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Invisibleburntkitty
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Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things * 1
    #28226335 - 03/12/23 11:48 AM (10 months, 12 days ago)

I've stolen plenty of candy bars in my time. I never feel bad about it. I never even feel bad that I'm in that position. I've gone through horrible trauma too many times to count though. I couldn't imagine anyone feeling bad about it, but it does seem someone who has had it tough would be less prone to feeling guilty for petty crime.

Have you ever found yourself feeling bad about something insignificant like that? Would it be some kind of mental disorder to feel guilty about something like that?


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Hating America doesn't make one racist, it probably means they're the complete opposite. That's not it's name pilgrim

Shia wang a genius he just kept showing his soft til the paparazzi stopped following

Thought capitalism was suppose to stop these soviet union lines

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What kind of sickness do they have for wanting the creative not creative. I can only imagine it's satanism


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: burntkitty] * 1
    #28226362 - 03/12/23 12:13 PM (10 months, 12 days ago)

Trauma does often lead to other disorders and I suspect people who haven't been traumatized are less likely to commit chronic petty theft and more likely to feel guilty when it happens. This is the opposite of a disorder.


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rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: Rahz]
    #28226416 - 03/12/23 01:06 PM (10 months, 12 days ago)

Are false syllogisms indicated in a disorder?


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Invisibleburntkitty
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: Rahz]
    #28226462 - 03/12/23 01:34 PM (10 months, 12 days ago)

I think you mean that is. I agree with what your saying. a slave stealing a chicken wouldn't be healthy for them to feel guilty though(presuming one was born into slavery and it wasn't indentured). Really it's all an analogy but the premise is that the crime is insignificant and one is feeling guilty when they clearly shouldn't, because of social norms that are unjust. Seems like a conformist psychological disorder. Maybe there's a term for it?


--------------------
Hating America doesn't make one racist, it probably means they're the complete opposite. That's not it's name pilgrim

Shia wang a genius he just kept showing his soft til the paparazzi stopped following

Thought capitalism was suppose to stop these soviet union lines

If you give me herpes, Ill give you AIDs

What kind of sickness do they have for wanting the creative not creative. I can only imagine it's satanism


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: burntkitty]
    #28226513 - 03/12/23 02:17 PM (10 months, 12 days ago)

I don't think it's reasonable to say that action has no significance as the cost is passed on to those who pay.

It's a petty crime so perhaps one should feel a little guilty? That would make more sense than suggesting guilt should be absent.

Unless of course guilt is seen in itself as a fault, though you don't seem to be making that argument.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: burntkitty]
    #28226515 - 03/12/23 02:21 PM (10 months, 12 days ago)

it's the dark side
my wife says we all have it.


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Invisibleburntkitty
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: Rahz]
    #28226519 - 03/12/23 02:27 PM (10 months, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I don't think it's reasonable to say that action has no significance as the cost is passed on to those who pay.

It's a petty crime so perhaps one should feel a little guilty? That would make more sense than suggesting guilt should be absent.

Unless of course guilt is seen in itself as a fault, though you don't seem to be making that argument.




I'm not sure. I think one might say they feel guilty in such a situation when it's really shame bothering them. I keep hearing voices saying shit that sounds like propaganda more than anything(as to guilt trip me). It's almost completely based on a lie though, so it seems not like my subconscious and completely like targeted warfare cause im awesome.

Most people still believe in victimless crime cause the norm is religious fanatics

Also I have no proof that those actions passed on any cost to those who paid.


--------------------
Hating America doesn't make one racist, it probably means they're the complete opposite. That's not it's name pilgrim

Shia wang a genius he just kept showing his soft til the paparazzi stopped following

Thought capitalism was suppose to stop these soviet union lines

If you give me herpes, Ill give you AIDs

What kind of sickness do they have for wanting the creative not creative. I can only imagine it's satanism


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: burntkitty] * 1
    #28226545 - 03/12/23 02:46 PM (10 months, 11 days ago)

people that make a fuss in a line up cause a lot more trouble than people who find chocolate bars and are very discrete about it about not paying for them.

and quite a few people think it's ok to carry an automatic weapon into a church or wallmart. there are some very dark crimes and some mere glimmers of discrete darkness that are hardly crimes at all.


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OfflineB Traven
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: burntkitty] * 3
    #28226550 - 03/12/23 02:49 PM (10 months, 11 days ago)

I think it's stupid how petty theft is so heavily moralized in our society. Stealing from an individual person is one thing. Running some sort of major scam, another. Stealing minor items from a major corporation? Even they don't really care. By the time you factor in damage, employee theft, returns, expired product, and half a dozen other things, it probably doesn't even influence their shrink calculations.

