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OfflineElmonte
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Is there ANY scientific evidence that mentions the different cubensis strains?
    #28242462 - 03/23/23 07:19 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Hi, how are you?

I'm conducting some (amateur) research on the different cubensis strains, but I can't seem to find any studies/reviews/papers that mention them. Only a few name P. Envy and G. Teachers, but often using them as synonyms for the whole cubensis species.

I've searched and searched for an authoritative database of the different varieties to no avail. Could any of you point me in the right direction? I know a lot of people in this forum have conducted some research on their own β€” yet, I'm specifically looking for authoritative papers on the subject.

Thanks!

Edited by Elmonte (03/23/23 07:19 AM)

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OfflineDERRAYLD
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Re: Is there ANY scientific evidence that mentions the different cubensis strains? [Re: Elmonte] * 2
    #28242537 - 03/23/23 08:15 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Cubensis is cubensis, PE and the newer varieties have been isolated for potency but they're still cubensis.

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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: Is there ANY scientific evidence that mentions the different cubensis strains? [Re: DERRAYLD] * 1
    #28244740 - 03/24/23 01:38 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

:whathesaid: im not sure what info youre looking for...?

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InvisibleveggieM

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Re: Is there ANY scientific evidence that mentions the different cubensis strains? [Re: Elmonte] * 2
    #28244811 - 03/24/23 02:12 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)



Edit:
You will find numerous 'strain' threads on The Shroomery that can get your research off to a good start.

The best quote I have seen on the topic is:

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:

Strains have such a little bearing on the product you end up getting, talk of them is mostly wasted keystrokes. However, so many new mushroom growers come from weed growing where strain is everything, we keep the strain thread up there for them. If not for the strain thread, at least 25% of our total posts would be about strains. There used to be four or five strain threads on every page and all it does is clutter up the forum and waste bandwidth.

What we do is whenever the strain thread gets too full, such as now, we dump it and start another. If everyone is in agreement to shitcan the current one, I can dump it in a day or two, and open a fresh one. Save anything you consider worth saving before it goes away.

However, don't hold out hopes. A brand new strain thread will soon look just like the old one, which is the third or fourth generation.

A subforum would just make people think that strains actually meant something. The truth is, when two hyphae from spores meet and exchange genetic information, a strain is born. Sometimes thousands of strains are born from a single squirt of spore solution, thus the name on the syringe often means little.

A few strains have beeen fairly well stabilized by mycologists, but consider that the fancier the name, the less likely it is to be anything else but some marketing trick someone made up.
RR



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OfflineEclipse3130
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Re: Is there ANY scientific evidence that mentions the different cubensis strains? [Re: veggie] * 1
    #28245465 - 03/25/23 12:03 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

All cubensis species tested produce a string of alkaloids, mostly being psilocybin. The breakdown product psilocin. And the precursors baeocystin and norbaeocystin.

Cubensis have not been shown to produce any unique compounds outside of what they all produce, some are stronger, some are weaker.

For that matter most other psilocybin mushrooms have shown the same results.

Different varieties of cubensis don't produce unique effects, but they can certainly look, taste and smell different. Some will be stronger some will be weaker, that's where you get most people saying "this strain gives you a body high" most likely just weak, and "this strain gives you crazy visuals" most likely strong


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Offlinetholos
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Re: Is there ANY scientific evidence that mentions the different cubensis strains? [Re: Eclipse3130] * 1
    #28248868 - 03/27/23 07:35 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Like others have said, this terminology seems to be superficial


"Strain" is being used as a term to describe a specific genetic variant or phenotypical isolation

If we imagine two human beings standing side by side -- one is 7 feet tall and the other is 5 feet tall. The phenotypical differences can be striking visually. But they are both humans.

In this analogy, 7 feet tall or 5 feet tall, (Golden Teacher vs Penis Envy) they're both homo sapiens. (Just as GT and PE are both p. cubensis)

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InvisibleveggieM

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Re: Is there ANY scientific evidence that mentions the different cubensis strains? [Re: Elmonte] * 1
    #28249164 - 03/27/23 11:42 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

I don't know if OP is still following this thread, but I did come across this online post by Andrew R. Gallimore (Alien Insect) which may be of interest to him and possibly others:

Alkaloid profiles of Psilocybe and related mushrooms

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Is there ANY scientific evidence that mentions the different cubensis strains? [Re: Elmonte] * 5
    #28249303 - 03/27/23 01:31 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Elmonte said:
I've searched and searched for an authoritative database of the different varieties to no avail. Could any of you point me in the right direction? I know a lot of people in this forum have conducted some research on their own β€” yet, I'm specifically looking for authoritative papers on the subject.






There are three validly published varieties of Psilocybe cubensis - all are synonymous with the type variety in my opinion.


Psilocybe cubensis (Earle) Singer 1948
Psilocybe cubensis var. caerulescens (Pat.) Singer & A.H. Sm. 1958
Psilocybe cubensis var. cubensis (Earle) Singer 1948
Psilocybe cubensis var. cyanescens (Murrill) Singer & A.H. Sm. 1958

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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: Is there ANY scientific evidence that mentions the different cubensis strains? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #28250010 - 03/27/23 09:01 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

This study isn't exactly what you're looking for but is relevant. It doesn't explore 'named varieties' but does examine the psilocybin content of three different cultures. They're not really 'strains', but they derive them from three genetic sources and find interesting variations in alkaloid content.

