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Beluga
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: solarshroomster]
#28220775 - 03/08/23 01:26 PM (10 months, 15 days ago) |
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For OP- Read the Kybalion. I am not a hermeticist, but it is a quick read that relates at least one fundamental principle, which is that All is mind, and all of differentiated existence is part of the All. Obviously for the All to have a differentiated experience, it has to limit itself and its understanding. If you are God, in unified Oneness, and you want to experience the feelings of innocent love, you will have to limit your knowledge of evolutionary psychology, biological sexual concepts, ect to fully immerse yourself in that moment in a differentiated avatar as a young man or woman together with their beloved, and experience those feelings without knowledge of the biological or social mechanics behind them. The knowledge would destroy the magic. Same as experiencing the purity of a hungry lion on the hunt, a scientist discovering some concept for the first time, ect. It all depends on the initial restriction of knowledge that would make the pursuit seem pointless or shallow were that knowledge already known. There is a reason why people have a limited understanding of certain things. A few start with that limit so that they can experience growth, most have that limit so that they can experience something that requires that limitation. Many here now are experiencing what a nihilistic, materialist existence is like, and all that goes along with that. They chose to do that before differentiating into avatar here. You can write your guidebook and it might be great to educate those who are here partially to discover and grow in knowledge, but it wont touch those that aren’t supposed to have that knowledge this time around. People are unable to see knowledge that doesn’t benefit them or their purpose. This is why the old adage of casting pearls before swine exists. Trying to educate those that dont want to be educated on a topic will not be fruitful, and they will actually fight you to maintain their illusions. That is just part of the game. It is no different than telling a young boy in love about why he loves from a biological or materialist perspective, or telling a lion lusting for meat that his hunger is meaningless. They will tear you apart for interrupting the purity of their ideal and pursuit. So dont get too down about the ignorance of other people. If they were fully enlightened, they would no longer be physical beings. This is what is meant by “no one who sees God’s face can remain alive.” The veil is required in varying degrees for the differentiated experiences of this world.
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doolhoofd
doolhoofd.com



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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: solarshroomster]
#28221047 - 03/08/23 04:05 PM (10 months, 15 days ago) |
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"People get unbelievably upset when you poke them in the axioms, so to speak." - Peterson
-------------------- Penny: 'What are you and Professor FussyFace up to tonight?' Leonard: "Star Wars on Blu-ray." Penny: 'Haven't you seen that movie like, a thousand times?' Leonard: "Not on Blu-ray. Only twice on Blu-ray." Penny: 'Oh, Leonard...' Leonard: "I know. It's high-resolution sadness." - The Big Bang Theory, S07E09
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Kickle
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Beluga]
#28221065 - 03/08/23 04:17 PM (10 months, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Beluga said: If they were fully enlightened, they would no longer be physical beings. This is what is meant by “no one who sees God’s face can remain alive.” The veil is required in varying degrees for the differentiated experiences of this world.
Oh? How do you know this?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Beluga
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Kickle]
#28221116 - 03/08/23 04:52 PM (10 months, 15 days ago) |
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You are being lazy and not taking the time and thought to understand what I said. When you do, and you have a rebuttal, then by all means make a counter argument.
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Kickle
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Beluga]
#28221132 - 03/08/23 05:03 PM (10 months, 15 days ago) |
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I was seeking more understanding. Hence questions. You don't have to answer.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Beluga
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Kickle]
#28221153 - 03/08/23 05:18 PM (10 months, 15 days ago) |
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I’ll give you a place to start. Imagine you are God, the All consciousness, alone in the void. Nothing exists outside of your consciousness. You contain all potentials, all things. Now imagine you want to experience loving another being. There is nothing outside of you though. Not even any potential that exists outside of your mind. Try to imagine how you would go about making that experience of loving another happen in those circumstances, without employing differentiation and limitation. You can try to do this for any experience, or for taking the role of any individuated, unique conscious being in a physical world that contains other unique beings. I think it is self evident that it can’t be done.
