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ballsalsa
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At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries?
#28200910 - 02/23/23 04:12 PM (10 months, 28 days ago) |
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Or incorporating them into state governments? How many towns will we let pg&e burn down? How many chemical laden freight trains should derail? How many coal ash ponds should we allow to drain into local rivers?
Etc.
It seems obvious to me that energy generation/transmission and rail shipping should be on the table. What other industries could yield better results for the public if nationalized?
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Ice9
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa] 2
#28200913 - 02/23/23 04:14 PM (10 months, 28 days ago) |
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Healthcare
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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koods
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa] 2
#28200920 - 02/23/23 04:16 PM (10 months, 28 days ago) |
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Generation private. Transmission public. Railroads public. Trains private.
All the natural monopolies should be public
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koods
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Ice9] 1
#28200923 - 02/23/23 04:17 PM (10 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Ice9 said: Healthcare

You don’t need to nationalize the entire healthcare industry, just payment.
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: koods]
#28200940 - 02/23/23 04:26 PM (10 months, 28 days ago) |
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Trains cannot be private on a fully public railroad system, because it actively kills train innovation. Specifically, because the slowest wagon sets the speed limit on rail, it actually kind of rewards having the shittiest, slowest, most cheaply maintained wagon on the tracks, because rails have no passing lane.
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koods
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28200973 - 02/23/23 04:42 PM (10 months, 28 days ago) |
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You can set speed limits. Problem solved. Next?
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Enlil
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa]
#28201027 - 02/23/23 05:07 PM (10 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: What other industries could yield better results for the public if nationalized?
I don't think rail and energy would yield better results if public. We don't have a lot of examples of publicly owned service organizations that are efficient and well-run. If anything, we mostly have examples of the opposite being true, from current public utilities like the LADWP to Amtrak.
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ballsalsa
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil] 1
#28201037 - 02/23/23 05:12 PM (10 months, 28 days ago) |
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LADWP outperforms Edison by virtually every metric and contributes profits directly to funding the city while also paying it's workers better.
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Enlil
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa]
#28201044 - 02/23/23 05:16 PM (10 months, 28 days ago) |
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"virtually" every metric must not include cost. Moving into Los angeles proper quadrupled my electric bill. Of course, they send me half as many bills, so it only amount to doubling...
Still..that's excessive
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ballsalsa
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
#28201055 - 02/23/23 05:22 PM (10 months, 28 days ago) |
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Stay out of tier three 
That said, when was the last time DWP set the state on fire?
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Enlil
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa] 2
#28201057 - 02/23/23 05:23 PM (10 months, 28 days ago) |
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Uh...you say that like it's a bad thing.
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: koods]
#28201147 - 02/23/23 06:14 PM (10 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: You can set speed limits. Problem solved. Next?
No, problem not solved. British Rail tried this, and it did not work.
This is only a small example of the many, many, many possible shenanigans that a private train can undertake on a public rail, because, once again, there is no passing rail.
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The Blind Ass
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28201426 - 02/23/23 08:22 PM (10 months, 28 days ago) |
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@ OP: ASAP...wrt trains/railways...just so long as we get the supped up version of this baby.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Blind Ass]
#28201991 - 02/24/23 06:35 AM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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The vast majority of US is laid out for privately owned vehicles to commute to and fro notwithstanding the culture of cars therein. I don't see rail/ better public transport for awhile. Now my exposure to the younger generations seems like cars and getting ones drivers licenses is low on the rung, so that may change.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Brian Jones
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28202023 - 02/24/23 07:02 AM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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I have mixed feelings about nationalizing vital industries. At some moral level it seems wrong for shareholders to profit from them. Then it comes down to the government being able to do the job without competition. If they did that would be preferable, but in the real world government is often inefficient, and public and private sectors both have bad actors and corruption.
It would be an interesting social experiment to intentionally split a vital industry between public and private. That could introduce a couple levels of competition, and maybe both would be incentivized for better performance. But I'm not prone to optimism, so probably not.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Brian Jones]
#28202084 - 02/24/23 08:15 AM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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Sometimes things don't need to be efficient.
Running electricity to a town of less than a thousand people is inefficient as fuck, but we do it anyway. Running roads to towns smaller than 5k is an inefficient waste of taxpayer money, but we do it anyway. Those towns can't afford to support the infrastructure required to have electricity and roads.
Why are we suddenly so hung up on efficiency when it comes to rail?
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Enlil
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos] 1
#28202089 - 02/24/23 08:20 AM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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Because shipping is more important than ever and will continue to become more important. As you've said...there is no passing lane, so keeping the trains moving efficiently is crucial to our way of life.
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
#28202094 - 02/24/23 08:23 AM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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I think we're talking about two different types of efficiency here...one being the efficiency of trains per hour and the other being the efficiency of laying track that will have few trains per hour.
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Enlil
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28202098 - 02/24/23 08:27 AM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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Those are means to an end. Efficiency means more freight travels to its destination in a given time span at a given cost in money and human suffering. Whether that means more tracks, longer/faster trains...those are details, my friend.
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#28202105 - 02/24/23 08:30 AM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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Amtrak is a quasi-public corporation that receives subsidies but still must turn a profit. It also doesn't own the vast majority of the track it runs on. Those two facts account for most of its issues.
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Enlil
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: B Traven]
#28202108 - 02/24/23 08:31 AM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
B Traven said: Amtrak is a quasi-public corporation that receives subsidies but still must turn a profit. It also doesn't own the vast majority of the track it runs on. Those two facts account for most of its issues.
There are more than two facts in your post. I have no idea which two you're referring to.
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B Traven
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil] 1
#28202110 - 02/24/23 08:34 AM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
B Traven said: Amtrak is a quasi-public corporation that receives subsidies but still must turn a profit. It also doesn't own the vast majority of the track it runs on. Those two facts account for most of its issues.
There are more than two facts in your post. I have no idea which two you're referring to.
Ah, right. This isn't a real conversation. Just an annoying "debate."
Nevermind.
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: B Traven]
#28202115 - 02/24/23 08:36 AM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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Thanks for playing.
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil] 1
#28202378 - 02/24/23 11:16 AM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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Don't get me started on traffic issues and that nonsense some of you people should be put in fucking jail because your clearly too fucking stupid to learn how to drive in a modern society. But of course I'm the asshole for going fast right sorry my brain doesn't work as slow as yours or whatever issue is. As far as nationalizing industries I've always seen it as much more healthy to let the market decide the trajectory of major industry while maintaining a healthy oversight to protect the little guy foster development and weed out any backhand dealing. Is it perfect? Absolutely not but the alternative is much worse.
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Brian Jones
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: B Traven] 1
#28202384 - 02/24/23 11:29 AM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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Amtrac has always operated at a loss. It's improved the bottom line but still loses close to a billion dollars per year. It being a quasi-public is kind of a technicality. The federal government owns most of the company's shares, because who would buy them? It subsidized by the states as well.
Kryptos mentioned providing vital services to small towns. Economies of scale are not possible in those situations, but otherwise, efficiency would be a goal whether the service is public or privately owned. Generally, the government only steps in when a service is considered vital and can't operate at a profit. Another example would be the postal service.
At one time private passenger rail moved 98% of intercity travelers. As more highways were built and car ownership increased, that percentage continuously declined. Amtrac was federally mandated because intercity passenger rail travel became unprofitable, and the private providers left the market.
