Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   North Spore Injection Grain Bag   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineGorguss
Chaotic sums


Registered: 02/03/10
Posts: 634
Last seen: 21 minutes, 18 seconds
Re: About THAT Big Bang [Re: Lucis]
    #28224845 - 03/11/23 08:53 AM (10 months, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Lucis said:
If you're not up to date with current science, there has been recent information which is making people think the big bang might be wrong based upon what James Webb telescope has shown us.  I think the doubt relating to the big bang theories accuracy is only related to what JWT has shown us, but there might be more info out there which goes against big bang theory, I could be wrong though so don't quote me on that!

The more we learn about the universe the more we're going to have to correct some of our theories.  Doubt is normal, don't overthink it!  There's not some one ultimate answer for everything!




I think part of what is wrong is that we didn't correctly identify early astral bodies. For example, they are thinking Dark Energy may be due to blackholes in the early universe, perhaps formed by quasars, that are just wildly bigger than we thought.

As you throw in your disclaimer and uncertainty, I will too, I've only skimmed headlines and articles, lots of fluff out there, but I've not done a deep dive and learned everything I could about their 'new' discovery.

One thing is certain though, it's that science doesn't revamp its entire knowledge base when something new is discovered or a variable was wrong, it corrects itself closer to what really is happening or has happened, and in doing this, the equations and theories we currently have, grow stronger (more accurate) because we put together another piece of the puzzle.


--------------------
------------

------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,848
Last seen: 1 day, 14 hours
Re: About THAT Big Bang [Re: Gorguss]
    #28224872 - 03/11/23 09:14 AM (10 months, 12 days ago)

One thing is certain though, it's that science doesn't revamp its entire knowledge base when something new is discovered or a variable was wrong,

Can you give an example of what you mean by this?

My mind first went to gravity, but the only part of the theory of gravity which hasn't changed over time is.. well, I dunno. The name has changed. The math has changed. The perceived source has changed. The mechanics have changed. The fundamentality of it has changed. The interconnectedness of it has changed. I'm not sure what part of it has stayed the same in science. So maybe you can help me understand? Is it the pursuit of defining an experience that has remained while all the defining characteristics have changed? I think I'd agree that knowing the experience of gravity doesn't depend on definitions of gravity, and so the experience is never thrown out, only all the prior definitions (knowledge) about the experience. I'd also agree that we get better at describing our experiences the more time we spend studying them but never really capture them in a description.

If every description of gravity disappeared, does gravity disappear with it? Of course not, because the description is not the experience. That is why science doesn't build solely on its own descriptions and is not afraid to throw a description out when it longer relates to the experience.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGorguss
Chaotic sums


Registered: 02/03/10
Posts: 634
Last seen: 21 minutes, 18 seconds
Re: About THAT Big Bang [Re: Kickle]
    #28224890 - 03/11/23 09:33 AM (10 months, 12 days ago)

A good example is Newtonian physics. They are perfectly fine to calculate gravity on earth. Its only when moving into space do they fall short of describing what's going on. So Einsteinian physics step in, they don't remove the old equations, just add stuff. General relativity and special relativity.

When they discover a new species in a branch of species evolved, they find the slot that particular species fits into the tree, science is adding to itself as more science is done, and its constantly trying to prove itself wrong through testing. You don't input your expected outcomes and try and make it happen backwards. You predict what you think might happen based on the understanding of your own test and the way you think things should behave. Then you do the test and compare the results with your guess. If your understanding of your test is 100% you can predict everything that going to happen, when where why and what.

You see these tedtalks or science presentations where the guys running around doing all this crazy stuff with liquid nitrogen changing air volume in balloons, carbon dioxide change liquids colors, fire changing colors etc.


--------------------
------------

------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,848
Last seen: 1 day, 14 hours
Re: About THAT Big Bang [Re: Gorguss]
    #28224951 - 03/11/23 10:36 AM (10 months, 12 days ago)

Yes, not just science uses labels to navigate experience. Language in general does this. Math as well, which was not labeled scientific when first existing. Remove language and math, what science are you left with?

Science is a huge umbrella. Kind of the modern big tent church for descriptions of experience. But IMO you're really missing the way all descriptors change. Even mathematical ones.

