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OfflineKickleM
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Justification
    #28219557 - 03/07/23 06:57 PM (10 months, 16 days ago)

How do you understand the psychology of justification?

Is war ever just? Can it be justified?
Is violence justifiable?
Is stealing justifiable?
Anger? Greed?

Are some things justifiable and others not? How do you distinguish this? How do you see others distinguish this?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Justification [Re: Kickle]
    #28219667 - 03/07/23 08:38 PM (10 months, 16 days ago)

lies


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Justification [Re: Kickle]
    #28219695 - 03/07/23 08:57 PM (10 months, 16 days ago)

War is just murder on a large scale. No matter how necessary or unavoidable, it's still murder.

People can justify anything. Justification is easy. Being a good person is hard. Admitting that you did something wrong and apologizing is a lot harder and requires way more strength than justifying. Why bother to justify anything, except out of weakness or cowardice? But people are weak and selfish, so they justify everything and never admit they're wrong and never take responsibility for anything.

War and violence are always wrong, no matter how necessary. If they're truly necessary, then you should have the courage to not justify it, but to admit straight up that it's wrong and do it anyway. If it's truly necessary and unavoidable, then you shouldn't be afraid to condemn it (and yourself) in the harshest possible terms even as you're doing it.


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OfflineWhoManBeing
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Re: Justification [Re: nooneman]
    #28219730 - 03/07/23 09:13 PM (10 months, 16 days ago)

What’s ‘justification?’


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Justification [Re: WhoManBeing]
    #28220105 - 03/08/23 05:44 AM (10 months, 16 days ago)

A basis for an act/thought/feeling/belief
Or a rationale
Or a reason


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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Justification [Re: nooneman]
    #28220114 - 03/08/23 05:52 AM (10 months, 16 days ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
People can justify anything. Justification is easy. Being a good person is hard. Admitting that you did something wrong and apologizing is a lot harder and requires way more strength than justifying. Why bother to justify anything, except out of weakness or cowardice? But people are weak and selfish, so they justify everything and never admit they're wrong and never take responsibility for anything.





So you would say justifications are the result of weakness and selfishness?

I'm trying to apply this to less clear scenarios. Like miscommunication where person A thinks person B was being a turd. But person B had no intention of being a turd. Does person B just blanket apologize to person A when they are strong?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Justification [Re: Kickle]
    #28220239 - 03/08/23 07:21 AM (10 months, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:

I'm trying to apply this to less clear scenarios. Like miscommunication where person A thinks person B was being a turd. But person B had no intention of being a turd. Does person B just blanket apologize to person A when they are strong?




I try to remember when I see someone as being a turd, it's simply a reflection of myself. 

I'm half joking  :poop:

It's easy for me to forget I have no clue what others are going thru.  I have a problem with anger when I feel ignored.  For example, I have a buddy who doesn't like to answer his phone. I text him once in a while.  Sometimes just a check in and sometimes more serious.  When I send him what I consider to be an important message and he doesn't reply, I'm a bit floored.  WTF?!  Like you can't even send me a one sentence reply?  How about replying with a one keystroke emoji?  No?  Can't do it?

But he can't.  He would of if he could of.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Justification [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28220291 - 03/08/23 07:51 AM (10 months, 16 days ago)

:thumbup:

When I was young I received a lot of affection and attention when I was sick. This actually for a time became problematic. And it still can cycle through my thoughts/feelings and if I don't catch it there, even in behavior.

I think you can see this in kids who fake being sick to stay home from school. It's a way out of undesirable circumstances. This was true in my case, and added in was not only avoidance of undesirable conditions but also the addition of desirable ones (affection/attention).

So first I saw it appear when wanting to avoid undesirable circumstances. Then I saw it appear when wanting affection/attention. Not a great loop because they feed into each other. To stop wanting affection/attention was to welcome undesirable circumstances (a lack of attention/affection).

I think that in such a loop, especially without any awareness of the loop, it is self-sustaining. We become trapped in a particular response. And trying to directly tackle/stop that particular response is not going to work.