Kryptos asked why the hangup with efficiency in the railroad industry. Unlike passenger rail, freight rail is profitable. Trucks and trains are both vital to the economy, and trains are many times more cost efficient for moving freight long distances. Warren Buffet bought the BNSF RR which is largest in U.S. He commented that trucks have reached their peak of efficiency and trains have not. Other big investors disagree, but Buffet bet big on his opinion.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Randar
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Brian Jones]
#28202421 - 02/24/23 11:59 AM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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Energy generation should be public. The private sector has proven too many times that they are only in it for the profits and are very short-sighted. Recent case in point, a decision to shut down nuclear plants due to the historically low cost of natural gas. It doesn't take a genius to know that prices fluctuate.
Air travel should also be public. Privatization of air travel has been a mess. $ are always put above customer satisfaction.
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Randar
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Randar]
#28202435 - 02/24/23 12:05 PM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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And definitely healthcare as well.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Randar]
#28202531 - 02/24/23 01:05 PM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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I am on the fence. The closest thing to government run Healthcare in the US is the military and the Department of VA. Not the highest degree of standards. Hard to keep good surgens and the like when they can make x4 outside.Ask people their experince with US government run Healthcare.
The government makes very little; even making "air" public, the private sector is gonna still be making everything.....unless you feel there should be government run airplane manufacturing plants(thats just one)....owned and operated.
Just that infastructure alone would take years and years. All that would change is the insignia of United Airlines/Delta to the insignia of the US government. Could they run it better? What recourse would citizens have for being bumped from a flight/ delayed? Probably less then what's offered now.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (02/24/23 01:07 PM)
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Enlil
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28202591 - 02/24/23 01:42 PM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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My power has been out for two hours... thanks LADWP
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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
#28202709 - 02/24/23 02:38 PM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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Using a generator so you can still Mod, that's dedication. Maybe you can shed light on the matter.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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The Ecstatic
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#28202742 - 02/24/23 02:59 PM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: What other industries could yield better results for the public if nationalized?
All of them.
But I’d settle for major sectors: defense, transportation, energy, education, healthcare, housing, food.
--------------------
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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28202801 - 02/24/23 03:39 PM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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With that, how would that work?
Government would be in charge of the full manufacturing process....from raw material to finished product?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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The Ecstatic
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28202871 - 02/24/23 04:22 PM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: With that, how would that work?
Government would be in charge of the full manufacturing process....from raw material to finished product?
It’s easy, instead of giving a huge slice of productivity to some monocle-wearing dipshit who doesn’t do anything we just guarantee a more efficient product/service.
We’re already subsidizing a lot of this stuff anyway, it’s high time we reap the benefits of our investment.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28202873 - 02/24/23 04:23 PM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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Oh yeah, speaking of nationalizing industry in California, isn’t Newsom supposed to be working on manufacturing insulin for the state? Or is that one of those things they all just say and never do like high speed rail?
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ballsalsa
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic] 2
#28202889 - 02/24/23 04:31 PM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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Listen Jack, there's a budget deficit this year and we have to tighten our belts. No more pie in the sky commie shit like affordable insulin for people who need it to live.
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mycosis


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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa] 3
#28202895 - 02/24/23 04:35 PM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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Pie is the gawd damn problem! Motherfuckers should have thought about eating a vegetable every now and then!
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28203067 - 02/24/23 06:32 PM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: With that, how would that work?
Government would be in charge of the full manufacturing process....from raw material to finished product?
I think that's pretty reasonable for several industries, actually. Specifically, I think most anything military related should be done in-house, and yes, this means from government owned iron mines all the way to nationalized Raytheon. Honestly, using private companies to supply the military seems to me like someone that's begging to have classified shit revealed, or have their military otherwise fucked with economically.
Either case, to prevent possible leakage, those companies are extremely heavily regulated, I'd argue they're basically nationalized already. Except for the executive pay structure. Which we could probably do with reining in.
Insulating the military supply chain from the vagaries of the outside world as much as possible seems like a no-brainer, to ensure adequate and uninterrupted supply. Maybe use private contracts to cover emergency needs, but if you're buying M4s from colt or whatever for more than a decade, maybe it's time to build your own M4 factory.
Otherwise, I think there is an argument to be made in favor of nationalizing any industry that cannot be profitably run in a town of less than, let's say 1,000. Which basically means electricity, water, water treatment, internet, rail, roads, communications, post office, banks, libraries, schools...I think that's about it? What am I missing?
I don't think we should nationalize, for example, the pizza place down the street. Ecstatic might be going a bit too far when he says all of the industries. The pizza industry can stay private.
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millzy


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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic] 3
#28203178 - 02/24/23 07:44 PM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
ballsalsa said: What other industries could yield better results for the public if nationalized?
All of them.
But I’d settle for major sectors: defense, transportation, energy, education, healthcare, housing, food.
i agree - defense, transportation, energy, education, and healthcare should be nationalized.
we also need to remove the financial barriers to worker ownership. there have been less than 2,000 co-ops in the history of the US, and that's because banks will not lend to them. they aren't as profitable to lend to from the banks' perspective. but if co-ops were the standard model, these businesses would drive major reforms to our political system in the same way massive privately owned businesses drive legislative agendas today.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28203621 - 02/25/23 07:50 AM (10 months, 26 days ago) |
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It comes down to efficiency (in this case producing technologically superior goods for the military); is a profit motive more efficient or the government taking the reins? The government could possibly be more fiscally, but as far producing the good or service, not so.
With all the flaws of the military industrial complex, there is no question the one in the US has been top dog for quite sometime. It's hard to beat that track record, or usurp it.Just the lag time needed to facilitate the transfer from private to the government would put the US behind the power curve. In fact, China in the last two decades turned to their own private sector for their own military industrial complex; less state control and look whats happened.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Enlil
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28203657 - 02/25/23 08:23 AM (10 months, 26 days ago) |
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That's true in any field where innovation drives competition. Sure, the government can adequately run a power plant. Is the federal government going to effectively fund and manage R&D to find cutting edge technologies to improve electricity generation? No. Innovation has always come from the private sector.
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ballsalsa
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil] 1
#28203661 - 02/25/23 08:28 AM (10 months, 26 days ago) |
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Private sector R&D is just last mile commercialization of products. All the actual research is done by or funded by the government
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Enlil
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa]
#28203677 - 02/25/23 08:39 AM (10 months, 26 days ago) |
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Funded, sure. Done by? No.
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Skellies


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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#28203731 - 02/25/23 09:14 AM (10 months, 26 days ago) |
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I don't think we can just write off actual rubber meets the road applications of knowledge as not a part of actual research. Researching how we can implement new ideas/concepts is often what gives them value to society.
Even if you write off development though, basic and applied research are both majorly funded by private and public sources.
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Brian Jones
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Skellies]
#28203757 - 02/25/23 09:33 AM (10 months, 26 days ago) |
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I don't think a highly publicized train accident here or there is going to result in the government takeover of a highly profitable industry. Are there examples of something like that?
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falcon



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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
#28204562 - 02/25/23 07:06 PM (10 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: That's true in any field where innovation drives competition. Sure, the government can adequately run a power plant. Is the federal government going to effectively fund and manage R&D to find cutting edge technologies to improve electricity generation? No. Innovation has always come from the private sector.
