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nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,555
Loc: Utah
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Re: Do Republicans trip? [Re: Ajahn Don] 1
#28211682 - 03/02/23 08:41 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Ajahn Don said:
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nooneman said: It's probably 50/50, just as many republicans and conservatives trip as democrats and liberals. It is a universal constant that people like drugs.
Back in the 60s, the acid test stopped in a couple of very conservative places, and they were absolutely flooded with people.
50/50? I'm shocked that you suggest that. The majority of conservatives, evangelicals, do not drink alcohol. If you have watched videos online of psychedelic rituals, therapy or events, there are no indications that they are catering to anything but us old hippies. I'm all for hippie shit, but this will not ever reach even a handful of Church Ladies.
As for the acid trip being flooded with people, the county where I live is only one-third registered Democrats, but that would be enough for flood a bus. With only Democrats.
Gotta call BS on this one, man.
Clearly haven't been around here for very long. We've got tons of conservatives on the boards, and used to have a fuckton more.
I dunno where you get the idea that a majority of conservatives don't use drugs, I assure you that just as many conservatives use drugs as liberals. Liking drugs is human nature, it doesn't discriminate based on political persuasion. You know how much meth and opiate use there is in deep red America?
I'm also not sure you have an accurate picture of what the average conservative is like. They're not all old church ladies or something.
And yes, the acid tests had tons of conservatives attending, that is a fact of history that you can read more about if you want.
Edited by nooneman (03/02/23 08:44 PM)
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



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Re: Do Republicans trip? [Re: loladoreen]
#28211686 - 03/02/23 08:44 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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loladoreen said: This post is weird to me. I dont like or dislike republicans. If they tripped that makes them acceptable to you? If they dont it is a reason to dislike? People are entitled to their own opinons. It would be beneficial if we got back to that point. I hate that politics are dividing people. Have I been offended by some things? Yes, but then I check myself. It is not a personal attack on me. It is and it isnt. To dislike an entire party or dislike people without knowing them. I dont want to be that way.
I like it. Don't be that way.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,555
Loc: Utah
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It's also worth mentioning that psychedelics tend to reinforce preexisting beliefs, making both conservatives and liberals more confident in their political beliefs, as a general rule. They certainly don't tend to switch anyone from one side to the other.
My experience has generally been that people tend to come out more extreme than they go in, whatever their beliefs. Not always that way, but I can't count the number of times someone went in with an attitude like "maybe things are this way, that's possible" and came out "THINGS ARE ABSOLUTELY THAT WAY"
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: Do Republicans trip? [Re: nooneman]
#28211697 - 03/02/23 08:53 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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nooneman said: It's also worth mentioning that psychedelics tend to reinforce preexisting beliefs, making both conservatives and liberals more confident in their political beliefs, as a general rule. They certainly don't tend to switch anyone from one side to the other.
My experience has generally been that people tend to come out more extreme than they go in, whatever their beliefs. Not always that way, but I can't count the number of times someone went in with an attitude like "maybe things are this way, that's possible" and came out "THINGS ARE ABSOLUTELY THAT WAY"
You think so? Maybe it depends on the type of person you are. I feel like strong trips always make me challenge my own beliefs, but I'm the kind of person who will quickly abandon a belief if I feel it has been proven wrong. I like to believe that anyway.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Ajahn Don
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I have been observing Republicans and conservatives--not necessarily the same thing--for decades. They fascinate me because they do not think the same way I think. Not that they have different opinions from my own, my own friends who are liberals have different opinions from me. That doesn't bother me in the slightest. Conservatives' opinions don't bother me, either. They are entitled to their opinions and entitled to expressing them. It is not a question of opinion. My interest is in how they arrive at that opinion.
Conservatives do not form at their opinions in the same way liberals do. Conservatives seem to base their opinions more on emotion than logic. If facts contradict their opinions, they seem to always choose their opinions. Cognitive dissonance is deadly to everyone but appears to be more so for conservatives.
Conservatives almost by definition are more close-minded than liberals, or they would be liberals. My interest in this thread has been to wonder if taking psychedelics might open their minds, change their minds, alter their thinking. Would they even still be conservatives? And how would their minds work during and after tripping?
I know that conservatives' minds do not work the same way liberals' minds work. My interest is what effects psychedelics might have on them, since we know what effects they have on liberals, since it is mostly liberals who try them.