All that is to say that I agree. Looking at a particular manifestation and thinking "gee, wish that were different" is wisely viewed as "it could not have been otherwise, given current understanding"


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InvisibleDisoRDeR
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Re: Justification [Re: Kickle]
    #28220313 - 03/08/23 08:11 AM (10 months, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
How do you understand the psychology of justification?





It seems to have something to do with forming an outlook from the information we have access to, and rather than acknowledging the limitations of our conception, reinforcing it. Through that reinforcement we dig in along battle lines, mistaking our thoughts for our selves, rejecting conflicting ideas as threatening to ourselves.

Actions seem more justifiable when our boundaries are threatened. How relatable a justification is may depend on consensus, which depends on a similar outlook, which depends on access to information and filtering and so forth. Social reinforcement can drive the acceptance of all sorts of nonsense.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Justification [Re: DisoRDeR]
    #28220323 - 03/08/23 08:23 AM (10 months, 16 days ago)

Interesting study there
What do you think of this view from Freudian thinking:

Because we are conscious of so very little, and because that which does emerge consciously is tied to the ego/superego, our conscious decisions are justified by rational/ego and societal/superego means. If the rational and societal are at odds, one more likely chooses the rational at the expense of the societal.

It is only when things are shown as irrational or anti-social that one questions any decision. Otherwise all decisions appear justified.



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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineNotSheekle
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Re: Justification [Re: DisoRDeR]
    #28220325 - 03/08/23 08:24 AM (10 months, 16 days ago)

I have this dilemma in arguments with my girl.

“I just ______” or “I was just trying to ____”

Which I never understood as a statement of justification until I met her and heard how frequently she uses these ideas in her arguments. Understanding that she was coming from a position trying to explain why she did something the way she did helped me speak to her in her language but I rarely use justification statements like that.

I never really consider if what I have done is justified as it is usually thought out well beforehand where in her world her actions are done impulsively or compulsively leaving her to have to try and explain herself all the time.

When I think on a global scale, I am more confused about Justice, I believe without knowing the purpose of existence, our life here on earth and our place within humanity that none of us could actually formulate what being just actually looks like.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Justification [Re: Kickle]
    #28220327 - 03/08/23 08:25 AM (10 months, 16 days ago)

Chimps begin their lives remaining pretty much constantly physically attached to their mother for 5-10 months. Most human babies do not get that type of contact and attention. And clothing reduces the positive impact of physical contact, since it greatly reduces skin to skin contact. Feeling skin is very different than feeling clothing. 

Young adult male chimps remain very close to their mother. They sometimes groom their mother. Physical contact in chimps includes comforting behaviors such as holding hands and shoulder pats.  And of course, snuggling. 

I think humans generally receive a tiny percentage of the attention and affection they need.  Jesus - we put an hour old newborn in a plastic box!  There ain't no playpens, strollers, or cribs in a chimp's world.  Your example of kids faking being sick to stay home from school is a type of manipulation.  I guess similar to crying. 

I suspect human babies and toddlers receive less than 10% of the eye contact that an average chimp receives in the wild.  I think there are huge impacts for this.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Justification [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28220339 - 03/08/23 08:30 AM (10 months, 16 days ago)

I agree. Basic needs become complex in a complex world.

To have a resulting mental complex is in that way quite natural IMO


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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Justification [Re: NotSheekle]
    #28220374 - 03/08/23 08:53 AM (10 months, 16 days ago)

Quote:

NotSheekle said:
I never really consider if what I have done is justified as it is usually thought out well beforehand where in her world her actions are done impulsively or compulsively leaving her to have to try and explain herself all the time.

When I think on a global scale, I am more confused about Justice, I believe without knowing the purpose of existence, our life here on earth and our place within humanity that none of us could actually formulate what being just actually looks like.




I'm the reverse. The misses is often the more rational one :lol:

Interesting point about the global scale. How can one rationalize an unknown?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleDisoRDeR
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Re: Justification [Re: Kickle]
    #28220402 - 03/08/23 09:17 AM (10 months, 16 days ago)

Quote:

If the rational and societal are at odds, one more likely chooses the rational at the expense of the societal.