How many people who'd never shoplift do all sorts of stupid and illegal things while driving? Fucking around in traffic could kill someone, and causes all sorts of angst and frustration on a daily basis. But it's not as heavily moralized against as stealing. Admit you got a reckless driving charge for excessive speed, and most people will just shrug. Mention ANY form of theft, and someone is sure to chime in and tell you off.

I really think it's just an extension of our worship of Private Property™.

And the simple reality is that lower-class people who steal will be stealing on the street or in the store, and probably be a little more open about it, while upper-class people who steal will do it in a quiet and quasi-legal way. Or just not do it all, because Grandpa and Great-Grandpa did more than enough stealing for the whole clan.

Minor conversational things are what I usually bug out over. Worrying that I offended someone or put my foot in my mouth in some way. Half the time, the people in question probably don't even remember the conversation, or the reaction I thought I got had nothing to do with me.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: B Traven]
    #28226564 - 03/12/23 03:07 PM (10 months, 11 days ago)

sounds right


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: burntkitty]
    #28226578 - 03/12/23 03:18 PM (10 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

burntkitty said:
Also I have no proof that those actions passed on any cost to those who paid.




You can do some research to see what evidence there might be and how it all adds up.

Certainly a single candy bar has little value but one will need to ignore basic logic to conclude it has no value which would be necessary for there to be no cost passed on.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: Rahz]
    #28226593 - 03/12/23 03:31 PM (10 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
This is the opposite of a disorder.




This landed home. Very wise perspective with utility in discernment IMO


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: Rahz]
    #28226614 - 03/12/23 03:45 PM (10 months, 11 days ago)

what makes a disorder so disorderly?


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OfflineB Traven
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: Rahz] * 2
    #28226622 - 03/12/23 04:02 PM (10 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

burntkitty said:
Also I have no proof that those actions passed on any cost to those who paid.




You can do some research to see what evidence there might be and how it all adds up.

Certainly a single candy bar has little value but one will need to ignore basic logic to conclude it has no value which would be necessary for there to be no cost passed on.




Except that the whole "passing on the cost" concept is moot when talking about large-scale enterprises in the current economic system.

Even in smaller businesses, the relationship between fixed and variable costs probably makes overall sales volume vs property values more important than shrink when setting prices. Not to mention how much they might pay for financing on loans and mortgages.

And yes, there are extreme cases, like local convenience stores that get ripped off on the reg. But they don't tend to raise prices, either. They just put in security measures and do things like only allowing a certain number of dumb-ass teenagers in at a time.

Amazon and Target don't even bother restocking returns. They offload them in pallet sales. Other companies stock their outlets with returns. Probably still costs them more to do the receiving,  warehousing, and auctioning-off than they make on the resales. The only point of making you return items to get a refund is that the whole system wouldn't work otherwise. And, of course, making you come back and deal with them, and maybe see some other shiny object that catches your eye.

Some chains are literally now just owned by hedge funds, all they care about is staying vaguely in the black until they can flip the real estate holdings of said chains and make a killing.

Even paying someone to figure out how much that stolen candybar was actually worth to the company probably isn't worth it for them. There's really no way for that direct signal to get through and influence prices. Security and checkout procedures, maybe. But most of that is probably plug-and-play stuff coming from a centralized source, based on macro-scale analyses. And the objective is just to instill enough fear/shame/sense of being observed that most people won't try anything.

So what are we left with, then? How much economic damage was done to the aggrieved entity. CVS ain't feeling that at all when someone pockets a snickers bar. Their primary reason to stock them in first place is just to get people in the door.


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Beware of advice- even this.


Edited by B Traven (03/12/23 04:04 PM)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: B Traven]
    #28226665 - 03/12/23 05:04 PM (10 months, 11 days ago)

Interesting points but that doesn't mean theft is moot. Perhaps in some golden age, not that there was one all things considered, but there was a time when they took the loss because it was small because people more generally frowned on it. It's non-sensical to suggest there is zero consequence to others.

There are various issues when considering cause and effect of a social issue and certainly candy swipers are among the least harmful. That it's a slightly messed up thing in a seriously fucked up world makes no difference on a philosophical level as to the consideration of it being messed up. Calling the cost zero or essentially zero is wrong in several ways.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineB Traven
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #28226698 - 03/12/23 05:46 PM (10 months, 11 days ago)

I was going to address the psychological/philosophical side as well, but opted not to.

I was simply discussing the direct economic costs there, and addressing the issue of price signals.

You're kind of moving the goalposts a bit there. And I feel like it's because this is a serious moral issue to you, even within a proper sense of scale.

Look, I don't steal and I'm not trying to justify stealing. It's just not something I really care that much about, aside from people being robbed of their personal property.

Or, put another way, I care a lot about it, but the way I see ownership on this planet basically means I see the entire system as built on and sustained by plunder.


