Without guns it is just as easy (maybe easier) to inflict violence on oneself with a rope or a long walk off a short pier. Without some evidence I'm going to have a hard time believing that a determined suicide attempt could be thwarted by simply not having guns around.
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
|
Ice9
3X Ban Lotto Champion



Registered: 03/20/14
Posts: 11,225
Loc: daterapeville,USA
Last seen: 1 hour, 25 minutes
|
Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa]
#28259044 - 04/02/23 11:31 AM (9 months, 21 days ago) |
|
|
That is the issue is it not. Research shows that suicide is very impulsive, it is why suicide prevention hotlines work, if you stop the person in the moment, they generally do not attempt it. This is also the danger with gun accessibility. Guns require no thought or planning, and are exceptionally effective (because turning living things into dead things is sort of the raison d'etre of guns).
Quote:
The impulsivity of suicide provides opportunities to reduce suicide risk by restriction of access to lethal means of suicide (“means restriction”). Numerous medical organizations and governmental agencies, including the WHO,5 the European Union,10 the Department of Health in England,11 the American College of Physicians,12 the CDC,4,13 and the Institute of Medicine,14 have recommended that means restriction be included in suicide prevention strategies. In the United States, firearms are the most common means of suicide,15 with a suicide attempt with a firearm more likely to be fatal than most other means.16 In a study of case fatality rates in the northeastern United States, it was found that 91% of suicide attempts by firearms resulted in death.17 By comparison, the mortality rate was 84% by drowning and 82% by hanging; poisoning with drugs accounted for 74% of acts but only 14% of fatalities. Many studies have shown that the vast majority of those who survive a suicide attempt do not go on to die by suicide. A systematic review of 90 studies following patients after an event of self-harm found that only two percent went on to die by suicide in the following year and that seven percent had died by suicide after more than nine years.18
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3518361/
There is tons of research on this as well. This is a main reason these distinctions you claim are meaningless are actually very important. Distinctions allow us to drill down on issues and get really granular data.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
|
Ice9
3X Ban Lotto Champion



Registered: 03/20/14
Posts: 11,225
Loc: daterapeville,USA
Last seen: 1 hour, 25 minutes
|
Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: ballsalsa]
#28259048 - 04/02/23 11:34 AM (9 months, 21 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
Except: I never said homicide rate, I said GUN VIOLENCE (on others and on self). This is a very intentional distinction because, for the reasons noted above, the comparison does not work otherwise.
Exactly, another distinction without a difference. Without guns it is just as easy (maybe easier) to inflict violence on oneself with a rope or a long walk off a short pier. Without some evidence I'm going to have a hard time believing that a determined suicide attempt could be thwarted by simply not having guns around.

Look at the data from '96 onward after implementation of NFA. Gun suicides dropped by about 60%. Suicides by other means increased by about 5%
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
|
ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,795
Loc: Foreign Lands
|
Re: Firing Squad Death Penalty [Re: Ice9]
#28259094 - 04/02/23 12:01 PM (9 months, 21 days ago) |
|
|
The summed totals from around '96 and the end of the graph look pretty similar to the eye. What does the data say about the delta between the absolute number of suicide by any means?
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
|
|