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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Prisoner torture 'not sanctioned'
    #2820204 - 06/23/04 10:23 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Surely there is finally proof the abuse at Abu Ghraib was approved by the top brass.  :rolleyes:


Quote:



Our nation recognises that this new paradigm - ushered in not by us, but by terrorists - requires new thinking in the law of war.

I accept the legal conclusion of the attorney general and the Department of Justice that I have the authority under the Constitution to suspend Geneva as between the United States and Afghanistan, but I decline to exercise that authority at this time.


Memo signed by President Bush, 7 Feb 2002


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


We conclude that neither the federal War Crimes Act nor the Geneva Conventions would apply to the detention conditions of al-Qaeda prisoners.

We also conclude that the president has the plenary constitutional power to suspend our treaty obligations toward Afghanistan during the period of the conflict.

He may exercise that discretion on the basis that Afghanistan was a failed state.

Justice Dept memo, 22 Jan 2002


--------------------------------------------------------------------------


I have discussed this with the Deputy, Dough Feith and General Myers.

I believe that all join in my recommendation that, as a matter of policy, you authorise [...] only Categories I and II and the fourth technique listed in Category III ("mild, non-injurious physical contact such as grabbing, poking in the chest with the finger and light pushing").

Handwritten annotation signed D. Rumsfeld I stand for 8-10 hours a day. Why is standing limited to 4 hours?

[...]

Category II techniques:

(1) the use of stress positions (like standing), for a maximum of four hours.

(2) The use of falsified documents or reports.

(3) Use of isolation facility for up to 30 days.

(4) Interrogation of the detainee in an environment other than the standard interrogation booth.

(5) Deprivation of light and auditory stimuli.

(6) The detainee may also have a hood placed over his head during transportation and questioning. The hood should not restrict breathing in any way and the detainee should be under direct observation when hooded.

(7) The use of 20-hour interrogation.

(8) Removal of all comfort items (including religious items).

(9) Switching the detainee from hot rations to MREs (meals ready to eat).

(10) Removal of clothing. (This was later removed)

(11) Forced grooming (shaving of facial hair, etc).

(12) Using detainee individual phobias (such as fear of dogs) to induce stress.

Defence Dept memo, 2 Dec 2002






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OfflineSlackerKM
Unusual suspect

Registered: 05/15/04
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Re: Prisoner torture 'not sanctioned' [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2821030 - 06/23/04 03:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Hmmm, I can find any mention of anal rape or photography in that list. Abu Ghraib was a just a huge blunder in my opinion. They had soldiers trained as mechanics and weekend warriors guarding prisoners, for god's sake! The sheltered prison environment didn't help either. During ww2 almost all of our POW camps were open-air and guarded by actual MPs, and almost no abuses occured.


--------------------

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a night. Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: Prisoner torture 'not sanctioned' [Re: SlackerKM]
    #2821038 - 06/23/04 03:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

They had soldiers trained as mechanics and weekend warriors guarding prisoners, for god's sake




that really doesn't mean a thing. ALL soldiers are infintry men and are trained in what to do with prisoners. The result would of been no different if they were MP's


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Prisoner torture 'not sanctioned' [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2821041 - 06/23/04 03:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

MP are trained to handle prisoners without causing harm to them, I don't think these soldiers knew what to do.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Prisoner torture 'not sanctioned' [Re: downforpot]
    #2821068 - 06/23/04 03:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I disagree. I believe they were just plain bad soldiers. Everyone, even civilians, know that you don't pile people up into a big homo pile. The orders didn't come from the average soldier anyway.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Prisoner torture 'not sanctioned' [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2821078 - 06/23/04 03:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If I worked there, I'd probably do some fucked up shit too just for the fuck of it.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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InvisibleDieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 28,149
Re: Prisoner torture 'not sanctioned' [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2821080 - 06/23/04 03:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Everyone, even civilians, know that you don't pile people up into a big homo pile.