When people take psychedelics at high doses, they often experience the limits of their consciousness and intelligence falling away, in parallel with the loss of their individuality and differentiation. Their knowledge expands to infinity, even time ceases to limit the mind, and eventually they end up at the Godhead-knowing all, being all, with no individuality separate from anything else. This is the classic ego death that is so often referenced but seldom experienced by psychonauts and other mystics of various traditions, from Kabbalistic Judaism, to Sufi Islam, to Buddhist meditation. Coming back into physicality and the body involves the opposite process, including the reimposition of the limitation to cognize what one was able to know and experience in the mystical/ psychedelic state. All that is left are vague impressions. The reason you felt like you had all knowledge is because you did. You were reunified with the All-Consciousness. The reason you can’t bring it back is because you are a differentiated being, limited and separate, so that you can have a life spent interacting with other differentiated and limited beings and environments, all of which are ultimately the same thing when the veil is lifted. All of creation is composed in its entirety by the same entity playing games with itself. As long as you are here though, separate physically and mentally from other aspects of the All, you cannot possess All-knowledge. It has been separated, divided and limited in different ways, infused in different measure in different aspects of the creation. Which is ultimately just a dream in the mind of the All. Go back to the first paragraph and start as God. Imagine you are him, and try to figure out what it would be like to create a world in your mind and live in it. Because that’s exactly what you really are, and exactly what you really did.
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Beluga
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Kickle]
#28221169 - 03/08/23 05:26 PM (10 months, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: I was seeking more understanding. Hence questions. You don't have to answer.
And sorry, I did not mean to be antagonistic. I thought you were just arrogantly dismissing what I was trying to share without contributing anything or legitimately debating anything.
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Kickle
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Beluga]
#28221181 - 03/08/23 05:33 PM (10 months, 15 days ago) |
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I've read everything you've written and my takeaway is that you, as an individual, view your experiences to have the meaning you've written out.
I get the impression that you think you've met God and brought the knowledge of God back with you. That you are speaking from a godly POV.
I think that's cool 
Not really too relevant to me if I'm being honest. And that's just to say what can I possibly add to someone who's already realized they got it all? I'm worthless to you in such a case and that's OK. I appreciate you sharing.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Beluga
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Kickle]
#28221190 - 03/08/23 05:40 PM (10 months, 15 days ago) |
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I’m just sharing one perspective that I am quite certain is not the full truth. I do think I understand more than most, but of course less than some, and very little in the overall picture. My manner of discussion is to present an argument, and see if people can poke holes in it. I have a scientific background and that is how understandings are advanced in my tradition. Present an argument, or an idea, and then see if it can withstand debate. It is not to express the arrogant assertion that I “know God.”
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Kickle
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Beluga]
#28221194 - 03/08/23 05:44 PM (10 months, 15 days ago) |
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Well if you want debate step one forum up. The Philosophy, Sociology and Psychology forum is built just for that reason. This one is the softer discussion one.
I think the first debatable point would be the concept of unity/oneness/all/God. As a concept, one can debate the merit of it.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Beluga
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Kickle]
#28221213 - 03/08/23 05:59 PM (10 months, 15 days ago) |
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I dont know friend. Some might argue that the truths of the spiritual are harsher than those of this world. Or equally so anyway. As above, so below. And why are we here if not to advance our knowledge of all that is, and our place within it? That would presuppose that at least some of that knowledge can be ascertained and advanced does it not? And if so, what better way to figure out what is true and what isnt than to have some debate using logic, philosophy, and if possible, experimental methods? Many religions have strong traditions of debate. Most of Orthodox Judaism for example is built on it. See the Mishnah for example. I think that one of the cultural shifts that is on the horizon is going to be the attempt to integrate spiritual understandings of consciousness into physics and biology. That wont happen however, and that potentially very fruitful field of endeavor will continue to lie dormant, until those who dispute materialism are able to debate their ideas and win in an open forum. That is also how they will crystallize their own knowledge. If you want to increase understanding in any field, you have to be able to work at it and deal with some difficulties. Gaining knowledge is not cheap or easy.
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Kickle
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Beluga]
#28221223 - 03/08/23 06:04 PM (10 months, 15 days ago) |
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Well I post in the debate forum more than here because i like debate. But it's not for everyone. That's why this forum exists. The two forums were one, way back when. But enough people wanted a split that it happened. And now there are forums with different rules.
