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Offlinesolarshroomster
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I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS * 3
    #28209073 - 03/01/23 06:54 AM (10 months, 23 days ago)

I'm frustrated. I don't know who's to blame exactly: the way other people taught me, public education, scientism, bullshit "spiritual" artists, dogmatic ideological fundamentalists, the unnecessary screaming battles between "science vs. religion", myself and my own internal perpetual doubting, the lust for material goods. I don't want to lash out and be angry, but somehow, I feel misled. And I'm sorry about it.

I feel misled into thinking the "mystical dimension" or whatever you want to call it was probably just BS at the end of the day. To be honest, I think I always had a general faith in something good and G-d, but in the back of the mind, I was thinking what I felt society was teaching me: this spiritual mumbo-jumbo is probably just a security blanket. You live by complete "randomness", you're a piece of meat, you die and it's all darkness for you, there's galaxies "out there" and you're just a small fry, the Big Bang blew particles everywhere "out there". That's it. Now I see how completely misled I was. I was wrong spiritually, wrong philosophically, wrong morally, and even wrong scientifically.

Imagine my surprise when I got vectored into the mystical domain with absolutely no guide map!! (get the point?)

Here I am in a world - the "mystical world" (whatever you want to call it) - that I was insinuated didn't exist, I'm patently dealing with it, and now having to reconcile 30 years of me being in denial my entire life. It's not exactly a comfortable thing when things are happening in your Reality that are incongruent with what you were told for 30 years of your life. I feel like I can divide my life into Part A (first 30 years where I was in denial, although there were definite precursors) and Part B (the next 30 years where I'm now in a visionary "wavelength" or whatever you want to call it). When you see something that "wasn't supposed to happen" happen, it can be... a little unsettling. When your worldview is completely shattered, it's a little hard. Now, I feel destabilized: I'm at a point where I don't know up from down, left from right, so to speak. It's not that bad, I'm tough; more just frustrated.

What annoys me more is that many people in the outside world continue to play this shell game as if the mystical domain is BS. It's really a mystery to me why this continues to be the case and, in fact, has become almost more of a curiosity to me than the actual existence of the mystical domain itself. It honestly makes me feel like I'm in the Truman Show, or that I'm psychotic. Like, why do these spiritual denialists continue to hold water when they've (repeatedly) shown to be backwards from mass human experience over history and animal life? This has really needlessly hurt a lot of people, myself included.

Look, I don't want to turn this into me being angry at the world. Everyone's just doing their best with the limited information they get. I get it. At the same time, although I want to think it could have been just a simple miscommunication issue (ie. people were trying to tell me, but I wasn't listening), I think I would be in denial if I refused to acknowledge that a lot of it was intentional maladaptive delusional misdirection by bad actors (myself included) that I have a responsibility to correct so that what happened to me doesn't happen to other people.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter who's to blame for this. They shall be forgiven. I just want to make sure that what happened to me--stumbling upon the spiritual domain with no guide map (in the sense that I, wrongly, thought it was fake) doesn't happen to other people. If there's one thing good I can do in this world, it's to get people to actually be open-minded to the possibility that there may be a dimension outside this-worldly understanding, to think imaginatively about the possibilities, and bask in ecstasy & wonder over being alive as and for Reality!

If nothing else, I just hope some future being (possibly from another time, or after the Big Crunch, or who knows where) stumbles upon this post and no longer feels alone; I hope that being is encouraged to revitalize wonderment. Whoever gets a hold of this post, please know that you mean a lot and matter. You're more than a piece of meat. You're Reality alive - never lose sight of that and you can always find a place to rejoice in wonder, as well as take solace through life's material difficulties.


--------------------
Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


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OfflineFridgedoor
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28209107 - 03/01/23 07:36 AM (10 months, 22 days ago)

I am happy for you.

I think what it comes down to is to not always listen to others and trying to see the world they see it, but to try to find your own answers.
Because we are all living in our own little realities and some of these realities differ greatly. I say one should be allowed to believe in what makes one content in life.

As long as you are a functional being and you don't hurt yourself or others everything is groovy.


--------------------
Hokus Pokus Fidibus!


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Invisiblehogswarm
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28209198 - 03/01/23 08:48 AM (10 months, 22 days ago)

I found your post. Thanks, and hello from this point of existence.

I'm sorry if it seems like someone intentionally misled you. Maybe they were only trying to share what they truly believe.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to share how you feel.


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InvisibleLithop
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Fridgedoor]
    #28209282 - 03/01/23 09:49 AM (10 months, 22 days ago)

Great thread!
Let me preface saying I too, am happy for you.

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
I was thinking what I felt society was teaching me: this spiritual mumbo-jumbo is probably just a security blanket. You live by complete "randomness", you're a piece of meat, you die and it's all darkness for you, there's galaxies "out there" and you're just a small fry, the Big Bang blew particles everywhere "out there".
That's it. Now I see how completely misled I was. I was wrong spiritually, wrong philosophically, wrong morally, and even wrong scientifically.





You're probably wrong in your assumptions of the world now, that's partly the thrill of it all. :yesnod:

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
When you see something that "wasn't supposed to happen" happen, it can be... a little unsettling. When your worldview is completely shattered, it's a little hard. Now, I feel destabilized: I'm at a point where I don't know up from down, left from right, so to speak. It's not that bad, I'm tough; more just frustrated.




:yesnod: Because you didn't believe in it before.
Don't you find relief in thinking there's something beyond the material?

I'm sorry it has been unsettling for you but look into some grounding techniques around exersise and other Earthly shit to try and deal with the destabilisation.
Even if you've just 'found out' about something doesn't mean you haven't been living among it this whole time already...


Quote:

solarshroomster said:
At the same time, although I want to think it could have been just a simple miscommunication issue (ie. people were trying to tell me, but I wasn't listening), I think I would be in denial if I refused to acknowledge that a lot of it was intentional maladaptive delusional misdirection by bad actors (myself included) that I have a responsibility to correct so that what happened to me doesn't happen to other people.




The evidence of an experiential world that goes beyond the phenomenal is always available for those willing to read between the lines but retain a clear sense of what it takes to exist in the physical realm, IMO.

Your anger about who to blame made me think of the kind of dogmatic "versus something" view (that you yourself already expressed distaste for) which is defeatist as it applies to fully integrating our waking lives, with that of the paranormal.

There's more than enough room for Science and Mysticism in the Universe.


Quote:

solarshroomster said:
If there's one thing good I can do in this world, it's to get people to actually be open-minded to the possibility that there may be a dimension outside this-worldly understanding, to think imaginatively about the possibilities, and bask in ecstasy & wonder over being alive as and for Reality!




I'm of the opinion if there's one good thing you can do in this world it's to strive to be your best self in order to give back to the Universe.

Open mindedness doesn't mean believing something you don't believe on someone elses recommedation.
It's noones job to 'wake anyone else up' I firmly believe if you're gonna go down the path of looking for something 'deeper' in life (spirituality, the occult, clown college) then you're going to persue those curiosities and learn to live with the consequences sooner or later.

I'm sorry if any of that came off as flippant.
I genuinely do think your aim of helping others who may struggle or feel alone when on their 'journey of discovery' is ultimately admirable, the overall tone/vibe just makes it feel a bit off to me.

FridgeDoor said it best, man:

Quote:

Fridgedoor said:
As long as you are a functional being and you don't hurt yourself or others everything is groovy.




Words to live by, no matter the dimension.:tongue2:

Cheers!
:bongload:


--------------------


šŸŒ¬ļø 🌻 āžžāžžāžž ā®ā®ā®ā® 🌈 ā¹ā‘¤ā“æ šŸŒ¬ļø 🌻 āžžāžžāžž ā®ā®ā®ā® 🌈 ā¹ā‘¤ā“æ  šŸŒ¬ļø 🌻 āžžāžžāžž ā®ā®ā®ā® 🌈 ā¹ā‘¤ā“æ


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Offlinesolarshroomster
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Lithop]
    #28210037 - 03/01/23 06:30 PM (10 months, 22 days ago)

I really like what everyone wrote here. I like hogswarm's shout out: "hello from this point of existence". Very trippy! You write the truth... if more points of experience like yours were in my life, I probably wouldn't have faced the cognitive dissonance that I have gone through these past few months.

Lithop - you don't sound flippant at all! I actually love your comments, they're really valuable to me. I guess I have a few follow-up questions though.

Quote:

1.) Why does the Mystical realm play this game with us, where it has the habit of often making us look like fools trying to explicate anything on the topic?


It's like it hides it surface... hard to explain, and when we try to explain it, we sound foolish??? You say that that I am "probably wrong in my assumptions of the world now, that's partly the thrill of it all. :yesnod:" I 100% agree, but I find it more than just "thrilling". It's definitely magical, but I also find it very uncanny and surreal. After all, this is my life that's basically been discovered to be a science-fiction movie!!!! You write as if it's a given that there's something beyond the material. I would say it's more a given that the people asserting that the mystical domain doesn't exist are extremely foolish, but they've dominated my life. I think that's where my vibe is coming off as peeved...

Quote:

2.) You write that "The evidence of an experiential world that goes beyond the phenomenal is always available for those willing to read between the lines but retain a clear sense of what it takes to exist in the physical realm, IMO." But why do we have to just "read between the lines"?


Can't we speak of the mystical truths in a more open fashion? Hogswarm just did so above, and yet I hear none of this type of communication in the "real world".

Quote:

3.) Why do you feel that 'It's noones job to 'wake anyone else up' I firmly believe if you're gonna go down the path of looking for something 'deeper' in life (spirituality, the occult, clown college) then you're going to persue those curiosities and learn to live with the consequences sooner or later."?




OK, this is where I sort of have a difference of opinion with you. Hear me out, hear me out. I feel as though maybe you didn't grow up around the same issue that I did, but I feel like there's lots of brothers & sisters out there that could benefit from hearing more of your thoughts, more of your great mystical thoughts. Maybe, I haven't been around the sun enough times, but it's very confusing to me why the Message isn't out there more. I've been overwhelmed by screaming battles between dogmatic "science vs. religion", intellectual materialists, a general bigoted dismissal of the spiritual as "woo woo", and I've seen a lot of outright spiritual frauds. All of this combined to unfairly delude me into not taking the mystical domain the slightest bit seriously--I was pretty sure it didn't exist. Until it ran it's face into my head one too many times. And I crashed. I feel a duty to prevent others from suffering with the same spiritual illness and subsequent crash that I faced.

I like your pacificism, but here's why I start to disagree -- it's not clear to me that we need to just "learn to live with the consequences sooner or later", if we could do more to prevent those consequences by teaching preventative measures to begin with. In particular, I'll note that our disregard for the Mystical truths and the Golden Rule that follows logically from it has led us to the Anthroprocene, where we are killing off life at the rate of 100 to 1,000 times the normal background extinction rate. If we knew our connection to Nature, we would act a lot differently. Almost more importantly in my view, many of us wouldn't feel as spiritually destitute as we do now.


--------------------
Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


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InvisibleLithop
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28210479 - 03/02/23 02:05 AM (10 months, 22 days ago)

Gonna put this in 2 posts so I can quote you properly.

Quote:

solarshroomster said:Lithop - you don't sound flippant at all! I actually love your comments, they're really valuable to me. I guess I have a few follow-up questions though."




Awesome, I'm glad I didn't come across like the right sour little prick I began to suspect :lol:

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
1.) Why does the Mystical realm play this game with us, where it has the habit of often making us look like fools trying to explicate anything on the topic?

It's like it hides it surface... hard to explain, and when we try to explain it, we sound foolish???




I'm wholly of the belief that there are concepts well beyond human comprehension, currently, and that the paradoxical nature of trying to explain something beyond your comprehension leaves you in a state of confused frustration.
Being used to explaining yourself coherently, this comes across to your own self-judgement as foolish.
Like when you're trying to recollect something in conversation but can't, and it's there on the tip of your tongue! If only you could remember in that moment.
Either that or the it's a kind of 'Doubting Thomas' situation and the faith needs tested to work.

I'm not sure WHY that is but I know, anecdotally that, the more casually I treat the "unknown forces" of the Universe, the more readily I feel their influence. :shrug:

Perhaps it's to do with exercising free will?


Quote:

solarshroomster said:
You say that that I am "probably wrong in my assumptions of the world now, that's partly the thrill of it all. :yesnod:" I 100% agree, but I find it more than just "thrilling". It's definitely magical, but I also find it very uncanny and surreal.




I fully wrote that from a place of being a contrarian :lol: It reeks of "YOU THINK YOUVE GOT IT AAAAALL FIGURED OUT, DONT YA?!"
And for that, I apologise.

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
After all, this is my life that's basically been discovered to be a science-fiction movie!!!!



