Home | Community | Message Board

Magic Mushrooms Zamnesia
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Mushroom-Hut Liquid Cultures   Amanita Muscaria Store Amanita Extract   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1
InvisibleThomas Envisio
Artist

Registered: 12/28/22
Posts: 1,662
Re-Education On General Name Proposals
    #28213431 - 03/04/23 12:21 AM (10 months, 19 days ago)

I'd like to ask those of you who are long-term trusted identifiers a question regarding the main categories of fungi, and what names to propose when you struggle to get to a genus or species.

Preface: Before viewing this post, you may benefit strongly by changing a setting on this site. Here's how. Click "Account" at the top left. Click "Edit" next to "Display preferences, number of shown topics, languages, colors...". Scroll down to "Show full-sized hosted images instead of thumbnails?" and select Yes. Then select "Submit". You may need to adjust additional settings to view images if you've already altered them. The point of changing this setting is so that all images except avatars are displayed at full size in high resolution.



For nearly all gilled fungi, I utilize the name Agaricales sensu lato. Agaricales sensu lato = gilled fungi. (sensu lato = "in the broad sense"). There are exceptions when I will propose a different order for gilled mushrooms. For example, I may propose the family Russulaceae when I see something that could fit in the genera Russula, Lactarius, or Lactifluus.



For shelf/bracket poroid fungi, I utilize Polyporales sensu lato. This name encompasses all polypore fungi. Polypores are an informal group of fungi that form large fruiting bodies with pores or tubes on the underside. Using this name will allow polypore experts to more easily find observations to identify. This name will also cover some stipitate-poroid mushrooms.



For all stipitate-poroid fungi resembling bolete-like genera, I propose the name Boletales.



For gasteroid fungi of any form, I utilize the informal class Gasteromycetes. This includes puffballs, stinkhorns, earthstars,  and other fungi which may have very distant phylogenetic relationships.



What about coral fungi? Gomphales?



What about caveman club fungi?



What about leaf myceliums?



What about leaf spot fungi? Erysiphaceae?



What about crust fungi? Corticiales?



What about tooth/spine-bearing bracket fungi?



What about tooth/spine-bearing stipitate fungi?



What about jelly fungi? Heterobasidiomycetes



What about true cup fungi? Ascomycota, Pezizaceae, Pezizomycetes, and Helotiales?



What about flat disc-shaped "cup-like" fungi? Ascomycota

When should I and should I not use Basidiomycota?



For all Lichens, which are partially fungal life forms, I propose the informal name Lichen.



For all Myxomycetes, all of which are not classified as fungal life forms, I propose the name Myxomyetes. There's still room for learning here, and I hope you'll provide some feedback.



What about spoon-shaped or spathulate fungi? Geoglossaceae



For quote/unquote "leathery earthfans" I use Thelephoraceae



What about agaricicolous fungi that don't represent Hypomyces or Spinellus?

Any other tips and categories out there?


Edited by Thomas Envisio (03/28/23 02:41 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineToxicManM
Bite me, it's fun!
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/28/02
Posts: 6,721
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
Last seen: 17 hours, 7 minutes
Trusted Identifier
Re: Re-Education On General Name Proposals [Re: Thomas Envisio] * 2
    #28214049 - 03/04/23 12:05 PM (10 months, 19 days ago)

First, it's important to remember that there are levels of ID, and that every ID is a hypothesis. How close you can get to an accurate ID depends on how much information you have.

A field ID describes what most IDs really are, where it's based on the overall appearance of the collection and maybe a few extra features such as odor, habitat, or examination of some features with a hand lens. With distinctive species (eg, Amanita muscaria) a field ID is probably going to be good. With most collections a field ID will probably be based on stature and (possibly guessed) spore print color, and will probably be limited to genus (eg, Tricholoma, Entoloma, Russula, Cortinarius).

