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OfflineKa Faraq Gatri
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Headaches following psilocybin trips
    #27181272 - 02/01/21 03:58 PM (3 years, 29 days ago)

Aloha, Shoomery. I tried posting this on r/AskDrugNerds, but I thought I'd cross-post it here, too, to see if I can get some feedback. Thanks.

I am not new to psychedelics in general or psilocybin in particular, but I’ve increasingly been experiencing headaches after psilocybin trip, even on moderate doses (e.g. three dried grams of Psilocybe cubensis mushrooms). I experienced occasional headaches in the past after using mushrooms much more frequently (weekly) and very high doses (i.e. ten-plus grams of dried mushrooms). I don’t trip as often these days, nor as hard, but the headaches come on after every trip now. I don’t want to give up psychedelics, but I also don’t want to be laid out with a headache every time.

Could anyone help me understand what’s going on, so that I can try to mitigate the issue going forward?

Some hypotheses that I’ve been considering:

➡️ There is some subtle change in the weather that coincidentally occurs after every trip—and I’m just unlucky enough to hit it each time I trip.

➡️ There is something in my diet these days that is reacting to the psilocybin. (I’m lacto-ovo vegetarian. I try to avoid soy, but it’s in everything—and I use soy sauce to flavor food fairly occasionally.)

➡️ I’m probably chronically dehydrated, and tripping dehydrates me even more—resulting in a headache. Sometimes chugging water helps the headache for awhile, but it never goes away completely, and it always comes back to full-strength.

➡️ The way I’ve been taking mushrooms lately has been contributing: powdered and mixed in peanut butter (the amino acids seem to potentiate the psilocybin), and then these are dipped in milk chocolate. My other go-to method is to soak dried, broken-up mushrooms in orange or grapefruit juice for twenty or thirty minutes, then strain out the mushroom gunk. I can’t remember how often headaches occur with this method, but I know they have.

➡️Not enough sleep in general.

Two papers on PubMed standout as potentially pointing in the direction of an answer:

“Psilocybin dose-dependently causes delayed, transient headaches in healthy volunteers.” Possible mechanisms for these observations are discussed, and include induction of delayed headache through nitric oxide release. These data suggest that headache is an adverse event to be expected with the nonmedical use of psilocybin-containing mushrooms as well as the administration of psilocybin in human research. Headaches were neither severe nor disabling, and should not present a barrier to future psilocybin research.

Comments: I don’t wake up with headaches, like a hangover, but they come on within hours of waking up. I would describe my headaches as severe enough to try to take a nap, and they will persist for roughly eighteen hours. I’ve even woken up in the middle of the night with the headache continuing—although by the next morning it’s dissipated.

“Simultaneous Production of Psilocybin and a Cocktail of β‐Carboline Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors in “Magic” Mushrooms.” Our analysis of four Psilocybe species identified harmane, harmine, and a range of other l‐tryptophan‐derived β‐carbolines as their natural products, which was confirmed by 1D and 2D NMR spectroscopy.

Comments: This seems to be the more significant paper, since it shows that mushrooms produce their own MAOI, which makes them orally-active. I’ve wondered about this for awhile, but this isn’t my field. It does seem to corroborate my second hypothesis concerning food. Would it therefore be useful or appropriate to follow the ayahuasca dieta when planning a mushroom experience?

(The author(s) of the link about the ayahuasca dieta comment that “the main symptom of MAOI reaction is a headache that can be severe and can last for days. This is caused by a sudden spike in blood pressure.” Mine don’t last for days, but it isn’t pleasant.)

Is there something else that I may be missing or not considering when it comes to headaches following psilocybin use? I just want to understand this, and I'd like to get some other perspectives.

Thanks for your feedback—I appreciate it.


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Headaches following psilocybin trips [Re: Ka Faraq Gatri] * 1
    #27181323 - 02/01/21 04:21 PM (3 years, 29 days ago)

No need to be concerned about diet/food/tyramine, for one Harmala's are RIMA's (reversible inhibitors of MAO-A) and as such are not like MAOI's requiring dietary restrictions. Secondly, the amount of Harmalas found in those particular strains of mushrooms aren't anywhere near enough of an amount to do anything, they are in trace concentrations and much more research is needed to explain why they're there in the first place.