Penn State has made improvements that are now used by commercial mushroom farmers. Innovation may come from the private sector.
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil] 1
#28204571 - 02/25/23 07:15 PM (10 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: That's true in any field where innovation drives competition. Sure, the government can adequately run a power plant. Is the federal government going to effectively fund and manage R&D to find cutting edge technologies to improve electricity generation? No. Innovation has always come from the private sector.
Monetization and innovation are two different things.
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nooneman


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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#28204600 - 02/25/23 07:36 PM (10 months, 26 days ago) |
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In general, I don't see the government doing a better job than private industry. Instead, if there's a monopoly on something, that monopoly should be broken up somehow. Maybe in some cases that involves regulation, or laws, it depends on the situation.
Having said that, there are certain basic services that IMO the government should provide, like police, fire, road maintenance, and the assignment of addresses to houses (among other things, this is not all, these are just examples). Everything in moderation. Prisons are a good example of something where despite inefficiency the government really needs to be the only one running them. Private for profit prisons are an absolute nightmare and lead to lots of bad stuff, like the companies involved lobbying for harsher sentences and harsher laws so they can line their pockets.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil] 1
#28204946 - 02/26/23 05:27 AM (10 months, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Funded, sure. Done by? No.
Capitalism works best because it drives innovation (provided the government bankrolls all of it).
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Enlil
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28205053 - 02/26/23 08:07 AM (10 months, 25 days ago) |
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You do love you some capitalism.
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil] 2
#28206941 - 02/27/23 03:21 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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One of the biggest arguments in favor of privatizing British rail was that it cost so much. It was coming in at about 2.5B per year (adjusted to 2018 dollars, spoilers) back in 1985, which was very expensive. So they privatized it to run it cheaper. Now, there are eight companies that run British rail, collectively...collecting 7.1B (as of 2018!) in subsidies from the government to run a substantially similar network.
Ah, the efficiency of private ownership.
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Enlil
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28206948 - 02/27/23 03:27 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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That's more people making better wages. Sounds like a great outcome to me.
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ballsalsa
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
#28206969 - 02/27/23 03:42 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Source?
I didn't see any data to indicate that the average railway worker's wage increased or that the total number of workers increased substantially. Not saying you're wrong, I just don't see how you came to that conclusion.
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starfire_xes
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa]
#28206976 - 02/27/23 03:45 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Oh yeah. Let the government run everything, because the government are pros at running industries.
Also, what is a vital industry? Define:
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Psilynut2
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: starfire_xes]
#28207032 - 02/27/23 04:37 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Trains , it's vital to our natl security and our economy .
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Enlil
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa]
#28207036 - 02/27/23 04:45 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: Source?
I didn't see any data to indicate that the average railway worker's wage increased or that the total number of workers increased substantially. Not saying you're wrong, I just don't see how you came to that conclusion.
Every dollar spent goes to someone's income.
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ballsalsa
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
#28207041 - 02/27/23 04:48 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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You're right, of course. There's no difference to society whether the extra 5 billion gets split 50 or 50,000 ways.
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Enlil
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa]
#28207048 - 02/27/23 04:53 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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I didn't say that, but it's interesting that you did.
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ballsalsa
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
#28207101 - 02/27/23 05:45 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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How so?
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa]
#28207176 - 02/27/23 06:46 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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I mean i trust your brilliance, so if you believe that, it must have some truth to it.
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ballsalsa
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
#28207187 - 02/27/23 06:55 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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My clear sarcasm was in response to your implication that excessive bloat caused by privatization is a net benefit by virtue of generating "higher wages" for "more people". Maybe that was just my perception and you weren't trying to say that at all?
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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa]
#28207211 - 02/27/23 07:12 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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How about some examples of industries that went from privatization to government in which it is both innovative and efficient? Not going to lie, I don't know.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa]
#28207212 - 02/27/23 07:13 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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The parent company of one of the parent companies of one of the primary train operators in the UK, Deutsche Bahn, reported total revenue of 45B in 2019. I did not check their CEO's pay structure, but it should be in their public filings, right?
The UK government is paying executive salaries in a German train company.
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot] 1
#28207224 - 02/27/23 07:20 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: How about some examples of industries that went from privatization to government in which it is both innovative and efficient? Not going to lie, I don't know.
Do roads count? They went from private to, I'd say, pretty nationalized. Asphalt innovation has also continued, to the point where it is nearly 100% recyclable. You pour 10kg of asphalt road, ten years later you scrape up 10kg of ready to use asphalt road.
Edited by Kryptos (02/27/23 07:26 PM)
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The Ecstatic
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot] 1
#28207232 - 02/27/23 07:22 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: How about some examples of industries that went from privatization to government in which it is both innovative and efficient? Not going to lie, I don't know.
Efficient is typically defined as “making money for shareholders,” which publicly ran enterprises do not do, by definition.
And that’s why it’s so easy to demonize them.
When people say “the post office loses money,” they’re implying it was ever a goal for it to make money. Nobody ever says “the military loses money” because it’s understood that the military is a public service (ostensibly).
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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28207253 - 02/27/23 07:38 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: How about some examples of industries that went from privatization to government in which it is both innovative and efficient? Not going to lie, I don't know.
Do roads count? They went from private to, I'd say, pretty nationalized. Asphalt innovation has also continued, to the point where it is nearly 100% recyclable. You pour 10kg of asphalt road, ten years later you scrape up 10kg of ready to use asphalt road.
Aren't roads done by private companies via state or federal contract? Who developed the recycle capability for the asphalt?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28207259 - 02/27/23 07:41 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: How about some examples of industries that went from privatization to government in which it is both innovative and efficient? Not going to lie, I don't know.
Efficient is typically defined as “making money for shareholders,” which publicly ran enterprises do not do, by definition.
And that’s why it’s so easy to demonize them.
When people say “the post office loses money,” they’re implying it was ever a goal for it to make money. Nobody ever says “the military loses money” because it’s understood that the military is a public service (ostensibly).
I thought (correct me if I am wrong) one of the issues you raised was that privatization had a fiscal component (something something dude with the monocle) that was unnecessary, like the income compensation for an executive. So if the government spent or wasted more, that would not matter?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Enlil
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28207260 - 02/27/23 07:42 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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The post office doesn't lose money though.
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ballsalsa
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
#28207327 - 02/27/23 08:16 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Nope, and Congress forces the post office to loan them money every year
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The Ecstatic
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot] 2
#28207330 - 02/27/23 08:18 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: How about some examples of industries that went from privatization to government in which it is both innovative and efficient? Not going to lie, I don't know.
Efficient is typically defined as “making money for shareholders,” which publicly ran enterprises do not do, by definition.
And that’s why it’s so easy to demonize them.
When people say “the post office loses money,” they’re implying it was ever a goal for it to make money. Nobody ever says “the military loses money” because it’s understood that the military is a public service (ostensibly).
I thought (correct me if I am wrong) one of the issues you raised was that privatization had a fiscal component (something something dude with the monocle) that was unnecessary, like the income compensation for an executive. So if the government spent or wasted more, that would not matter?
It would matter, I’m just saying it’s more difficult to quantify efficiency because that isn’t how we view public services.