Try to limit what you're IDing to your area/region. I live in Colorado, and compared to the areas east of the Mississippi river we have almost no boletes. Since Tylopilus has not been found here, IDing one here would be difficult since we have no familiarity with them.

If you're trying to make good IDs, if you don't have a microscope yet, get one and some of the important stains and reagents, and learn to use them. Once you've gotten all that, you should be able to get accurately to genus with the vast majority of collections.

Quote:

For gilled fungi, I currently utilize the name Agaricales sensu lato.



As mentioned above, at least try to guess the genus or family.

Quote:

For poroid fungi, I utilize Polyporales sensu lato.



Again, try to make a guess on the genus.

Quote:

For gasteroid fungi of any form, I utilize Gasteromycetes.



Given what qualifies as "gasteroid", try to put them into smaller groups. After all, stinkhorns and birds nests are also gasteromycetes. Immature small puffballs with no mature spores are largely unidentifiable (without sequence data).

Quote:

What about coral fungi?



Locally here, most are Ramaria, but we also have Clavaria and Lentaria. You just need to learn what the features are for separating them.

Quote:

What about caveman club fungi?



Most of those here are Clavariadelphus, but there are also some close to Clavaria, and Cordyceps has turned up a few times. Find out what you have locally and how to separate them.

Quote:

What about leaf myceliums?



Mycelia in general are not identifiable without a sequence. They lack features, so there is no practical way to ID them.

Pretty much all IDing is of hymenophores.

Quote:

What about crust fungi?



Start with the spores (microscopy is required for most corticioids). Lief Ryvarden says that a corticioid without spores has no scientific value, but I think that with sequence data there might be some value even without spores.

Quote:

What about tooth/spine-bearing fungi?



Outside of the corticioids, there really aren't that many groups of these.

Quote:

What about jelly fungi?



At least in Colorado there aren't all that many kinds of jellies. Habitat will get you a long way with these. Here the three most common groups are Dacrymyces, Tremella, and Auricularia. Auricularia is pretty easy to tell apart. Without microscopy, remembering that Tremellas are *all* parasitic means that the presence or lack of a host on the log should separate them.

Quote:

What about cup fungi?



Here's a big can of worms. For every basidiomycete there are close to 20 ascomycetes. If you haven't done anything with these, maybe start with Michael Beug's book. IDing ascomycetes is an almost entirely different world from IDing basidiomycetes. You didn't mention lichens in your post, but that's yet another world unto itself. For that matter, rusts and smuts are yet still another group you can lose yourself in.

Here the majority of cups seem to fall into either the Pezizomycetes or Helotiales. The other groups occur here, but aren't collected as much. Learning to ID ascomycetes is almost like starting over learning how to ID - the features are very different from the basidiomycetes.

Quote:

What about flat "cup-like" fungi?



If you're talking about the larger cups, then they should be easier than the smaller cups because there are not nearly so many of them. As with any ascomycetes, microscopy is where you'll need to spend much of your time.

Quote:

When should I and should I not use Ascomycota or Ascomycetes?



If you have a hymenophore and a microscope, you ought to at least be able to get it down to operculate or inoperculate.

Quote:

When should I and should I not use Basidiomycota?



I can't offhand think of a case where you should need to. If you're doing an ID, you should have a hymenophore and can at least classify it according to the general appearance of that hymenophore.

Quote:

Is there a better way to organize the bolete-like names in this regard?



Bolete taxonomy has certainly ballooned recently. I don't keep up with it all that much, but by my last count we're at least in the high sixties for genera for species that were in the genus Boletus just 30 or 40 years ago. The other "main" bolete genera seem to be doing similar things. Since we have relatively few kinds of bolete here, I don't spend a lot of time with them.



Remember that any ID is a guess (another name for hypothesis), and that it is based on whatever limited information you have at the time. Don't waste time worrying that you're not using the current most recent name for something. Unless you're publishing a paper, it's not that important. Accept that you will be wrong on some of your IDs.