Variation of psilocybin and psilocin levels with repeated flushes (harvests) of mature sporocarps of Psilocybe cubensis (earle) singer
Jeremy Bigwood, Michael W. Beug


Quote:

Analysis of Psilocybe cubensis (Earle) Singer grown in controlled culture showed that the level of psilocin was generally zero in the first (or sometimes even the second) fruiting of the mushroom from a given culture and that the level reached a maximum by the fourth flush. The level of psilocybin, which was nearly always at least twice the level of psilocin, showed no upward or downward trend as fruiting progressed, but was variable over a factor of four. Samples obtained from outside sources had psilocybin levels varying by over a factor of ten from one collection to the next.







Here's the full text on sci-hub.

My interpretation of the results is that there is a lot of variation to alkaloid content even within the same culture; one culture performed somewhat better but it basically evened out over four flushes.

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OfflineElmonte
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Re: Is there ANY scientific evidence that mentions the different cubensis strains? [Re: Elmonte] * 1
    #28252504 - 03/29/23 06:28 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Sorry for not answering guys, some stuff kept me away from my computer for a few days. Thanks for all your help! The info you provided was what I needed.

In conclusion, and as I suspected, strains don't seem to actually exist outside of marketing fads :tongue:.

Edited by Elmonte (03/30/23 09:12 AM)

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Is there ANY scientific evidence that mentions the different cubensis strains? [Re: Elmonte] * 2
    #28253144 - 03/29/23 03:17 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Elmonte said:
In conclusion, and as I suspected, strains don't seem to actually exist outside of marketing fads :tongue:.





What is your definition of strain?

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OfflineElmonte
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Re: Is there ANY scientific evidence that mentions the different cubensis strains? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #28254105 - 03/30/23 05:56 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

I'd probably define it as a set variation among a species, which has the ability to alter the psychedelic experience in a specific way. As such, the existence of strains would mean that you could alter your trips significantly by choosing one strain over another.

There's no doubt that varieties DO exist, as many cubensis specimens differ greatly from each other. But the whole concept of "strains" among psychonauts necessarily involves a specific impact on the trips.

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OfflineYahra
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Re: Is there ANY scientific evidence that mentions the different cubensis strains? [Re: Elmonte] * 1
    #28254108 - 03/30/23 06:06 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)


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OfflineCorundum
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Re: Is there ANY scientific evidence that mentions the different cubensis strains? [Re: Yahra] * 2
    #28257761 - 04/01/23 02:51 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

cube is a cube! also strains are different from varieties which is what youre talking about


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Edited by Corundum (04/01/23 02:52 PM)

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Is there ANY scientific evidence that mentions the different cubensis strains? [Re: Corundum] * 1
    #28260156 - 04/03/23 08:04 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Corundum said:
cube is a cube! also strains are different from varieties which is what youre talking about





I wouldn't use variety because that is a formal taxonomic rank which needs to be validly published according to the rules of botanical nomenclature.  Some cubensis varieties have been formally published, see https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28249303#28249303.

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Invisiblemyc_ousin_vinny
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Re: Is there ANY scientific evidence that mentions the different cubensis strains? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #28260966 - 04/03/23 05:36 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Damn, we’ve been calling them varieties in the cultivation forum since I joined. What do we call them then? Strains?

I understand you are the authority on this kind of thing.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Is there ANY scientific evidence that mentions the different cubensis strains? [Re: myc_ousin_vinny] * 2
    #28268403 - 04/08/23 09:16 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

myc_ousin_vinny said:
Damn, we’ve been calling them varieties in the cultivation forum since I joined. What do we call them then? Strains?

I understand you are the authority on this kind of thing.





I call them strains, but some people use other terms.  Every couple of years I read a long winded rant about this and typically come back to the conclusion that strain is the best name.  I am open to calling them something else if there's a compelling reason to.


I don't consider myself an authority, I am just a guy that spends a lot of time in the woods.

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Offlinejohnukguy
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Re: Is there ANY scientific evidence that mentions the different cubensis strains? [Re: Alan Rockefeller] * 1
    #28272706 - 04/11/23 11:20 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Ah, so I can go back to calling them strains, instead of varieties, which frankly just felt better anyway. Good to know.


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Invisiblebakedbeings
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Re: Is there ANY scientific evidence that mentions the different cubensis strains? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #28272927 - 04/11/23 02:03 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

myc_ousin_vinny said:
Damn, we’ve been calling them varieties in the cultivation forum since I joined. What do we call them then? Strains?

I understand you are the authority on this kind of thing.





I call them strains, but some people use other terms.  Every couple of years I read a long winded rant about this and typically come back to the conclusion that strain is the best name.  I am open to calling them something else if there's a compelling reason to.


I don't consider myself an authority, I am just a guy that spends a lot of time in the woods.



can differently named cubes be reliably differentiated by their genes, or is diligent labelling the only thing keeping golden teacher and treasure coast from being the same thing?

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Is there ANY scientific evidence that mentions the different cubensis strains? [Re: bakedbeings] * 3
    #28274053 - 04/12/23 07:36 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

bakedbeings said:
can differently named cubes be reliably differentiated by their genes, or is diligent labelling the only thing keeping golden teacher and treasure coast from being the same thing?




Yes, there are some techniques to do this, but the standard inexpensive DNA barcoding that is used to differentiate different species doesn't work because all cube strains have the exact same DNA barcode.

Full genome sequencing and SNP analysis can do it.

Finding reliable reference sequences is difficult - so you can see which strains are the same and make a phylogenetic tree, but putting solid names on them is harder.

See https://www.researchgate.net/publication/352954488_A_whole_genome_atlas_of_81_Psilocybe_genomes_as_a_resource_for_psilocybin_production7-2-21

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