If you want a forum that supports debate you know where to go. Otherwise you're subject to the rules of this forum just like anyone else.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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solarshroomster
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Beluga]
#28221385 - 03/08/23 07:20 PM (10 months, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Beluga said: For OP- Read the Kybalion. I am not a hermeticist, but it is a quick read that relates at least one fundamental principle, which is that All is mind, and all of differentiated existence is part of the All. Obviously for the All to have a differentiated experience, it has to limit itself and its understanding. If you are God, in unified Oneness, and you want to experience the feelings of innocent love, you will have to limit your knowledge of evolutionary psychology, biological sexual concepts, ect to fully immerse yourself in that moment in a differentiated avatar as a young man or woman together with their beloved, and experience those feelings without knowledge of the biological or social mechanics behind them. The knowledge would destroy the magic. Same as experiencing the purity of a hungry lion on the hunt, a scientist discovering some concept for the first time, ect. It all depends on the initial restriction of knowledge that would make the pursuit seem pointless or shallow were that knowledge already known. There is a reason why people have a limited understanding of certain things. A few start with that limit so that they can experience growth, most have that limit so that they can experience something that requires that limitation. Many here now are experiencing what a nihilistic, materialist existence is like, and all that goes along with that. They chose to do that before differentiating into avatar here. You can write your guidebook and it might be great to educate those who are here partially to discover and grow in knowledge, but it wont touch those that aren’t supposed to have that knowledge this time around. People are unable to see knowledge that doesn’t benefit them or their purpose. This is why the old adage of casting pearls before swine exists. Trying to educate those that dont want to be educated on a topic will not be fruitful, and they will actually fight you to maintain their illusions. That is just part of the game. It is no different than telling a young boy in love about why he loves from a biological or materialist perspective, or telling a lion lusting for meat that his hunger is meaningless. They will tear you apart for interrupting the purity of their ideal and pursuit. So dont get too down about the ignorance of other people. If they were fully enlightened, they would no longer be physical beings. This is what is meant by “no one who sees God’s face can remain alive.” The veil is required in varying degrees for the differentiated experiences of this world.
This is really helpful, and what you're talking about with the One differentiating is quite closely to what the Vision instilled in me independently of confirmation from anyone else. I think there's some interpretive nuance that's a little different... but interpretation, in my view, is more of a petty issue. What's not petty, however, is that the mystical domain exists.
To be honest, the "Philosophy" forum that allows for "debates" is, I think, part of what confused me. There should be debates about the specifics, but where I think I'm heading towards is something I never even considered: the mystical domain exists, and the weight of evidence is undeniable. The fact that there are debates about the nuance actually confused me into thinking people are "blowing hot air" up each other, when in actuality, it may be some of that--but it may also be that people have moved on from the fact the mystical domain exists and are now talking about the nitty gritty.
For me, personally, I really can't move on from this concept. The existence of the mystical domain itself to me is more important than any individual interpretation of "what it means" or "what the specifics are". Frankly, it can be just an astounding delusion that science hasn't explained, and it would still be interesting. The fact that "this shit" is real has me totally stunned and, unquestionably, the biggest shocker in my life. To be honest, it's so against the worldview I grew up, I don't think I will ever accept it.
A lot of people talk about the mystical from the standpoint of assuming it is a "given", whereas, I'm not sure it's a given based on the environment I was raised in or myself (again, not sure who's to blame). This sets me up for repeated cognitive dissonance. It's like banging my head against the wall and hoping it will stop.