With all that in mind, feel free to guess! Forcing yourself to make a guess will help you move along toward being better at IDing.

If you're trying to get good at your local area, start by trying to learn whatever there's a lot of. As you get better, focus on the ones you find yourself having more interest in.


--------------------
Happy mushrooming!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLucisM
Nutritional Yeast

Registered: 03/28/15
Posts: 15,622
Last seen: 1 month, 27 days
Re: Re-Education On General Name Proposals [Re: Thomas Envisio]
    #28215155 - 03/04/23 11:53 PM (10 months, 18 days ago)

is this the only site you're active on?

These two are good too!

https://mushroomobserver.org

https://www.inaturalist.org


--------------------
©️


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThomas Envisio
Artist

Registered: 12/28/22
Posts: 1,662
Re: Re-Education On General Name Proposals [Re: Lucis]
    #28215301 - 03/05/23 03:44 AM (10 months, 18 days ago)

I haven't really gotten into iNaturalist, but I've visited several times.

Mushroom Observer is definitely the best mushroom site on the internet, in my view. We need more photographers, though, and we need more identifiers. I've been trying to identify really difficult genera, and oftentimes what it comes down to is a lack of proper photographs capturing specific taxonomic characters in great clarity. Each taxon should have a really good looking observation associated with it. We aren't there yet. Are you on MO yet? If not, can you consider joining?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThomas Envisio
Artist

Registered: 12/28/22
Posts: 1,662
Re: Re-Education On General Name Proposals [Re: ToxicMan]
    #28215302 - 03/05/23 03:45 AM (10 months, 18 days ago)

Thank you, ToxicMan! Those are good points!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThomas Envisio
Artist

Registered: 12/28/22
Posts: 1,662
Re: Re-Education On General Name Proposals [Re: Anonymous]
    #28227490 - 03/13/23 09:11 AM (10 months, 10 days ago)

I've edited my original post above so it will hopefully receive more responses from trusted identifiers and similar identifiers who may not have a Trusted Identifier mark.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRenegadeMycologist
On the case
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/05/20
Posts: 3,817
Loc: Serbia Flag
Last seen: 7 days, 12 hours
Trusted Identifier
Re: Re-Education On General Name Proposals [Re: Thomas Envisio]
    #28227696 - 03/13/23 11:36 AM (10 months, 10 days ago)

If you don't know what it is, basically any s.l. name will cut it. Now with all the new phylogenetic discoveries and recent advances in dna sequencing, all the lines are blurred. Convergent forms seems to be pretty common occurrence from separate lineages. That is pretty nihilistic discovery through the prism of pictorial identification, because it only gets you so far, looking at the macro form of a mushroom. Better said, it leaves us waiting for all the mushrooms to be sorted correctly with phylogeny, then see what macro and micro markers are actually relevant to identify them to species and genus. Best example is how Melzer and Wachter sorted coprionoid genera and now we can start identifing them correctly using pictures (macro) and micro.

So I wouldn't bash my head againt the wall over this, at least not any more. The appropriate time to use a family or order name for identifying a mushroom is when you are certain that it belongs to that particular family or order, but you are unsure which genus it falls under. E.g. your mushroom is either Leratiomyces or Stropharia, so you call Strophariaceae.
But if your mushroom looks like a Stropharia, but something is not really right for Stropharia, you better call it Stropharia s.l. or Agaricales s.l. - Strophariaceae might not be any more correct, it could actually be wrong.

Without the intent to get more philosophical, my point is that if you want to do real identification you must study most recent publications, and that takes time. Or you pick a group of mushrooms and be at the forefront of sorting that group so you help others to identify mushrooms from that group successfully.
If you want to be generalist IDer you go through mushrooms, call the ones you recognise, and leave others alone. Changing names from fungi to Corticiaceae s.l. is futile in essence, it might help the website to have more mushrooms indexed for searching purposes, but it didn't help in identification.