:yesnod: And what a joyous revelation that can be!

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
You write as if it's a given that there's something beyond the material.




Just based off experience and instinct.


Quote:

solarshroomster said:
I would say it's more a given that the people asserting that the mystical domain doesn't exist are extremely foolish, but they've dominated my life.




It's all personally subjective though, man.
In this instance you're like the train-head (spoiler alert on an upcoming analogy haha), angry at your fellow passengers for failing to recognise the marvel of engineering they're aboard.

So what if people wanna assert that the world as presented by strict Scientific Materialism is all there is out there?
They deserve to follow that hunch as much as you deserve to follow your own.
(Although I acknowledge that the popular lean toward belittling, baselessly discrediting or otherwise ridiculing others for their 'wacky' beliefs is fucking gross and shouldn't be as readily accepted)

It's that dichotomy between foolish and correct that got my hackles up on your original post.

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
I think that's where my vibe is coming off as peeved...





Trust me, I understand.:thumbup:

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
2.) You write that "The evidence of an experiential world that goes beyond the phenomenal is always available for those willing to read between the lines but retain a clear sense of what it takes to exist in the physical realm, IMO." But why do we have to just "read between the lines"?

Can't we speak of the mystical truths in a more open fashion? Hogswarm just did so above, and yet I hear none of this type of communication in the "real world".




I think this is more a miscommunication.
I didn't intend on it to come across as "reading between the lines" vs "open dialogue" rather that, if you are on a certain path yourself - and you didn't start down it by 'conventional means '- then you can assume others will find their way to the starting point just as you did, by 'fumbling in the dark' guided by their own intuition and perseverance.

^The reading between the lines.

But if, for example, you're someone who has trouble accepting/ seeing the hard-line physical realities that bind you in your life experience, then I'm of the opinion you shouldn't dive too much into esoteric/ mystical ideas, or put too much weight on them. For your own wellbeing.

^The retention of what it takes to exist with Earthly-awareness.

I'm generally an advocate for open dialogue about the wild shit that I think goes on, I love it.
But I think it's important to really consider the motivation for wanting to talk about it.

Are you looking to find comfort in hearing commonality to your own experiences, putting less strain on your already overworked doubt systems and rationality engine (which are still vital in keeping you safe) and allowing you to further immerse yourself in occult study with view to improving the lives of yourself and others?

Or do you wanna shout from the rooftops like the soldier from Pineapple Express
"ITEM 9 EXISTS! IT IS THE BEES KNEES!" to make everyone see the truth and liberate themselves from a belief system that didn't work properly for you so, presumably, doesn't work for a lot of people?

Considering those examples and their outcomes as they relate to your life might help with the "why" you don't hear the type of talk you mentioned in the "real world".

Look at it this way:
When you take the train, do you keep your eyes on the rails the whole time to ensure connection, or do you kick back and read a book, trusting there are measures in place to keep the train on the rails?
Now consider the passengers, sure there may be one or two "train-heads" on board who could tell you the model, specs and even- if seeing a fellow passenger in distress- could explain the safety mechanisms of this model.
But the majority are using the train out of  necessity with no conscious regard to it's functionality beyond perhaps fleeting curiosity.

Do the train-heads owe it to themselves or the rest of the passengers to come forward with their "advanced knowledge" of trains, knowing at least one person might be brought comfort from it?
What about when a percentage of the passengers are actively fed up of hearing about train parts & how they work and all the attempts at explaining 'on their terms' actually turns their experience of the train-ride into a negative one?

IME, most people just wanna take the train without consideration as to exactly how every aspect functions and that's their right as rail passengers.


Quote:

solarshroomster said:
3.) Why do you feel that 'It's noones job to 'wake anyone else up' ?




Because of agency and free will.
Why do you feel you've the right to direct someones path under the assumption you've got the answer they need?

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
OK, this is where I sort of have a difference of opinion with you. Hear me out, hear me out.




I REFUSE!
Actually, ok. :tongue2:

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
I feel as though maybe you didn't grow up around the same issue that I did




Maybe I didn't.
Closed minded, orthodox religious bigotry, condescending authority figures who praise you for parroting dogma but shun your curiosity for the magic of nature & wonder of Science, repeated attempts to discredit your experiences culminating in generalised angry dismissal of your viewpoint on pretty much anything?

If it was anything along those lines I think I could relate but if you wanted to elaborate I'd appreciate the perspective!

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
but I feel like there's lots of brothers & sisters out there that could benefit from hearing more of your thoughts, more of your great mystical thoughts.




Disagree, even I've had enough of my... "great mystical thoughts" (stoned ramblings of a young acid-casuality who got MK Ultra'd off Ram Dass podcasts? :lol::rolleyes: plus the amount of weed and shrooms you need to keep 'em coming in? Fuggedabbatit.

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
Maybe, I haven't been around the sun enough times, but it's very confusing to me why the Message isn't out there more.




Been round less and have often been confused by thinking that too.

But the message IS out there, just lost in a sea of "Feng Shui your way to bliss" books, New-Age cult leaders and now the ever growing billion dollar 'self help' industry that grabs these seed concepts and spins them into currency-generators.

To me- the message lives out in the quiet sanctuary of nature, it lives in the paragraph you didn't understand 3 months ago that now rings clear with fresh-learned meaning, it lives in the iridescent surface of a soap bubble that you've blown to delight your little brother or sister as you play.

It also lives in the painful memories that helped form a protective shell for all that time, in the dismissive glance of the shopkeeper as you count your sparse coins to buy a bottle of milk and in the pang of pain you feel when cold air hits that tooth you should have gotten sorted a long time ago.

The message lives all around us, it's woven into the very fabric of experience.

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
I've been overwhelmed by screaming battles between dogmatic "science vs. religion", intellectual materialists, a general bigoted dismissal of the spiritual as "woo woo", and I've seen a lot of outright spiritual frauds.
All of this combined to unfairly delude me into not taking the mystical domain the slightest bit seriously--I was pretty sure it didn't exist




Yeah it can be noisy, annoying and frustrating.
What gave you the impression it was about fair?
Fair ≠ Balance.
"Par for the course" as they say, try not to take it personally.
I was pretty sure A LOT of stuff didn't exist, now I strive to be more open minded without falling into bias traps.


Edited by Lithop (03/02/23 04:22 AM)


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InvisibleLithop
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Lithop]
    #28210481 - 03/02/23 02:06 AM (10 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
Until it ran it's face into my head one too many times. And I crashed. I feel a duty to prevent others from suffering with the same spiritual illness and subsequent crash that I faced.




I feel it and I respect it. :yesnod:

The notion of duty is absolutely admirable, but I ask whether your role has to be that of the messenger?

Or could you find some way to align your newfound want to spread "the message" in an inclusive way that allows its rays to be cast on both those who are similar and dissimilar to yourself?

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
I like your pacificism, but here's why I start to disagree -- it's not clear to me that we need to just "learn to live with the consequences sooner or later"




"Learning to live with the consequences" was more related to your comment on "spiritually crashing" and how it relates to persuing esoteric shit and going down a load of rabbit-holes.
There's crashes happening there, often, too.

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
If we could do more to prevent those consequences by teaching preventative measures to begin with.




What preventative measures do you mean here?


Quote:

solarshroomster said:
In particular, I'll note that our disregard for the Mystical truths and the Golden Rule that follows logically from it has led us to the Anthroprocene, where we are killing off life at the rate of 100 to 1,000 times the normal background extinction rate.




Agree :yesnod:

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
If we knew our connection to Nature, we would act a lot differently.





To act purely out of fear of losing, is grasping rather than acting from true love, that is to say- treat the planet right because you love it, not cos you're scared it's gonna die.
I believe it's more about remembering our connection.

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
Almost more importantly in my view, many of us wouldn't feel as spiritually destitute as we do now.




Striving to move on from a place of feeling spiritually destitute into a more spacious existence is a beautiful goal and a great closer on this comment.

I feel like despite our disagreements on the specifics of conduct, we're both looking at things from a pretty relatable perspective.

:juicy: thread, thanks for the discussion so far.

I love this shit.

Cheers!

P.S You might get a kick out of the book "The Myth of Disenchantment: Magic, Modernity, and the Birth of the Human Sciences"


Edited by Lithop (03/02/23 04:23 AM)


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: solarshroomster] * 1
    #28210750 - 03/02/23 09:21 AM (10 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
Everyone's just doing their best with the limited information they get. I get it.




Quote:

solarshroomster said:
I've been overwhelmed by screaming battles between dogmatic "science vs. religion", intellectual materialists, a general bigoted dismissal of the spiritual as "woo woo", and I've seen a lot of outright spiritual frauds. All of this combined to unfairly delude me into not taking the mystical domain the slightest bit seriously--I was pretty sure it didn't exist.





These two points go hand in hand IMO. You, too, were doing the best with the limited information you had.

It may be helpful to reframe this as the result of personal circumstances, or karma. Others have their own set of circumstances, or karma. I think it's noble your want to help others, truly. But don't forget that every aspect of your journey so far has led to where you stand. Remove anything and where you stand changes.

If you deeply value where you stand now, does it not make sense to deeply value all those who were in your path and therefore helped you arrive at this place? In this way, does it make sense to look at others as enemies or obstacles? As you pointed out, all can be forgiven.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinesolarshroomster
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Lithop] * 1
    #28210796 - 03/02/23 10:14 AM (10 months, 21 days ago)

Yes, I love this shit too. Great thoughts, and I agree... we seem to primarily having disagreement on the specifics of conduct, but we're both hitting upon a common thread. Actually, here's some context: I'm in the process of writing a Book about the "Divine Realm" or whatever you want to call it, and, right now, it's just in draft form (to get my ideas out there on paper), but it's evolving. My inspiration for writing this book has evolved: Originally, it was just this diary entry, but, as I started getting going with it, I wanted it to be to help inspire other people. If the goal is to help other people, I need to listen to opinions like yours, so I'm also evolving my understanding of how I am to be a Messenger, if at all.

So, this leads us to your question:

Quote:


The notion of duty is absolutely admirable, but I ask whether your role has to be that of the messenger?

Or could you find some way to align your newfound want to spread "the message" in an inclusive way that allows its rays to be cast on both those who are similar and dissimilar to yourself?...




OK, so I'm not sure exactly if I am to be a Messenger :dielaughing:. I think what's been unacceptable though is me sitting in a corner and being afraid to share ideas that could actually open up individuals' minds when we have, frankly, a good deal of mind pollution out there. It's cowardly.  Now, what you say in the second paragraph there is what I'm most focused on, namely "spreading 'the message' in an inclusive way that allows its rays to be cast on both those who are similar and dissimilar to [myself]". 100% that.

In fact, I have been meaning to get this post out for a long time, and, for psychologically interesting reasons, I haven't released it until now. Anyhow, in the original post drafted, I included this message at the very end:

***In later posts, I will lay out cures to those who are diseased by the collective delusion I was hypnotized into thinking... My posts will be intended to be an empowering journey for the soul and correct the needless spitting wars between science & religion. It will also encourage the reader to take open interpretation and develop their own form of Mysticism & Skepticism that is suited for their own well-being & enrichment.


So, basically, I want my Message to be inclusive. I'm of the view that the broader models of reality are just that: models of reality, and, together, they form a much deeper pattern for a Higher Truth. Hard to explain, but essentially: I don't like making conclusions, I like keeping things open-ended, and I want to empower the receiver of my Message to develop their own Message. For I believe Reality is alive through You, and so the only way I can complete my mission is to empower you to feel alive and take sail with your imagination. You get what I'm getting at?

However, in my Book, it's hard for me not to put in some thoughts that I personally find interesting around dissociative solipsism, simultaneous dreaming, "all is one", monopsychism, and the whole rodeo I've had visions about. I've steered away from reading books, because I want my ideas to be authentic, but now I've read some stuff and, yes, it's pretty much hitting upon my same ideas. However, at the same time, and I think this is very important to understand... I think these concepts are irrelevant to the real truth, and I'm very worried about getting myself tied up into an ideology that the Mystical domain transcends, which I know it does. This is part of what I was getting at with how we wind up looking foolish trying to pin down the Mystical domain.

Ultimately, the good news is that there is no uninteresting answer to the decision tree of: Why Does Reality Exist? Physicists say there's no reason for the "laws of physics" and many theologians equally bunt on G-d. Both of these interpretations are actually very magical. I personally believe there's a reason, but whatever the case may be -- Existence is Pure Wonder, and the invocation of that feeling I want to be my Message. So, no specific Message, just a feeling to help others guided towards what they find Good.