Does this help clear up the "weird post"?
-------------------- "He's not altogether dense, but he's not altogether there."
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,256
Loc: where?
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Re: Do Republicans trip? [Re: Ajahn Don] 1
#28212064 - 03/03/23 06:46 AM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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Ajahn Don said: My interest in this thread has been to wonder if taking psychedelics might open their minds...
no because like me, most liberals i know take/took psychedelics to open their minds. they/we were trying to tear down barriers. trying to reprogram. trying to break free.
you dont see too many conservatives trying to 'break free' from group mentalities. it seems more about perfecting the cookie cutter imagine of what society tries to tell us we are. hence all the gender role/culture war bullshit coming from the right.
give a liberal acid they turn into greta thunberg. give a conservative acid they turn into joe rogan.
psyches are not a political/social cure all but man i wish they were
Edited by mushboy (03/03/23 06:49 AM)
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: Do Republicans trip? [Re: mushboy] 1
#28212130 - 03/03/23 07:45 AM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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mushboy said:
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Ajahn Don said: My interest in this thread has been to wonder if taking psychedelics might open their minds...
no because like me, most liberals i know take/took psychedelics to open their minds. they/we were trying to tear down barriers. trying to reprogram. trying to break free.
you dont see too many conservatives trying to 'break free' from group mentalities. it seems more about perfecting the cookie cutter imagine of what society tries to tell us we are. hence all the gender role/culture war bullshit coming from the right.
give a liberal acid they turn into greta thunberg. give a conservative acid they turn into joe rogan.
psyches are not a political/social cure all but man i wish they were
Joe Rogan...?
Joe Rogan isn't a conservative. If anything he's an independent. I don't know why Joe Rogan gets so much hate, honestly. I like him, and I think his genuineness is why he's so popular, which sits at odds with the whole "cookie cutter image of what society tries to tell us we are". I feel like liberals try to fit into at LEAST as many cookie cutter boxes, and have to engage in at LEAST as many acts of mental gymnastics and cognitive dissonance to be considered "liberals".
It wasn't always this way, but it is ever more.
I read this book called "Human Nature", by Robert Greene. He's the author of the 48 laws of power, and the art of seduction, etc... I enjoyed the book. Anyway, in the book he talks about group mentalities, and one of the things he said was that if you line up with every position of some political faction, or ideology, your thoughts are not your own (This seems obvious, but it's not, for everyone)... Humans are social creatures, who are easily swept up by group think. We are very tribal in our nature, and love nothing more than to be part of a group. To have a group identity.
If you're a blue-dog Democrat, you're not a free thinker, just as if you're a Republican.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
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the way you hang off and defend joes position in society is weird to me.
do you man.
Edited by mushboy (03/03/23 08:01 AM)
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Kryptos
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Re: Do Republicans trip? [Re: Ajahn Don]
#28212265 - 03/03/23 09:52 AM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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Ajahn Don said: I have been observing Republicans and conservatives--not necessarily the same thing--for decades. They fascinate me because they do not think the same way I think. Not that they have different opinions from my own, my own friends who are liberals have different opinions from me. That doesn't bother me in the slightest. Conservatives' opinions don't bother me, either. They are entitled to their opinions and entitled to expressing them. It is not a question of opinion. My interest is in how they arrive at that opinion.
Conservatives do not form at their opinions in the same way liberals do. Conservatives seem to base their opinions more on emotion than logic. If facts contradict their opinions, they seem to always choose their opinions. Cognitive dissonance is deadly to everyone but appears to be more so for conservatives.
Conservatives almost by definition are more close-minded than liberals, or they would be liberals. My interest in this thread has been to wonder if taking psychedelics might open their minds, change their minds, alter their thinking. Would they even still be conservatives? And how would their minds work during and after tripping?
I know that conservatives' minds do not work the same way liberals' minds work. My interest is what effects psychedelics might have on them, since we know what effects they have on liberals, since it is mostly liberals who try them.
Does this help clear up the "weird post"?
Agree with the fundamentally different ways of thinking, as well as value systems. Actual psychological research backs this up too. Of course, psychological research shows that the biggest factor in conservative/liberal beliefs is fear. Conservatives tend to have physically larger amygdala on their brains, so when conservatives feel fear, it is literally a more powerful emotion than when liberals feel fear.