--------------------
:mushroom2:  l e a r n i n g  t h i n g s :mushroom2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAlan RockefellerM
Mycologist
Male User Gallery
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,266
Last seen: 11 hours, 54 minutes
Trusted Identifier
Re: Re-Education On General Name Proposals [Re: RenegadeMycologist]
    #28228522 - 03/13/23 09:44 PM (10 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

RenegadeMycologist said:
Changing names from fungi to Corticiaceae s.l. is futile in essence, it might help the website to have more mushrooms indexed for searching purposes, but it didn't help in identification.





Changing names from fungi to Corticiaceae s.l. is really helpful because that way crust fungi experts can search for the crust fungi and identify them.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRenegadeMycologist
On the case
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/05/20
Posts: 3,817
Loc: Serbia Flag
Last seen: 7 days, 12 hours
Trusted Identifier
Re: Re-Education On General Name Proposals [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #28228898 - 03/14/23 06:02 AM (10 months, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

RenegadeMycologist said:
Changing names from fungi to Corticiaceae s.l. is futile in essence, it might help the website to have more mushrooms indexed for searching purposes, but it didn't help in identification.





Changing names from fungi to Corticiaceae s.l. is really helpful because that way crust fungi experts can search for the crust fungi and identify them.



Yes that might be true, especially if they have the notification by mail option selected for a certain group. However, it's worth noting that without microscopy and reagents crust fungi in most cases are impossible to ID correctly. That is basically the answer you'll get when you post crust fungi for an identification in any group where experts hang out, they will request that data and usually refrain from throwing names without it.


--------------------
:mushroom2:  l e a r n i n g  t h i n g s :mushroom2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThomas Envisio
Artist

Registered: 12/28/22
Posts: 1,662
Re: Re-Education On General Name Proposals [Re: RenegadeMycologist]
    #28230789 - 03/15/23 02:27 PM (10 months, 8 days ago)

Thank you to everyone who provided feedback and support! If anyone can think of additional names to propose to better organize observations for specialists, please post!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRenegadeMycologist
On the case
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/05/20
Posts: 3,817
Loc: Serbia Flag
Last seen: 7 days, 12 hours
Trusted Identifier
Re: Re-Education On General Name Proposals [Re: Thomas Envisio]
    #28231116 - 03/15/23 07:52 PM (10 months, 8 days ago)

If you're hoping to summon experts by changing names from fungi to Agaricales I don't think you'll get very far.

From what I see MO now has Help identify section, as far as I remember it didn't exist before, and it was much needed. Adding it is a brilliant move and it will make things much better. When I get my shit together I'll definitely do runs through fuck load of observations.

Have you consider talking with administrators or if you are part of administration, to consider implementing some sort of interface in "help identify" section which will have a few basic filters for agaricales, corticiales, polypores etc. These ones can effectively be put into s.l. sections without nessesarly going through every single observations and changing names to Polyporales s.l. Agaricales s.l. etc. They could set up moderator (eg. yourself) to sort new observations into groups, or even better some sort of automated system, perhaps to evolve into AI powered system in the next few years. Additionally maybe promt a user for selecting between those groups upon uploading to help the process. Generalist IDers would go through those, and set them to lower ranks, genera ideally, and only then you'll get Calyptela, Amanita, Coprinellus, Gaestrum and other experts to deliver a final word. There's a guy who whenever I upload Gaestrum comes out of nowhere and pin it to species immediately. Using any other name and he's nowhere to be found.

That is just my idea, and an opinion, keep up with enthusiastic work on mo, and do whatever you can to keep it relevant and up to date.


--------------------
:mushroom2:  l e a r n i n g  t h i n g s :mushroom2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThomas Envisio
Artist

Registered: 12/28/22
Posts: 1,662
Re: Re-Education On General Name Proposals [Re: RenegadeMycologist]
    #28231444 - 03/16/23 12:49 AM (10 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Have you considered talking with administrators, or if you are part of administration, considered implementing some sort of interface in the "help identify" section which will have a few basic filters for Agaricales, Corticiales, Polypores, etc.?