For example, we are told endlessly that a universal single-payer healthcare system isn’t feasible because it would cost trillions of dollars, but this sidesteps the fact that our current (mostly) privatized system costs much more. We tend to view the market as the natural state of things, so when you ask some random American why universal healthcare is a nonstarter they’ll tell you it’s because their taxes will go up $5,000 a year, ignoring the other side of the equation where their privatized deductibles, copays, etc will decrease by $7,000 a year.
All things being equal, removing the profit component of something and putting that back into the service itself (or just reducing taxpayer expense) virtually guarantees a higher level of efficiency. If I sell you a widget for $15 because I decided I need to profit $3 from it, and you nationalize my widget business, you no longer need to account for that $3 I’m skimming off the top, so widgets will either cost $12 now, or they’ll be $15 but with a higher quality.
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28207737 - 02/28/23 06:56 AM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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The 3 dollar profit is the purpose and impetus for the widget itself(that is,the major one coming from a private company). That would leave the government to provide the widget with the only incentive (or endgame) being a lower cost to the citizen. (In your example)
What if its shit? The citizens of that government only recourse would be to accept it until the government made a better product by voting in a more competent people or retooling; and would be unable to vote in real time with thier capital in that instance.
Let's say a a government is able to provide all things innovative,efficient, and sound. How would trade work? Would the government prevent foreign goods/services, made by private companies from entering the market...would the government purchase these goods/services to resell(or tax)to the populace?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot] 1
#28207778 - 02/28/23 07:44 AM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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As someone who has owned a 20 year old microwave, tragically lost it, and bought several new microwaves over the last ten years...
You cannot possibly tell me that the free market incentives the construction of less shit, because microwaves are a clear example of products becoming shittier because they can.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28207788 - 02/28/23 07:51 AM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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You get what you pay for...from the eighties:
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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starfire_xes
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28207838 - 02/28/23 08:55 AM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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More competent employees in government?

😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
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The Ecstatic
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot] 2
#28207945 - 02/28/23 10:17 AM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: The 3 dollar profit is the purpose and impetus for the widget itself(that is,the major one coming from a private company). That would leave the government to provide the widget with the only incentive (or endgame) being a lower cost to the citizen. (In your example)
What if its shit? The citizens of that government only recourse would be to accept it until the government made a better product by voting in a more competent people or retooling; and would be unable to vote in real time with thier capital in that instance.
Let's say a a government is able to provide all things innovative,efficient, and sound. How would trade work? Would the government prevent foreign goods/services, made by private companies from entering the market...would the government purchase these goods/services to resell(or tax)to the populace?
What’s the recourse now? Everything is deliberately shitty and this fantasy of voting with your dollar and allowing the invisible hand to force the shitty product/service out of the market and allow a better replacement is just that; a fantasy. The giant widget company doesn’t succeed and secure itself a huge market share by making the best widget imaginable, it does it by cutting as many corners as possible.
As for the last paragraph, there are varying models, ideally it’s just whatever the working class determines is the best fit. Different areas have different economic needs and priorities.
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28207978 - 02/28/23 10:46 AM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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I think this is going about this from a totaly wrong angle. I think that vital industries should be deemed essential and therefore held to a much higher standard especially since because they're essential they essentially print guaranteed money. There should be an extreme oversight and maybe a whole new department paid into by these companies to protect against the kind of profiteering and corner cutting that lead to situations like flint or other horrible examples. Airlines trains water energy and even now internet and certain commodities we found out were essential during the pandemic.
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: starfire_xes] 1
#28208003 - 02/28/23 11:03 AM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
starfire_xes said: More competent employees in government?

😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
Competency has nothing to do with it.
It’s not that Tesla isn’t smart enough to make cars that don’t explode, it’s that they’re smart enough to know it doesn’t pay off to invest money in the actual product.
In a system where growth of profit, not just profit but GROWTH of profit, is the metric that industry operates on, there is an inherent incentive to cut corners.
The profit has to grow from somewhere, and investing in R&D and developing a revolutionary product is far more risky than trimming the fat and doing stock buybacks.
Tesla has a market cap of $650B and Ford has a market cap of $48B. Does Tesla sell 13 more cars than Ford? Are Teslas 13 times more reliable? No, this is all based strictly on vibes, a perception of quality. This is why advertising is so important, people are easily manipulated even though we all pretend we aren’t.
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28208022 - 02/28/23 11:18 AM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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That's not how stocks work tesla has almost never run on healthy market metrics but was inflated by idiot investors who sucked musks cocks and thought one of the most garbage fuck you auto companies was going to become the new Ford of EV at a time when their was no competition or even objective to turn a profit. Those people are complete morons and are already losing alot of money and they're finally becoming disillusioned with musk who ive spoke out against for yesrs and needs to be held accountable for the massive pump and dump hes pulled with tesla fucking over alot of peoples savings. Ford is in a different position and lost alot of money trying to expand balls deep into Asian markets which even I could have told them the Chinese were just going to fuck them over and steal all thier shit...like they always do with everything. You people need to pull your heads out of your ass. Maybe if you weren't so gullible and didn't put up with this shit companies wouldn't be able to pull this shit but it's just gotten worse now that the country has been turned into a giant rip off with the pandemic and what did you people do? You bought more crap than ever did you ever hear of maybe tightening the belt for a few years till this blows over? Surrounded by degenerate morons who don't have a clue how anything works in reality and bend right over to get fucked in the ass with no lube. that's the problem not the markets or wall street.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28208112 - 02/28/23 12:30 PM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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If thats the case, how would goods and services change/be upgraded for the citizenry based on the monies received and spent from tax dollars?
Consumers spend $$$$= shitty products
Government spends $$$$= non shitty products.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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The Ecstatic
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28208149 - 02/28/23 12:56 PM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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Research and development, fixed budgets. We already subsidize the development of a lot of this shit, we just allow it to benefit the ruling class instead of the public.
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28208171 - 02/28/23 01:15 PM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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That's literally not true I also think you put too much credence on the "ruling class" being the ones calling the shots.
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Randar
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
#28208181 - 02/28/23 01:20 PM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
CHeifM4sterDiezL said: I think this is going about this from a totaly wrong angle. I think that vital industries should be deemed essential and therefore held to a much higher standard especially since because they're essential they essentially print guaranteed money. There should be an extreme oversight and maybe a whole new department paid into by these companies to protect against the kind of profiteering and corner cutting that lead to situations like flint or other horrible examples. Airlines trains water energy and even now internet and certain commodities we found out were essential during the pandemic.
This is the most concise and well-though out response I've seen from you yet. I actually agree with this approach.
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Randar] 1
#28208198 - 02/28/23 01:43 PM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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As someone who is in corporate R+D, I can tell you that the first step to every single one of our projects is to do a literature search and find some publicly funded academic research that backs up our ideas.
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Ice9
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28208336 - 02/28/23 04:32 PM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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I work in one of the few industries that "basic research" is still done in. As a point of fact, it is widely regarded as near impossible for publicly funded institutions to bring a drug candidate to market.
That said. The real basic scientific research is still majority carried out by public funded ventures.