How often do you calculate the gravity of your experience? Such use is bound to certain experiences. If those experiences cease, so too does the need for such a type calculation. And this is the state for most of us, an uncalculated experience of gravity. No description even necessary. But people like to use a static description of gravity to pretend the description is the experience! Silly.

Can you recite the formula for Newtonian gravity without looking it up? How about velocity? thermal properties? This type of gravity is already present on Earth, right? You should be able to look at your hand and see this formula. It's truly there, right?

And for those who calculate the density of a material, they don't have to consider the material in the calculation right? The calculation never changes. If a change in material is used, don't throw out that old calculation! Keep using that answer, the math never changes.

Experience is the root of science, not the other way around. If your experience is unchanging, then science is unchanging. Unchanging is not a good description of experience IMO


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGorguss
Chaotic sums


Registered: 02/03/10
Posts: 634
Last seen: 21 minutes, 18 seconds
Re: About THAT Big Bang [Re: Kickle]
    #28225266 - 03/11/23 03:11 PM (10 months, 12 days ago)

I do know some stuff off the back of my hand. And its from memory not something I use everyday. 9.8m/s2 is the rate at which gravity on earth is exerting on all objects, resting or not. a2 + b2 = c2 is Pythagorean theorem. Used in squaring up a room, like for laying tile or something. The math we learned and the equations for doing things geometrically or algebraically or whatever, are the real world spells if you will, that allow us to alter or build stuff to the laws of reality. Bridges don't collapse because they are engineered with margins of error and best variables for its use and degradation so on. Skyscrapers are another feat of engineering.

"Engineering is a highly quantitative field, so math is involved in some capacity in all disciplines of engineering. Engineers often need mathematical calculations to evaluate the strength and suitability of materials for executing their designs." - degreequery*

I know that a lot of real-world causes/effects taking place aren't linear, but logarithmic or exponential.

Also, experience like your saying, science isn't a good description of it, but that is what makes experience subjective. You could still measure things 3rd person of the person experiencing. So, for example, a mushroom trip, science may not be very good at describing what they are experiencing. But for the person or people observing the personal on the trip, they could try to take measurements, to answer what is quite a long list, but you could start with basic stuff like heart rate, blood pressure. You could do blood work before and after, perhaps during. Its why we know the mushrooms, and psychedelics in general, are some of the least harmful drugs that exist, from what I understand they have virtually none of the physical toxicity.

I'm so lost on what I'm talking about though. Are we agreeing on basic shit? I feel like I need to delete the shit above what am I arguing


--------------------
------------

------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,848
Last seen: 1 day, 14 hours
Re: About THAT Big Bang [Re: Gorguss]
    #28225280 - 03/11/23 03:17 PM (10 months, 12 days ago)

One thing is certain though, it's that science doesn't revamp its entire knowledge base when something new is discovered or a variable was wrong,

Science doesn't do anything. People experiencing the world do. That's my main point to simplify. And because our experiences change drastically, science does too. Up to and of course including throwing out entire knowledge bases. This is demonstrated time and again over history as circumstances change and what people are doing changes. If a knowledge base is no longer useful to the people experiencing the world, it is discarded.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGorguss
Chaotic sums


Registered: 02/03/10
Posts: 634
Last seen: 21 minutes, 18 seconds
Re: About THAT Big Bang [Re: Kickle]
    #28225332 - 03/11/23 03:53 PM (10 months, 12 days ago)

Seems like science is part of humanity advancing, and more efficiently dominating its environment, for better or worse.

It is a tool, like a hammer, you use it to build a better shelter than rudimentary tools. Science and mathematics I guess i realize im dumping into one pot, but both are on equal footing.


--------------------
------------

------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,848
Last seen: 1 day, 14 hours
Re: About THAT Big Bang [Re: Gorguss]
    #28225349 - 03/11/23 04:01 PM (10 months, 12 days ago)

Yeah, dominance is what people seem to be on about lately and gets construed as "advancement". Maybe for a long time. At some point I hope, enough is enough. That the world, me, you, are good enough. The experience of life is good enough. We do not need to dominate life to experience it. And maybe then we can see life for what it really is, because that is enough.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGorguss
Chaotic sums


Registered: 02/03/10
Posts: 634
Last seen: 21 minutes, 18 seconds
Re: About THAT Big Bang [Re: Kickle]
    #28225381 - 03/11/23 04:26 PM (10 months, 12 days ago)

Some part of humanities always curious to peak over the edge, for better or worse. I get what you're saying though.