Also, just as an aside, i myself sometimes have had headaches during Psychedelic experiences with or without Harmalas, and i've noticed it correlates with messed up teeth causing headaches, at least in my case. Also speaking of Harmala's, they can cause headaches themselves due to Acetylcholinesterase inhibition, as well as because of vasodilation.

So you can definitely rule out dietary concerns/MAOI stuff.


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Headaches following psilocybin trips [Re: Sabnock]
    #27181337 - 02/01/21 04:26 PM (3 years, 29 days ago)

With all that said though, if you wanted to, you could try adjusting your diet to see if it'd make any impact. MAOI or not, it's good to play around with diet and see if you notice any differences. We consume some things that are inflammatory to some degree, like Caffeine/coffee/tea, or sugar/hfcs, or some other things. We may also be lacking some in some sort of vitamins or minerals. Certain medications people take can also interfere with things to some degree or cause some weird reactions/side-effects like body aches or headaches or neck/shoulder or jaw tension or muscle spasms etc, if they're in your system at the same time as a Psychedelic.

Personally for me though, i'm pretty sure any headaches i've had in the last decade was because of my teeth primarily, but also because of Acetylcholinesterase inhibition by the Harmalas or Alpha/Beta-Pinene.


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OfflineMushroomNewbie2
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Re: Headaches following psilocybin trips [Re: Ka Faraq Gatri]
    #27181348 - 02/01/21 04:33 PM (3 years, 29 days ago)

I'll wake up and feel just fine and then be caught off guard by headaches and dizziness after a harder trip.
But I think in my case it's dehydration.
I don't drink while tripping and I don't drink too much during the come down (but I know I have to so I do) because it can sometimes make me queezy.
Try tripping earlier (if not already) so you're not up into the night.
Be sure to drink plenty of water.
Oh and I smoke weed to take care of any bad feelings the day after tripping.
Cheers!


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OfflineTyperwritermonky
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Re: Headaches following psilocybin trips [Re: MushroomNewbie2] * 1
    #27181351 - 02/01/21 04:35 PM (3 years, 29 days ago)

I tend to get a headache towards the end of any psychedelic experience, but it's a different kind of headache.  More like just complete mental and psychic exhaustion.  I find it definitely has to do with water and protein intake throughout the day.

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OfflineKa Faraq Gatri
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Re: Headaches following psilocybin trips [Re: Sabnock]
    #27181551 - 02/01/21 06:45 PM (3 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Sabnock said:
With all that said though, if you wanted to, you could try adjusting your diet to see if it'd make any impact. MAOI or not, it's good to play around with diet and see if you notice any differences. We consume some things that are inflammatory to some degree, like Caffeine/coffee/tea, or sugar/hfcs, or some other things. We may also be lacking some in some sort of vitamins or minerals. Certain medications people take can also interfere with things to some degree or cause some weird reactions/side-effects like body aches or headaches or neck/shoulder or jaw tension or muscle spasms etc, if they're in your system at the same time as a Psychedelic.

Personally for me though, i'm pretty sure any headaches i've had in the last decade was because of my teeth primarily, but also because of Acetylcholinesterase inhibition by the Harmalas or Alpha/Beta-Pinene.




I'm gonna give it a shot and see what happens. That's an interesting idea about acetylcholinesterase inhibition. I'll pop some Alpha GCP capsules, too.


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--
Professional archaeologist and art historian. I study visual culture and themes of time, memory, and identity in ancient contexts, as well as the role of archaeology, archaeologists, and museums in the era of climate change. Good times.

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OfflineKa Faraq Gatri
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Re: Headaches following psilocybin trips [Re: MushroomNewbie2]
    #27181560 - 02/01/21 06:50 PM (3 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomNewbie2 said:
I'll wake up and feel just fine and then be caught off guard by headaches and dizziness after a harder trip.
But I think in my case it's dehydration.
I don't drink while tripping and I don't drink too much during the come down (but I know I have to so I do) because it can sometimes make me queezy.
Try tripping earlier (if not already) so you're not up into the night.
Be sure to drink plenty of water.
Oh and I smoke weed to take care of any bad feelings the day after tripping.
Cheers!