Quote:
But in a large majority of cases, the public sector’s contribution to new drugs has been in the form of early scientific findings, unrelated to current or potential applications. The public sector supported key basic research for 19 of the 26 “transformative” drugs and drug classes cited above, contributed to the actual discovery of a new therapy in just 11, and could claim sole discovery credit in only four cases 5. More broadly, although NIH funding supported at least one publication related to each of the 210 new medicines approved by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) from 2010 to 2016, over 90 percent of those papers were related to the underlying drug target, not the actual therapy itself 6.
Comprehensive reviews of the genesis of approved drugs confirm that while publicly funded science often characterizes important pathologic processes and identifies potential drug targets, the private sector is the main inventor of most new therapies. A recent study found that for only 25 percent of drugs approved from 2008 to 2017 was there any documented contribution, of any magnitude, to a drug’s initial discovery, synthesis, or key intellectual property by a public sector research institution or academic “spin-off” company 7. This finding corroborated a review of approvals from 1998 to 2007, which found that publicly funded research helped either identify the chemical structure of the final compound or its direct antecedents or demonstrated therapeutic proof-of-concept for the target for only about a third of new drugs 8. If one uses a more stringent definition of “contribution” based solely on intellectual property, then taxpayers’ role in drug discovery is even smaller; less than 15 percent of new medicines are covered by even a single patent that was either directly issued to a public entity or contains a “government interest statement” acknowledging public funding 7, 9, 10.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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ballsalsa
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Ice9]
#28208351 - 02/28/23 04:45 PM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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Got a link to the paper?
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Ice9
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa] 2
#28208353 - 02/28/23 04:47 PM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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ballsalsa
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Ice9]
#28208382 - 02/28/23 05:09 PM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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I'll read it but I really just wanted to see a couple things:
Quote:
Dr. David’s work on this manuscript was supported by a research grant from BIO (Biotechnology Industry Organization, Inc.). Dr. Conti’s effort on this manuscript was unfunded.
Quote:
BIO is the world’s largest advocacy association representing member companies, state biotechnology groups, academic and research institutions, and related organizations across the United States and in 30+ countries...
...Corporate members range from entrepreneurial companies developing a first product to Fortune 500 multinationals. We also represent state and regional biotech associations, service providers to the industry, and academic centers. Our members help foster a healthy economy by creating good-paying, biotechnology jobs.
https://www.pharmagellan.com/team
Quote:
Frank is an experienced consultant and former physician-scientist who works at the intersection of corporate strategy, clinical medicine and basic research. He focuses on helping established and emerging biomedical companies, entrepreneurs, and investors maximize the value of innovative R&D.
Frank has advised C-suite, commercial, R&D, business development, and investor clients across all major therapeutic areas and business sectors within life sciences, including biopharma, devices, diagnostics, tools, and health care services. He previously worked in the consulting arm of Leerink Partners (acquired by SVB), a leading healthcare investment bank, where he co-led the Transactional Consulting practice that advised investors, strategic partners, and early-stage companies side-by-side with Leerink's banking team.
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Ice9
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa]
#28208392 - 02/28/23 05:17 PM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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Doesn't make his individual points incorrect though You can argue that the data might be skewed because it deals only with FDA approved therapeutics if you want, but I can tell you personally that very few publicly funded research institutions are attempting to bring a drug to market. The only example that sticks out to me would be California's attempt to make insulin, which I should point out is not a NOVEL drug candidate.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/23574178/insulin-cost-california-biden-medicare-coverage
This would represent a new paradigm for the pharma industry that has had limited competition as various mega companies just squat on drug IP and buy up any generic manufacturer to protect their profits.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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ballsalsa
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Ice9] 1
#28208429 - 02/28/23 05:40 PM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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I mean, we all know that publicly funded institutions aren't in the business of bringing new drugs to market. Pointing that out speaks nothing to the suitability of public research facilities being used for that purpose.
Let's set that aside. Let the pharma companies do the R&D with taxpayer money but the catch is we also institute single-payer healthcare and mandate that the government negotiate drug prices. Some years ago I showed that if just medicare was allowed to negotiate prices in the same way that the VA system is now empowered to do, the savings would cover the entire pharma industry collective R&D budget with extra left over.
I'll find the thread later
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Ice9
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa]
#28208445 - 02/28/23 05:48 PM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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I mean, I agree about single payer. I also think this paradigm of a state making a generic drug to force down drug prices could work out.
As for the suitability of public institutions bringing a drug to market, I doubt we will ever see it happen with any regularity. Cost of drug development is insane, and a place doing it needs to be able to absorb significant losses with regards to failed candidates. I think it could work with orphan drugs, as regulatory approval is much easier in those cases and there are certain advantages to working on these conditions that qualify, from a financial standpoint.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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ballsalsa
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Ice9] 1
#28208457 - 02/28/23 05:54 PM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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The government literally prints money, duder. Nobody can absorb more loss than the federal government. You know those GLSDBs we gave Ukraine recently? Those things are hella cheap at $40k each. The government paid for those things and stockpiled them even though we don't use them and never even wanted to use them and ended up giving them away.
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Ice9
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa]
#28208560 - 02/28/23 07:11 PM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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Yep, I can totally see a university eating a billion dollar loss on a failed late stage candidate.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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mycosis


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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Ice9]
#28208618 - 02/28/23 07:47 PM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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They better have a damn good football team to make up for that!
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ballsalsa
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Ice9]
#28208622 - 02/28/23 07:48 PM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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Congress takes the loss, not the university.
Their budget is roughly 6 trillion/year.
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Ice9
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa]
#28208670 - 02/28/23 08:17 PM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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Is this hypothetically? My whole response to Kryptos and subsequent responses have been predicated on things as they are. Otherwise I am totally confused lol
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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ballsalsa
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Ice9]
#28208677 - 02/28/23 08:19 PM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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Yeah, this thread is about hypothetically nationalizing important industries
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Ice9
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa]
#28208726 - 02/28/23 08:51 PM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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I get that, but as stated my response was to Kryptos specifically. All my responses have followed from that

I would think with a nationalized pharmaceutical industry the issue would be getting buy in from researchers. Academic research comes with certain freedoms that an end goal oriented research does not. It also pays less typically. So how do you convince people to have less freedom in what they are working on and pay them less? How do you prevent people from just moving to another country to work privately?
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Ice9]
#28208809 - 02/28/23 09:56 PM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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You don't which is what my main argument has been to idiots who don't have a clue how the industry works for years and years. All they do is complain about the costs and profits but continue to reap the benefits of hard earned research and stable and safe pharmaceutical development but have no understanding of really anything.
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zoidbergo
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Ice9] 2
#28208914 - 03/01/23 12:07 AM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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Nationalizing the pharmaceutical industry wouldn't transform the field into academia, and there's no reason it's employees would need to be paid any less. Researchers wouldn't need to "buy in" to do the same work they already do, and that work wouldn't be any less goal oriented.
Academia's quirks, freedoms, and structure come from the rigid hierarchy of graduate students and postdoc working under professors and all of the context and weight of basic science's history and culture, not from the fact that most research universities are public entities.
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: zoidbergo]
#28208926 - 03/01/23 12:28 AM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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It's a huge amount of money to sink into the development of a what if with no incentive. You people have a shit fit when we try to spend money to fix roads for christ sakes
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Ice9
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: zoidbergo]
#28209033 - 03/01/23 05:46 AM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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Yeah, having worked in both I understand why they exist as they do.