//

Some other thoughts:

Quote:

I'm wholly of the belief that there are concepts well beyond human comprehension, currently, and that the paradoxical nature of trying to explain something beyond your comprehension leaves you in a state of confused frustration.
Being used to explaining yourself coherently, this comes across to your own self-judgement as foolish.
Like when you're trying to recollect something in conversation but can't, and it's there on the tip of your tongue! If only you could remember in that moment.
Either that or the it's a kind of 'Doubting Thomas' situation and the faith needs tested to work.

I'm not sure WHY that is but I know, anecdotally that, the more casually I treat the "unknown forces" of the Universe, the more readily I feel their influence




This is incredibly good insight for me! Thank you! I never thought about it this way before, although the "Doubting Thomas" theory has been one idea of mine that I've theorized.

What do you mean by "the more casually I treat the 'unknown forces'". What do you mean by "casually"?

Quote:

But the message IS out there, just lost in a sea of "Feng Shui your way to bliss" books, New-Age cult leaders and now the ever growing billion dollar 'self help' industry that grabs these seed concepts and spins them into currency-generators.

To me- the message lives out in the quiet sanctuary of nature, it lives in the paragraph you didn't understand 3 months ago that now rings clear with fresh-learned meaning, it lives in the iridescent surface of a soap bubble that you've blown to delight your little brother or sister as you play.

It also lives in the painful memories that helped form a protective shell for all that time, in the dismissive glance of the shopkeeper as you count your sparse coins to buy a bottle of milk and in the pang of pain you feel when cold air hits that tooth you should have gotten sorted a long time ago.

The message lives all around us, it's woven into the very fabric of experience.




Very well put. Yep, I agree. The Message is in Life itself, which is probably the only way to linguistically get out the Mystical Truth.

With that saiiiiidddd..., I still think humans can make more of an effective attempt at pointing things out. Don't you think our dialogues would benefit the world to see? Personally, I like contributing to this discussion mostly, because I hope it leads someone who was in my position to go "shit, maybe there is something to the mystical I didn't appreciate before". You realize that you and I are talking about the mystical domain and debating very specific minutiae that suggests we've seen similar things, granting a little objectivity to what some thought was just a BS delusion?

You admit: "Although I acknowledge that the popular lean toward belittling, baselessly discrediting or otherwise ridiculing others for their 'wacky' beliefs is fucking gross and shouldn't be as readily accepted". To me, the operative word here "popular lean".

Indeed, it has become popular. Witness the constant "genius" adulation of Neil deGrasse Tyson on TV to the wonders of science and how we are to look at the cosmos and see the stars, and feel ourselves like a piece of meat separate from it. Witness his constant dismissals of UFO experiences, because, you know, well... empiricism hasn't pinned that phenomenon down yet, and it doesn't quite fit well into the orthodox worldview. It should not be surprising that people, once they've forgotten their mystical Home, are compelled to do what I did: focus on the material world of accumulative wealth. It's not a good philosophy, and it's leading to our own apocalypse, as well as the degradation of nature. So, yes, I feel a correction towards the right path needs to be pointed out by a Messenger. The fact that you call this spiritual disenchantment the "popular lean" is what absolutely needs correcting, and, while I think there's nobility in being a pacificist, I also think it's cowardly to just sit in a corner and not get ideas out there that might inspire a global awakening.

I love your analogy about the train-head and the passengers. Here's my thoughts on it: some of the passengers are having a good time, but, if our society is any indication, many of them are suffering from anxiety, despair, and boredom. Perhaps it's because they don't know how beautiful their trainride is? For those who are hypnotized (not a bad thing!) into liking not knowing and just going about their day, fine! But, I think when you look at society, we are in total spiritual despair. The increase in technology and material wealth, without an understanding of the metaphysical dimension, is, unsurprisingly, not bringing about the expected increase in net happiness. A new model is needed.

Lastly, and more important to my point - you say that the existence of something beyond the material is "just based off experience and instinct" and then dump on yourself "even I've had enough of my... "great mystical thoughts" (stoned ramblings of a young acid-casuality who got MK Ultra'd off Ram Dass podcasts? :lol::rolleyes: plus the amount of weed and shrooms you need to keep 'em coming in? Fuggedabbatit."

Perhaps that's the issue. Society has made YOU feel stupid for feeling differently from the "popular lean". I'm of the view that your visions on weed and shrooms may actually mean something to Reality. Disregarding one state of consciousness to uphold the delusions of the other is unacceptable, in my mind. Maybe I'm taking you too seriously, but, based on your self-deprecation, I get the impression that you feel obligated to feel guilty because you have different views from the delusional "consensus reality". I think that those in the "consensus reality" should feel obligated to listen to you a little bit more, open their minds, and stop making you feel guilty.

As for my background, it's similar to yours, but only the character titles have changed. Instead of it being "Orthodox Religion", it was "Orthodox Scientism" insisting to me that believing in anything that feels Good is "biased", I'm just seeking a "security blanket", and on and on they go. Stephen Hawkings, no doubt a genius, who I was led to admire once opined that the "afterlife was for those afraid of the dark". Think about that for a second, this guy's a genius, and he knows full well that, even under his belief system, that the experience of seeing dark after you die is a "no go" (I suspect he believes there's no experience at all, so this would preclude "seeing"). But, he throws out some meat for the scientistic masses to digest, and on and on we go with trying to make everything that has the semblance of spirituality sound stupid. Science is the real truth!, they say (except, it's only a scientific method, and can't capture the full truth). And then there's the dogmatic religious fundamentalists on the other side, as well as the pop "feel good" spiritual artist / bullshitters who don't contribute to instilling a lot of confidence in me about the existence of the mystical domain. That needs to change, and I don't care if it entails someone screaming out "ITEM 9 EXISTS! IT IS THE BEES KNEES!" Maybe, we need more of that to disrupt our normal way of linear thought. Maybe we should stop with the bigoted dismissals of the stoned and those who think differently.

So, honestly, the people who bullied you are the same people who bullied me, they've just been given different names. At the end of the day, spiritual reality has held itself true in my experience, and now I feel obligated, yes, to get that word out, because it's being drowned out by the inundation of spiritual disenchantment. I'm realistic on the limits of what I can likely achieve, but to not make an attempt would be incredibly cowardly.


--------------------
Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


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InvisibleLithop
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: solarshroomster] * 1
    #28212029 - 03/03/23 05:33 AM (10 months, 21 days ago)

Awesome response, solarshroomer, thanks for taking the time to address it all!:super:

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
Yes, I love this shit too. Great thoughts, and I agree... we seem to primarily having disagreement on the specifics of conduct, but we're both hitting upon a common thread. Actually, here's some context: I'm in the process of writing a Book about the "Divine Realm" or whatever you want to call it, and, right now, it's just in draft form (to get my ideas out there on paper), but it's evolving. My inspiration for writing this book has evolved: Originally, it was just this diary entry, but, as I started getting going with it, I wanted it to be to help inspire other people. If the goal is to help other people, I need to listen to opinions like yours, so I'm also evolving my understanding of how I am to be a Messenger, if at all.





Super interesting stuff, how long have you been working on it and how 'in depth' do you plan on going?

No mean feat to take on this sort of endeavour and I wish you all the best in the process dude! :yesnod:
I find it intoxicating to be involved in such a deep project, you can really immerse yourself.


Quote:

solarshroomster said:
OK, so I'm not sure exactly if I am to be a Messenger :dielaughing:. I think what's been unacceptable though is me sitting in a corner and being afraid to share ideas that could actually open up individuals' minds when we have, frankly, a good deal of mind pollution out there. It's cowardly.  Now, what you say in the second paragraph there is what I'm most focused on, namely "spreading 'the message' in an inclusive way that allows its rays to be cast on both those who are similar and dissimilar to [myself]". 100% that.





Only 'cowardly' to the inner critic, keep that in mind because that voice can be full of shit so often man (I'm sure you're aware of that) :lol:

Whilst I understand where you're coming from with your opinion that it would be detrimental to not at least ATTEMPT to spread a message of acceptance of more esoteric ideas and opinions, there are two basic maxims that spring to mind as being important to keep in view as you work on your writing:

Charity Begins at home.


How much more 'at home' can you get than your own internal experience?

Some degree of honest forgiveness against the percieved aggressors has to be practised before you can hope to show clarity in your message, by trying to (no matter how noble the intent) spread a message of open minded inclusivity but doing it AGAINST (for sake of the thread lets just say 'Dogmatic Materialism') DM, your message is already just an argument against DM instead of a key to someones discovery of a more fulfilling world view.

We need to try and strip away power-based us & them type shit from not only the language, but the INTENT in order to really speak from a place that isn't simply one debate podium against another.

It sounds like you want to help, sometimes you can't help and win.

Onto the second maxim for consideration, one that is insultingly on the nose, so I do apologise if you feel an instinctive eye roll :lol:

Actions speak louder than words.

By 'practising what your preach' more before you 'preach' it, you'll perhaps shed some dead-weight from your book(in regards to the us & them) because you'll have genuinely moved on, psychologically, from some of the reactive feelings of seeking retribution.

Actively research (again) the Scientific views behind topics you see as 'mystic' and try your best to appreciate/ understand the viewpoint.

If you can't, ask yourself where your opposition comes from.

The now (IE it doesn't fit with your understanding) or the past (that's what THEY would say.)

Straight up open a dialogue with whatever the 'outside guiding forces' of the Universe and ask about guidance on how to present your project.
Interpret what you percieve as 'responses' but be honest and explain them away with rationality until you can't.

Use this excersise at the very least to reach into your own mind a bit without all the conditioned blinkering we do to ourselves, get out of your thinking mind a bit and begin work on fine-tuning your intuitive apparatus.

Additionally you will probably start to draw new & interesting connections between other topics once you free up the 'RAM' you've been allocating to combat, which IMO will give your writing all the more credence as someone who doesn't feel the need to take part in the shit-slinging match about 'Truth'.

Kickle touched on that with:

Quote:

Kickle said:
It may be helpful to reframe this as the result of personal circumstances, or karma. Others have their own set of circumstances, or karma. I think it's noble your want to help others, truly. But don't forget that every aspect of your journey so far has led to where you stand. Remove anything and where you stand changes.




That's what I was getting at with "Fumbling in the dark" the course of action these guiding events often take is so seemingly chaotic in the moment ("The Lord works in mysterious ways" type...) that to desire some 'fast track' for others is actually harmful as they might not have the tools needed to navigate the space they find themselves dropped into (familiar? It was for me haha) which could burn them out on whole swathes of viewpoints that could enrich their life.

See also "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

By deciding to live a certain way, and sticking to it- you have no idea who in your sphere of influence could take inspiration from your ACTION which- so longs performed with honesty- allows them to draw inspiration & connection from their own experiences, ideas, concepts and so on, rendering your EXAMPLE in life far more valuable than any EXAMPLE in writing.
You'd be the 'messenger' through action, rather than word.

In some way to be a 'background person' yet still holding strong belief and moral conviction is one of the strongest ways to perpetuate an ideal, IMO.


"I think what's been unacceptable though is me sitting in a corner and being afraid to share ideas that could actually open up individuals' minds when we have, frankly, a good deal of mind pollution out there. It's cowardly."

I definitely wouldn't call inaction on this subject 'cowardly' though, again I belive that's an echo of the type of mentality that needs abolishing in these fields.


Quote:

solarshroomster said:
In fact, I have been meaning to get this post out for a long time, and, for psychologically interesting reasons, I haven't released it until now. Anyhow, in the original post drafted, I included this message at the very end:

***In later posts, I will lay out cures to those who are diseased by the collective delusion I was hypnotized into thinking... My posts will be intended to be an empowering journey for the soul and correct the needless spitting wars between science & religion. It will also encourage the reader to take open interpretation and develop their own form of Mysticism & Skepticism that is suited for their own well-being & enrichment.





I wonder about these "psychologically interesting reasons" if you aren't comfortable doing so that's cool, but do you mind elaborating?
Are you already considering/intuiting some sense that there are circumstances under which your project should best be released?


"An empowering journey for the soul"
certainly seems to sum up your true intentions here, and it comes across, but that's all the more reason to strip away the VS BS and lay out carefully and deliberately what could turn out to be a beautiful guide on how to train and strengthen the balance of Skepticism and Mysticism in your life to more fully take in the wonder of the Universe.

In a way that doesn't discount Science or the Paranormal but instead encourages a type of measured, open minded, open hearted viewpoint that allows the gift of TRUST IN YOUR BELIEFS to properly flourish on each persons individual terms.


Quote:

solarshroomster said:
I'm of the view that the broader models of reality are just that: models of reality, and, together, they form a much deeper pattern for a Higher Truth. Hard to explain, but essentially: I don't like making conclusions, I like keeping things open-ended, and I want to empower the receiver of my Message to develop their own Message.
For I believe Reality is alive through You, and so the only way I can complete my mission is to empower you to feel alive and take sail with your imagination. You get what I'm getting at?