Not yet. There's a quiet person who's developing this new "Help Identify" interface, and I've been trying to support this new feature by going through nearly all of the observations in that interface. There are still lots of "bugs" to sort out, so new feature requests are best held off on for now. Good ideas, though!

If you have any further ideas for categorizing jelly and/or coral fungi, it would really help people out.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRenegadeMycologist
On the case
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/05/20
Posts: 3,817
Loc: Serbia Flag
Last seen: 7 days, 12 hours
Trusted Identifier
Re: Re-Education On General Name Proposals [Re: Thomas Envisio]
    #28231607 - 03/16/23 06:35 AM (10 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Thomas Envisio said:
If you have any further ideas for categorizing jelly and/or coral fungi, it would really help people out.



There's no shame in leaving mushrooms by those common group names, even inaturalist uses common names. If you are unsure what names to use just derive s.l. names in latin from a common name -> do that for all groups in question. When I say common names I am not referring to "witch hat", but rather groups: jellies, clubs etc.

But since you are pushing for names to be chosen on a more specific level, jellies and corals are effectively scattered between classes: Agaricomycetes, Dacrymycetes, Tremellomycetes. So the only safe name to use is subphylum of Agaricomycotina. Would that help anyhow ?!

I strongly believe that just having mushrooms sorted by common group names for ID purposes is a good idea, that way they not carrying taxonomical rank ID hence avoiding the possible ID error. I have already argued here that using taxonomical names might be incorrect, and s.l. names might be a better choice.
Furthermore, generalist IDers would go through them as pleasing at the particular moment. If you want to try IDing jellies one day, next day Agaricales, or someone likes to ID Polyporales, they just select the option to filter by those groups.


--------------------
:mushroom2:  l e a r n i n g  t h i n g s :mushroom2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThomas Envisio
Artist

Registered: 12/28/22
Posts: 1,662
Re: Re-Education On General Name Proposals [Re: RenegadeMycologist]
    #28231678 - 03/16/23 08:31 AM (10 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

But since you are pushing for names to be chosen on a more specific level, jellies and corals are effectively scattered between classes: Agaricomycetes, Dacrymycetes, Tremellomycetes. So the only safe name to use is subphylum of Agaricomycotina. Would that help anyhow ?




I fully understand the point you just made, and I agree to an extent. The name Agaricomycetes wouldn't help in this particular example. However, we could classify fungi into the Dacrymycetes and Tremellomycetes with temporary effectiveness. Or we could create Species Lists dividing some of these groups for an expert to eventually go through those observations. What seems necessary is for a new pair of mycologists to team together and consider new levels of classification, if justified phylogenetically. I would NOT be trusting of those mycologists working in collaboration with those in Thailand who have considered such a move.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacrymycetes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tremellomycetes

I like your idea of new sensu lato names. I don't yet see any room for  such names, though, for jellies or corals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebacinales
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auriculariales

Clavarioid sensu lato for corals?

Or maybe just Species Lists initiated after the development of a list called Calvarioid sensu lato?

What do you folks think is the best approach here?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRenegadeMycologist
On the case
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/05/20
Posts: 3,817
Loc: Serbia Flag
Last seen: 7 days, 12 hours
Trusted Identifier
Re: Re-Education On General Name Proposals [Re: Thomas Envisio]
    #28231996 - 03/16/23 12:33 PM (10 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Thomas Envisio said:
Or we could create Species Lists dividing some of these groups for an expert to eventually go through those observations.



In essence that is what I am recommending, but for it to be implemented through Help identify section. Identifiers go into help identify section, filter for larger groups, s.l or not, and they grind mushrooms down to lower ranks. Later more specific IDs are acquired, when genera experts chime in for final section and species names.
This approach would not work for all groups though, Corticiaceae require more data besides pictures.

