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Kickle
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The line 1
#28207765 - 02/28/23 07:32 AM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Where is the line between strong sensation and pain?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Lithop
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Re: The line [Re: Kickle]
#28207771 - 02/28/23 07:36 AM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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The line lives somewhere between your raw perception of the sensation and the narrative you associate with it.
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Kickle
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Re: The line [Re: Lithop]
#28207780 - 02/28/23 07:45 AM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Nice response. It makes me curious as to how you perceive strength.
If a strong sensation is more akin to raw perception than to narrative, what determines the strength of it?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Lithop
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Re: The line [Re: Kickle]
#28207800 - 02/28/23 08:10 AM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: Nice response. It makes me curious as to how you perceive strength.
Well, in this case I suppose strength refers to the ability to maintain whatever reaction you desire to project, in spite of the pain.
Maybe you want to put a mask on and hide it, if you can do so and 'fool' the company you're in to a satifactory level then you're exercising strength.
Maybe you want to go the other way, honestly acknolwedging your pain despite knowing your insistance that you're managing it will only coax sympathy and misplaced judgment from company. If you get through the visit/interaction without going apeshit at whoever is "Aww I'm so sorry"-ing you, on top of the existing pain impulses, then you're exercising strength.
Quote:
Kickle said: If a strong sensation is more akin to raw perception than to narrative, what determines the strength of it?
I'm working under the assumption that the sensation itsself is free of conceptual elaboration (raw). I don't think that the strength of sensation comes, necessarily, from the narrative. More that the narrative contains or provides the tranformative power to direct your perception regardless of sensation.
The sensation of being pricked with a pin starts with the nerve impulse, which goes to the brain "Alert- interaction!"
which goes to identification "Felt like a pin!"
which goes to the story "I don't LIKE being pricked with pins!"
which goes to the judgment "Situations in which I get pricked by pins, should be avoided."
What are your thoughts on this one?
Cheers!
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redgreenvines
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Re: The line [Re: Kickle]
#28207814 - 02/28/23 08:26 AM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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The perception of pain is somewhat trainable.
What gets a child crying is when the number of heat, pressure, or internal muscle or gut sensing neurons changes quickly. (sudden bright lights, loud noise similarly is shocking and can be perceived as ~painful)
For example at any moment perhaps 250 signals can be reaching the brain that could indicate pain from various parts of the body, but they may only indicate pressure from sitting, which may be a relief from accumulated muscle pain in your legs or back after a long walk. You can be hypersensitive and wish to medicate very low levels of pain, but it is not necessary and a small amount of persisting pain will naturally be ignored or filtered out.
We usually ignore sensations from a small population of pain reporting neurons, especially if there is no change in the pattern after a few seconds.
If that 250 neurons suddenly jumps to 500 because you sat on a thorn, or to 1500 because a big jerk sat too close to you or dropped his bag on you or slapped you, it is the change that first grabs your attention. The persistence of pain means that the 1500 neurons may have temporarily stopped screaming but their neighbours, maybe a different 1000 neurons, are still telling you something changed and is not good in the same area - you should do something about it because it consumes your attention.
In fact pain messages of this nature, like pain from burning fire means tissue is being cooked or being torn or otherwise damaged. Headaches are a bit different but usually we are talking about rolling pressures among the sinuses or in the muscles in the neck and head.
Below a threshold it can be ignored, above that threshold or if there is a rapidly changing population of neurons signalling excessive heat, cold, pressure, light, sound, etc. then is not easy to ignore unless you are a fakir and have trained to address pain with body adjustments that seem submissive but are actually adaptive.
Each person's threshold can be different, and the training can change the threshold, both mentally and physically by increasing strength, growth of callouses etc.
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Kickle
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Re: The line [Re: Lithop]
#28207831 - 02/28/23 08:47 AM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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My thoughts are those of confusion and that is often why I start threads. I think confusion is a good starting point for exploring.
Sometimes I find exploring physicality to be a good entry point to exploring the mental, as they are connected. And ultimately that's where this sort of exploration leads IMO, is to individuation in mental responses.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Kickle
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The perception of pain is somewhat trainable.
In what way? You mention increasing strength at the end of the post, how do you see these two as related?
Callouses would indicate repeated action? More than?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
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Re: The line [Re: Kickle]
#28207919 - 02/28/23 09:54 AM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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I do not play guitar, nor do I know the rate of callous growth, I personally found attempting guitar too painful and only tired once or twice.
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Lithop
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Quote:
Kickle said: My thoughts are those of confusion and that is often why I start threads. I think confusion is a good starting point for exploring.
Sometimes I find exploring physicality to be a good entry point to exploring the mental, as they are connected. And ultimately that's where this sort of exploration leads IMO, is to individuation in mental responses.
I get you, but I meant more like where do you see the line between strong sensation and pain right now?
Quote:
redgreenvines said: I do not play guitar, nor do I know the rate of callous growth, I personally found attempting guitar too painful and only tired once or twice.
In my experience with bass, the rate of callous growth is directly related to the amount of time you expose the fingertips to the strings alongside the pressure of that exposure.
If you fall out of regular practise, it takes a long time for the root callous to dissapear, you can still kind of top it back up rather than build from 'day 1' skin.
Seems analogous to the subject matter IMO. 
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Edited by Lithop (02/28/23 10:20 AM)
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loladoreen