I dont think everyone knows that.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Prisoner torture 'not sanctioned' [Re: downforpot]
    #2821096 - 06/23/04 03:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If I worked there, I'd probably do some fucked up shit too just for the fuck of it.




I can honestly say I wouldn't. It gives the U.S. Soldier a bad name.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Re: Prisoner torture 'not sanctioned' [Re: DieCommie]
    #2821102 - 06/23/04 03:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I dont think everyone knows that.




They knew, they just didn't give a shit.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,186
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Prisoner torture 'not sanctioned' [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2821381 - 06/23/04 04:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Read the Geneva Convention. It specifically does not apply to terrorists.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Prisoner torture 'not sanctioned' [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2821535 - 06/23/04 05:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If it specifically does not apply to terrorists, then I guess it's every1 for themselves (sux to be a terrorist).


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Prisoner torture 'not sanctioned' [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2821644 - 06/23/04 06:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

To be a follower of Christ (as Bush claims), the teachings of love and compassion supercede any such legal and political finanglings.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Registered: 04/14/04
Posts: 399
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Re: Prisoner torture 'not sanctioned' [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2821721 - 06/23/04 06:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

st0nedphucker said:
I believe that all join in my recommendation that, as a matter of policy, you authorise [...] only Categories I and II and the fourth technique listed in Category III ("mild, non-injurious physical contact such as grabbing, poking in the chest with the finger and light pushing").




My God, Rummy allowed these men to be poked in the chest! WITH A FINGER! TO THE GALLOWS, GOEBBLES!
Quote:


(1) the use of stress positions (like standing), for a maximum of four hours.




Shifts at Mcdonalds are about 6 hours long, and they seem to be standing.
Quote:


(2) The use of falsified documents or reports.




You mean he wants us to LIE to terrorist? AND POKE THEM IN THE CHEST! WITH A FINGER! EVIL INCARNATE IS HE!
Quote:


(3) Use of isolation facility for up to 30 days.




Just like in American prisons
Quote:


(4) Interrogation of the detainee in an environment other than the standard interrogation booth.
(5) Deprivation of light and auditory stimuli.
(6) The detainee may also have a hood placed over his head during transportation and questioning. The hood should not restrict breathing in any way and the detainee should be under direct observation when hooded.
(7) The use of 20-hour interrogation.
Quote:


No light / sound, a hood, and 20 hour interrogation. Who cares?
Quote:


(8) Removal of all comfort items (including religious items).




Now Mohammed the Desert Terrorist can't have his teddy bear!
Quote:


(9) Switching the detainee from hot rations to MREs (meals ready to eat).




Treating them the same as we treat our own soldiers? Rumsfeld is the love child of hitler and satan!
Quote:


(11) Forced grooming (shaving of facial hair, etc).




lol
Quote:


(12) Using detainee individual phobias (such as fear of dogs) to induce stress.




Tons of bitching about this, but hardly any concern about the subhumans beheaing people. What a fucked up world.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Prisoner torture 'not sanctioned' [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2821819 - 06/23/04 07:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Must have been a helluva finger poke to kill detainees in Gitmo, Iraq and Afghanistan. Is this like one of those Ninja dimak death-touch finger pokes?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Prisoner torture 'not sanctioned' [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2823134 - 06/24/04 05:01 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I assume the majority of your points are not directed at me in particular, therefore I haven't responded to all of them.

Quote:

No light / sound, a hood, and 20 hour interrogation. Who cares?




Hooding prisoners dehumanizes them, this not only has a psychological effect on the prisoners but also on those interrogating/guarding them. I have no major objections to prisoners being hooded, although I would imagine it's easier to abuse someone when you don't have to look at them face to face.

As for sensory deprivation, it's used in almost every country..

Quote:

Tons of bitching about this, but hardly any concern about the subhumans beheaing people. What a fucked up world




Not sure you what you're trying to say here. The abuse that took place at Abu Ghraib was repulsive as is the beheading of an innocent hostage, I find both deplorable.

Are you suggesting we should torture prisoners to exact revenge or to obtain some sense of justice?

