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OfflineKickleM
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Subconscious
    #28222160 - 03/09/23 12:11 PM (10 months, 15 days ago)

Do you think that what appears in consciousness can be seen to rely on that which you are not directly conscious of?

If I look at a tree, is it fair to conclude that it depended on other things to be as it appears? Even if I can't directly perceive all the things it depended on just by looking at the tree?

Can I conclude that sunlight is needed for a tree to grow? And water? And soil? And a seed? Space to expand in? And all the many myriads of internal processes reforming, recombining, and guiding nutrients to where they need to be?

Can I conclude that such dependencies and more have happened countless times over for the tree to be as it appears to me now?

Or is this just imagined? There are no such dependencies? What is visibly seen is the entirety of a tree?


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Subconscious [Re: Kickle]
    #28222207 - 03/09/23 12:56 PM (10 months, 15 days ago)

Appearance can be deceiving. Is this a similie you have provided for edification?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Subconscious [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28222214 - 03/09/23 01:02 PM (10 months, 15 days ago)

I think this post appears from my education. But I think questioning education is important for the reason you stated. So I'm open to re-education if the appearance of the concept of subconscious is deceiving me.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleconnectedcosmos
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Re: Subconscious [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28222216 - 03/09/23 01:04 PM (10 months, 15 days ago)

Indras net :awesomenod: sunyata :awemazing: dependent origination :yinyang: all things that the tree reminds me of


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54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Subconscious [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #28222231 - 03/09/23 01:17 PM (10 months, 14 days ago)

What does that suggest about what appears in consciousness?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Subconscious [Re: Kickle]
    #28222265 - 03/09/23 01:46 PM (10 months, 14 days ago)

The whole thing about the tree is not about conclusions about subconscious, it's about the tree, and what you may or may not know or care about in your point of view.

The word subconscious is used to loosely describe things in mind that are not clear or articulate or consistent with apparent intentions.

This unfortunate grab bag of stuff we all live with is called "subconscious" as a primitive social practice, since we are still a primitive society with primitive science and psychology and laws.

Notwithstanding that apparent intention aligns with will (vis a vis motive in crimes etc.), and since will is a fallacious construct  that means that our criminal laws are junk as are many of its procedures.

It has often been argued that a person's subconscious had the intent and not the person him/herself - so their guilt must be mitigated by that doubly fallacious approach. Nevertheless the subconscious and the psychiatric industry and the legal underpinnings of society are dependent upon the incorrect assumption that we humans have a subconscious mind that - when we are mentally ill - can make us do things that are bad, wrong, disrespectful etc. But in truth there is no separate ego and subconscious, nor any persistent self.

Ideas, emotions, feelings, and notions that do not fit into words are also assumed to be the domain of subconscious, and our mental health industry takes advantage of that flaw in its thinking and methods as well.

A supernatural connection with Nature may also be subsumed and justified into the notion of subconscious embodying ESP, Prophesy, telekinesis, etc.

In short, for those god fearing people who need it, the subconscious makes sense especially in the way it picks up the slack of sloppy thinking (kinda like the idea of god as well if you like).

I assure you we do not need this psychological/legal/social construct and it does not help in actually understanding associative mind, psychology, human rights and freedoms and it does not belong in the annals of jurisdiction and the laws of man.

Wherever I can I undermine theories that use subconscious and I replace it with associative memory and the perceptive reflex reworking the code as need be. Being in tune with one's self, others, and nature, however really is a thing, and experiences that are somewhat supernatural seeming are naturally an extension of being in tune with nature, as a result of basic awareness.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Subconscious [Re: Kickle]
    #28222349 - 03/09/23 02:28 PM (10 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
... I'm open to re-education if the appearance of the concept of subconscious is deceiving me.




How can we be sure RGV is not right?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Subconscious [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28222358 - 03/09/23 02:33 PM (10 months, 14 days ago)

The whole thing about the tree is not about conclusions about subconscious, it's about the tree, and what you may or may not know or care about in your point of view.

The two are related in my education which also results in my understanding. How can you assert this post doesn't exist in the way it does? Very strange.

Subconscious in the original post is a reference to that which comes prior to consciousness (sub in terms of time), just as all those events described come prior to the tree as it appears. Subconscious also references those elements which can be seen 'under' the appearance of consciousness. Just as those elements of a tree can be understood to exist within the appearance of the tree.

If you would please address this usage of subconscious that would be much more relevant to me. I cannot follow your post when you remove the presented concept of subconscious and replace it with your own.

I agree your conception of subconscious does not make sense and I wonder why you still use it.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Subconscious [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28222365 - 03/09/23 02:39 PM (10 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
... I'm open to re-education if the appearance of the concept of subconscious is deceiving me.




How can we be sure RGV is not right?




I think RGV himself said his view of subconscious isn't right. But he didn't touch anything but his pre-existing conception. I feel a disconnect :frown:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Subconscious [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28222385 - 03/09/23 02:48 PM (10 months, 14 days ago)

Affiliations and training leave subconscious impressions that affect behavior; these influences can function at the periphery of awareness and independent of conscious awareness...such as the sense of balance.


Edited by Buster_Brown (03/09/23 03:16 PM)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Subconscious [Re: Kickle]
    #28222489 - 03/09/23 03:23 PM (10 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Do you think that what appears in consciousness can be seen to rely on that which you are not directly conscious of?

