Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 6 minutes
Re: Western Asceticism [Re: sudly]
    #28234764 - 03/18/23 09:25 AM (10 months, 6 days ago)

:thumbup:

Like I said you probably took more. I'm very simple and not that bright. Sometimes a gift passes me by and I don't even know it. Similarly I have my needs met already so it's no biggie. I didn't need the gift so hopefully it can go to another who has need of it.

I'm not trying to get anyone to be as I am. Just having some dialogue in the hopes another can shine a light on what they see in their neck of the woods.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Western Asceticism [Re: Kickle]
    #28234772 - 03/18/23 09:38 AM (10 months, 6 days ago)

I suppose my intention was to try and let people hear what I think it is to be as I am.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 6 minutes
Re: Western Asceticism [Re: sudly]
    #28234781 - 03/18/23 09:47 AM (10 months, 6 days ago)

Yeah, I'm definitely listening. I treasure your words :heart:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBuster_Brown
L'une
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,309
Last seen: 2 days, 4 hours
Re: Western Asceticism [Re: Kickle]
    #28234812 - 03/18/23 10:19 AM (10 months, 6 days ago)

A retrained, re-educated, mind might bear the prints of it's authors, I presume.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 6 minutes
Re: Western Asceticism [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28234821 - 03/18/23 10:24 AM (10 months, 6 days ago)

Although some gifts pass me by, not all do. Sometimes there is need of understanding. If someone can give clarity, I'll take a look at what is in the light and treasure it. Not sure on the author part but it's perpetual movement.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
Re: Western Asceticism [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28234829 - 03/18/23 10:26 AM (10 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I find the term "trust" misleading and the efforts to adjust trust are fraught with mis-understanding and mis-guidance.

How do you see trust? Letting others "in"? Or the absence of amygdala activation?

Trust is earned and I see your description of ceasing amygdala activation as relearning trust.

The question for me in regards to this is of course the following. Blind trust (not knowing better) was what initially triggered strong amygdala activation. And so one naturally would not want to go in blindly again.

In your description familiarity would be learning. But it is really learning familiarity and what it means to relax through non-engagement. It is the non-engagement which enables relaxation and to learn to trust your decision making again. I think the first engagement was of course very relaxed but it led to what? And so if one has earned relaxed and trustworthy non-engagement, what is earned through returning to the same type of relaxed but blind engagement? Or am I missing something about this proposed loop?




I look at the matter of TRUST as a meta-proposition, in other words we do not have any natural physical posture or stance for trusting.
What has evolved, however, is DEFENSIVENESS and boundary triggers on the one hand, and SUBMISSION behaviors on the other hand, which is not generally what those who would wish to promote their trust policies to others would like to think.

i.e. Trust as submission is a hard sell.

Hence the "invention" of trust instead of submission as a higher sounding function - something worthwhile and "cooperative" - there are many ways to sell it. (In a less immediate life and present feeling situation, trust pertains to signed binding legal (and banking) agreements which can be litigated if not respected).

So I say that trust is a meta-proposition for boundary management, and some dignity can be afforded with insightful and necessary boundary management (eg. to have sex, or hunt/work together), but there is no dignity in submission, and it is not necessary except in oppressive totalitarian regimes (like say, the Roman Empire, or the Trump-ist Republican Empire).

Otherwise, yes we are talking about relaxing - not fake trust, not fake submission, just relaxing the tightness's. This is not metaphysical - it is physical and mental.

We can say that not engaging with a tangential perception is part of concentration meditation.

The meditator acknowledges any perception and the following drifting, and returns to the matter of attention - relaxing into being present with the object(s) of attention. This has to be done whenever any reflexive distraction changes the mental contents from the matter(s) of attention.

We are talking about recovery from distraction using relaxing and beginning again. This is straightforward and can be generalized; it will be applied (reflexively) in life to circumstances that merit it, after you become more familiar with it.

The more situations in which you engage by relaxing and beginning again with any particular mental objects, the more the habit will kick in. It will have become more familiar and natural.

If you engage with tangential perceptions the mental contents will be shifted every few seconds. If you are already stoned or in an enhanced meditation absorption, then not only will the tangent take over, but each step of the way will rammify with fascinating complexity - and this is referred to often as MARA - or among drug trippers - tripping out.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 6 minutes
Re: Western Asceticism [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28234859 - 03/18/23 10:39 AM (10 months, 6 days ago)

What defines a tangent? I think you've presented some interesting stuff. But you've both said tangents are to be avoided and also that absorption in concentration is MARA. I don't follow this line. Open to clarification. Maybe even in :pm:?