I'm gonna do a better job about drinking at least eight to ten glasses of water a day this week, and then see what happens next weekend. Maybe get some Gatorade, too. Sometimes I'm just too stoned by the mushrooms and my water bottle is just a little too far out of reach, so all I can do is laugh about it and be thirsty. Lol


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--
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OfflineKa Faraq Gatri
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Re: Headaches following psilocybin trips [Re: Typerwritermonky]
    #27181574 - 02/01/21 06:54 PM (3 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Typerwritermonky said:
I tend to get a headache towards the end of any psychedelic experience, but it's a different kind of headache.  More like just complete mental and psychic exhaustion.  I find it definitely has to do with water and protein intake throughout the day.




I know what you mean about this, but I don't think this is that same kind of headache. I'm pretty sure it's some kind of imbalance I've got going on. Problem is that psilocybin can sometimes help with migraines and cluster headaches, which makes searching for answers trickier, even when you try to exclude certain terms.

Sometimes I get a kind of psychedelic fatigue when I trip hard too often—almost like what you're saying—but I think the headaches are separate from that.


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Professional archaeologist and art historian. I study visual culture and themes of time, memory, and identity in ancient contexts, as well as the role of archaeology, archaeologists, and museums in the era of climate change. Good times.

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InvisibleCHUCK.HNTR
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Re: Headaches following psilocybin trips [Re: Ka Faraq Gatri] * 1
    #27181761 - 02/01/21 08:50 PM (3 years, 29 days ago)

I get really dehydrated when trip or spend long hours out in the elements so when I trip outside it’s a double dose. Have you tried hydrating before during and after with coconut water (juice)? For me water isn’t enough coconut water is the best or electrolyte tables that they sell at out door stores like REI.


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"What is the practical application of a million universes?" -Alan Watts
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InvisibleMindMeower
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Re: Headaches following psilocybin trips [Re: CHUCK.HNTR]
    #27182019 - 02/01/21 11:26 PM (3 years, 29 days ago)

I have linked my posttrip headaches to lack of salts in my body. I start passing a lto of water during most of my trips and I simply drain out my salts. I have found that drinking mineral water helps and also eating a bag of potato chips etc. or having a nice proper meal.


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M(e)owing minds :mushroom2:

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OfflineKa Faraq Gatri
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Re: Headaches following psilocybin trips [Re: CHUCK.HNTR]
    #27182647 - 02/02/21 10:45 AM (3 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

CHUCK.HNTR said:
I get really dehydrated when trip or spend long hours out in the elements so when I trip outside it’s a double dose. Have you tried hydrating before during and after with coconut water (juice)? For me water isn’t enough coconut water is the best or electrolyte tables that they sell at out door stores like REI.




Quote:

MindMeower said:
I have linked my posttrip headaches to lack of salts in my body. I start passing a lto of water during most of my trips and I simply drain out my salts. I have found that drinking mineral water helps and also eating a bag of potato chips etc. or having a nice proper meal.




I'm not a fan of coconut water, but that's a good idea about the salts/electrolytes. I might start chugging water and Gatorade for a few days before and during, and probably after, too, in addition to having a more basic diet for a bit. I used to eat a bunch of cheese crackers after my trips. I could pick some of those up, too. They're pretty salty.


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InvisibleCHUCK.HNTR
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Re: Headaches following psilocybin trips [Re: Ka Faraq Gatri]
    #27182670 - 02/02/21 10:54 AM (3 years, 28 days ago)

Gatorade is mostly just sugar these days. There are lots of good companies making tablets check your local sports store....here is a link not advocating for Amazon but just an example.
https://www.amazon.com/Nuun-Hydration-Electrolyte-Essential-Electrolytes/dp/B019GU4ILQ


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"What is the practical application of a million universes?" -Alan Watts
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Re: Headaches following psilocybin trips [Re: CHUCK.HNTR]
    #27182747 - 02/02/21 11:40 AM (3 years, 28 days ago)

That's odd because psilocybin works well for cluster headaches

I've only gotten pain in my flank when pissing on the come down. Idk why

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Offlinebsnow4
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Re: Headaches following psilocybin trips [Re: Ka Faraq Gatri]
    #27183664 - 02/02/21 08:49 PM (3 years, 28 days ago)

I always get some kind of headache with shrooms and tryptamime-based RC's (not with other psychedelics though).  The intensity of the headache is generally dose-dependent and varies in duration but I typically notice it towards the end of the comedown.  I think it is interesting that you have noticed your headaches happening more frequently with time.

My working theory is the headaches are likely due to both dehydration and some kind of buildup of a metabolite from the mushrooms themselves that either is a vasodilator or midly neurotoxic.  This could be a genetic component which explains why not everybody experiences headaches.  The article you linked on nitric oxide makes the most sense to me.