I believe I DO get what you're getting at and in esscence I totally agree.

My worry is that your focus on "Completing your mission" of showing others how to take sails with their imagination (you've worded that section really nicely dude. Thats the sort of stuff I feel people may resonate more readily with than the VS mentality)
you're denying yourself of that same boon, which besides being sad when it seems like you KNOW the value it can provide, also prevents you from TRULY understanding the message yourself!



Quote:

solarshroomster said:
However, in my Book, it's hard for me not to put in some thoughts that I personally find interesting around dissociative solipsism, simultaneous dreaming, "all is one", monopsychism, and the whole rodeo I've had visions about. I've steered away from reading books, because I want my ideas to be authentic, but now I've read some stuff and, yes, it's pretty much hitting upon my same ideas. However, at the same time, and I think this is very important to understand... I think these concepts are irrelevant to the real truth, and I'm very worried about getting myself tied up into an ideology that the Mystical domain transcends, which I know it does. This is part of what I was getting at with how we wind up looking foolish trying to pin down the Mystical domain.




Ah I see, fair enough. You don't want to just reiterate someone elses writings in your own voice.
I genuinely think the only concept in question here that is "irrelevant" is that of 'real truth'.
That, I believe, will always become your sticking point and vector into fucky ideology if you don't outright omit it.

"Trying to catch smoke with your bare hands"
comes to mind RE: pinning down the mystic domain, but just as everyones experience of 'reality' is different, so too it may be in realms outside of this one.
So by focusing so heavily on that (explainatory) side of things you may do a disservice to the entirety of your message.


Quote:

solarshroomster said:
I personally believe there's a reason, but whatever the case may be -- Existence is Pure Wonder, and the invocation of that feeling I want to be my Message. So, no specific Message, just a feeling to help others guided towards what they find Good.




THAT is what the focus of your writing should be, IMO. Removed from all the superfulous points made to legitimise your 'stance'



Quote:

solarshroomster said:
This is incredibly good insight for me! Thank you! I never thought about it this way before, although the "Doubting Thomas" theory has been one idea of mine that I've theorized.

What do you mean by "the more casually I treat the 'unknown forces'". What do you mean by "casually"?




Glad it got the cogs turnin'!
How do I define 'casually'? Good question.

I suppose I just try my best to accept that there's a shit tonne of EVERYTHING that I don't understand and rather than spending so much energy on EXPLAINATION I instead try to redirect that to spend it on APPRECIATION.

I believe they call it 'Faith'
:tongue2:

This simple recontextualisation of how I encounter the world around me had a profound impact that led me from in the shit to THIS IS IT
:awecid:

Now, I'm terminally-curious about everything and LOVE to find out how stuff works, but there are some instances (like mine for example- curiosity outweighing intellect, not a put down but a truth for most everyone I assume) where perhaps knowing the mechanism of action can be encumbering, rather than enlightening.

A guy on here, RGV, said once [paraphrased]

Quote:

redgreenvines said:Sometimes it is best to put the beliefs to one side and let experience fill the gaps."




^ :yesnod:
If you're dead set on using 'truth' as your barometer then that's probably enough.
If you can get used, a bit more, to just feeling life without having to ascribe meaning or find truth from everything then not only would you be surprised how much is meaningless/ has no bearing on your existence but how often your questions are being answered in unassuming places.

Not even necessarily a mystical revelation, that,  as much as one that comes from scrubbing off some of the more stubborn layers of programming and personal biases.



I gotta bounce out for now and do some IRL stuff- I WILL get back to the rest of this  post later on dude!

Until then, hope you're having a good day and

cheers!


--------------------


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Offlinesolarshroomster
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Lithop] * 1
    #28212190 - 03/03/23 08:33 AM (10 months, 20 days ago)

Wow... Lithop, I read your post and absolutely LOVE it. I will definitely take it to heart as a write about this Book. I'll make sure to let you know the chapter titles soon. Anyhow, right now, it's just in draft form -- to get my ideas out there on paper. It can constantly be improved, but right now it's basically just a simple template of writing.

I've been working on these ideas in my mind for the better of 7 years, so it's really delightfully easy to write on paper, it just "flows" (I've written the meat portion of it in a little over 3 weeks). But it very much suffers from the "debate podium" aspect at times and does a "disservice to me" that you warn against. I want to eliminate that entirely, but I struggle with how to get interesting concepts out there while appearing neutral.

Your words definitely set me up to improve upon it in the next iteration.

As for the "interesting psychological reasons" Long story, but I had a bad attack of OCD, anxiety, and, apparently, it morphed into mania... all triggered by my discovery of the "mystical domain" (or maybe, it's the chicken and the egg kind of thing, and my psychology brought about the ideas rather than the reverse?). I'm perpetually worried that I'm psychotic.

So, I'm trying to pace myself to release information in a way that's healthy for me. Life's interesting... I actually liked the mania, and it inspired the writing, but now that I've gone back to baseline, I complain that my writing is no longer as "interesting". LOL! We will see.


--------------------
Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28212479 - 03/03/23 12:41 PM (10 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
Wow... Lithop, I read your post and absolutely LOVE it. I will definitely take it to heart as a write about this Book. I'll make sure to let you know the chapter titles soon. Anyhow, right now, it's just in draft form -- to get my ideas out there on paper. It can constantly be improved, but right now it's basically just a simple template of writing.

I've been working on these ideas in my mind for the better of 7 years, so it's really delightfully easy to write on paper, it just "flows" (I've written the meat portion of it in a little over 3 weeks). But it very much suffers from the "debate podium" aspect at times and does a "disservice to me" that you warn against. I want to eliminate that entirely, but I struggle with how to get interesting concepts out there while appearing neutral.

Your words definitely set me up to improve upon it in the next iteration.

As for the "interesting psychological reasons" Long story, but I had a bad attack of OCD, anxiety, and, apparently, it morphed into mania... all triggered by my discovery of the "mystical domain" (or maybe, it's the chicken and the egg kind of thing, and my psychology brought about the ideas rather than the reverse?). I'm perpetually worried that I'm psychotic.

So, I'm trying to pace myself to release information in a way that's healthy for me. Life's interesting... I actually liked the mania, and it inspired the writing, but now that I've gone back to baseline, I complain that my writing is no longer as "interesting". LOL! We will see.




(Just a quick response here dude, then I'll pop the other half of the first bit I'd typed up away from my computer earlier.)


First of all, you seem like a cool, interesting & thoughtful person, I'm happy to be discussing all this with you, so thanks!
I'm glad you got something of use from that other post.

I worried it may have been something like that, mental circumstance wise.

I'm sorry to hear things came to a head with the OCD and anxiety, the whole lot.
Something that would make me feel an urge to wake people up to a better way of thinking/acting it would be seeing the mental ramifications that existing in a society that isn't designed for you can have on people who just want to share love and enjoy life, so I get you there.

It's fucking rotten and explains your stance better, let me apologise lightly again for any of my shit that comes across as overly-cheeky or testing to your view point. (not as some sympathy BS, I hope you understand)

I just didn't want to see someone else be "that guy" who proclaims wonderous stuff after a psychedelic or mystical experience and ends up all the more hurt for it.

Life IS interesting!
The buzz of (hypo/)mania 'serve' so many creatives, but if you're trying to create something objective (not art or stuff like that) and can't trust perspective on the stimuli that's coming in the you have a real shaky base to build from. Keep it in mind, please.

DEFINITELY pace yourself, DEFINITELY try to eliminate the podium-esque vibe, DEFINITELY take breaks from the project to allow it's maturity to be true, DEFINITELY hit me up for any help on the project and, in time, I will do what I can to assist you..:thumbup:

Right, here's ya second half from earlier!



Quote:

solarshroomster said:
Yep, I agree. The Message is in Life itself, which is probably the only way to linguistically get out the Mystical Truth.

With that saiiiiidddd..., I still think humans can make more of an effective attempt at pointing things out. Don't you think our dialogues would benefit the world to see? Personally, I like contributing to this discussion mostly, because I hope it leads someone who was in my position to go "shit, maybe there is something to the mystical I didn't appreciate before". You realize that you and I are talking about the mystical domain and debating very specific minutiae that suggests we've seen similar things, granting a little objectivity to what some thought was just a BS delusion?




:yesnod: To the first bit.

Whilst the idea of someone being helped by my input is undeniably attractive, I really can't say that I feel this type of dialogue gives real benefit to an outside reader.

I kind of feel, if all someone needs to be fully swayed toward appreciating/integrating a more spiritual/mystical viewpoint in their life, then there are already A LOT of invaluable writing and discourses- all the way from the major texts, to podcast conversations- out there which do it far better than I could hope to.

I'm not sure if I'm following when you talk about the specific minitiae?
In my view, leaving people to unfold/discover at their own pace and trying to accelerate the process with influence are actually very different things.

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
You admit: "Although I acknowledge that the popular lean toward belittling, baselessly discrediting or otherwise ridiculing others for their 'wacky' beliefs is fucking gross and shouldn't be as readily accepted". To me, the operative word here "popular lean".

Indeed, it has become popular. Witness the constant "genius" adulation of Neil deGrasse Tyson on TV to the wonders of science and how we are to look at the cosmos and see the stars, and feel ourselves like a piece of meat separate from it. Witness his constant dismissals of UFO experiences, because, you know, well... empiricism hasn't pinned that phenomenon down yet, and it doesn't quite fit well into the orthodox worldview. It should not be surprising that people, once they've forgotten their mystical Home, are compelled to do what I did: focus on the material world of accumulative wealth. It's not a good philosophy, and it's leading to our own apocalypse, as well as the degradation of nature. So, yes, I feel a correction towards the right path needs to be pointed out by a Messenger. The fact that you call this spiritual disenchantment the "popular lean" is what absolutely needs correcting, and, while I think there's nobility in being a pacificist, I also think it's cowardly to just sit in a corner and not get ideas out there that might inspire a global awakening.




See, although I agreed with most of that paragraph- it went to how it was "..cowardly to not get ideas out that might inspire a global awakening."
It seems to imply a sense of urgency in all of this, which I personally don't really feel, so struggle to relate to.

Plus many, myself included, take a decent amount of comfort that I'm a piece of seperate meat because often experiencing the alternative can feel sketchy/unsettling.
I wouldn't like it as my day to day at the minute, put it that way.

A 'global awakening' would much more likely start to roll out in drips and drabs before coming together a la emergence, as opposed to some instantaneous shift inspired by MORE people positing their truth over the old truth.


Quote:

solarshroomster said:
I love your analogy about the train-head and the passengers. Here's my thoughts on it: some of the passengers are having a good time, but, if our society is any indication, many of them are suffering from anxiety, despair, and boredom. Perhaps it's because they don't know how beautiful their trainride is? For those who are hypnotized (not a bad thing!) into liking not knowing and just going about their day, fine! But, I think when you look at society, we are in total spiritual despair. The increase in technology and material wealth, without an understanding of the metaphysical dimension, is, unsurprisingly, not bringing about the expected increase in net happiness. A new model is needed.




Good. Fucking. Point.

This 'new model of happiness' is pretty much the basis for Charles Eisensteins book "The more beautiful world our hearts know is possible" and is, predictably, carnage to try and actually define, let alone set into motion.

It all comes back round to free will, individual path/karma whathaveyou.

Just as with most chemical addictions, people pretty much have to come to the decision to 'quit' (in this case quitting their old story of limition to experience the wonder available in the world around them) on their own- or the change often won't last.



Quote:

solarshroomster said:
Lastly, and more important to my point - you say that the existence of something beyond the material is "just based off experience and instinct" and then dump on yourself "even I've had enough of my... "great mystical thoughts" (stoned ramblings of a young acid-casuality who got MK Ultra'd off Ram Dass podcasts? :lol::rolleyes: plus the amount of weed and shrooms you need to keep 'em coming in? Fuggedabbatit."

Perhaps that's the issue. Society has made YOU feel stupid for feeling differently from the "popular lean". I'm of the view that your visions on weed and shrooms may actually mean something to Reality. Disregarding one state of consciousness to uphold the delusions of the other is unacceptable, in my mind. Maybe I'm taking you too seriously, but, based on your self-deprecation, I get the impression that you feel obligated to feel guilty because you have different views from the delusional "consensus reality". I think that those in the "consensus reality" should feel obligated to listen to you a little bit more, open their minds, and stop making you feel guilty.