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Edited by B Traven (03/12/23 05:51 PM)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: B Traven]
    #28226740 - 03/12/23 06:31 PM (10 months, 11 days ago)

The topic seems to be about about stealing candy bars not corporate plunder though I do get your point and don't disagree. Systemic plunder by the rich is awful, but the "moral issue" is not inherently different. One can draw a contrast between rich and poor, but those of them who do plunder on some scale are the same. A thief can hardly blame the rich for being successful right?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #28226820 - 03/12/23 07:48 PM (10 months, 11 days ago)

it's more a matter of mischief, I mean - chocolate bars.
and those chocolate bars themselves, well they kinda suck.
A case of candy is sort of like a casino when you are young.
dazzling
mischief all round.


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OfflineB Traven
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: Rahz]
    #28226855 - 03/12/23 08:20 PM (10 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said: A thief can hardly blame the rich for being successful right?




Oh yeah, the plunder goes every which way, until you can't tell which way is up. Lots of people would behave exactly the same way if they were rich.


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: burntkitty]
    #28226898 - 03/12/23 08:52 PM (10 months, 11 days ago)

All the time.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: burntkitty]
    #28227048 - 03/12/23 10:56 PM (10 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

burntkitty said:
I've stolen plenty of candy bars in my time. I never feel bad about it. I never even feel bad that I'm in that position. I've gone through horrible trauma too many times to count though. I couldn't imagine anyone feeling bad about it, but it does seem someone who has had it tough would be less prone to feeling guilty for petty crime.

Have you ever found yourself feeling bad about something insignificant like that? Would it be some kind of mental disorder to feel guilty about something like that?




My ex used to steal beenie babies from stores, then she owed money and got her car Swiss cheesed like a golfball. Another guy stole from bikies and got beat.

I took some coins from my parents cabinet as a kid to go eat deep fried sushi but otherwise I haven't stolen, I might've felt a little guilty but not much at the time.

There's a lot I don't feel guilty for, and although guilty seems like a strong word, the things I've felt 'guilty' about have seemingly been related to a perceived loss of self agrandisement, or a lack of grasping opportunities.

I treat others with dignity and respect as far as I can and I don't feel guilty for honest interactions, but one example was when I went to a forest and took photos of a wild lyre bird, and when I got back to the Carpark an older couple with one unable to walk properly asked how the walk was and I told them about the bird. They seemed interested and although i kind of wanted to, I didn't show them any photos of the bird.

This weighed on my mind for weeks, like nothing else had in years.

Something that might seem so damn insignificant to others, maybe it's because I wanted to share a passion with someone I thought would appreciate it and I didn't take the opportunity.

Another example that weighed on my mind but might not exactly have been guilt was declining chocolate from a boss and telling him I was lactose intolerant while eating a pizza with cheese on it! He was nice about it but I felt I shouldn't have said it and could have just graciously accepted.

Cheese has a lot less lactose than milk solids, and a little I can sometimes handle but the chocolate would have been overboard and explaining that would probably be pretty weird.

But yeah that's my 2c.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (03/13/23 01:11 AM)


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: sudly]
    #28227262 - 03/13/23 02:39 AM (10 months, 11 days ago)

Guilt is a material like anything else. Learn to understand that you are at that level of thuergy where your guilt is just a material substrate that can be reworked into anything that will transfer from it. Or this substance can be turned into nothing..

This knot in the side of the left belly.. is made here for magikcal purposes.

Litches..  70% magic. Magic universes.. Dimension within a given universe.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #28227333 - 03/13/23 05:46 AM (10 months, 11 days ago)

holy - deep fried sushi, never knew - I probably want it & it'sprobably not good for cholesterol.


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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: burntkitty]
    #28227427 - 03/13/23 08:11 AM (10 months, 11 days ago)

Neurotic guilt is aggression turned against oneself.  It is out of proportion to the event that occurred.

Chronic guilt is one of the many ways we degrade ourselves and beat ourselves up for not being perfect.  We adopt a vison of our perfect self, and when we don't live up to those expectations, we react with aggression & hostility towards ourselves.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28227436 - 03/13/23 08:17 AM (10 months, 11 days ago)

someone else has a more obedient and skillful ox
so maybe we are frustrated that our ox is a lazy slob


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28227557 - 03/13/23 09:54 AM (10 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
deep fried sushi




Isn't that a false syllogism non-sequitur?


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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28227589 - 03/13/23 10:14 AM (10 months, 11 days ago)

The sushi restaurant across the street serves a deep-fried roll they call a "heart attack roll".  I've had it a couple of times.  I try not to feel guilty about it.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28227633 - 03/13/23 10:44 AM (10 months, 11 days ago)

guilt is reinforced by all the iconography in the churches

sushi and guilt inevitably collide no matter what religion.

we are all fried before we even swim. pre-fried. lived and died


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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28227636 - 03/13/23 10:47 AM (10 months, 11 days ago)

So like you have a "permanent scar" like from that song?