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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Beluga
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: solarshroomster] 1
#28221543 - 03/08/23 10:04 PM (10 months, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
solarshroomster said:
Quote:
Beluga said: For OP- Read the Kybalion. I am not a hermeticist, but it is a quick read that relates at least one fundamental principle, which is that All is mind, and all of differentiated existence is part of the All. Obviously for the All to have a differentiated experience, it has to limit itself and its understanding. If you are God, in unified Oneness, and you want to experience the feelings of innocent love, you will have to limit your knowledge of evolutionary psychology, biological sexual concepts, ect to fully immerse yourself in that moment in a differentiated avatar as a young man or woman together with their beloved, and experience those feelings without knowledge of the biological or social mechanics behind them. The knowledge would destroy the magic. Same as experiencing the purity of a hungry lion on the hunt, a scientist discovering some concept for the first time, ect. It all depends on the initial restriction of knowledge that would make the pursuit seem pointless or shallow were that knowledge already known. There is a reason why people have a limited understanding of certain things. A few start with that limit so that they can experience growth, most have that limit so that they can experience something that requires that limitation. Many here now are experiencing what a nihilistic, materialist existence is like, and all that goes along with that. They chose to do that before differentiating into avatar here. You can write your guidebook and it might be great to educate those who are here partially to discover and grow in knowledge, but it wont touch those that aren’t supposed to have that knowledge this time around. People are unable to see knowledge that doesn’t benefit them or their purpose. This is why the old adage of casting pearls before swine exists. Trying to educate those that dont want to be educated on a topic will not be fruitful, and they will actually fight you to maintain their illusions. That is just part of the game. It is no different than telling a young boy in love about why he loves from a biological or materialist perspective, or telling a lion lusting for meat that his hunger is meaningless. They will tear you apart for interrupting the purity of their ideal and pursuit. So dont get too down about the ignorance of other people. If they were fully enlightened, they would no longer be physical beings. This is what is meant by “no one who sees God’s face can remain alive.” The veil is required in varying degrees for the differentiated experiences of this world.
This is really helpful, and what you're talking about with the One differentiating is quite closely to what the Vision instilled in me independently of confirmation from anyone else. I think there's some interpretive nuance that's a little different... but interpretation, in my view, is more of a petty issue. What's not petty, however, is that the mystical domain exists.
To be honest, the "Philosophy" forum that allows for "debates" is, I think, part of what confused me. There should be debates about the specifics, but where I think I'm heading towards is something I never even considered: the mystical domain exists, and the weight of evidence is undeniable. The fact that there are debates about the nuance actually confused me into thinking people are "blowing hot air" up each other, when in actuality, it may be some of that--but it may also be that people have moved on from the fact the mystical domain exists and are now talking about the nitty gritty.
For me, personally, I really can't move on from this concept. The existence of the mystical domain itself to me is more important than any individual interpretation of "what it means" or "what the specifics are". Frankly, it can be just an astounding delusion that science hasn't explained, and it would still be interesting. The fact that "this shit" is real has me totally stunned and, unquestionably, the biggest shocker in my life. To be honest, it's so against the worldview I grew up, I don't think I will ever accept it.
A lot of people talk about the mystical from the standpoint of assuming it is a "given", whereas, I'm not sure it's a given based on the environment I was raised in or myself (again, not sure who's to blame). This sets me up for repeated cognitive dissonance. It's like banging my head against the wall and hoping it will stop.
I hear you. I was raised mostly atheist, with some mild religious exposure. Went through rigorous materialist science training as well with lots and lots of schooling. I was pretty much an established nihilist agnostic with a strongly atheist bent before I made it to high school though, my further studies just ingrained it further. Some traumatic experiences then occurred in my life however, which no longer allowed me to continue to pursue the power seeking that I had substituted for meaning. I wanted to commit suicide for years, but felt I couldn’t due to my parents. So in order to stay alive, I soaked up all I could in an effort to convince myself that the spiritual world existed, and that I might find some meaning for my suffering that would transcend this lifetime. Comparative religion, Nde literature, holocaust studies, reincarnation research, ect. None of it though ever really convinced me, and it was more like escapism and a temporary suspension of disbelief than a real solution. It was only through the direct experience of psychedelics, mainly high dose mushrooms, that I really started to believe more than not that the spiritual was real, and that our consciousness was not just an emergent and accidental byproduct of our physical brains. It was an amazing revelation for me as well, and by far the most important and belief shattering aspect was simply going from decades of nearly certain non-belief, to direct experience of which the most probable explanation was for me, the existence of a genuine spiritual reality. Since that time however, as the novelty of that has worn off, I have become more interested in the particulars. The survival of some personal consciousness after death, the individual retention of earned wisdom and experience for use in further lives, whether this world is the best possible world and if so can it be improved, ect. Ect. Because ultimately, while the spiritual is a remarkable thing to come to accept, it does not necessarily mean that it is “better” than the material, or offers more meaning. It seems to, but that depends. Anyway, I am sure with time you will get over your initial shock, especially if you do a few high dose shroom trips, and will want to dig deeper, as you seem to already be doing. All the best in your journey and good luck with your book.