Yeah that was definitely a weird thing to say on my end there:lol:

It actually speaks a lot more to MY state of mind that I percieved what you said RE "great mystical thoughts" as sarcastic/an attack (in a thread where I lecture YOU on versus mentality... Oooh boy the irony Police are enroute :lol: ) so then had to 'get ahead of it' by attacking myself...

Perhaps, yeah, you took me a LITTLE too serious.
BUT I stand by the instinct and experience statement AND MK Ultra'd as a verb.
You actually got it spot on with the obligation stuff, I'm packed up with residual Catholic guilt and it often eminates from me like cartoon stink-lines. I'm working on it.

I appreciate your sentiment in this paragraph, I have definitely felt unheard many, many times in my life but luckily I think that it has ultimately been for my benefit.
Now I go out of my way to make sure people feel heard, which is better for me and them, and now I try to actually listen. Definitely used to just be waiting on my turn to spout bullshit.

Be careful about branding the whole of consensus reality as 'delusional' though, or you may inadvertantly alientate a lot of people who would otherwise potentially be receptive to the message you want to spread.


Quote:

solarshroomster said:
As for my background, it's similar to yours, but only the character titles have changed. Instead of it being "Orthodox Religion", it was "Orthodox Scientism" insisting to me that believing in anything that feels Good is "biased", I'm just seeking a "security blanket", and on and on they go. Stephen Hawkings, no doubt a genius, who I was led to admire once opined that the "afterlife was for those afraid of the dark". Think about that for a second, this guy's a genius, and he knows full well that, even under his belief system, that the experience of seeing dark after you die is a "no go" (I suspect he believes there's no experience at all, so this would preclude "seeing"). But, he throws out some meat for the scientistic masses to digest, and on and on we go with trying to make everything that has the semblance of spirituality sound stupid. Science is the real truth!, they say (except, it's only a scientific method, and can't capture the full truth). And then there's the dogmatic religious fundamentalists on the other side, as well as the pop "feel good" spiritual artist / bullshitters who don't contribute to instilling a lot of confidence in me about the existence of the mystical domain. That needs to change, and I don't care if it entails someone screaming out "ITEM 9 EXISTS! IT IS THE BEES KNEES!" Maybe, we need more of that to disrupt our normal way of linear thought. Maybe we should stop with the bigoted dismissals of the stoned and those who think differently.




Thanks for the insight to your position in all of this man.

Disrupting normal, linear thought has a time and a place though.
Aside from all the problems that exist & changes that ought to be made, there are huge amounts of societal structure, technological implementation, Scientific advancements, Religious worships so on so on that actually serve many people in their lives, all without ever straying far if at all from linear thinking.
That's important to acknowledge.

I have a major chip on my shoulder about activism, as I've experienced it anyway, it generally makes me cringe.
I'd rather quietly get on with shit in the real world unless I percieve theres no choice.
That probably goes some way toward my attitude on "ITEM 9!"-ism and why I even used such a comedic reference in the first place.


Quote:

solarshroomster said:
So, honestly, the people who bullied you are the same people who bullied me, they've just been given different names. At the end of the day, spiritual reality has held itself true in my experience, and now I feel obligated, yes, to get that word out, because it's being drowned out by the inundation of spiritual disenchantment. I'm realistic on the limits of what I can likely achieve, but to not make an attempt would be incredibly cowardly.





Meh, I was nicely acclimatised and desensitised to bullying, jealousy, being a weirdo whatever you wanna say LONG before I found myself a spiritual path again haha
So luckily it didn't hurt to have to confront any of those things again- which, important to say, I rarely did- outside of situations where I should have seen it coming. People generally don't give a fuck about my beliefs, don't ask don't tell. That's fine by me, for the most part.

Spiritual Reality holding itsself true is the take-away here for me, man.
Nourish that which serves you. :yesnod:
But maybe look into where exactly the 'obligation' stems from.


I look forward to seeing how this all pans out for you, solarshroomster, it's an interesting concept for a book, series of posts/threads, whatever direction you decide to take it.

Shoot me a message if you need any assistance with shit for it, need proof-reading (although you've seen my posts so BEWARE :lol:) or just want some perspective on a certain part :thumbup:
Oh and please try to stop with the 'coward' stuff! :peace:

Cheers!


--------------------


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: solarshroomster] * 2
    #28212539 - 03/03/23 01:28 PM (10 months, 20 days ago)

"There's a whole lot more out there than even the most die-hard believers could possibly fathom. The truth is that we - and by 'we' I mean this planet and the people of this planet - are in essence blind to what is really going on in the cosmos and in outer space." - Smooth Genestar, Dimensions

"The states of awareness we currently perceive are only a tiny fraction of the whole. The continuum extends deep into nonphysical areas of the universe, far beyond our current physical comprehension." - William Buhlman

"There's no such thing as chance; and what seem to us merest accident, springs from the deepest source of destiny." - Friedrich Schiller

"All of nature is but Art, unknown to thee; all chance, direction, which thou cans't not see." - Alexander Pope

"If nature is divine artifice, as religious faith supposes, then nature is of a kind with technology." - Star Larvae

"Art is man's nature; nature is God's art." - Philip James Bailey


--------------------
Penny: 'What are you and Professor FussyFace up to tonight?'
Leonard: "Star Wars on Blu-ray."
Penny: 'Haven't you seen that movie like, a thousand times?'
Leonard: "Not on Blu-ray. Only twice on Blu-ray."
Penny: 'Oh, Leonard...'
Leonard: "I know. It's high-resolution sadness."
- The Big Bang Theory, S07E09


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: doolhoofd] * 1
    #28212631 - 03/03/23 03:02 PM (10 months, 20 days ago)

Nice premises for arguments. šŸ‘


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28212713 - 03/03/23 04:01 PM (10 months, 20 days ago)

Just learned the word heterodoxy today. Interesting concept. Weird how you just come across things when wandering.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #28212768 - 03/03/23 04:24 PM (10 months, 20 days ago)

The thrill of watching a magician lift a rabbit out of his hat = the thrill of the unexpected or heterodoxy.


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28212795 - 03/03/23 04:36 PM (10 months, 20 days ago)

Ah. Well said for the thrill seeker and the spiritual seeker alike. Quite delicately balanced :thumbup:


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: doolhoofd] * 1
    #28213557 - 03/04/23 05:42 AM (10 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

doolhoofd said:
"There's a whole lot more out there than even the most die-hard believers could possibly fathom. The truth is that we - and by 'we' I mean this planet and the people of this planet - are in essence blind to what is really going on in the cosmos and in outer space." - Smooth Genestar, Dimensions

"The states of awareness we currently perceive are only a tiny fraction of the whole. The continuum extends deep into nonphysical areas of the universe, far beyond our current physical comprehension." - William Buhlman

"There's no such thing as chance; and what seem to us merest accident, springs from the deepest source of destiny." - Friedrich Schiller

"All of nature is but Art, unknown to thee; all chance, direction, which thou cans't not see." - Alexander Pope

"If nature is divine artifice, as religious faith supposes, then nature is of a kind with technology." - Star Larvae

"Art is man's nature; nature is God's art." - Philip James Bailey




Amazing quotes :awesomenod:


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Lithop] * 1
    #28214542 - 03/04/23 05:24 PM (10 months, 19 days ago)

Thanks all! These are some great ideas. Lithop, I'll post the table of contents here soon and DM you for your thoughts on certain chapters. I have 17 chapters in total, completed all of them. Each chapter has a more scholarly section, accompanied by a parable/short story and an art with a short description (still working on those). The point is to illustrate the Message in different ways for different readers. Really though, they all communicate the same basic idea, and the whole purpose is to empower the Experiencer Reader to explore his/her own own Imagination and feel a sense of Wonder on existence.


--------------------
Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


Edited by solarshroomster (03/04/23 05:24 PM)


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: solarshroomster] * 1
    #28215271 - 03/05/23 02:42 AM (10 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
Lithop, I'll post the table of contents here soon and DM you for your thoughts on certain chapters. I have 17 chapters in total, completed all of them.




Nice one, thanks.:thumbup:


Quote:

solarshroomster said:
Each chapter has a more scholarly section, accompanied by a parable/short story and an art with a short description (still working on those).
The point is to illustrate the Message in different ways for different readers. Really though, they all communicate the same basic idea, and the whole purpose is to empower the Experiencer Reader to explore his/her own own Imagination and feel a sense of Wonder on existence.



:awesomenod:
Sounds really good, structure wise.
And the bit in bold makes me excited to see what you have so far- I think that base idea is the powerful/exciting aspect of your project! (to my tastes)

Cheers!


--------------------


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28220775 - 03/08/23 01:26 PM (10 months, 15 days ago)

For OP-
Read the Kybalion.  I am not a hermeticist, but it is a quick read that relates at least one fundamental principle, which is that All is mind, and all of differentiated existence is part of the All.    Obviously for the All to have a differentiated experience, it has to limit itself and its understanding.  If you are God, in unified Oneness, and you want to experience the feelings of innocent love, you will have to limit your knowledge of evolutionary psychology, biological sexual concepts, ect to fully immerse yourself in that moment in a differentiated avatar as a young man or woman together with their beloved, and experience those feelings without knowledge of the biological or social mechanics behind them.  The knowledge would destroy the magic.  Same as experiencing the purity of a hungry lion on the hunt, a scientist discovering some concept for the first time, ect.  It all depends on the initial restriction of knowledge that would make the pursuit seem pointless or shallow were that knowledge already known.    There is a reason why people have a limited understanding of certain things.  A few start with that limit so that they can experience growth, most have that limit so that they can experience something that requires that limitation.    Many here now are experiencing what a nihilistic, materialist existence is like, and all that goes along with that.  They chose to do that before differentiating into avatar here.  You can write your guidebook and it might be great to educate those who are here partially to discover and grow in knowledge, but it wont touch those that aren’t supposed to have that knowledge this time around.  People are unable to see knowledge that doesn’t benefit them or their purpose.  This is why the old adage of casting pearls before swine exists.  Trying to educate those that dont want to be educated on a topic will not be fruitful, and they will actually fight you to maintain their illusions.  That is just part of the game.  It is no different than telling a young boy in love about why he loves from a biological or materialist perspective, or telling a lion lusting for meat that his hunger is meaningless.  They will tear you apart for interrupting the purity of their ideal and pursuit.  So dont get too down about the ignorance of other people.  If they were fully enlightened, they would no longer be physical beings.  This is what is meant by ā€œno one who sees God’s face can remain alive.ā€    The veil is required in varying degrees for the differentiated experiences of this world.


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28221047 - 03/08/23 04:05 PM (10 months, 15 days ago)

"People get unbelievably upset when you poke them in the axioms, so to speak." - Peterson


--------------------
Penny: 'What are you and Professor FussyFace up to tonight?'
Leonard: "Star Wars on Blu-ray."
Penny: 'Haven't you seen that movie like, a thousand times?'
Leonard: "Not on Blu-ray. Only twice on Blu-ray."
Penny: 'Oh, Leonard...'
Leonard: "I know. It's high-resolution sadness."
- The Big Bang Theory, S07E09


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Beluga]
    #28221065 - 03/08/23 04:17 PM (10 months, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Beluga said:
If they were fully enlightened, they would no longer be physical beings. This is what is meant by ā€œno one who sees God’s face can remain alive.ā€    The veil is required in varying degrees for the differentiated experiences of this world.




Oh? How do you know this?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineBeluga
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Kickle]
    #28221116 - 03/08/23 04:52 PM (10 months, 15 days ago)

You are being lazy and not taking the time and thought to understand what I said.  When you do, and you have a rebuttal, then by all means make a counter argument.


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Beluga]
    #28221132 - 03/08/23 05:03 PM (10 months, 15 days ago)

I was seeking more understanding. Hence questions. You don't have to answer.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Kickle]
    #28221153 - 03/08/23 05:18 PM (10 months, 15 days ago)

I’ll give you a place to start.  Imagine you are God, the All consciousness, alone in the void.  Nothing exists outside of your consciousness.  You contain all potentials, all things.    Now imagine you want to experience loving another being.  There is nothing outside of you though.  Not even any potential that exists outside of your mind.  Try to imagine how you would go about making that experience of loving another happen in those circumstances,  without employing differentiation and limitation.  You can try to do this for any experience, or for taking the role of any individuated, unique conscious being in a physical world that contains other unique beings.    I think it is self evident that it can’t be done.