I fundamentally disagree with the idea that psychedelics open your mind. They change your mind, sure, but I don't see that any differently than the mental changes brought on by meth or heroin. Sure, it's a different effect, but I don't see anything fundamentally different, or transcendental, or spiritual when it comes to psychedelics. I eat mushrooms, I trip balls. I smoke meth, I become 110% man. There's nothing particularly special about psychedelics, apart from my anecdotal experience of them being more...user friendly.
It is a lot harder to use meth constructively, but it can be done. Heck, I'd actually put myself up as a model of constructive meth use...I only use it with a game plan, when I know I need to operate at above my normal abilities for an extended period of time without burning out. Similarly, I am blanking on the name, but there was a famous mathematician who used meth to do math.
Constructive use of psychedelics is easier because they don't have the inherent euphoria/addiction potential combo that makes using something like meth constructively very difficult.
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,322
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Re: Do Republicans trip? [Re: Ajahn Don] 1
#28212629 - 03/03/23 03:00 PM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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I don't watch or listen to Joe Rogan. I only catch his tik tok's. I have never listened or watched something that I found offensive. Like I said I dont follow him. What is the negativity surrounding him?
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“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



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Re: Do Republicans trip? [Re: loladoreen]
#28212654 - 03/03/23 03:25 PM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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loladoreen said: I don't watch or listen to Joe Rogan. I only catch his tik tok's. I have never listened or watched something that I found offensive. Like I said I dont follow him. What is the negativity surrounding him?
From what I gather, people call him a right winger, because he hunts, and is involved in UFC, martial arts... I guess?
Honestly, Joe has become a bit detached from normal people, nowadays, because he is quite wealthy and famous... But in the past couple decades he's built an empire as "America's bro", as they say, by just talking to people and having conversations with people he finds interesting. I used to regularly watch his podcasts, while I was working.. He often has interesting guests on.
I've always liked Joe, and I don't think that is likely to change. He just seems like a good hearted dude... He isn't arrogant, but he's confident in himself, and aware of his own strengths and weaknesses. He talks to a very wide variety of people on his show. He's a comedian, and he has a pretty clean act, but still is quite funny.
Honestly, I think people are jealous that he just gets to be himself, and is almost universally liked by most people, and gets paid exorbitant amounts of money to be himself, basically.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: Do Republicans trip? [Re: mushboy]
#28212657 - 03/03/23 03:30 PM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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mushboy said: the way you hang off and defend joes position in society is weird to me.
do you man.
I don't know what you mean by "hang off"...
I didn't defend his "position in society" at all... So that's kind of... a weird thing to say. I do like that Joe has the position he has in society, because he occasionally brings peoples attention to issues, or political candidates that won't get any coverage via the news media, and I think he treats all of his guests quite fairly, which is something the news media doesn't do.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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loladoreen


Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,322
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Re: Do Republicans trip? [Re: Ajahn Don]
#28212687 - 03/03/23 03:50 PM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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I am vegan and could care less if someone hunts. Do you and I will do me I have never been offended by him. I actually have enjoyed everything I Have seen. I have not seen a lot also. I think everyone has certain things or triggers, that bother them He does not hit any of mine.
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“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: Do Republicans trip? [Re: loladoreen] 2
#28212974 - 03/03/23 06:35 PM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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Conservatives almost by definition are more close-minded than liberals, or they would be liberals. My interest in this thread has been to wonder if taking psychedelics might open their minds, change their minds, alter their thinking. Would they even still be conservatives? And how would their minds work during and after tripping?
I’ve seen heavy psychedelic use lead people down some pretty dark politically based conspiracy rabbit holes that seem almost impossible to unwind. I think it’s important to understand that psychedelics are not a gateway supernatural experiences. Indulging that kind of thinking can fuck people up pretty badly, and cause them to reject reality in a dangerous way
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,555
Loc: Utah
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Re: Do Republicans trip? [Re: Ajahn Don] 1
#28213091 - 03/03/23 08:09 PM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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Bigbadwooof said:
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nooneman said: It's also worth mentioning that psychedelics tend to reinforce preexisting beliefs, making both conservatives and liberals more confident in their political beliefs, as a general rule. They certainly don't tend to switch anyone from one side to the other.