Quote:

Thomas Envisio said:
Or maybe just Species Lists initiated after the development of a list called Calvarioid sensu lato?



Yes, species list available through Help identify interface.

Quote:

Thomas Envisio said:
I like your idea of new sensu lato names. I don't yet see any room for such names, though, for jellies or corals.



There are infinite possibilities for those names, you just have to be creative, and you can use those names arbitrarily to make large groups (species lists) that could be added into Help identify. No one has to use those names as observation names, rather species lists could be named that way to help identifiers start. Painful process of going through every single observation and changing name is not recommended imo.

Quote:

Thomas Envisio said:
Clavarioid sensu lato for corals?



My suggestion and correct Latin nomenclature would be Clavarioides sensu lato.
For jellies Gelatinomycetes sensu lato could be utilised.

You could create those names and start using them, however you might get slight resistance from adminstrators. That is why I think it should probably be used only for grouping of fungi for identification in Help Identify, or create "species list" if you will, see if it can be linked with this new interface.


--------------------
:mushroom2:  l e a r n i n g  t h i n g s :mushroom2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThomas Envisio
Artist

Registered: 12/28/22
Posts: 1,662
Re: Re-Education On General Name Proposals [Re: RenegadeMycologist]
    #28232009 - 03/16/23 12:44 PM (10 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

My suggestion and correct Latin nomenclature would be Clavarioides sensu lato.
For jellies Gelatinomycetes sensu lato could be utilised.




I really like this idea and would support it, but outside the scope of a Species List, which MO admins do not care about. MO admins do not even like the Species List features, and they have barely explored the possibilities in allowing others to use them for IDs. These new proposed names would have to be general names as a result. I've already requested a million features, plus reported countless bugs.

Someone else is going to have to create these names who has a dignified status among MO staff. Can one of you reading this thread give this some solid consideration?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThomas Envisio
Artist

Registered: 12/28/22
Posts: 1,662
Re: Re-Education On General Name Proposals [Re: Thomas Envisio]
    #28232014 - 03/16/23 12:49 PM (10 months, 7 days ago)

I should have added something above. Besides these new names not being intended for Species Lists, they also should not be part of the new Help Identify interface by nimmo. nimmo is working constantly on fixing other things as I understand it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThomas Envisio
Artist

Registered: 12/28/22
Posts: 1,662
Re: Re-Education On General Name Proposals [Re: Thomas Envisio]
    #28245777 - 03/25/23 08:23 AM (9 months, 29 days ago)

Minor Update: I've made a couple of changes to the original post. All cordial comments are still appreciated.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1

Shop: Mushroom-Hut Liquid Cultures   Amanita Muscaria Store Amanita Extract   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* the Fungi stand cactu 918 1 02/06/09 10:09 AM
by cactu
* post picture , information ideas about Fossil Fungi cactu 5,672 10 01/19/09 11:23 AM
by meatspin
* identifying as far as basidiomycota and ascomycota name 573 2 08/11/09 06:43 PM
by name
* Winter Forrest Fungi Forray *PICS* **UPDATED**
( 1 2 all )
Ice House Shaman 4,762 28 12/19/07 09:07 PM
by Silver Jay
* Horse poo id... Not actives ascomycota? Seekingtruth 379 7 07/16/12 09:10 PM
by Seekingtruth
* Fungi growing in my car. WTF?!
( 1 2 all )
Amatoxin 9,912 36 08/10/07 03:00 AM
by Amatoxin
* licens or fungi? Paid 1,134 6 03/20/03 02:24 AM
by zeronio
* Mushrooms & Moss: A Fungi Photo-Shoot RebelSteve33 1,398 6 08/11/03 04:50 PM
by Abracadabra

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: ToxicMan, inski, Alan Rockefeller, Duggstar, TimmiT, Anglerfish, Tmethyl, Lucis, Doc9151, Land Trout
491 topic views. 0 members, 12 guests and 10 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.023 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 14 queries.