Despite the thinking in this thread, the US government does not actually have unlimited money and cannot just "print" more anytime it needs it. Thus already plays out in the push and pull of the private vs public sector. Many of the best of the best work in private industry where pay and incentives are much higher. If pharma is socialized, the structure of those companies necessarily changes, and so does pay. I think academic research is a good analogy for how this could look. Maybe NASA and JPL are better, but again you see a lot of the same thing.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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starfire_xes
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Ice9]
#28209050 - 03/01/23 06:18 AM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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Nationalizing private industries. Why is government going to Elon musk for charging stations? I thought the gov can do it. No need for private industries.
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Sulfurshelfsean
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: starfire_xes]
#28209055 - 03/01/23 06:25 AM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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No one in this thread is talking about nationalizing everything. You're making shit up.
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ballsalsa
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
#28209071 - 03/01/23 06:48 AM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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Which idiots?
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: zoidbergo] 1
#28209081 - 03/01/23 07:01 AM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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I spent a few years in academia doing, ostensibly, drug development. Essentially, we just generated dozens of close analogues of a certain structure that the lab did research on, and then submitted them, along with sample and characterization, to...I wanna say NIH? Who put together a database which was then accessible to corporate clients who could look through the database and find stuff they thought looked promising.
Quote:
zoidbergo said: Nationalizing the pharmaceutical industry wouldn't transform the field into academia, and there's no reason it's employees would need to be paid any less. Researchers wouldn't need to "buy in" to do the same work they already do, and that work wouldn't be any less goal oriented.
Academia's quirks, freedoms, and structure come from the rigid hierarchy of graduate students and postdoc working under professors and all of the context and weight of basic science's history and culture, not from the fact that most research universities are public entities.
This is absolutely not true, there is a massive financial difference between corporate and academic R+D which is unrelated to the structure of having graduate students and entirely reliant on...basically the tenure/public funding system. In corporate R+D, management assigns you a project and a timeframe to work on that project, if enough time has passed and you show that you're clearly doing work, then when time's up, the project ends, and you get assigned a new project by management.
Academic R+D, you pick what you work on, and then beg the government for funding on your idea.
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ballsalsa
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Ice9]
#28209085 - 03/01/23 07:04 AM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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It literally does. That's how fractional reserve banking works. The government gets unlimited money in exchange for letting the banks also print unlimited money that they can loan out with interest. That's what federal reserve notes are, checks written against the assets of the federal reserve. These notes are backed by "assets" like government debt. 2hen the government needs money it doesn't have, it issues more bonds and has the fed buy them up.
I mean, there are steps but that's what it boils down to. All I'm saying is that the public should reap some benefit too.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa]
#28209103 - 03/01/23 07:33 AM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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The Federal Reserve controls the money supply in the United States, it doesn't actually print the currency bills itself, but it does determine how many bills are to be printed.
Everything but the printing press. Same difference, lol. They would probably bill the US Treasury for the expense for printing if they did.
"We will change you $1.50 per dollar bill"
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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starfire_xes
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28209138 - 03/01/23 08:03 AM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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It great to have private bankers run the economy.
🤡
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28209161 - 03/01/23 08:18 AM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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There's extremely important economic reasons why we can't just print an unlimited amount of money from our magic money foutain. Yet another concept people don't seem to get. NASA is a decent example but it's really more of a subsidization rather than the nationalization of the aerospace industry. It ties together the post war military industry in places like California and elsewhere that would have gone bankrupt and collapsed in peacetime but are extremely vital to both national security and the economy. In general its extremely difficult to convince the public to throw massive sums of money into any branch of scientific research as they alway push toward spending money on things that benefit them directly into thier pocket not looking at the bigger picture and how much it greatly benefits all humankind. which is the quickest way to fuck up the economy with things like hyper inflation and what not even tho they just complain complain complain if a captain of industry changing the world for the better benefits in the slightest.
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: starfire_xes]
#28209165 - 03/01/23 08:20 AM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
starfire_xes said: It great to have private bankers run the economy.
🤡
Yeah its terrible to have experts and economists run the economy we should let clowns who don't have a clue and are personally more greedy than anyone when given the opportunity run it
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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
#28209189 - 03/01/23 08:45 AM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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Government has a substantial role to play, though. Even Adam Smith recognized the importance of regulation.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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ballsalsa
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
#28209327 - 03/01/23 10:48 AM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
CHeifM4sterDiezL said: There's extremely important economic reasons why we can't just print an unlimited amount of money from our magic money foutain
And yet we do anyway. The only time anyone complains is when there are proposals to leverage fractional reserve banking in ways that might be beneficial to the public at large rather than special interest groups.
Curious.
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa]
#28209338 - 03/01/23 10:57 AM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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Gonna have to take a middle tack here. A reach, I guess, technically, but that's not how the saying goes. Anyway.
It is much easier to print money than Chief thinks, and it is much harder to print money than balls thinks.
Also, I think a vastly underappreciated factor in the printing of money to feed the rich versus the printing of money to help the poor, is that the rich don't actually spend that money. The poor do. Ultimately, handing a rich person a shitload of cash has less impact on the economy because that cash is gonna go into a savings/investment account and do jack shit. Money given to poor people is immediately circulated within the economy, which has a direct and immediate effect on the economy. Some of that is good (local community benefits), some of that is bad (inflation).
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28209416 - 03/01/23 12:10 PM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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How does the poor spending shitloads of unearned money causing massive inflation only for it to land in the pockets of the rich benefit the economy in anyway? It's much better to provide certain social safety nets while still maintaining its value to provide the incentive for earners who bring usable goods and services to market. What your talking about is the crux of why communism does not work and only eventually serves a powerful few.
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ballsalsa
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28209421 - 03/01/23 12:13 PM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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I'm m not even suggesting that we do anything we don't already do, only that we reallocate some thin-air money for something good instead of subsidies and bailouts for the wealthiest people and organizations in the world
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa]
#28209426 - 03/01/23 12:15 PM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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ballsalsa
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28209432 - 03/01/23 12:27 PM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: The Federal Reserve controls the money supply in the United States, it doesn't actually print the currency bills itself, but it does determine how many bills are to be printed.
Everything but the printing press. Same difference, lol. They would probably bill the US Treasury for the expense for printing if they did.
"We will change you $1.50 per dollar bill"
A lot of the dollars never exist physically. There isn't a scrooge McDuck vault somewhere with bills backing all the dollars in existence. In fact, there are less that $3 trillion in notes and coins circulating worldwide.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa] 2
#28209600 - 03/01/23 02:23 PM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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Your right, money is created out of thin air with a loan and its not paper. I did own a 1985 Cadillac Seville that had a Scrooge McDuck spare tire, though.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (03/01/23 02:24 PM)
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot] 1
#28209606 - 03/01/23 02:29 PM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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That's a pretty nice cadillac got that slant back.
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa]
#28209716 - 03/01/23 03:56 PM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: I'm m not even suggesting that we do anything we don't already do, only that we reallocate some thin-air money for something good instead of subsidies and bailouts for the wealthiest people and organizations in the world
Again, my point is that thin air money becomes pretty thick depending on where it is.
This ties back to the idea of logarithmic money that I have certainly mentioned at least once, and never completely abandoned. Either way, the point is that 100$x100 people =/= 10,000$x1 person, because of how that money is going to be spent, or if it is going to be spent in the first place.