I'm very worried about the side effects of our way of life, and what it's destroying, but I can only make decisions about my lifestyle to help combat it. I can vote for those that have the same idea too.

There are lots of discoveries that have been made that make life a lot better than if we hadn't had science. Vaccines for example. People use to die of all sorts of shit like typhoid fever or polio.

With great power comes great responsibility. Thats what we need to be telling ourselves, not that we're too small to affect our atmosphere.


--------------------
------------

------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinesolarshroomster
Wonderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 506
Last seen: 3 days, 22 hours
Re: About THAT Big Bang [Re: Gorguss]
    #28225402 - 03/11/23 04:52 PM (10 months, 12 days ago)

I think there's a point to glorifying science & technology, but we also need to admit to its deficits. It may have been great for some humans (and I think the rates of depression suggest material progress has not benefited us), but life writ large has not benefited from its success, in my view. In particular, it has accelerated our conceptual disconnect from nature. The Anthropocene extinction, fully the result of science & technology IMO, is killing out life at a rate that is 100 to 1,000 times the natural background extinction rate. As you say, with "great power comes great responsibility". Here's hoping we can use the fruits of science & technology positively.

Quote:

In the twentieth century, human numbers quadrupled, and the size of the global economy increased twenty-five-fold This Great Acceleration or Anthropocene epoch has also accelerated species extinction. Ecologically, humanity is now an unprecedented "global superpredator", which consistently preys on the adults of other apex predators, takes over other species' essential habitats and displaces them, and has worldwide effects on food webs. There have been extinctions of species on every land mass and in every ocean: there are many famous examples within Africa, Asia, Europe, Australia, North and South America, and on smaller islands. Wikipedia




--------------------
Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBuster_Brown
L'une
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,309
Last seen: 1 day, 21 hours
Re: About THAT Big Bang [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28225422 - 03/11/23 05:06 PM (10 months, 12 days ago)

In space there are no mosquitoes, flies or ticks. I think some people would consider that progress


Edited by Buster_Brown (03/11/23 05:07 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGorguss
Chaotic sums


Registered: 02/03/10
Posts: 634
Last seen: 21 minutes, 18 seconds
Re: About THAT Big Bang [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28225472 - 03/11/23 05:55 PM (10 months, 12 days ago)

From the perspective of human life, we are the most successful species, if your metric is the proliferation of that organism.

If your metric is how much destruction of the natural environment is taking place because of the way it lives, we are the worse for everything else.

How do we ride the wave of the present and make the best of what trajectory we're on? How much can we course correct? It will take scientific approaches to reverse or arrest the rate of destruction etc.

We're locked in that changing present moment, and humans as a whole sort of suck at making good choices for the future.

I think Artificial enhancement is necessary.


--------------------
------------

------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBuster_Brown
L'une
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,309
Last seen: 1 day, 21 hours
Re: About THAT Big Bang [Re: Gorguss]
    #28225493 - 03/11/23 06:10 PM (10 months, 12 days ago)

More species electing the human experience can account for species extinction. Gradually every fly and tick will gravitate to the human experience. The supportive structure can include transhumanism imo


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleconnectedcosmos
Neti Neti
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/07/15
Posts: 7,426
Loc: The Pathless Path
Re: About THAT Big Bang [Re: solarshroomster] * 2
    #28226624 - 03/12/23 04:06 PM (10 months, 11 days ago)

The thing with science is , by its essential nature it puts a "thing" or object into a box and describes it upon doing such you have to compare and label and divide the box further with other boxes in comparison to get further descriptions

And even with that when "scientific knowledge" is discovered , what is also discovered is how much we don't "know"

I have a deep love and passion for science
And think it is an amazing thing

I think other forms of knowledge are more important though , for living a content and happy life :sun:


--------------------


54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,848
Last seen: 1 day, 14 hours
Re: About THAT Big Bang [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #28227384 - 03/13/23 07:31 AM (10 months, 11 days ago)

:awemazing:

:smile:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblebudmanman
OTD Masterbater
Male


Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 17,974
Loc: PNW
Re: About THAT Big Bang [Re: Svetaketu]
    #28234527 - 03/18/23 01:08 AM (10 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Svetaketu said:
I would agree that ineffable experiences and qualia may be purely physical phenomenon, but I can't know for sure.