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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28227642 - 03/13/23 10:50 AM (10 months, 11 days ago)

The difference between shame and guilt is interesting.

Sometimes I feel shame about my guilt  :facepalm3:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/shame/201305/the-difference-between-guilt-and-shame


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28227761 - 03/13/23 12:35 PM (10 months, 11 days ago)

now you're cooking with gas (shame it's not electric/solar)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28227875 - 03/13/23 01:59 PM (10 months, 11 days ago)

I think feeling guilty is a misnomer. Acknowledging guilt is as the article says awareness of a hurtful action. Shame is what one may feel when acknowledging guilt. IWO, guilt is not a feeling. One may feel shame over guilt.

I do agree that shame can be excessive, though I suppose when that's the case things are complicated in some way. Shame as a utility is something which holds potential for resolution, most simply by acknowledging guilt and not repeating actions.

And of course, having a brain, it's part of the process to question guilt and see if things are complicated, whether it was instilled, whether there's harm being done, etc. It may be the case on thought that guilt is either well placed or misplaced. The brain also allows for perceptual variation in guilt which is reasonable but could also be used to either justify harm or inflate shame beyond it's utility.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: Rahz]
    #28228095 - 03/13/23 04:01 PM (10 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I think feeling guilty is a misnomer. Acknowledging guilt is as the article says awareness of a hurtful action. Shame is what one may feel when acknowledging guilt. IWO, guilt is not a feeling. One may feel shame over guilt.

I do agree that shame can be excessive, though I suppose when that's the case things are complicated in some way. Shame as a utility is something which holds potential for resolution, most simply by acknowledging guilt and not repeating actions.

And of course, having a brain, it's part of the process to question guilt and see if things are complicated, whether it was instilled, whether there's harm being done, etc. It may be the case on thought that guilt is either well placed or misplaced. The brain also allows for perceptual variation in guilt which is reasonable but could also be used to either justify harm or inflate shame beyond it's utility.



those may all be extra words for associated mental contents from experiences that may be hurtful, but I can certainly see feeling guilty - immersed in both shame and remorse for what I had done that I knew was wrong.

Separately and differently, I can see feeling shame - embarrassed for being noticed with my pants down in a public toilet with no doors, or wearing the wrong color - or not knowing my lines at a play. I did nothing wrong, but failed to escape being singled out.

shame goes with the public exposure of some failure to conform or comply,
guilt is a failing, but a specific kind of thing to be shamed about while others are not guilty in the same way - it is a more isolating thing.

all the same it is about how we marshal our conduct in social contexts, and how we feel about that. it's a yucky way to spend time.


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OfflineLfl93
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28258325 - 04/01/23 09:37 PM (9 months, 22 days ago)

For sure. Story of my life.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: Lfl93]
    #28258534 - 04/02/23 12:34 AM (9 months, 22 days ago)

I have a lot less guilt nowadays, less the more experience I gain, and confidence I show.

What's there to be guilty about when we have enthusiastic consent, good communication and strong boundaries we're all aware of.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: sudly]
    #28258637 - 04/02/23 05:19 AM (9 months, 22 days ago)

That does bring up a good point.
One never seems to negotiate shame, it is inseparable from the experience.
eventually we own it and move on.

However, with guilt there is negotiation, one is driven to edit it from one's history, or find new ways to present the facts. One retains it, "karmic-ly". One pays for one's sins in reviews.

eventually we own it and move on.


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OfflineAbombs
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28262503 - 04/04/23 05:54 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Chaotic neutral.
So I don't really care if I break the law to serve my needs. I more follow my own rules.
Though it's the moral decisions that tear me.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: Abombs]
    #28262636 - 04/04/23 07:04 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

that tearing feeling is you owning it.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: Abombs]
    #28263706 - 04/05/23 01:55 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Abombs said:
Chaotic neutral.
So I don't really care if I break the law to serve my needs. I more follow my own rules.
Though it's the moral decisions that tear me.




I wouldn't equate following one's own rules (which may be in conflict with law) as neutral or chaotic.


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rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Do you ever feel guilty for insignificant things [Re: Rahz]
    #28266256 - 04/07/23 01:07 AM (9 months, 17 days ago)

I don't feel guilty about insignificant things in general, but I don't always feel good about myself either.

Sometimes.. I want more from myself. I walk up a few steps in life, even in the day to day, and it's easy to see the next ones but the longer I look at them, I think the less good about myself I tend to feel sometimes.

Sometimes I do feel good about myself though too. Through the journey and at the end. But when the next plan starts, the hope begins hapless before the big day that it takes a step and grows.

The hardest part I think, is when you are kindling the flames of hope, in hopes they may burn brighter.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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