When people take psychedelics at high doses, they often experience the limits of their consciousness and intelligence falling away, in parallel with the loss of their individuality and differentiation.  Their knowledge expands to infinity, even time ceases to limit the mind, and eventually they end up at the Godhead-knowing all, being all, with no individuality separate from anything else.  This is the classic ego death that is so often referenced but seldom experienced by psychonauts and other mystics of various traditions, from Kabbalistic Judaism, to Sufi Islam, to Buddhist meditation.  Coming back into physicality and the body involves the opposite process, including the reimposition of the limitation to cognize what one was able to know and experience in the mystical/ psychedelic state.  All that is left are vague impressions.  The reason you felt like you had all knowledge is because you did.  You were reunified with the All-Consciousness.  The reason you can’t bring it back is because you are a differentiated being, limited and separate, so that you can have a life spent interacting with other differentiated and limited beings and environments, all of which are ultimately the same thing when the veil is lifted.  All of creation is composed in its entirety by the same entity playing games with itself.  As long as you are here though, separate physically and mentally from other aspects of the All, you cannot possess All-knowledge.  It has been separated, divided and limited in different ways, infused in different measure in different aspects of the creation.  Which is ultimately just a dream in the mind of the All.  Go back to the first paragraph and start as God.  Imagine you are him, and try to figure out what it would be like to create a world in your mind and live in it.  Because that’s exactly what you really are, and exactly what you really did.


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Kickle]
    #28221169 - 03/08/23 05:26 PM (10 months, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I was seeking more understanding. Hence questions. You don't have to answer.




And sorry, I did not mean to be antagonistic.  I thought you were just arrogantly dismissing what I was trying to share without contributing anything or legitimately debating anything.


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Beluga]
    #28221181 - 03/08/23 05:33 PM (10 months, 15 days ago)

I've read everything you've written and my takeaway is that you, as an individual, view your experiences to have the meaning you've written out.

I get the impression that you think you've met God and brought the knowledge of God back with you. That you are speaking from a godly POV.

I think that's cool :thumbup:

Not really too relevant to me if I'm being honest. And that's just to say what can I possibly add to someone who's already realized they got it all? I'm worthless to you in such a case and that's OK. I appreciate you sharing. :heart:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Kickle]
    #28221190 - 03/08/23 05:40 PM (10 months, 15 days ago)

I’m just sharing one perspective that I am quite certain is not the full truth.  I do think I understand more than most, but of course less than some, and very little in the overall picture.  My manner of discussion is to present an argument, and see if people can poke holes in it.  I have a scientific background and that is how understandings are advanced in my tradition.  Present an argument, or an idea, and then see if it can withstand debate.  It is not to express the arrogant assertion that I ā€œknow God.ā€


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Beluga]
    #28221194 - 03/08/23 05:44 PM (10 months, 15 days ago)

Well if you want debate step one forum up. The Philosophy, Sociology and Psychology forum is built just for that reason. This one is the softer discussion one.

I think the first debatable point would be the concept of unity/oneness/all/God. As a concept, one can debate the merit of it.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Kickle]
    #28221213 - 03/08/23 05:59 PM (10 months, 15 days ago)

I dont know friend.  Some might argue that the truths of the spiritual are harsher than those of this world.  Or equally so anyway.  As above, so below.  And why are we here if not to advance our knowledge of all that is, and our place within it?  That would presuppose that at least some of that knowledge can be ascertained and advanced does it not?  And if so, what better way to figure out what is true and what isnt than to have some debate using logic, philosophy, and if possible, experimental methods?  Many religions have strong traditions of debate.  Most of Orthodox Judaism for example is built on it.    See the Mishnah for example.  I think that one of the cultural shifts that is on the horizon is going to be the attempt to integrate spiritual understandings of consciousness into physics and biology.  That wont happen however, and that potentially very fruitful field of endeavor will continue to lie dormant, until those who dispute materialism are able to debate their ideas and win in an open forum.  That is also how they will crystallize their own knowledge.  If you want to increase understanding in any field, you have to be able to work at it and deal with some difficulties.  Gaining knowledge is not cheap or easy.


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Beluga]
    #28221223 - 03/08/23 06:04 PM (10 months, 15 days ago)

Well I post in the debate forum more than here because i like debate. But it's not for everyone. That's why this forum exists. The two forums were one, way back when. But enough people wanted a split that it happened. And now there are forums with different rules.

If you want a forum that supports debate you know where to go. Otherwise you're subject to the rules of this forum just like anyone else.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Beluga]
    #28221385 - 03/08/23 07:20 PM (10 months, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Beluga said:
For OP-
Read the Kybalion.  I am not a hermeticist, but it is a quick read that relates at least one fundamental principle, which is that All is mind, and all of differentiated existence is part of the All.    Obviously for the All to have a differentiated experience, it has to limit itself and its understanding.  If you are God, in unified Oneness, and you want to experience the feelings of innocent love, you will have to limit your knowledge of evolutionary psychology, biological sexual concepts, ect to fully immerse yourself in that moment in a differentiated avatar as a young man or woman together with their beloved, and experience those feelings without knowledge of the biological or social mechanics behind them.  The knowledge would destroy the magic.  Same as experiencing the purity of a hungry lion on the hunt, a scientist discovering some concept for the first time, ect.  It all depends on the initial restriction of knowledge that would make the pursuit seem pointless or shallow were that knowledge already known.    There is a reason why people have a limited understanding of certain things.  A few start with that limit so that they can experience growth, most have that limit so that they can experience something that requires that limitation.    Many here now are experiencing what a nihilistic, materialist existence is like, and all that goes along with that.  They chose to do that before differentiating into avatar here.  You can write your guidebook and it might be great to educate those who are here partially to discover and grow in knowledge, but it wont touch those that aren’t supposed to have that knowledge this time around.  People are unable to see knowledge that doesn’t benefit them or their purpose.  This is why the old adage of casting pearls before swine exists.  Trying to educate those that dont want to be educated on a topic will not be fruitful, and they will actually fight you to maintain their illusions.  That is just part of the game.  It is no different than telling a young boy in love about why he loves from a biological or materialist perspective, or telling a lion lusting for meat that his hunger is meaningless.  They will tear you apart for interrupting the purity of their ideal and pursuit.  So dont get too down about the ignorance of other people.  If they were fully enlightened, they would no longer be physical beings.  This is what is meant by ā€œno one who sees God’s face can remain alive.ā€    The veil is required in varying degrees for the differentiated experiences of this world.




This is really helpful, and what you're talking about with the One differentiating is quite closely to what the Vision instilled in me independently of confirmation from anyone else. I think there's some interpretive nuance that's a little different... but interpretation, in my view, is more of a petty issue. What's not petty, however, is that the mystical domain exists.

To be honest, the "Philosophy" forum that allows for "debates" is, I think, part of what confused me. There should be debates about the specifics, but where I think I'm heading towards is something I never even considered: the mystical domain exists, and the weight of evidence is undeniable. The fact that there are debates about the nuance actually confused me into thinking people are "blowing hot air" up each other, when in actuality, it may be some of that--but it may also be that people have moved on from the fact the mystical domain exists and are now talking about the nitty gritty.

For me, personally, I really can't move on from this concept. The existence of the mystical domain itself to me is more important than any individual interpretation of "what it means" or "what the specifics are". Frankly, it can be just an astounding delusion that science hasn't explained, and it would still be interesting. The fact that "this shit" is real has me totally stunned and, unquestionably, the biggest shocker in my life. To be honest, it's so against the worldview I grew up, I don't think I will ever accept it.

A lot of people talk about the mystical from the standpoint of assuming it is a "given", whereas, I'm not sure it's a given based on the environment I was raised in or myself (again, not sure who's to blame). This sets me up for repeated cognitive dissonance. It's like banging my head against the wall and hoping it will stop.


--------------------
Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


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OfflineBeluga
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: solarshroomster] * 1
    #28221543 - 03/08/23 10:04 PM (10 months, 15 days ago)

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
Quote:

Beluga said:
For OP-
Read the Kybalion.  I am not a hermeticist, but it is a quick read that relates at least one fundamental principle, which is that All is mind, and all of differentiated existence is part of the All.    Obviously for the All to have a differentiated experience, it has to limit itself and its understanding.  If you are God, in unified Oneness, and you want to experience the feelings of innocent love, you will have to limit your knowledge of evolutionary psychology, biological sexual concepts, ect to fully immerse yourself in that moment in a differentiated avatar as a young man or woman together with their beloved, and experience those feelings without knowledge of the biological or social mechanics behind them.  The knowledge would destroy the magic.  Same as experiencing the purity of a hungry lion on the hunt, a scientist discovering some concept for the first time, ect.  It all depends on the initial restriction of knowledge that would make the pursuit seem pointless or shallow were that knowledge already known.    There is a reason why people have a limited understanding of certain things.  A few start with that limit so that they can experience growth, most have that limit so that they can experience something that requires that limitation.    Many here now are experiencing what a nihilistic, materialist existence is like, and all that goes along with that.  They chose to do that before differentiating into avatar here.  You can write your guidebook and it might be great to educate those who are here partially to discover and grow in knowledge, but it wont touch those that aren’t supposed to have that knowledge this time around.  People are unable to see knowledge that doesn’t benefit them or their purpose.  This is why the old adage of casting pearls before swine exists.  Trying to educate those that dont want to be educated on a topic will not be fruitful, and they will actually fight you to maintain their illusions.  That is just part of the game.  It is no different than telling a young boy in love about why he loves from a biological or materialist perspective, or telling a lion lusting for meat that his hunger is meaningless.  They will tear you apart for interrupting the purity of their ideal and pursuit.  So dont get too down about the ignorance of other people.  If they were fully enlightened, they would no longer be physical beings.  This is what is meant by ā€œno one who sees God’s face can remain alive.ā€    The veil is required in varying degrees for the differentiated experiences of this world.




This is really helpful, and what you're talking about with the One differentiating is quite closely to what the Vision instilled in me independently of confirmation from anyone else. I think there's some interpretive nuance that's a little different... but interpretation, in my view, is more of a petty issue. What's not petty, however, is that the mystical domain exists.

To be honest, the "Philosophy" forum that allows for "debates" is, I think, part of what confused me. There should be debates about the specifics, but where I think I'm heading towards is something I never even considered: the mystical domain exists, and the weight of evidence is undeniable. The fact that there are debates about the nuance actually confused me into thinking people are "blowing hot air" up each other, when in actuality, it may be some of that--but it may also be that people have moved on from the fact the mystical domain exists and are now talking about the nitty gritty.

For me, personally, I really can't move on from this concept. The existence of the mystical domain itself to me is more important than any individual interpretation of "what it means" or "what the specifics are". Frankly, it can be just an astounding delusion that science hasn't explained, and it would still be interesting. The fact that "this shit" is real has me totally stunned and, unquestionably, the biggest shocker in my life. To be honest, it's so against the worldview I grew up, I don't think I will ever accept it.

A lot of people talk about the mystical from the standpoint of assuming it is a "given", whereas, I'm not sure it's a given based on the environment I was raised in or myself (again, not sure who's to blame). This sets me up for repeated cognitive dissonance. It's like banging my head against the wall and hoping it will stop.




I hear you.  I was raised mostly atheist, with some mild religious exposure.  Went through rigorous materialist science training as well with lots and lots of schooling.  I was pretty much an established nihilist agnostic with a strongly atheist bent before I made it to high school though, my further studies just ingrained it further.  Some traumatic experiences then occurred in my life however, which no longer allowed me to continue to pursue the power seeking that I had substituted for meaning.  I wanted to commit suicide for years, but felt I couldn’t due to my parents.  So in order to stay alive, I soaked up all I could in an effort to convince myself that the spiritual world existed, and that I might find some meaning for my suffering that would transcend this lifetime.  Comparative religion, Nde literature, holocaust studies, reincarnation research, ect.  None of it though ever really convinced me, and it was more like escapism and a temporary suspension of disbelief than a real solution.  It was only through the direct experience of psychedelics, mainly high dose mushrooms, that I really started to believe more than not that the spiritual was real, and that our consciousness was not just an emergent and accidental byproduct of our physical brains.  It was an amazing revelation for me as well, and by far the most important and belief shattering aspect was simply going from decades of nearly certain non-belief, to direct experience of which the most probable explanation was for me, the existence of a genuine spiritual reality.  Since that time however, as the novelty of that has worn off, I have become more interested in the particulars.  The survival of some personal consciousness after death, the individual retention of earned wisdom and experience for use in further lives, whether this world is the best possible world and if so can it be improved, ect. Ect.    Because ultimately, while the spiritual is a remarkable thing to come to accept, it does not necessarily mean that it is ā€œbetterā€ than the material, or offers more meaning.  It seems to, but that depends.  Anyway, I am sure with time you will get over your initial shock, especially if you do a few high dose shroom trips, and will want to dig deeper, as you seem to already be doing.  All the best in your journey and good luck with your book.


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Beluga]
    #28221806 - 03/09/23 06:03 AM (10 months, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Beluga said:
Because ultimately, while the spiritual is a remarkable thing to come to accept, it does not necessarily mean that it is ā€œbetterā€ than the material, or offers more meaning.  It seems to, but that depends..