My experience has generally been that people tend to come out more extreme than they go in, whatever their beliefs. Not always that way, but I can't count the number of times someone went in with an attitude like "maybe things are this way, that's possible" and came out "THINGS ARE ABSOLUTELY THAT WAY"
You think so? Maybe it depends on the type of person you are. I feel like strong trips always make me challenge my own beliefs, but I'm the kind of person who will quickly abandon a belief if I feel it has been proven wrong. I like to believe that anyway.
I actually feel the same as you on a personal subjective level thinking about my own experiences, but on the other hand I've seen so many people develop such extreme attitudes after psychedelics that I'm not confident that my personal feelings about it are an accurate reflection of its objective effects, if that makes any sense. Something can subjectively feel challenging, but perhaps lead to objective strengthen of preexisting belief.
There's some reason to believe it might lead to strengthening preexisting belief too, if it does work as a psychological amplifier, or if it enhances the placebo effect, or makes people more open to suggestion, I can see all of those potentially leading to enhancement of preexisting belief.
Even in my own experience, as much as my views have occasionally been challenged, I do remember a number of times where I came out temporarily much more extreme than I went in.
Quote:
Ajahn Don said: Conservatives do not form at their opinions in the same way liberals do. Conservatives seem to base their opinions more on emotion than logic. If facts contradict their opinions, they seem to always choose their opinions. Cognitive dissonance is deadly to everyone but appears to be more so for conservatives.
Conservatives almost by definition are more close-minded than liberals, or they would be liberals.
I know that conservatives' minds do not work the same way liberals' minds work.
I don't think this is an accurate view of conservatives. It's a common view among people on the left, but I don't think it's accurate. I think it's easy to assume that the other political side thinks differently and is less logical and more close minded. I see conservatives say the same kind of stuff about liberals. I think it's maybe an easy way to think about the other side, but actually I bet that the thinking on both sides is surprisingly similar. That's one of the things that makes politics so complex and difficult, actually, is how similar both sides are cognitively.
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Ajahn Don
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Re: Do Republicans trip? [Re: nooneman]
#28213579 - 03/04/23 06:24 AM (10 months, 19 days ago) |
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nooneman said: I don't think this is an accurate view of conservatives. It's a common view among people on the left, but I don't think it's accurate. I think it's easy to assume that the other political side thinks differently and is less logical and more close minded. I see conservatives say the same kind of stuff about liberals. I think it's maybe an easy way to think about the other side, but actually I bet that the thinking on both sides is surprisingly similar. That's one of the things that makes politics so complex and difficult, actually, is how similar both sides are cognitively.
I welcome your conclusions, although I disagree. I do not believe both sides think alike, anymore than opposite sides of a coin are similar because they are on a coin. Yes, conservatives believe liberals are emotional and illogical, and to some degree they would be right, but not to the extreme that conservatives have found themselves. Conservatives are reactionary, by nature (imho), and by definition.
Two areas where conservatives are different:
Curiosity and Empathy
My curiosity is about how psychedelics might affect both of these. We know that psychedelics have an effect on empathy, but I know of no data on how they affect curiosity. Without curiosity, there is no growth. This is why I think they might be better for conservatives than liberals.
-------------------- "He's not altogether dense, but he's not altogether there."
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
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Re: Do Republicans trip? [Re: koods]
#28213645 - 03/04/23 07:43 AM (10 months, 19 days ago) |
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koods said:
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Conservatives almost by definition are more close-minded than liberals, or they would be liberals. My interest in this thread has been to wonder if taking psychedelics might open their minds, change their minds, alter their thinking. Would they even still be conservatives? And how would their minds work during and after tripping?
I’ve seen heavy psychedelic use lead people down some pretty dark politically based conspiracy rabbit holes that seem almost impossible to unwind. I think it’s important to understand that psychedelics are not a gateway supernatural experiences. Indulging that kind of thinking can fuck people up pretty badly, and cause them to reject reality in a dangerous way
This is a good point. I remember a kid I went to highschool with who tripped too much and became obsessed with some kind of weird Tool (The band) cult.. He thought he had some kind of supernatural powers, and one time he told a female police officer that he was going to suspend her body in hell, where demons would rape her for all of eternity...
I've often wondered how he's doing nowadays... Which institution he calls home, a prison, or a mental ward...