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Re: The line [Re: Kickle] 1
#28207948 - 02/28/23 10:19 AM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Comfort?
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“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”
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redgreenvines
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acclimatization?
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Lithop
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Quote:
loladoreen said: Comfort?
As in, somewhere the sensation stops just being 'strong' and turns into pain, like the line between getting a tan and getting sunburned?
Quote:
redgreenvines said: acclimatization?
The same condition being liable to cause the unacclimated pain whilst causing those used to it simply strong sensation, any example?
Cheers!
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Kickle
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Re: The line [Re: Lithop]
#28207971 - 02/28/23 10:37 AM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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I get you, but I meant more like where do you see the line between strong sensation and pain right now?
Blurry 
I think a good distinguisher of pain as I understand it would be one of the following responses: fight, flight, freeze, fawn
If one feels a need to fight, I think this is likely a response to perceived pain over just strong sensation.
If one feels a need to flee, I think this is likely a response to a perceived pain over just strong sensation.
If one feels themselves freezing up, I think this is likely a response to perceived pain over just strong sensation.
If one is moved to fawn over another, I think this is likely a response to perceived pain over just strong sensation.
Those responses help me to begin to draw a line, but there is so much connected to those responses in any given situation that it blurs quickly. I suspect there is more to explore.
And I think exploring in this sense is not just dialogue. Obviously leading into the experience of fight, flight, freeze or fawn, is a prime time to be paying attention. Pain? Strong sensation? Both? Neither? Transformation?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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loladoreen


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Re: The line [Re: Kickle] 1
#28207975 - 02/28/23 10:42 AM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Interesting conversation. I tend to have a high pain tolerance. Yet no tolerance for small annoying things. For example, pain on the level of childbirth I can handle Discomfort on the level of allergies or a migraine send me over the edge... I cant stand it.
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Kickle
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Thanks for saying that. IMO this becomes more and more nuanced and that also blurs things.
For example, my experience is that Fear is connected to anger Anger is connected to frustration So fear and frustration can be considered relatives imo
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Lithop
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Re: The line [Re: Kickle]
#28207992 - 02/28/23 10:55 AM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: Blurry 

Quote:
Kickle said: Those responses help me to begin to draw a line, but there is so much connected to those responses in any given situation that it blurs quickly. I suspect there is more to explore.
With the exploration, important I think to make an acknowledgment that pain as a definition is just as fluid as the experiences, perceptions and tolerances of those in pain.
Quote:
Kickle said: And I think exploring in this sense is not just dialogue. Obviously leading into the experience of fight, flight, freeze or fawn, is a prime time to be paying attention. Pain? Strong sensation? Both? Neither? Transformation?
Maybe in action, rather than dialogue, 'the line' becomes defined by whichever tool failed us in the pain avoidance in that particular situation.
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Kickle
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Re: The line [Re: Lithop]
#28208000 - 02/28/23 11:01 AM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Well said. Do you think what leads us to pain in the present may have roots way back, not in the present?
Physically there is what is often referred to as phantom limb pain in amputees. Where the missing limb still feels present, and painfully so.
I've always found it interesting that the treatment that emerged for such pain, is to use a mirror and show the working limb.
Makes me wonder about the importance when we are experiencing past pain, of having something related that is healthy to reflect on.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Lithop
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Re: The line [Re: Kickle] 1
#28208012 - 02/28/23 11:14 AM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: Well said. Sometimes what leads us to pain/failed us has roots way back IME.
And that, plays directly into:
Quote:
Kickle said: Fear is connected to anger Anger is connected to frustration So fear and frustration can be considered relatives imo
The interconnectivity between the emotions is so often what stops 'the line' getting drawn. Such a balancing act with that shit.
Quote:
Kickle said: Physically there is what is often referred to as phantom limb pain in amputees. Where the missing limb still feels present, and painfully so.
I've always found it interesting that the treatment that emerged for such pain, is to use a mirror and show the working limb.
Makes me wonder about the importance when we are experiencing past pain, of having something related that isn't painful to reflect on.
This is where an important distinction has to be made between physical pain and emotional/mental/spiritual non-physical pain.
It doesn't hurt me to remember a broken arm, nor do I even feel it despite knowing the location and nature of the injury.
It hurts to remember a pet dying and I definitely feel emotions related to the story of my experiences with that animal.
So are you saying, for example (phantom limb analogy I mean) if dealing with painful past memories of trauma around say, animal attack it might be beneficial to reframe that with perhaps visiting a place of therapy animals, gradually increasing in visit time etc?
CAPSLOCK EDIT FOR NON-MOD EYES ONLY I SEEN KICKLES EDIT, MIND YOU THE POST DIDNT EVEN SAY EDITED , HAD TO RETROACTIVELY EDIT MY OWN POST ACCORDINGLY. DIFFERENCE BEING I'M ONE OF YOU GUYS(NORMAL, HONEST SITE USERS LIKE YOURSELF) AND I LEFT MY EDIT NOTICE UP PROUD.
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Edited by Lithop (02/28/23 11:26 AM)
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Kickle
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Re: The line [Re: Lithop] 1
#28208021 - 02/28/23 11:17 AM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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I did some sneaky edits as I thought about how I might treat such exploration.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Lithop
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Re: The line [Re: Kickle] 1
#28208034 - 02/28/23 11:29 AM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: I did some sneaky edits as I thought about how I might treat such exploration.
Don't worry, people noticed.
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