This is not metaphysical - it is physical and mental.

When has it ever been otherwise?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBuster_Brown
L'une
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,309
Last seen: 2 days, 4 hours
Re: Western Asceticism [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28234865 - 03/18/23 10:41 AM (10 months, 6 days ago)

TL;DR

we do not have any natural physical posture or stance for trusting.


Babies and children do.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBuster_Brown
L'une
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,309
Last seen: 2 days, 4 hours
Re: Western Asceticism [Re: Kickle]
    #28234876 - 03/18/23 10:46 AM (10 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Although some gifts pass me by, not all do. Sometimes there is need of understanding. If someone can give clarity, I'll take a look at what is in the light and treasure it. Not sure on the author part but it's perpetual movement.




When emotion trumps reason theatrics predominates


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
Re: Western Asceticism [Re: Kickle]
    #28234889 - 03/18/23 11:00 AM (10 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
What defines a tangent? I think you've presented some interesting stuff. But you've both said tangents are to be avoided and also that absorption in concentration is MARA. I don't follow this line. Open to clarification. Maybe even in :pm:?

This is not metaphysical - it is physical and mental.

When has it ever been otherwise?



I did not say absorption is MARA,
during absorption or emotional states or being stoned, mental resonance for all mental object lasts longer so things stack up. It's great, I love it. can't get enough.
however
any perception that is not related directly to the matter of concentration in meditation is a distraction or tangential to the matter of attention.
AND
any tangent that you follow during absorption (or emotion or drugs) will rammify in more compelling and interesting ways, and that, is MARA.

the ramification of what is not your main interest is MARA, but let that sink in....
this does not mean that when your main interest is followed or ramifys, that you are not in delusion. Pretty much everything is delusion, or subject to opinion.

I do not mean tangents should not be followed, that is part of a creative process, but meditation is not that practice, it is about self soothing (taking refuge) and being more able to easily transcend being a perceptive reflex junkie.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Western Asceticism [Re: Kickle]
    #28234894 - 03/18/23 11:03 AM (10 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
What defines a tangent? I think you've presented some interesting stuff. But you've both said tangents are to be avoided and also that absorption in concentration is MARA. I don't follow this line. Open to clarification. Maybe even in :pm:?

This is not metaphysical - it is physical and mental.

When has it ever been otherwise?




When did I say tangents should be avoided?

Imo BB's contributions became irrelevant to the topic of the thread.

The more reflexive a behavioural response becomes to a trigger, the required awareness is reduced.

As an individuals toolbox of reflexive behavioral response to triggers grows, the act of becoming absorbed in concentration becomes less of a necessity imo. As a form of muscle memory established with practice.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
Re: Western Asceticism [Re: sudly]
    #28234901 - 03/18/23 11:08 AM (10 months, 6 days ago)

sudly, awareness is just the contents being reflected. some tangents are too interesting and compelling to support reflection IYKWIM. but there is still awareness or a conscious being travelling the tangent.

BB's job is to heckle, and he is good at it.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBuster_Brown
L'une
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,309
Last seen: 2 days, 4 hours
Re: Western Asceticism [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28234946 - 03/18/23 11:48 AM (10 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

BB's job is to heckle, and he is good at it.




And MARA indicates that "will rammify in more compelling and interesting ways"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Western Asceticism [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28234954 - 03/18/23 11:56 AM (10 months, 6 days ago)

And with more contents to be reflected on, the 'luminosity' of awareness may change, strengthening reflexive responses.

BB's contributions became incomprehensible imv. I meant to clearly state I was doen with said interaction as it had taken place. I wanted him to attempt to stay on topic and for a while he was, but eventually I think the message became unclear.

What I observed were his non-direct and unrelated responses were beyond the pale of what I think will productively contribute to this thread.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
Re: Western Asceticism [Re: sudly]
    #28235005 - 03/18/23 12:31 PM (10 months, 6 days ago)

as the shroomery is full of stoned idiots, we navigate each conversations on a wing and a prayer at every post.

we forget this is a play pen for both juveniles and striving minds & then we get defensive. sometimes the puppies just want to be tickled under their chins. Heel Heel, behave, sit. nothing works.