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: Do Republicans trip? [Re: Ajahn Don]
#28213656 - 03/04/23 07:48 AM (10 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Ajahn Don said:
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nooneman said: I don't think this is an accurate view of conservatives. It's a common view among people on the left, but I don't think it's accurate. I think it's easy to assume that the other political side thinks differently and is less logical and more close minded. I see conservatives say the same kind of stuff about liberals. I think it's maybe an easy way to think about the other side, but actually I bet that the thinking on both sides is surprisingly similar. That's one of the things that makes politics so complex and difficult, actually, is how similar both sides are cognitively.
I welcome your conclusions, although I disagree. I do not believe both sides think alike, anymore than opposite sides of a coin are similar because they are on a coin. Yes, conservatives believe liberals are emotional and illogical, and to some degree they would be right, but not to the extreme that conservatives have found themselves. Conservatives are reactionary, by nature (imho), and by definition.
Two areas where conservatives are different:
Curiosity and Empathy
My curiosity is about how psychedelics might affect both of these. We know that psychedelics have an effect on empathy, but I know of no data on how they affect curiosity. Without curiosity, there is no growth. This is why I think they might be better for conservatives than liberals.
Here is your disconnect...
"Liberals" and "Conservatives" are all people, and we all fall somewhere on a spectrum. Our brains do function in relatively the exact same ways, fundamentally... There are just different cultural influences. It seems to me that you are saying that conservatives have fundamentally different intellectual faculties, and they do not.
It sort of seems like your are very mildly going down the road of dehumanizing the "other", which is quite dangerous.
Hallucinogens have the same objective effects on the brain for liberals, and conservatives.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Sulfurshelfsean
Defender of Cubes


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Oh my God, when ten thousand days came out there were so many townies on that culty bandwagon. The idea started out as a joke by Maynard, to make fun of scientology I believe, and not all his fans knew it was a joke.
One of my best friends who passed fairly recently was one of those people who thought he had crazy powers. He has signs of schizophrenia and all kinds of trauma in his past. He had some of the best connections in town and at lot of drugs. I remember when he went on a several month coke and dmt bender.
He spent most of his time sitting in the rain or trasjing this big rv he had on the property acting like he was doing daoist magic, writing glyphs on everything. It was some of the craziest shit I'd seen and it ended with his door getting kicked in by some armed police and held at gunpoint because someone thought he was dangerous.
Dude ate his own feces in one bender, supposedly to prove something to himself. He had a "daoist priest" (biggest charlatan I've met personally, who was using my buddy for shelter and feeding his ego to keep him confused) living with him reaffirming his misled spiritual beliefs. And sooooo many people in town (Woodstock NY) stoked this idea that he was some sort of spiritual anomaly.
He died of a heroin overdose about two years ago now. He thought he could transmute poison in his body into good compounds.
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   Everything is better when it is done ON TOP OF A MOUNTAIN!
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Bigbadwooof
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Registered: 12/07/13
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Quote:
Sulfurshelfsean said: Oh my God, when ten thousand days came out there were so many townies on that culty bandwagon. The idea started out as a joke by Maynard, to make fun of scientology I believe, and not all his fans knew it was a joke.
One of my best friends who passed fairly recently was one of those people who thought he had crazy powers. He has signs of schizophrenia and all kinds of trauma in his past. He had some of the best connections in town and at lot of drugs. I remember when he went on a several month coke and dmt bender.
Ten Thousand Days... I guess I have to watch that now. I loved tool, when I was younger. Their new stuff is... not as good.. of course.. They came out with an album a couple years ago, after like 15-20 years of nothing afaik.
I never knew where all of his weird shit came from, but he was one of those guys that could get people onboard with his bullshit, because he had that sort of personality. Maybe it was his conviction. The kind of guy that starts religious cults...
Quote:
He spent most of his time sitting in the rain or trasjing this big rv he had on the property acting like he was doing daoist magic, writing glyphs on everything. It was some of the craziest shit I'd seen and it ended with his door getting kicked in by some armed police and held at gunpoint because someone thought he was dangerous.
Dude ate his own feces in one bender, supposedly to prove something to himself. He had a "daoist priest" (biggest charlatan I've met personally, who was using my buddy for shelter and feeding his ego to keep him confused) living with him reaffirming his misled spiritual beliefs. And sooooo many people in town (Woodstock NY) stoked this idea that he was some sort of spiritual anomaly.
He died of a heroin overdose about two years ago now. He thought he could transmute poison in his body into good compounds.
That's quite a story, and sad too. That's pretty much how I imagine it went with my childhood friend.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (03/04/23 08:38 AM)
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