So...2$+2$ does not, in fact, equal 4$
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28209920 - 03/01/23 05:40 PM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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You're gonna have to spell out the implication and how it relates to the difficulty or lack thereof in generating money for projects with more merit than making Elon's bank account go brrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa]
#28209978 - 03/01/23 06:06 PM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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The difficulty is primarily conceptual, and secondarily economic.
Conceptually people are not ready to accept logarithmic money, even though conceptually I think everyone is aware of it. Just like every pro-rich people chud always loves to say, that's not their actual wealth, because if they sold their stock the price would crash. Yes. Exactly. A lot of that wealth is imaginary, and not in the money is meaningless sense. Literally imaginary because having 100,000 shares of Tesla at 100$ a piece is not actually worth 100,000x100...as soon as you sell the first share, the price drops, and keeps dropping.
Economically, this flips a lot of assumptions, because money in reality has a lot less velocity than expected when it goes to rich people. This will certainly reshape the field.
Neither obstacle is insurmountable. And I would even say that both obstacles are obstacles for a lot more than just economic theory. But when giants play, ants flee in terror. And grandma with her 401k is one of those ants.
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Psilynut2
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28210028 - 03/01/23 06:20 PM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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There are really only 4 ways to get rich in life . You can steal it , most people don't have what it takes for that though . You could inherit it , not happening for almost everyone either . You could work really really hard and try to make other peoples work worth less than yours , lol, or you could learn how suck a dick like you're late for a parole meeting and your car keys are stuck in it . Thats about it though .
Edited by Psilynut2 (03/01/23 09:23 PM)
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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Psilynut2]
#28210251 - 03/01/23 08:47 PM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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The real question is with knee pads or not, and, do those keys indeed produce a lackluster cumshot. Brand new sentance.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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The Ecstatic
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos] 1
#28210578 - 03/02/23 05:43 AM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: The difficulty is primarily conceptual, and secondarily economic.
Conceptually people are not ready to accept logarithmic money, even though conceptually I think everyone is aware of it. Just like every pro-rich people chud always loves to say, that's not their actual wealth, because if they sold their stock the price would crash. Yes. Exactly. A lot of that wealth is imaginary, and not in the money is meaningless sense. Literally imaginary because having 100,000 shares of Tesla at 100$ a piece is not actually worth 100,000x100...as soon as you sell the first share, the price drops, and keeps dropping.
Economically, this flips a lot of assumptions, because money in reality has a lot less velocity than expected when it goes to rich people. This will certainly reshape the field.
Neither obstacle is insurmountable. And I would even say that both obstacles are obstacles for a lot more than just economic theory. But when giants play, ants flee in terror. And grandma with her 401k is one of those ants.
This is part of the reason that rich people don’t sell their proverbial 100,000 Tesla shares when they want to buy something, they just take out a loan at virtually 0% interest, the bank knowing full well they have the collateral.
Another big reason is the tax code. Why recognize a gain if you don’t have to..
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Brian Jones
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#28210596 - 03/02/23 05:58 AM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Except Elon Musk, who sold 10 million shares of Tesla. His pissed off shareholders thought it was to buy Twitter, but apparently it turned out to be a tax maneuver.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28210607 - 03/02/23 06:07 AM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Another big reason is the tax code. Why recognize a gain if you don’t have to..
Realized gains can only be truly calculated at the time of sale. They remain unrealized as the market ebbs and flows each day.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (03/02/23 06:08 AM)
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The Ecstatic
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot] 1
#28210824 - 03/02/23 10:29 AM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Right, which is why they don’t sell off securities when they need cash, they just go to the bank and take out a loan.
No point paying tax on capital gains when the interest rate on your debt is far lower.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28210875 - 03/02/23 11:00 AM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Hey E- let me borrow several billion for a year please. I promise to return the exact initial amount back.... I just keep the accumulated interest, cool?
Deal?
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28210941 - 03/02/23 11:41 AM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Right, which is why they don’t sell off securities when they need cash, they just go to the bank and take out a loan.
No point paying tax on capital gains when the interest rate on your debt is far lower.
Not necessarily, if the tradeable financial asset looses value(in this case while holding onto stock), the cost of the loan(instead of selling) could cost more.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (03/02/23 11:43 AM)
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot] 1
#28211010 - 03/02/23 12:34 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Who's considering?
We're still considering Healthcare, student loan forgiveness, allowing people to protest, and about 10 million other things.
What we need to be considering us oughsting the Democratic party. Mealy mouth filthy rat pieces of shit, every last one, from AOC to Clinton, Bernie Sanders to Biden... yeah, Bernie is a fucking Democrat.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28211051 - 03/02/23 01:06 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Bernie is in the alt left he doesn't really represent the party same with AOC I wish the party wouldn't promote these noise makers in any way
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
#28211069 - 03/02/23 01:29 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
CHeifM4sterDiezL said: Bernie is in the alt left he doesn't really represent the party same with AOC I wish the party wouldn't promote these noise makers in any way
The party will showcase anyone who pays lipservice to grass roots causes. AOC and the shit "squad" are the only reason people still vote D... they are literally the most insidiously dangerous cancer in Washington.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Enlil
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28211127 - 03/02/23 02:19 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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You used to be a big bernie dude...now you have turned on him?
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
#28211181 - 03/02/23 03:18 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: You used to be a big bernie dude...now you have turned on him?
Turned on HIM!?! lol...
I wish for one moment I could see the world through your eyes... I'm aware, as I'm sure you are, that my head would promptly explode.. but deep down, I think I want both of those things that bad.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Enlil
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28211189 - 03/02/23 03:26 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: Mealy mouth filthy rat pieces of shit, every last one, from AOC to Clinton, Bernie Sanders to Biden... .
that certainly looks like turning on him
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil] 1
#28211219 - 03/02/23 03:50 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: Mealy mouth filthy rat pieces of shit, every last one, from AOC to Clinton, Bernie Sanders to Biden... .
that certainly looks like turning on him
If your wife cheated on you, with your mortal enemy and you broke up with her... you turned on her.
When Bernie got in bed with corporate America, instead of standing by railworkers... that was really the last straw..
Especially when he played apologist for the actions of the Democratic party, which I know he's been doing for years... but this was just too gross.
Not only abandoning the grass roots, but handicapping them in the only power they have.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (03/02/23 03:53 PM)
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starfire_xes
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28211224 - 03/02/23 03:55 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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The Democraps fucked Bernie.
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: starfire_xes]
#28211231 - 03/02/23 04:03 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Bernie was always a crackpot blowhard. They picked out the good pieces and left the rest behind. A good portion of the democratic constituents have become hopped up on stupid crazy shit coupled with our shit doesn't stink and there's no way we could be wrong over the recent years i see your also crazy i figured ud be more sympathetic i chalk it up to the dissonance of realitys ends not meeting in your mind
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
#28211243 - 03/02/23 04:10 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
CHeifM4sterDiezL said: Bernie was always a crackpot blowhard. They picked out the good pieces and left the rest behind. 
I don't know what Bernie ever was tbh. It's really a wakeup call... we can't look to politicians to solve things. We have to look to one another. We have to be the watchdogs. We have no journalism in this country to speak of, but we have the tools of our modern world. We have the internet.