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Lithop
Spaghetti Days



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Loc: 🛸
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Beluga]
#28221806 - 03/09/23 06:03 AM (10 months, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Beluga said: Because ultimately, while the spiritual is a remarkable thing to come to accept, it does not necessarily mean that it is “better” than the material, or offers more meaning. It seems to, but that depends..
nor does it have to be viewed as strictly seperate to the material, IMO.
--------------------
🌬️ 🌻 ➞➞➞ ❮❮❮❮ 🌈 ❹⑤⓿ 🌬️ 🌻 ➞➞➞ ❮❮❮❮ 🌈 ❹⑤⓿ 🌬️ 🌻 ➞➞➞ ❮❮❮❮ 🌈 ❹⑤⓿
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solarshroomster
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Lithop]
#28224738 - 03/11/23 06:46 AM (10 months, 13 days ago) |
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Thanks everyone for their words. I'm sorry, but I really can't get over how I feel misled. Let me explain a little bit more, I've had synchronicities increase in my life at a rate that was absolutely unprecedented relative to the probabilistic means at which they occurred for the first 30 years of my life. This was accompanied by ineffable Visions. I'm not sure how I am to take this from a mystical perspective?
I do feel I was left somewhat unprepared for this, and it's a rude awakening. I would just be lying if I didn't say I felt lied to, by either myself or other people (again, placing blame is not important - but I think I rightfully feel frustrated). I rejected mystical phenomena all my life (you can go back 7 years from now to see my posts, where I still was clearly grappling with whether this was actually a real thing. Even as I asserted it, the general tone is one that is still clearly in disbelief and still deeply skeptical inside). Shit, I'm still skeptical... like, how was this kept so hidden my entire life? It no doubt represents the greatest shocker of my life, a complete 180 from pseudo-skeptic to faithful believer.
How do you recommend I go forward with my life with the knowledge that I have now? Did you go through similar "awakenings"?
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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Buster_Brown
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: solarshroomster]
#28224792 - 03/11/23 07:52 AM (10 months, 12 days ago) |
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Multiple personalities...I could assign one to the subject of my displeasures while the others go simultaneously where their hearts lead them. Something to look forward to.
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syncro
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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: solarshroomster]
#28224803 - 03/11/23 08:07 AM (10 months, 12 days ago) |
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^ Yes, and I think it is largely around wounding, the reaction of opposition I mean, our sensitivities - like for me, being cut off from expressing as a kid around bigger kids, neglectful parents, etc. It's no one's fault. I in turn became a bit of bully for a while when I had the chance, a stupid thing not knowing how else to vent the hurt.
Now as an adult, seeing my reaction to such things was valuable - when we share our favorite verse with emotion wide open and not considering at all that a turd will be plopped on it. To see my reaction was more than worth it. Though not doing the self-reflection justice, I'd say it wakes up the bullied, neglected child so to say, to see that it is no longer the case.
I think you say this as well but on this subject I've been thinking that those other views, scientific, etc., have their place and are respectable and rewarding. I can try to temporarily give up my view if necessary to further understand theirs and interact some in that because it is profitable intellectually and socially. If they have no bad intentions it can only add to us and more in the sum of the parts. No one is stopping a free adult from pursuing their inclinations, first amendment and all. The most important person to convince is oneself, and that with others is taken care of.
Not that you shouldn't write and express about it, but don't hold the resentments. (easy to say) That's about us.
Edited by syncro (03/11/23 08:08 AM)
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Kickle
Wanderer



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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: solarshroomster] 1
#28224806 - 03/11/23 08:11 AM (10 months, 12 days ago) |
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How do you recommend I go forward with my life with the knowledge that I have now? Did you go through similar "awakenings"?
My advice? Learn the art of forgetting/unknowing
If you knew what to expect before and that worldly knowledge was mistaken, does it make sense to rebuild on knowledge once more? We all need grounding, but knowledge does not need to be the ground. It is shaky ground at best and liable to completely fall out from under you at worst.
I like Buddhism for alternative views on grounding. But if Christianity is a more familiar flavor, The Cloud of Unknowing is great IMO
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Buster_Brown
L'une


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Re: I'm frustrated and feel misled into thinking the spiritual world was BS [Re: Kickle]
#28224814 - 03/11/23 08:28 AM (10 months, 12 days ago) |
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I prefer the dollhouse approach, a story invented in the mind to identify the action and the characters.
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