As for the subhuman remark, you are referring to terrorists right? You may want to consider your choice of words unless you have the desire to be associated with Nazism.  :smirk:

Quote:

Hmmm, I can find any mention of anal rape or photography in that list. Abu Ghraib was a just a huge blunder in my opinion. They had soldiers trained as mechanics and weekend warriors guarding prisoners, for god's sake! The sheltered prison environment didn't help either. During ww2 almost all of our POW camps were open-air and guarded by actual MPs, and almost no abuses occured.




I agree to a certain extent, obviously some abuses took place. However British soldiers who were imprisoned in Auschwitz describe being treated relavtively well where as Hungarian and other eastern european prisoners were often executed along with the Jews.

This leads me to believe that a few Amercian soldiers view the prisoners as inferior, much like the Nazi's did the Jews.
Whether this view stems from ethinicity, religion or just the simple 'because I can' attitude I do not know.


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Registered: 04/14/04
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Re: Prisoner torture 'not sanctioned' [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2823369 - 06/24/04 08:33 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

st0nedphucker said:
Not sure you what you're trying to say here. The abuse that took place at Abu Ghraib was repulsive as is the beheading of an innocent hostage, I find both deplorable.




The unsanctioned behavior of a few people is as bad as having a man talk about his family, then cutting his fucking head off?
Quote:


Are you suggesting we should torture prisoners to exact revenge or to obtain some sense of justice?




No. I'm saying that we should put events in perspective, not simply bash the Americans / Bush's at any opportunity.
Quote:


As for the subhuman remark, you are referring to terrorists right? You may want to consider your choice of words unless you have the desire to be associated with Nazism.  :smirk:




Your little labels won't upset me at all. I don't think that anyone that values theocratic dictatorship over democracy is a human being.


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Prisoner torture 'not sanctioned' [Re: Swami]
    #2823372 - 06/24/04 08:35 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Must have been a helluva finger poke to kill detainees in Gitmo, Iraq and Afghanistan. Is this like one of those Ninja dimak death-touch finger pokes?




Whatever it was that was done was not done WITH AUTHORIZATION. That is the point of this. If I tell you that it's ok to push someone around, and you cut off his hands and feet and toss him into a wood chipper, certainly you woudln't say that I sanctioned that, right? Maybe looking at the "topic" where it uses the word "sanction" woudl have helped you out here a little bit.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Prisoner torture 'not sanctioned' [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2823515 - 06/24/04 10:28 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

For many decades, abuses were allowed and encouraged in Marine boot camp training until an "accidentally" killed recruit's parents sued the Marines; then things toned down quite a bit. Was there any documentation or regulations that supported the activities that lead to the young man's death? Any specific orders? No.

Were the brass aware of what was going on and silently condoning these hazing practices? Most certainly.

One does not get to be a top-ranked brass by being blind & stupid.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Prisoner torture 'not sanctioned' [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2823552 - 06/24/04 10:57 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The unsanctioned behavior of a few people is as bad as having a man talk about his family, then cutting his fucking head off?




What do you class as 'unsanctioned behaviour'? Making someone strip then harrassing them with a dog, sexually abusing them, beating them to death...

Where do you draw the line? When is it, in your opinion, on par with beheading someone?

Quote:

No. I'm saying that we should put events in perspective, not simply bash the Americans / Bush's at any opportunity.




Who's bashing Bush or the Americans, I haven't even mentioned good ol George .

Quote:

Your little labels won't upset me at all. I don't think that anyone that values theocratic dictatorship over democracy is a human being.




...


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Prisoner torture 'not sanctioned' [Re: Swami]
    #2823690 - 06/24/04 12:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
For many decades, abuses were allowed and encouraged in Marine boot camp training until an "accidentally" killed recruit's parents sued the Marines; then things toned down quite a bit. Was there any documentation or regulations that supported the activities that lead to the young man's death? Any specific orders? No.




Source?
Quote:


Were the brass aware of what was going on and silently condoning these hazing practices? Most certainly.




Proof?


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