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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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conversation * 3
    #28195897 - 02/20/23 10:52 AM (11 months, 1 day ago)

Meeting people and establishing friendships and intimate relationships is rooted in conversation. Maybe a few people are born with the natural ability to engage in conversation (which includes good listening skills) but I think that's fairly rare.

Most of my life I've sucked at conversation. I used to say, "I hate people".  I've done some learning (and facing my fears) and now I find conversation fairly easy. People are often attracted to me when they discover I'm comfortable with conversation. I think it's a teachable skill.  I wish I would have learned it 30 years ago.

Should we teach kids the art of conversation? I believe all human relationships are based in conversation.  Isn't this much more important than learning calculus or the name of the 23rd POTUS?

And how does this relate to people who claim to experience "social anxiety"?


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InvisibleModernShitake
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Re: conversation [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 2
    #28196072 - 02/20/23 01:22 PM (11 months, 1 day ago)

Thats interesting to think about man, as someone with some level of social anxiety and awkwardness, I would've loved to have had some "conversation lessons" as a kid and picked up some extra skills, fs.

This also reminded me of "The Rehearsal" by Nathan Fielder. a show where they reherse important events for regular people in elaborate ways so that they are confortable doing it for real later.

It kind of works, but not really in those cases.

Also, so many other factors may influence that such as trauma that may happen years after all those lessons and Bam! social anxiety is there to stay.
Definetly more important than whatever they try teaching us in school tho


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: conversation [Re: ModernShitake] * 1
    #28196710 - 02/20/23 08:35 PM (11 months, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

ModernShitake said:

Also, so many other factors may influence that such as trauma ...




I agree.

I've experienced a lot of social anxiety and awkwardness in my life, and my son has struggled with it also. As he exits his teenage years, it is less. He has taken two public speaking classes, and that might have helped.

He used to talk to me about how he felt fear about making eye contact with others - especially people he did not know.

You mention awkwardness - which makes me think of the term "self-conscious". I've sometimes wondered about what that means exactly. 

Looking it up, I see definitions such as

Being nervous or uncomfortable because you are worried about what people think about you or your actions.

Feeling undue awareness of oneself, one's appearance, or one's actions.


It's seems related to fear. An inner experience that rooted in our relationship with ourselves.

BTW, people often say that women are attracted to "confident" men.  I wish I would have understood in my younger years that being "confident" is not so much a personality trait as having a lack of fear. Often we think of confidence as being bold, brash, powerful, and dominant. But confidence is often (usually) very subdued and quiet. Look at a very confident leader - they often speak and move very slowly and deliberately.


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Conversation [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #28196851 - 02/20/23 11:30 PM (11 months, 18 hours ago)

Well said man. I completely agree with you. Conversation should be taught in English class. Its taught in Spanish class but never really with English classes, at least in my experience.

Confidence is having the courage to face and endure stressful situations without fear. A skill that can be learned over time, and for people like me and you, it can take years to learn social-based confidence.


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OfflineRoflspammer
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Re: Conversation [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 2
    #28197031 - 02/21/23 07:15 AM (11 months, 11 hours ago)

Social skills are taught in high school. Lack of social confidence and anxiety surrounding personal missteps is not going to be addressed by formulaic conversation class. I think public schools need more emphasis on psychology and ethics instead; reading Ralph Waldo Emerson is going to get you further than having someone give you canned directions on how to fail and still get back up at the end of the day. Going to therapy is going to be much more effective at understanding why you don't speak up or avoid introducing yourself to new people than having a teacher force you to introduce yourself to everyone. I don't know how to solve other's problems for them, but in my experience owning my awkward moments was the solution; the solution was not eradicating them.

I think we're too hard on ourselves too often, especially when reflecting on our youth. A scared little child was birthed violently into a world of rules which over its lifetime are learned and passed on through conversation


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OfflineAbombs
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Re: Conversation [Re: Roflspammer] * 1
    #28197184 - 02/21/23 09:24 AM (11 months, 8 hours ago)

I am aweful at conversation. I believe I have social anxiety.
I am a hermit.
I eat lots of psychedelics :smile:


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Invisibleloladoreen
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Re: conversation [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28197193 - 02/21/23 09:33 AM (11 months, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Meeting people and establishing friendships and intimate relationships is rooted in conversation. Maybe a few people are born with the natural ability to engage in conversation (which includes good listening skills) but I think that's fairly rare.

Most of my life I've sucked at conversation. I used to say, "I hate people".  I've done some learning (and facing my fears) and now I find conversation fairly easy. People are often attracted to me when they discover I'm comfortable with conversation. I think it's a teachable skill.  I wish I would have learned it 30 years ago.

Should we teach kids the art of conversation? I believe all human relationships are based in conversation.  Isn't this much more important than learning calculus or the name of the 23rd POTUS?

And how does this relate to people who claim to experience "social anxiety"?




A lot of people get diagnosed with social anxiety. A lot of people have it that don't know they have it.
It is very real. And very easy if you want to overcome it to work on it and overcome.