I have temporarily believed people got what I meant after working really hard to express myself clearly, only to discover that nothing sunk in a few days later and the usual pattern continues. i't ok really, it's ok.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Western Asceticism [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28235805 - 03/18/23 09:38 PM (10 months, 5 days ago)

I was honest with myself, I'm not here to tickle puppies.

I'd be in my lounge room for that.

As the paint dries, and the grass grows, the principles sink in.

And this sunk in.

Quote:

when you become familiar with the non-threat-ness of any particular boundary encroachment then that aspect of that boundary encroachment can be learned as a DO NOT AMYDALA-fie me now condition




That doesn't mean I've fully integrated or understood it, but that it sparked my curiosity and I am intrigued.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
All puppies aside [Re: sudly]
    #28235980 - 03/19/23 03:52 AM (10 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
...
And this sunk in.

Quote:

when you become familiar with the non-threat-ness of any particular boundary encroachment then that aspect of that boundary encroachment can be learned as a DO NOT AMYDALA-fie me now condition




That doesn't mean I've fully integrated or understood it, but that it sparked my curiosity and I am intrigued.




A class of things like "fancy girls" dressed to kill/dance/mate may become one of the categories that one may want kept at a distance. If any member of the FG class gets closer than 12 feet the amygdala kicks in, one crosses the street or becomes aggressive or both. This may be due to some chaotic and painful memory related to an FG encounter.

One may become friends with a librarian - discussing Proust, or insectivores, or temple designs, and that familiarity permits  the lowering of boundaries to the modest librarian. Coffee, a walk in the park, maybe dinner. take the bus together, the familiarity adds up. The amygdala is resting when the librarian comes near, and other things happen as well, making more familiarity.

Then one may meet up as she is dressed to Kill/dance/mate and one does not want to cross the street or behave like a bear. one sees the familiar person with whom one is familiar and the world opens up differently. The amygdala rests. However when faced with the strange or unknown at less than 12 feet it still kicks up a fuss.

it's just a story.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: All puppies aside [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28235981 - 03/19/23 04:02 AM (10 months, 5 days ago)

I prefer those ladies who giggle to jokes of Diogenes not wanting to climb out of his barrel.

I keep fine company.

I've never been in a fight before, but of the people I know, a surprising amount have been in a fight before.

I'll speak my boundaries, but physical aggression has never been a part of my repertoire.

This is about my personal development, I cherish the insights I've recieved to my fluid expressions of understanding.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
Re: All puppies aside [Re: sudly]
    #28235990 - 03/19/23 04:30 AM (10 months, 5 days ago)

good!
which fluid are we understanding most?


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: All puppies aside [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28235994 - 03/19/23 04:40 AM (10 months, 5 days ago)

That abstaining doesn't have to be pure in the beginning because it takes time and practice to develop personally relevant and helpful reflexive responses. I think a lot of reflection on situations experienced is imperitive for that development.

And that a sensitivity to percieved threats can be dialed down.

I don't see boundary encroachment as threatening though, I can just be a bit of a jovial ass and I like things my way sometimes. 

While there's a lot I can't control about the potential actions of the world around me, I do have influence on my own trajectory, and enough confidence to believe I can maintain it.

I think it took a lot for me to get to the point of being able to say that I don't think I percieve threat from the encroachment of the boundaries I personally uphold. I just don't like to keep quite about is as much as I used to.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* ASMR
( 1 2 3 all )
redgreenvines 3,049 47 12/31/13 05:31 PM
by Mr Person
* An ascetic life Syle 762 12 03/16/07 11:38 AM
by shizznit
* narrow mind, open mind Todcasil 1,550 11 06/27/04 11:52 PM
by Todcasil
* Is There Any Eternal Value To Existence?
( 1 2 all )
Source 3,434 25 07/02/04 06:48 PM
by Zahid
* The Value Of Life tekramrepus 349 4 04/16/03 05:03 PM
by RebelSteve33
* The Value of Nature
( 1 2 all )
jono 2,439 21 06/05/02 01:15 AM
by deepr
* Human mind vs body(Re:the self post)
( 1 2 all )
PsycheStudent 3,763 24 05/03/10 04:11 PM
by BluePixieWaves
* Evolutionary value of psilocybin?
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
butter_flyfish 10,268 90 11/27/02 09:46 AM
by Xlea321

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
1,386 topic views. 1 members, 16 guests and 9 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.028 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 13 queries.