You seem to be saying that these spiritual phenomena are based in the physical world. Wouldn't that just be materialism? I don't think materialists claim to know everything there is already, there is certainly much uncharted territory.

I agree these ineffable experiences impart ideas that have measurable effects, but does that make the "knowledge" they impart absolutely true? I am very wary of intuition.


Quote:

I think it's more than "dumb coincidence", but I'm open to the idea that I could be totally mistaken. It's just that... at the point at which I would be so mistaken, I now have even more questions: how could one be so mistaken? It seems that the delusional thinking is even more amazing than the delusion itself in this instance.




I agree, I don't know is the honest answer. The synchronicities I have personally experienced seem unimpressive and I feel I have explanations for them (as you mentioned, confirmation bias or counting the hits and ignoring the misses), but I haven't experienced your synchronicities and they may have been much more impressive.

I will however say that IME delusional thinking is truly fascinating and has no limits. A month or so ago I had a long conversation with someone who believes the world is flat. He was young, intelligent, and genuinely believed he was correct. I was shocked at his ability to disregard what I considered good evidence of a spherical world.

Quote:

Where I disagree with you is that you seem to endorse the idea that scientists should be "dismissive of ideas that they feel cannot be tested". Totally disagree.




I get what you are saying, it's at the very least impolite to be so dismissive. However I think its hard to take an idea seriously if it has no scientific basis or testability. After all, there are potentially infinite ideas and explanation for the phenomena we experience, and we have a finite amount of time to investigate them. It seems like we won't get anywhere if we give all unfalsifiable claims our full attention.







--------------------
Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal.

And I am mentally unstable.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblessed


Registered: 07/16/11
Posts: 1,085
Loc: ation: Tasmania Flag
Last seen: 12 days, 19 hours
Re: About THAT Big Bang [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #28235527 - 03/18/23 06:37 PM (10 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

connectedcosmos said:
The thing with science is , by its essential nature it puts a "thing" or object into a box and describes it upon doing such you have to compare and label and divide the box further with other boxes in comparison to get further descriptions

And even with that when "scientific knowledge" is discovered , what is also discovered is how much we don't "know"

I have a deep love and passion for science
And think it is an amazing thing

I think other forms of knowledge are more important though , for living a content and happy life :sun:



As someone who believes in spiritual crap, I don't think science is wrong, evil, stupid, useless and smelly, but lets be honest,

If ALL of human scientific knowledge (100% proven) was combined in total, it would amount to maybe a grain or two of sand on a beach that represent ALL knowable knowledge.


Edited by blessed (03/18/23 06:45 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleconnectedcosmos
Neti Neti
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/07/15
Posts: 7,426
Loc: The Pathless Path
Re: About THAT Big Bang [Re: blessed]
    #28235603 - 03/18/23 07:23 PM (10 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

blessed said:
Quote:

connectedcosmos said:
The thing with science is , by its essential nature it puts a "thing" or object into a box and describes it upon doing such you have to compare and label and divide the box further with other boxes in comparison to get further descriptions

And even with that when "scientific knowledge" is discovered , what is also discovered is how much we don't "know"

I have a deep love and passion for science
And think it is an amazing thing

I think other forms of knowledge are more important though , for living a content and happy life :sun:



As someone who believes in spiritual crap, I don't think science is wrong, evil, stupid, useless and smelly, but lets be honest,

If ALL of human scientific knowledge (100% proven) was combined in total, it would amount to maybe a grain or two of sand on a beach that represent ALL knowable knowledge.





Agreed :awesomenod:

" By knowing Brahman nothing else needs to be known "


--------------------


54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGorguss
Chaotic sums


Registered: 02/03/10
Posts: 634
Last seen: 21 minutes, 18 seconds
Re: About THAT Big Bang [Re: blessed]
    #28235633 - 03/18/23 07:41 PM (10 months, 5 days ago)

The slow siege of science dominating every facet of our lives will never end until everything is known. Fighting it is futile.