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Re: Headaches following psilocybin trips [Re: bsnow4]
    #27184599 - 02/03/21 01:46 PM (3 years, 27 days ago)

I would say, after a mushroom trip, on the come down, take an anti inflammatory, a lot of water, and maybe take some niacin

After I trip I always take some ibuprofen and a sports drink and then a good amount of sleep

Edit: you could also try taking lion's mane after tripping. Psilocybin is very non toxic, actually good for the brain, like most psychedelics

I would guess it's altered blood flow and exercised neurons with other neurons that previously didn't communicate, not to mention the psychologically taxing aspect of tripping...probably just mental fatigue

Edited by skOsH (02/03/21 02:00 PM)

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OfflineKa Faraq Gatri
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Re: Headaches following psilocybin trips [Re: bsnow4]
    #27187963 - 02/05/21 12:33 PM (3 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

bsnow4 said:
I always get some kind of headache with shrooms and tryptamime-based RC's (not with other psychedelics though).  The intensity of the headache is generally dose-dependent and varies in duration but I typically notice it towards the end of the comedown.  I think it is interesting that you have noticed your headaches happening more frequently with time.

My working theory is the headaches are likely due to both dehydration and some kind of buildup of a metabolite from the mushrooms themselves that either is a vasodilator or midly neurotoxic.  This could be a genetic component which explains why not everybody experiences headaches.  The article you linked on nitric oxide makes the most sense to me.




Well, the headache never comes up until the next day. I don't even wake up with it, but it does come on within a few hours. I do think there may be something to the nitric oxide point, but my problem is that I don't understand all the terminology. But if I read it correctly, psilocybin causes nitric oxide release, which can cause vasodilation. So, I need to counter that with something that causes vasoconstriction and/or blocks nitric oxide release. Does that sounds logical? 🤔


--------------------
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OfflineKa Faraq Gatri
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Re: Headaches following psilocybin trips [Re: skOsH]
    #27187970 - 02/05/21 12:38 PM (3 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

skOsH said:
I would say, after a mushroom trip, on the come down, take an anti inflammatory, a lot of water, and maybe take some niacin

After I trip I always take some ibuprofen and a sports drink and then a good amount of sleep

Edit: you could also try taking lion's mane after tripping. Psilocybin is very non toxic, actually good for the brain, like most psychedelics

I would guess it's altered blood flow and exercised neurons with other neurons that previously didn't communicate, not to mention the psychologically taxing aspect of tripping...probably just mental fatigue




Niacin is a good idea, and I'll try to find some lion's mane today, too. I'm familiar with what I call psychedelic fatigue, but this feels different. It's more physical than mental, but I'm going to try some good quality electrolytes, a diet that has less processed foods, more water, more sleep, and see what happens.


--------------------
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Re: Headaches following psilocybin trips [Re: Ka Faraq Gatri]
    #27191011 - 02/07/21 05:46 AM (3 years, 24 days ago)

I always get a headache and I drink close to a gallon of water a day. I just figured it was part of it kinda like dry mouth with weed. I just deal with it until it goes away.

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Re: Headaches following psilocybin trips [Re: Ka Faraq Gatri]
    #28241831 - 03/22/23 07:00 PM (11 months, 4 days ago)

Never had that with mushrooms, although LSD can leave my body feeling a bit crappy afterwards, standard stimulant stuff mostly.

It's possible that mushrooms might do this since they can treat cluster headaches, it might make sense that they could potentially cause headaches as a withdrawal effect. Generally a drug that does A does the opposite of A in withdrawal. So if mushrooms treat headaches, then in withdrawal they might cause them, potentially. That's not a totally airtight argument, drugs don't work exactly like that, but it's possible.

Don't force yourself to trip if you're not enjoying it or not enjoying how you feel afterwards.

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Re: Headaches following psilocybin trips [Re: Ka Faraq Gatri]
    #28242017 - 03/22/23 08:54 PM (11 months, 4 days ago)

:takingnotes:


--------------------
“Evey Hammond: Who are you?
V: Who? Who is but the form following the function of what and what I am is a man in a mask.
Evey Hammond: Well I can see that.
V: Of course you can. I'm not questioning your powers of observation I'm merely remarking upon the paradox of asking a masked man who he is”

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