:yesnod: nor does it have to be viewed as strictly seperate to the material, IMO.


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Lithop]
    #28224738 - 03/11/23 06:46 AM (10 months, 13 days ago)

Thanks everyone for their words. I'm sorry, but I really can't get over how I feel misled. Let me explain a little bit more, I've had synchronicities increase in my life at a rate that was absolutely unprecedented relative to the probabilistic means at which they occurred for the first 30 years of my life. This was accompanied by ineffable Visions. I'm not sure how I am to take this from a mystical perspective?

I do feel I was left somewhat unprepared for this, and it's a rude awakening. I would just be lying if I didn't say I felt lied to, by either myself or other people (again, placing blame is not important - but I think I rightfully feel frustrated). I rejected mystical phenomena all my life (you can go back 7 years from now to see my posts, where I still was clearly grappling with whether this was actually a real thing. Even as I asserted it, the general tone is one that is still clearly in disbelief and still deeply skeptical inside). Shit, I'm still skeptical... like, how was this kept so hidden my entire life? It no doubt represents the greatest shocker of my life, a complete 180 from pseudo-skeptic to faithful believer.

How do you recommend I go forward with my life with the knowledge that I have now? Did you go through similar "awakenings"?


--------------------
Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28224792 - 03/11/23 07:52 AM (10 months, 12 days ago)



Multiple personalities...I could assign one to the subject of my displeasures while the others go simultaneously where their hearts lead them. Something to look forward to.


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28224803 - 03/11/23 08:07 AM (10 months, 12 days ago)

^ Yes, and I think it is largely around wounding, the reaction of opposition I mean, our sensitivities - like for me, being cut off from expressing as a kid around bigger kids, neglectful parents, etc. It's no one's fault. I in turn became a bit of bully for a while when I had the chance, a stupid thing not knowing how else to vent the hurt.

Now as an adult, seeing my reaction to such things was valuable - when we share our favorite verse with emotion wide open and not considering at all that a turd will be plopped on it. To see my reaction was more than worth it. Though not doing the self-reflection justice, I'd say it wakes up the bullied, neglected child so to say, to see that it is no longer the case.

I think you say this as well but on this subject I've been thinking that those other views, scientific, etc., have their place and are respectable and rewarding. I can try to temporarily give up my view if necessary to further understand theirs and interact some in that because it is profitable intellectually and socially. If they have no bad intentions it can only add to us and more in the sum of the parts. No one is stopping a free adult from pursuing their inclinations, first amendment and all. The most important person to convince is oneself, and that with others is taken care of.

Not that you shouldn't write and express about it, but don't hold the resentments. (easy to say) That's about us.


Edited by syncro (03/11/23 08:08 AM)


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: solarshroomster] * 1
    #28224806 - 03/11/23 08:11 AM (10 months, 12 days ago)

How do you recommend I go forward with my life with the knowledge that I have now? Did you go through similar "awakenings"?

My advice? Learn the art of forgetting/unknowing

If you knew what to expect before and that worldly knowledge was mistaken, does it make sense to rebuild on knowledge once more? We all need grounding, but knowledge does not need to be the ground. It is shaky ground at best and liable to completely fall out from under you at worst.

I like Buddhism for alternative views on grounding. But if Christianity is a more familiar flavor, The Cloud of Unknowing is great IMO


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Kickle]
    #28224814 - 03/11/23 08:28 AM (10 months, 12 days ago)

I prefer the dollhouse approach, a story invented in the mind to identify the action and the characters.


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28224824 - 03/11/23 08:36 AM (10 months, 12 days ago)

All of this is great advice. Thank you! Buster, could you please say more about the "dollhouse approach"? What is that? I had a revelation once about a dollhouse when I was in pre-K.


--------------------
Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #28224827 - 03/11/23 08:38 AM (10 months, 12 days ago)

Storytellers are a rare breed but I think quite important. I smile to think of that skill when paired with compassion and wisdom. :smile:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Buster_Brown] * 2
    #28224895 - 03/11/23 09:38 AM (10 months, 12 days ago)

I recommend you laugh out loud and enjoy life's subtleties you might otherwise have missed. I mean, I would recommend that to myself, but from your experience only you will know what is right for you.

I can't remember who pointed this out to me:

If you consider electrical patterns from the eye of a frog show that some elements in the organ respond only when the stimulus is about the size of a fly moving in the insect’s range of speed.

Imagine if the frog was suddenly able to see things as we see them. It might be very enlightening for a frog. Imagine it becomes aware of the ecology of the swamp and the world around it. It might even become aware of land developers who might threaten the environment. All of these things it sees are real and some beautiful and some scary.

A frog in such a situation might be compelled to share its enlightenment with the other creatures of the swamp... but unfortunately it's hard to explain in frog-terms. There just aren't enough croaks to express these new ideas to the other creatures. But all that comes out is, croak croak croak. It doesn't mean any more to them than it does to you. The closest translation is, "OMG, I feel like a frog over here!". While that might have new meaning to the enlightened frog, to the other frogs and swamp creatures, it was the same thing they heard before.

And then the fact that this frog is now so enlightened it finds itself too busy trying to figure out life's meaning and can no longer catch flies. It's not that it doesn't see them, it just sees everything else too. It's overwhelming and difficult to be a frog and the important part of the swamp that it should be.

If you have become aware of other perspectives, the old one didn't lose relevance. If you're a frog, be a frog. If you're an enlightened frog, be an enlightened frog, but still a frog.


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28225107 - 03/11/23 12:50 PM (10 months, 12 days ago)

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
Buster, could you please say more about the "dollhouse approach"? What is that? I had a revelation once about a dollhouse when I was in pre-K.




The characters are all out to mold you into something they can use. Barbie is "never satisfied" according to the Prince song and Ken needs more elves to help keep things manageable and here you are making up stories about them and their relationships.


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28225247 - 03/11/23 03:02 PM (10 months, 12 days ago)

I sometimes think of stories linearly but not all are presented that way. But when they are, usually a 'seed' is planted and then the story unfolds from that seed. An astute listener will see that everything in the story was contained in that early seed.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Kickle]
    #28225275 - 03/11/23 03:15 PM (10 months, 12 days ago)

Yeah, we can take the seed of solarshroomster's condition and weave a tale around it. Anthropomorphically Barbie & Ken don't care to have many people peeking in to their lives, and solar shroomster is a latecomer and a spectacle to the rest of us as the tale unfolds.


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #28225303 - 03/11/23 03:35 PM (10 months, 12 days ago)

I'm a fan of spiders, not sure why, just always been around them in positive ways. Whether that was physically, or in other ways. They work hard, giving of themselves, and then they have this incredible patience. Very admirable. It's funny but I've associated them with a mother figure in a way. Go figure.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Kickle]
    #28225375 - 03/11/23 04:22 PM (10 months, 12 days ago)

Transhumanism - 8 appendages for getting things done, or perhaps that was a reference to Kali.


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28225394 - 03/11/23 04:41 PM (10 months, 12 days ago)

Yes in both cases for me. And a few other pre-existing mythical associations in the mix for me, as well as just straight mythic experience of the spider.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Kickle]
    #28225399 - 03/11/23 04:50 PM (10 months, 12 days ago)

Ah, I see you elves have an evolved perspective of the ruling body.


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28225423 - 03/11/23 05:07 PM (10 months, 12 days ago)

Buster, I'm a bit confused. Could you please say more around this:

Quote:

"Yeah, we can take the seed of solarshroomster's condition and weave a tale around it. Anthropomorphically Barbie & Ken don't care to have many people peeking in to their lives, and solar shroomster is a latecomer and a spectacle to the rest of us as the tale unfolds."





What does this mean? Are you saying Barbie & Ken somehow mold us, and we don't mold them? I don't fully understand the analogy. I agree with what Kickle says when he talks about not all lives are told in a "linear way", and, with you, that I am a "latecomer". I am a spectacle to my own self. I'm curious how on Earth I missed something so fundamental, and, honestly, that question perplexes me even more than the contents of the mystical domain itself. How didn't I hear about this? What did I do to miss the Message? I'm 30 years old, and it was just a gigantic shock. I mean, psychedelic experiences definitely felt like they were hinting at something a little too eerily well, but I didn't expect, like... it to be really real.

I feel like a massive plot twist was introduced my life. It's very unsettling.

I really think people need to do more to spread the word in a conducive way, because I would not have been a latecomer had this been articulated more clearly. Instead of talking about the Big Bang wrongly, for starters, it could have been clarified that we have to be ultimately all interconnected... Instead of talking about multiple selves, we could have talked about the Universal Self. Instead of putting us above Nature, why wasn't more said about how we are part of Nature? Where was any of this in my education? Instead of making me think of a material world, why couldn't some of science have been illustrated to show that we live in an abstract world? And on and on. In hindsight, it's right in my face... and I missed it.

I re-read the above posts, and they're helpful. Thank you all. It's just taking awhile.


--------------------
Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: solarshroomster] * 2
    #28225440 - 03/11/23 05:28 PM (10 months, 12 days ago)

If we came across a door with a sign saying "Abandon all hope ye who enter here" we wouldn't open it. We had our freedom to be unassociated with immortality and it's power structures, and now the "fear of God" is real and there's no way to tell anyone without them thinking you're daft.


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #28225729 - 03/11/23 09:29 PM (10 months, 12 days ago)

Stories are pretty amazing. And our relationship to then equally so, as that is a story within a story.

I know before I said storytellers are rare. And I think they are. But not because telling stories is uncommon. Rather it's rare to realize one's engagement in storytelling.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: hogswarm]
    #28225969 - 03/12/23 05:09 AM (10 months, 12 days ago)

Quote:

hogswarm said:
I recommend you laugh out loud and enjoy life's subtleties you might otherwise have missed. I mean, I would recommend that to myself, but from your experience only you will know what is right for you.

I can't remember who pointed this out to me:

If you consider electrical patterns from the eye of a frog show that some elements in the organ respond only when the stimulus is about the size of a fly moving in the insect’s range of speed.

Imagine if the frog was suddenly able to see things as we see them. It might be very enlightening for a frog. Imagine it becomes aware of the ecology of the swamp and the world around it. It might even become aware of land developers who might threaten the environment. All of these things it sees are real and some beautiful and some scary.

A frog in such a situation might be compelled to share its enlightenment with the other creatures of the swamp... but unfortunately it's hard to explain in frog-terms. There just aren't enough croaks to express these new ideas to the other creatures. But all that comes out is, croak croak croak. It doesn't mean any more to them than it does to you. The closest translation is, "OMG, I feel like a frog over here!". While that might have new meaning to the enlightened frog, to the other frogs and swamp creatures, it was the same thing they heard before.

And then the fact that this frog is now so enlightened it finds itself too busy trying to figure out life's meaning and can no longer catch flies. It's not that it doesn't see them, it just sees everything else too. It's overwhelming and difficult to be a frog and the important part of the swamp that it should be.

If you have become aware of other perspectives, the old one didn't lose relevance. If you're a frog, be a frog. If you're an enlightened frog, be an enlightened frog, but still a frog.




The bold, is gold.

In my view, this whole post is the best in the thread as far as acceptance goes.
Kudos on that explaination and advice, hogswarm.

Solar, I just can't bring myself to comprehend the urgency that you seem to be feeling around what is, ostensibly, something many experience.
I worry the urgency both, stems from- and feeds into- the destabilising effect on your psyche and ability to accept & enjoy your altered outlook at this time.

Enjoy seeing the swamp for what it 'is', but still kick back and catch some flies homie.


--------------------


šŸŒ¬ļø 🌻 āžžāžžāžž ā®ā®ā®ā® 🌈 ā¹ā‘¤ā“æ šŸŒ¬ļø 🌻 āžžāžžāžž ā®ā®ā®ā® 🌈 ā¹ā‘¤ā“æ  šŸŒ¬ļø 🌻 āžžāžžāžž ā®ā®ā®ā® 🌈 ā¹ā‘¤ā“æ


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Offlinesolarshroomster
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Lithop] * 1
    #28226038 - 03/12/23 07:33 AM (10 months, 12 days ago)

Thank you, great advice. That's what I'm doing more. Every time I encounter a "hint", I just laugh. How can I not? These were signs that were always in front of me, I just never had the glasses to properly see them.

Lithop - thank you for mentioning that many people experience this. I had no idea. It helps to make me not feel so alone.


--------------------
Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


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InvisibleLithop
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: solarshroomster] * 2
    #28226076 - 03/12/23 08:41 AM (10 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

solarshroomster said:
Thank you, great advice. That's what I'm doing more. Every time I encounter a "hint", I just laugh. How can I not? These were signs that were always in front of me, I just never had the glasses to properly see them.