All throughout humans' history after civilization, it's just been chipping its way into everyday life, not because it forces itself onto people, but because it's so much easier or convenient or just better.

When boomers grew up, in some parts of the country, schools still taught that the earth was ~6,000 years old. When I was in high school biology, we learned nerve cells are one of the few types of cells that don't regenerate in any meaningful way. This means spinal injuries, and other things involving nerves, won't ever heal. Now they have just used CRISPR type technology to restore nerves in the eyes of mice with the same most common reason why humans go blind.

It may be unsettling to think about a future where we are much more capable of altering both the physical world and our bodies. As well as changing our minds with the advanced Brain computer interfaces. Here on this forum its widely understood the power and unknown of what psychedelics can do to a persons mind. Not in just, 'getting high,' either, but a profound change in how we see ourselves and the world around us. There's no reason to limit that mystical experience to chemical compounds, electrical signals from our brain can decoded. We might be able to rewrite ourselves, our codes.

I think in the next 10-20 years we will be interfacing with electricity and information purely with our minds. Its far more interesting to me to delve into near future lifestyles and technologies than to talk about how scientific discovery will never know it all or how it just doesn't have all the answers. That's bullshit. Science certainly hasn't deduced all the answers... yet.. but it will. Lots of people won't accept those answers. So a part of how civilization advances is directly tied to the old dying and the young learning. The old typically get clinging about certain things they just can't accept has changed. The world they knew has changed such that it may as well be dead. The young are new sponges soaking up everything without the same level of resistance, if there is any, and with no past conflicting beliefs about what the unknown might be.

What the unknown might be. We are in the process, through scientific thinking, of deductively reasoning the unknown. What's taking so long to advance is that 1.) there is A LOT to figure out and 2.) Many people still arrive at adulthood with an inductive mind and way of reasoning out their experience of reality. They will willy nilly pick and chose answers to unknowns without any evidence. The inductive mind simply believes that they are true, and to challenge that is wrong.

Deductive minds are much different, and far superior in helping us combat our own natural bias. We all get uncomfortable when we first learn of the horrible truths of reality. The trick we haven't mastered is teaching not to bury your head in the sand with your soul and jesus or whatever, and just accept life and death as it is. Don't infer some afterlife just so you can pretend you won't cease to exist one day.

I hope to convey my own perspective to help make it clear why I think the way I think, and why I think mankind would be MUCH better off with science, then without it.


--------------------
------------

------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleconnectedcosmos
Neti Neti
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/07/15
Posts: 7,426
Loc: The Pathless Path
Re: About THAT Big Bang [Re: Gorguss]
    #28235675 - 03/18/23 08:06 PM (10 months, 5 days ago)

I agree mankind is better off with science than without it , science is the study of objects though, what is awareness? Not an object therefore cannot be studied objectively:shrug:

Are you a philsophical materialist perchance?


--------------------


54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   North Spore Injection Grain Bag   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Fresh Perspectives CosmicDebris 763 10 09/02/13 02:49 PM
by WhoManBeing
* Heaven is coming to earth *the sequel*
( 1 2 3 4 ... 51 52 )
zorbman 178,039 1,020 03/15/18 06:53 PM
by BrendanFlock
* Do you believe Astral Projection is real or part of your imagination?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
gulper2323 3,520 65 11/08/12 05:38 AM
by zzripz
* A new understanding of time and space circastes 646 15 03/24/13 10:01 AM
by White Beard
* What religion are you?
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
undecided 23,189 122 12/25/22 07:38 PM
by LogicaL Chaos
* 15-year-old new Buddha continues fasting
( 1 2 3 all )
Catalysis 8,027 54 11/25/10 07:26 PM
by lasttime
* Survey on God?
( 1 2 all )
KungFu_Shaman 6,991 34 10/13/05 03:13 PM
by KungFu_Shaman
* questioning premises or fake spirituality - this is important.
( 1 2 all )
redgreenvines 6,819 30 10/13/05 10:10 AM
by MarkostheGnostic

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Shroomism, Rose, Kickle, yogabunny, DividedQuantum
1,231 topic views. 1 members, 5 guests and 5 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.025 seconds spending 0.005 seconds on 13 queries.