This bit is a tough sell for me as it seems to depend on the cultivation of rationality in a person's thought processes, which is probably dependent on the societal and some inherent capabilities of a person.

The quality of the product of rational thought is also dependent on accepted premises. Somewhere down the chain there are often pearls of truth being clutched. When parsing Freud's thought I have to twist my mind a bit to accommodate his pearls, so it never sat quite naturally in me, despite his apparent insight (but I haven't read all that much of him).  I do see value in the idea of preconscious/conscious gating and reinforcement of impulses.

Quote:

It is only when things are shown as irrational or anti-social that one questions any decision. Otherwise all decisions appear justified.




Our behaviour and ideas seems to be sculpted through feedback and reflection from the world around us in an ongoing process. I don't know about the "all decisions appear justified" part. I don't know if justification really enters into it until we perceive need to defend ourselves, which may involve defending our past actions and current identity from the niggling appearance of conflicting information in our minds.


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InvisibleDisoRDeR
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Re: Justification [Re: NotSheekle]
    #28220448 - 03/08/23 09:47 AM (10 months, 16 days ago)

Quote:


“I just ______” or “I was just trying to ____”




I've tried to purge this phrasing from my thought, as it seems superfluous and misleading. We're rarely just doing what we can identify. Phrasing things this way seems to shut down self-discovery, or shifts its burden to an interpersonal battlefield.


Quote:

I never really consider if what I have done is justified as it is usually thought out well beforehand




That's impressive. I often have no idea how I got here. :laugh:


Quote:

When I think on a global scale, I am more confused about Justice, I believe without knowing the purpose of existence, our life here on earth and our place within humanity that none of us could actually formulate what being just actually looks like.




Yeah. Justice is a tough one for me. Maybe it has something to do with cultivating conditions in which people no longer feel the need to justify themselves.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Justification [Re: DisoRDeR]
    #28220458 - 03/08/23 09:59 AM (10 months, 16 days ago)

This bit is a tough sell for me as it seems to depend on the cultivation of rationality in a person's thought processes, which is probably dependent on the societal and some inherent capabilities of a person.

This was Freud's logic as well. The ego is defined as the 'rational mind' and is dependent on societal values and more animalistic impulses to arrive at it's rationales. But in Freudian thinking, we are not conscious of the animal part weighing in. That takes digging in or a deeper reflection. Rather, consciously we are aware of the reasoning (balance between social and impulsive) and what the larger social structure might say about our reasoning. We don't consciously consider an action which happens in the complete absence of society, or is impulsive. Impulsive actions are not the result of conscious consideration in Freudian thinking but this does not mean they are baseless or shallow.

Freud's inclusion of social values should indicate that 'down the line' will always reflect social values. Which means one should not twist into a past society but instead reflect on current social values to view decision making in a Freudian way.

Our behaviour and ideas seems to be sculpted through feedback and reflection from the world around us in an ongoing process. I don't know about the "all decisions appear justified" part. I don't know if justification really enters into it until we perceive need to defend ourselves, which may involve defending our past actions and current identity from the niggling appearance of conflicting information in our minds.

Justification is synonymous with rationale. Which for Freud is what the ego is all about. It rationalizes the world around us. And in that way Freud agrees we only defend when the ego is threatened. But the defense happens because we already thought we were being reasonable.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Justification [Re: Kickle]
    #28220835 - 03/08/23 02:01 PM (10 months, 15 days ago)

err, the subconscious makes no sense


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Justification [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28220999 - 03/08/23 03:42 PM (10 months, 15 days ago)

Interesting addition. But why not? You don't think that the contents of consciousness can be thought of as dependent on other things?


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InvisibleDisoRDeR
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Re: Justification [Re: Kickle]
    #28221093 - 03/08/23 04:34 PM (10 months, 15 days ago)

Thanks for the elucidation.

Quote:

Justification is synonymous with rationale




I'm not sure about that, but that may be my idiosyncrasy. I see a difference in that one involves defending a course while the other only attempts to explain it.

Quote:

But the defense happens because we already thought we were being reasonable.




Is it possible to explore a rationale without thinking we are being reasonable?


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