The art of conversation I think is something we learn in the home, at school, etc. BUT society has changed. We have gamers that play for hours upon hours and lose social skills, the internet- talking on the internet is not he same as holding a conversation. People work from home.
We have changed as a society.
I know there are communication classes and such.
COVID made it worse for people that already had issues and created new issues for new people.
I think focusing on raising confident children may be more important. Because the rest will follow.
Lack of confidence is the seed of many disorders.


--------------------
“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: conversation [Re: loladoreen]
    #28197336 - 02/21/23 11:26 AM (11 months, 6 hours ago)

Roflspammer -
Social skills are taught in high school.

Can you elaborate?  I found my years of education to be more about memorizing information. And feeling like I was herded around like cattle. Line up. Turn your paper in. Etc. I didn't find education to be very interactive. Yes, I did have some light conversations with friends at lunch recess.

Roflspammer -
Lack of social confidence and anxiety surrounding personal missteps is not going to be addressed by formulaic conversation class.

Isn't a critical aspect of the art of conversation defeating the belief one can make a "misstep"?  Addressing that irrational fear head on?  For much of my life I've simply had no good ideas about how to engage people.  Even something like debate class doesn't provide information or develop skills about how to have a conversation at dinner with your prom date.

Roflspammer -
I think public schools need more emphasis on psychology and ethics instead

:thumbup:

I think both are important. 

Roflspammer -
Going to therapy is going to be much more effective at understanding why you don't speak up or avoid introducing yourself to new people than having a teacher force you to introduce yourself to everyone.

Therapy can help us confront our fears - amen. I've been working on that for a decade. Social anxiety & awkwardness are largely rooted in irrational fears. What can actually go wrong in a conversation? The rational answer is "nothing". The fight or flight response evolved to be useful when we are in real danger, like when a tiger attacks us.

I think we can defeat our irrational fears. One aspect is purely experiential. It's like interviewing for jobs. The more you do it, the more at ease you are and the less fear you feel. I used to hate interviews. But now I better understand the skills of conversation and in job interviews I actually end up spending time interviewing the interviewers. They love it, because it makes for a 2-way conversation instead of (the boring) answer the list of questions routine. 

I used to be terrified during dates - what do I say??? There are some ideas that can help catalyze a conversation. For decades I didn't understand that people love to talk about what's important them. I know, that seems so basic, but I didn't understand that. A cornerstone of the art of conversation is knowing how to ask good questions. Most people love to talk about themselves! Yes, even shy people. The word "shy" is interesting. Regarding the subject of fear.

loladoreen -
A lot of people get diagnosed with social anxiety.

Often such a diagnosis is seen as a medical disorder and "just how I am wired". Notice how people insist "I am an introvert". That's dangerous because it implies permanence. For much of my life I believed I was an "introvert". But after working hard to address the fear, I've discovered I'm no such thing. That belief actually stunted my growth.


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Invisibleloladoreen
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Re: conversation [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28197353 - 02/21/23 11:39 AM (11 months, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Roflspammer -
Social skills are taught in high school.

Can you elaborate?  I found my years of education to be more about memorizing information. And feeling like I was herded around like cattle. Line up. Turn your paper in. Etc. I didn't find education to be very interactive. Yes, I did have some light conversations with friends at lunch recess.

Roflspammer -
Lack of social confidence and anxiety surrounding personal missteps is not going to be addressed by formulaic conversation class.

Isn't a critical aspect of the art of conversation defeating the belief one can make a "misstep"?  Addressing that irrational fear head on?  For much of my life I've simply had no good ideas about how to engage people.  Even something like debate class doesn't provide information or develop skills about how to have a conversation at dinner with your prom date.

Roflspammer -
I think public schools need more emphasis on psychology and ethics instead

:thumbup:

I think both are important. 

Roflspammer -
Going to therapy is going to be much more effective at understanding why you don't speak up or avoid introducing yourself to new people than having a teacher force you to introduce yourself to everyone.

Therapy can help us confront our fears - amen. I've been working on that for a decade. Social anxiety & awkwardness are largely rooted in irrational fears. What can actually go wrong in a conversation? The rational answer is "nothing". The fight or flight response evolved to be useful when we are in real danger, like when a tiger attacks us.

I think we can defeat our irrational fears. One aspect is purely experiential. It's like interviewing for jobs. The more you do it, the more at ease you are and the less fear you feel. I used to hate interviews. But now I better understand the skills of conversation and in job interviews I actually end up spending time interviewing the interviewers. They love it, because it makes for a 2-way conversation instead of (the boring) answer the list of questions routine. 

I used to be terrified during dates - what do I say??? There are some ideas that can help catalyze a conversation. For decades I didn't understand that people love to talk about what's important them. I know, that seems so basic, but I didn't understand that. A cornerstone of the art of conversation is knowing how to ask good questions. Most people love to talk about themselves! Yes, even shy people. The word "shy" is interesting. Regarding the subject of fear.

loladoreen -
A lot of people get diagnosed with social anxiety.