Bingo, bango, bongo.
A healthy approach that I'm glad to hear you're open to applying in your day to day.



Quote:

solarshroomster said:
Lithop - thank you for mentioning that many people experience this. I had no idea. It helps to make me not feel so alone.



:thumbup:
Keep it in mind, you're only ever a few clicks away from tangible communication :nyan:


--------------------


šŸŒ¬ļø 🌻 āžžāžžāžž ā®ā®ā®ā® 🌈 ā¹ā‘¤ā“æ šŸŒ¬ļø 🌻 āžžāžžāžž ā®ā®ā®ā® 🌈 ā¹ā‘¤ā“æ  šŸŒ¬ļø 🌻 āžžāžžāžž ā®ā®ā®ā® 🌈 ā¹ā‘¤ā“æ


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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Lithop] * 1
    #28226685 - 03/12/23 05:35 PM (10 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

It honestly makes me feel like I'm in the Truman Show, or that I'm psychotic.






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OfflineKickleM
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #28227434 - 03/13/23 08:16 AM (10 months, 10 days ago)

What an amazing image. Almost worth a thread all of its own IMO. I'd love to hear what people see in that.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinesolarshroomster
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: FishOilTheKid] * 3
    #28227479 - 03/13/23 09:00 AM (10 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:

It honestly makes me feel like I'm in the Truman Show, or that I'm psychotic.









This is pretty much my Vision. I wasn't going to comment on it it, but then Kickle asked for views. The only thing I don't like about it is the dark tone.  I don't think it needs to be told that way. Instead of cowering, the puppet should be rejoicing. Right now, I'm cowering at the immensity of the Vision (so it's a fair image), but Fear always gives way to Awe in the face of the Numinous, as I've discovered it. It's like encountering the unknown Divine... you get a nostalgic feeling of a "familiar yet unknown" feeling that creates an uncanny valley. This is where I was at when I wrote my post (frankly, I still swing back to the state of confusion and fear). But then, again, it transforms into Love and Joy..!!

That there's an image for this tells of a timeless myth... and, yet, another sign that other people have "seen".

So... great image!


--------------------
Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: solarshroomster] * 3
    #28227514 - 03/13/23 09:24 AM (10 months, 10 days ago)

Thanks for sharing. Every time I look at it I see something a bit different :lol:

The Dalai Lama once said in any situation you should work to take at least 7 different perspectives on it. This way you won't get too concerned with any particular one, or be as 1 dimensional.

A lot of the time I can get 3 or 4 perspectives pretty well on my own, but for more I definitely need the help of others :smile:

Thanks for being that this morning :heart:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Kickle]
    #28227516 - 03/13/23 09:25 AM (10 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
What an amazing image. Almost worth a thread all of its own IMO. I'd love to hear what people see in that.





The puppet strings are symbols of leverage.


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Offlinesyncro
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Kickle] * 2
    #28227539 - 03/13/23 09:40 AM (10 months, 10 days ago)

Maybe needless to say the obvious, it's demiurgic to me, or the puppeteer whatever influence can seem to put us in limiting, suffering situations - could be ego, or spiritual forces within or without, the lizard people, ... the puppeteer reminds me of Gman of Half Life too. What looks like a river below is that of maya, the stairway to heaven on the other side which may be true or deceptive, the pyramid and all seeing eye, Saturnian, Illuminati stuff.


Edited by syncro (03/13/23 09:46 AM)


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28227542 - 03/13/23 09:43 AM (10 months, 10 days ago)

Ah, very interesting. Surprising depth there in so few words :thumbup:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28227547 - 03/13/23 09:48 AM (10 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:


The puppet strings are symbols of leverage.





RJ tubs on the leverage of opinion:

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:

I don't take responsibility for my opinions  :wink:




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OfflineKickleM
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #28227563 - 03/13/23 10:02 AM (10 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
Maybe needless to say the obvious, it's demiurgic to me, or the puppeteer whatever influence can seem to put us in limiting, suffering situations - could be ego, or spiritual forces within or without, the lizard people, ... the puppeteer reminds me of Gman of Half Life too. What looks like a river below is that of maya, the stairway to heaven on the other side which may be true or deceptive.




The heaviest view so far IMO
But not invalid of course

But at least to me it's a reminder to take multiple views just for that reason. If a heavy view is all one sees, guess how heavy it all feels?

And I think lightening up with other perspectives is healthy. For we all can benefit from taking things a bit more lightly.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: solarshroomster]
    #28227573 - 03/13/23 10:08 AM (10 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

solarshroomster said:

It no doubt represents the greatest shocker of my life, a complete 180 from pseudo-skeptic to faithful believer.

How do you recommend I go forward with my life with the knowledge that I have now?




Your views and opinions have changed.  Imagine if, in the future, your views and opinions change again about this subject.  If this type of change appears impossible (to return to your previous "pseudo-skeptical" viewpoints) - that seeming impossibility might be insightful to ponder.

You say you've experienced increased synchronicities in your life at a rate that was unprecedented relative to the probabilistic means.  That implies there is a number of synchronicities that require no explanation, and above this normal level (whatever that is) we must find another explanation that elucidates this phenomenon.  How do you know what's an unprecedented rate relative to the probabilistic means?


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Invisibleconnectedcosmos
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #28227579 - 03/13/23 10:10 AM (10 months, 10 days ago)

I wanna play!

I see first and foremost - the eye represents awareness , creator , god , brahman , consciousness

The puppeteer represents the ego , how God lost itself / the fall of man

The chains represent the bonds of the mind to suffering and the wheel of samsara

The river or mist near the stairway represents ignorance of the true self , or ignorance in general

The human represents the self and how you have heaven and hell in your hands , do you wanna go down into the mist or up the stairs?

The stairway represents the way out of the bondage and chains of suffering in samsara - moksha , nirvana

That is a really neat picture regardless and really enjoy reading everyone's interpretation of it!


--------------------


54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Kickle]
    #28227587 - 03/13/23 10:12 AM (10 months, 10 days ago)

Painful situations extract painful responses. Perhaps when we're old hands at brain surgery we can process lightly, meanwhile it's hammer and saw


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #28227594 - 03/13/23 10:18 AM (10 months, 10 days ago)

The river or mist near the stairway represents ignorance of the true self , or ignorance in general

Interesting take on the river. :thumbup:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28227606 - 03/13/23 10:24 AM (10 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
Painful situations extract painful responses. Perhaps when we're old hands at brain surgery we can process lightly, meanwhile it's hammer and saw




Yes I think this is true. I can recall many, many instances of seeing only pain. If it weren't for impermanence and the help of others, I would still be seeing that.

And if I were unable to see others as helpful, that would probably be an early perspective I'd work hard at applying. Not letting go of the perspective that others can be painful and harmful of course. But really trying to look and discern when they are helpful.


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Offlinesyncro
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Kickle]
    #28227607 - 03/13/23 10:25 AM (10 months, 10 days ago)

I didn't mean to say it with heaviness, more like an adventure tale. The demiurge should be taken with lightness I think, as we can see how easy it is to transcend, how hard it can be sometimes otherwise notwithstanding.


Edited by syncro (03/13/23 10:36 AM)


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Offlinesolarshroomster
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28227610 - 03/13/23 10:27 AM (10 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

solarshroomster said:

It no doubt represents the greatest shocker of my life, a complete 180 from pseudo-skeptic to faithful believer.

How do you recommend I go forward with my life with the knowledge that I have now?




Your views and opinions have changed.  Imagine if, in the future, your views and opinions change again about this subject.  If this type of change appears impossible (to return to your previous "pseudo-skeptical" viewpoints) - that seeming impossibility might be insightful to ponder.

You say you've experienced increased synchronicities in your life at a rate that was unprecedented relative to the probabilistic means.  That implies there is a number of synchronicities that require no explanation, and above this normal level (whatever that is) we must find another explanation that elucidates this phenomenon.  How do you know what's an unprecedented rate relative to the probabilistic means?




Excellent views. Yes, worldviews always shift based on the level of information received. With the level of information I have now, I formed my view. I think what's a little unique about this is that, whatever the case may be, the "delusion is the reality". In other words, even if we prove that it's just "fireworks going off in the brain", that's not the big deal to me... it's the mere existence and discovery of the spectacle of the "fireworks" that remains a discovery. I'm not sure you can undiscover this, but for those who have glimpsed the Divine Realm, it's not a feeling that "yeah, this is an elated feeling"... it's a "yeah, wow, this is totally different than what I've known before". And you get the sense that you've and other people have seen it before. A lot of the communication on here is just very intelligible to me in ways that would not be without the experience, so it coincides neatly. A whole layer of communication between people on this forum was opened to me that was previously inaccessible it was gibberish before becoming intelligible.

How do I know the unprecedent rate relative to the probabilistic means? This is an undecidable question, and you will have to rely on your intuition, especially in light of the problem of induction (you can't prove that repeated instantiations of something will occur onto the indefinite future or have in the past, so you're forever locked in faith). But, I know the rate has changed, because I know what was the level of synchronicities I've experienced before and how substantially it has changed from that. So, if there was a range of probabilities from which synchronicities could happen, this has picked up dramatically and lasted an unprecedented level of time. I can't continue to not at least be open to the possibility something is going on beyond just "dumb coincidence".

But, yes, individuals are free to change in light of new information for any reason.


--------------------
Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."


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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #28227617 - 03/13/23 10:33 AM (10 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

So... great image!




Glad you liked it.

Quote:

I can't continue to not at least be open to the possibility something is going on beyond just "dumb coincidence".




Indeed.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28227629 - 03/13/23 10:42 AM (10 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
I didn't mean to say it heaviness, more like an adventure tale. The demiurge should be taken with lightness I think, as we can see how easy it is to transcend, how hard it can be sometimes otherwise notwithstanding.




There's this guy named Ken Wilber who writes about states of consciousness. In his view we oscillate within a particular level of consciousness. Oscillation because we aren't static. More like a wavelength. So within that level of consciousness we may be incredibly adept at one thing, then as the wave continues, quite lacking at another. But it all takes place within the state of consciousness we are currently within.

And as we begin to move from one state to another (transcend) it often feels like a death experience. First the old views start to fall away. And then new views start to take their place. And lastly, the old views are seen as being contained by the new views. The old is understood as being contained in the new.

I think this can be a useful conceptualization. And maybe it's helpful as a reminder that not everyone exists in the same state.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #28227631 - 03/13/23 10:43 AM (10 months, 10 days ago)

I suspect the word "coincidence" is bothered when people call it dumb.


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Offlinesyncro
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Kickle]
    #28227647 - 03/13/23 10:51 AM (10 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

syncro said:
I didn't mean to say it heaviness, more like an adventure tale. The demiurge should be taken with lightness I think, as we can see how easy it is to transcend, how hard it can be sometimes otherwise notwithstanding.




There's this guy named Ken Wilber who writes about states of consciousness. In his view we oscillate within a particular level of consciousness. Oscillation because we aren't static. More like a wavelength. So within that level of consciousness we may be incredibly adept at one thing, then as the wave continues, quite lacking at another. But it all takes place within the state of consciousness we are currently within.

And as we begin to move from one state to another (transcend) it often feels like a death experience. First the old views start to fall away. And then new views start to take their place. And lastly, the old views are seen as being contained by the new views. The old is understood as being contained in the new.

I think this can be a useful conceptualization. And maybe it's helpful as a reminder that not everyone exists in the same state.




:thumbup: Ken Wilber is a vipassana guy iirc? I'd be interested in reviewing that.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: syncro]
    #28227943 - 03/13/23 02:42 PM (10 months, 10 days ago)

Not sure I just have 1 book written by him called integral psychology. But that's where the above conception came from


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinesyncro
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Kickle]
    #28228023 - 03/13/23 03:22 PM (10 months, 10 days ago)

Found it, thanks. "The Great Nest of Being is the backbone of the perennial philosophy, and it would therefore be a crucial ingredient of any truly integral psychology."



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Invisibledoolhoofd
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Kickle]
    #28228089 - 03/13/23 03:58 PM (10 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
What an amazing image. Almost worth a thread all of its own IMO. I'd love to hear what people see in that.




Here's a link to the original artwork; and here's a quick link to my opinion on the matter (no use repeating myself, eh?).


--------------------
Penny: 'What are you and Professor FussyFace up to tonight?'
Leonard: "Star Wars on Blu-ray."
Penny: 'Haven't you seen that movie like, a thousand times?'
Leonard: "Not on Blu-ray. Only twice on Blu-ray."
Penny: 'Oh, Leonard...'
Leonard: "I know. It's high-resolution sadness."
- The Big Bang Theory, S07E09


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