If I look at a tree, is it fair to conclude that it depended on other things to be as it appears? Even if I can't directly perceive all the things it depended on just by looking at the tree?

Can I conclude that sunlight is needed for a tree to grow? And water? And soil? And a seed? Space to expand in? And all the many myriads of internal processes reforming, recombining, and guiding nutrients to where they need to be?

Can I conclude that such dependencies and more have happened countless times over for the tree to be as it appears to me now?

Or is this just imagined? There are no such dependencies? What is visibly seen is the entirety of a tree?




1- Perception? I suppose perceptions are formed from a set of information that one is not entirely conscious of.

2- Yes. Yes.

3- All yes.

4- Yes.

5- No, we suppose that real/objective things are providing appearances.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Subconscious [Re: Rahz]
    #28222538 - 03/09/23 03:59 PM (10 months, 14 days ago)

How about this scenario Rahz.

Quote:

People with Wernicke's aphasia may speak in long, complete sentences that have no meaning, adding unnecessary words and even creating made-up words.

For example, someone with Wernicke's aphasia may say, "You know that smoodle pinkered and that I want to get him round and take care of him like you want before."

People with Wernicke's aphasia are often unaware of their spoken mistakes.




When you are speaking, are you conscious of the process which allows communication between known words (mental) and speech production (vocal)? I think it's safe to say people do not typically have a direct conscious experience of this process taking place. Yet when it's not working, we quickly come to understand that this sub-process of the conscious experience of speaking was indeed taking place all the time. We learn about its function not through direct conscious experience, but rather, once it stops functioning, those around us immediately recognize its absence.

Most of psychology approaches subconscious processes through dysfunction IME and there are tons of them which have been found.

The contents of consciousness all seem to depend on many things. Most of which do not exist in conscious experience directly but may be understood to exist through conceptual analysis. Like that of the tree.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Subconscious [Re: Kickle]
    #28222549 - 03/09/23 04:08 PM (10 months, 14 days ago)

you mean preconscious
there is a lot of philosphical hooey about preconscious mind
basically you can cut a cartoon door anyway and bugs bunny can open it.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Subconscious [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28222562 - 03/09/23 04:15 PM (10 months, 14 days ago)

Preconscious could comprise a portion of the definition of subconscious if that helps to see the definition presented more clearly.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Subconscious [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28222587 - 03/09/23 04:32 PM (10 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
such as the sense of balance.




Great example! Proprioception can be experienced directly in consciousness but it's really not the default state. When walking or standing we just let it subconsciously do it's thing. Again the less functionally this is performed, the more conscious it becomes.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Subconscious [Re: Kickle]
    #28222651 - 03/09/23 05:18 PM (10 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Preconscious could comprise a portion of the definition of subconscious if that helps to see the definition presented more clearly.



sure but pre-conscious is also a fantasy term, one that many so called scientists are waving about to shore up bogus Quantum consciousness theories.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Subconscious [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28222680 - 03/09/23 05:32 PM (10 months, 14 days ago)

I think a subconscious would be a more chaotic environment yet able to refine and elevate perceptions and ideas into consciousness so your observations are reasonable to me.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Subconscious [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28222684 - 03/09/23 05:38 PM (10 months, 14 days ago)

Not in that mix, but I'm not a big fan of the term preconscious if you want to broaden philosophically.

It sounds like something exists before consciousness but then not at consciousness. Like when an event predates another event. It's a way of looking that's for sure. But it has unfortunate sentiments of disconnectedness imo.

I think an analogy for a tree in the preconscious view is to say that a seed always comes first. My question is simply, but where did that seed come from? That chain just keeps going backwards in time if you don't start/stop somewhere arbitrarily. And the "start" isn't really a start. When did the sun start shining? Is pinning that start down important before we see the connection between the sun and a tree?

Subconscious would consider that consciousness is comprised of lots that we aren't directly conscious of. Sometimes that is understood in relation to time but time is not always the key to arrive at understanding (even if understanding occurs in time). So one can, where it makes sense, disregard "start" and "stop" conceptually because that view isn't always integral to finding connections.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Subconscious [Re: Rahz]
    #28222728 - 03/09/23 06:09 PM (10 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I think a subconscious would be a more chaotic environment yet able to refine and elevate perceptions and ideas into consciousness so your observations are reasonable to me.



then you are hypothesizing a second being within the self.
explain then how that second being that refines and elevates works.

I consider consciousness as a single process which simultaneously makes associative memory engrams at 10 per second from aggregate mental contents (sensation + perception), and at the same time in the same mechanism this process exhibits unfettered perceptive reflexes at the same rate, all sustained by the thalamo-cortical alpha rhythm sensory and perceptive feeds.

Consciousness needs no other dimension, and no separate supervisor (homunculus) - this is it (a body with senses and a brain and very few basic instincts beyon play, soothe, and navigate to mate, hunt, and find our way home). this is what we are, self contained association makers and associative reflex entities playing, soothing, and navigating.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Subconscious [Re: Rahz]
    #28222740 - 03/09/23 06:20 PM (10 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I think a subconscious would be a more chaotic environment yet able to refine and elevate perceptions and ideas into consciousness so your observations are reasonable to me.




Deep take imo

I would maybe question chaotic as a view over unpredictable (due to unknowing).


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