Often such a diagnosis is seen as a medical disorder and "just how I am wired". Notice how people insist "I am an introvert". That's dangerous because it implies permanence. For much of my life I believed I was an "introvert". But after working hard to address the fear, I've discovered I'm no such thing. That belief actually stunted my growth.




I think it is normal to self diagnose. But a real diagnosis is different. And can assist someone in pairing them with what they best need.
Sometimes it can create more issues.
I think the most important thing to remember is we are all unique and there is no cookie cutter treatment, guideline, way,etc.
For every person it is different.
For children we can offer a base. As adults we determine what we need more or less of, if anything at all.
The Dx is a medical disorder. And not.. but for  insurance reasons so the clinician can be paid.
It does not need to be viewed as a disorder.
It is all in the persons perception. You can be diagnosed with something and in 6 weeks the prior Dx no longer applies. Because they no longer meet criteria based on the changes they made with themselves.
People can grow and change if they so desire and I feel we need to support that.
Often red tape- like diagnosis can harm people, if they view it that way. Others it can motivate. Most do not care. You are NOT your diagnosis.
I need to work on my conversation skills...
I dont think I have social anxiety enough to meet a diagnosis. I think I have a lack of confidence but really they are trauma responses.


--------------------
“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: conversation [Re: loladoreen]
    #28197372 - 02/21/23 11:48 AM (11 months, 6 hours ago)

"For every person it is different."

Social anxiety is different for everyone?  That's quite an assumption. If you take 100,000 people who "have social anxiety" then there are 100,000 different manifestations or root causes?  People who criticize explanations for being "too simplistic" often go to the extreme end of the spectrum and claim "everyone's experience is very unique."


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Invisibleloladoreen
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Re: conversation [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28197383 - 02/21/23 11:56 AM (11 months, 6 hours ago)

No, I meant treatment for social anxiety.
For everyone it is different. There is no cookie cutter way.
What works for you may not work for me- we are different, have different lives, feelings, expereinces, etc.


--------------------
“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”


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Offlinetowndaze
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Re: conversation [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28197513 - 02/21/23 01:43 PM (11 months, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:

And how does this relate to people who claim to experience "social anxiety"?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trivium

We need to bring this back.


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Time is nature's way of making sure that everything doesn't happen at once.


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Re: conversation [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #28197553 - 02/21/23 02:23 PM (11 months, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Meeting people and establishing friendships and intimate relationships is rooted in conversation. Maybe a few people are born with the natural ability to engage in conversation (which includes good listening skills) but I think that's fairly rare.

Most of my life I've sucked at conversation. I used to say, "I hate people".  I've done some learning (and facing my fears) and now I find conversation fairly easy. People are often attracted to me when they discover I'm comfortable with conversation. I think it's a teachable skill.  I wish I would have learned it 30 years ago.

Should we teach kids the art of conversation? I believe all human relationships are based in conversation.  Isn't this much more important than learning calculus or the name of the 23rd POTUS?

And how does this relate to people who claim to experience "social anxiety"?





Some prison camps teach this now. They call it thinking for a change, but they pretty much pinpoint where you slack in conversation, or what may be misconstrued, or what is pushy or edgy or vague, and teach you better ways to converse. There’s a lot more to their programs, but this is a main one they really push.


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Invisibleloladoreen
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Re: conversation [Re: vandago]
    #28197988 - 02/21/23 07:08 PM (10 months, 30 days ago)

Interesting


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: conversation [Re: loladoreen] * 3
    #28209448 - 03/01/23 12:47 PM (10 months, 23 days ago)

I've recently become interested in storytelling. I now appreciate that telling stories is a big aspect of conversation and building relationships. We share stories with our friends, intimate partner, the grocery clerk, Uber driver, etc.    Work meetings involve story telling. Life is telling stories. A powerful story can spark meaningful conversation and mutual feelings of trust and intimacy.

We can be brought to tears by a fictional movie or book.  Why?  After all, the story is untrue, and we know it.  There are different types of stories. One common story is a character in pursuit of a goal who faces challenges or obstacles.

A "good" story is often easy to understand, relatable, and contains emotion. The emotional element is a big thing.  I don't consider myself an expert storyteller.  But I told a story at Thanksgiving dinner last year that impacted others in a dramatic way (I was asked to repeat it at Christmas for others) and now I better understand why it got such a strong response.

Oftentimes a conversation is trading stories.  Our stories reveal what is important to us.


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Conversation [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #28210508 - 03/02/23 03:25 AM (10 months, 22 days ago)

Great insights there!

Emotions are how we relate to one other on a deeper level. And stories put emotions into context, either fictionally or factually. And the emotions evoked from the stories are actually felt and feel real. We even dream in stories.

Story telling is as old as Humanity itself, going all the way back to the Caveman days, sitting around a campfire, telling stories to our tribes. An important ancient social artform that will probably carry on far into the future....


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