Once upon a time workers fought with their lives. There was a revolutionary streak in America that gave us the New Deal. It wasn't FDR... It was political pressure on powerful elites. We need to relearn how to fight for ourselves.
I do believe that there is a point where it will truly be too late.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28211255 - 03/02/23 04:20 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Bernie sanders in New haven is the only political rally I ever attended and he made a really great speech with some great points there was really nothing I disagreed with. But then he'll come out with some totally wacko shit that would never work and just piss folks off like yourself either because he couldnt get it done or because it was batshit crazy and I knew he would never be President. I mean I could tell just from body language he wasn't a President. You need a well polished sound resolve and a respect to reach across to all sides to be a president or any leader. He could never get it done. For example biden who I always supported and thought his time had come has the ability to have all but the most irrational folks moderately pissed and happy at the same time whilst temperately selling and slipping through what's needed/right. Most people here don't understand the politics of that.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
#28211300 - 03/02/23 04:47 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
CHeifM4sterDiezL said: [Quote] For example biden who I always supported and thought his time had come has the ability to have all but the most irrational folks moderately pissed and happy at the same time whilst temperately selling and slipping through what's needed/right. Most people here don't understand the politics of that.
[Quote]You need a well polished sound resolve and a respect to reach across to all sides to be a president or any leader. He could never get it done.
Biden fits this description to you?
I don't WANT a polished politician... actually.. I don't give a shit who is in office. It doesn't matter.
I will try, going forward, to support grassroots and labor movements... not politicians.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28211305 - 03/02/23 04:52 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Btw Enlil, I thought you were being facetious or something... you're right, I suppose. It's a sore spot for me, but yeah... I kind of despise Bernie nowadays.
Its a painful realization to be so taken with someone and they turn out to be such a disappointment. I donated money, when I was broke... to his campaign., call me naive. I'm sure I am, on many subjects. My political views are ever changing. Even those I once held quite dear.
I've gone through many different stages... when I first arrived here, I was a Libertarian... then somewhat of a Blue Democrat... now... I dont fit into any box.. but I do generally like Republicam people more than Democrats, in person... I hate a lot of their politics though... but agree on many things I once did not.. its strange.
Bernie has certainly earned his place in my burn box... feel that burn!
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (03/02/23 04:55 PM)
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28211307 - 03/02/23 04:53 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Yes president should be tried and true and somewhat polished the best ones are either inherently gifted or groomed for many years. Alot of these grassroots do gooders dont have what it takes and a national spotlight will melt them. Really ur picking an ultimate leader if not your bound for bad news. They have to have a solid foundation and be unbreakable. Biden is certainly not the best we've seen but good enough
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
#28211313 - 03/02/23 04:58 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
CHeifM4sterDiezL said: Yes president should be tried and true and somewhat polished the best ones are either inherently gifted or groomed for many years. Alot of these grassroots do gooders dont have what it takes and a national spotlight will melt them. Really ur picking an ultimate leader if not your bound for bad news. They have to have a solid foundation and be unbreakable. Biden is certainly not the best we've seen but good enough 
Lyndon Johnson... that's who you're describing in my mind.
Many will disagree, obviously... but if you disagree... you should read more about his political career.
Well... nobody is capable of contending with the corporate media, unless they are a cult of personality, like Trump, nowadays... anyway..
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (03/02/23 05:01 PM)
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28211342 - 03/02/23 05:19 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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At the time from what I understand LBJ was the pill we all had to swallow. I like lady bird tho.
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
#28211344 - 03/02/23 05:22 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
#28211679 - 03/02/23 08:38 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
CHeifM4sterDiezL said: At the time from what I understand LBJ was the pill we all had to swallow. I like lady bird tho.
LBJ was a Southern Democrat, and therefore more capable of working across the aisle. He had a lot of close Republican friends and mentors. He was "the pill we all had to swallow", because he was a VP, who only became president after JFK was assassinated... Kennedy obviously was loved and adored in America...
LBJ wasn't just some obscure... Mike Pence... or some shit.. He had been the Senate Majority leader... He had a giant pecker too.
I'm not expressing some sort of glowing adoration of LBJ, btw... He just fits the description you seem to be describing, to me, and Biden doesn't whatsoever. Biden reminds me more of Reagan, in his later years, with half the charisma. He's just.. not even likeable to me, and he has a weird... relationship to children.. And women in general..
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
#28211683 - 03/02/23 08:42 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
CHeifM4sterDiezL said: Support Headcount
Kinda reminds me of Primus...
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28211729 - 03/02/23 09:13 PM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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LBJ was pretty liberal for the time dewd and certainly no dixiecrat u have to understand ur talking about the back in the days
Edited by CHeifM4sterDiezL (03/02/23 09:21 PM)
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
#28211903 - 03/02/23 11:57 PM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
CHeifM4sterDiezL said: LBJ was pretty liberal for the time dewd and certainly no dixiecrat u have to understand ur talking about the back in the days
The fact that he was from Texas, and not California, benefited him a lot, is all I am saying. From what I understand, he was a strong supporter of New Deal politics. LBJ had strong relationships with prominent Republicans of the time, also. Eisenhower was a frekken Republican. Republicans used to be more moderate, before Reagan, and Fox News. There used to be potential for dialogue. I mean... once upon a time... the left actual had a backbone.
We don't even have a left anymore. I mean, when people say that it's "still better to have a Democrat in office, than a Republican"... It's just absurd to me. Unfortunately, I actually believe that it's worse, for many reasons. I think Democratic politics may potentially be more fascistic and detrimental to America. Democrats seem to be the more hawkish party nowadays. The more shamelessly pro-corporate party. They literally don't do ANYTHING, except hurt the American people.
Name one thing that Democrats (In Washington) have done recently (Done, not said)... That was inspiring to... Anyone.. ? I can't.
I strongly believe that a third party will prove to be a contender in the next election. Something has got to give, and it will. I've always said that people don't act politically, until it directly affects their wallets... This whole coronovirus scam, and the blatant, disgusting, illegal union busting practices of our Federal Government may very well prove to be the last straw.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28212058 - 03/03/23 06:40 AM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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I have always hoped there would be an alternate third party....they just are not viable. Both parties know this and actively support a certain candidate to siphon votes from their opponents during elections, even financially support them.
The best bet is a morphing on one of the two partys that alter their platform. I also think the populace is either R or D, there isn't enough support to change that....yes there are third parties but the ones out there don't represent a huge swath of Americans, otherwise they would get support and elected.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28212071 - 03/03/23 06:52 AM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: I have always hoped there would be an alternate third party....they just are not viable. Both parties know this and actively support a certain candidate to siphon votes from their opponents during elections, even financially support them.
The best bet is a morphing on one of the two partys that alter their platform. I also think the populace is either R or D, there isn't enough support to change that....yes there are third parties but the ones out there don't represent a huge swath of Americans, otherwise they would get support and elected.
More and more Americans identify as Independent every day. I think a 3rd party could win, if they gained steam early on... When Bernie Sanders first started his campaign, who would have ever DREAMED he would become such a viable contender. I mean... He went up against Hillary fucking Clinton.. The anointed vagina!
Nothing would surprise me these days. Anything is possible, brother!
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28212180 - 03/03/23 08:24 AM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Right, which is why they don’t sell off securities when they need cash, they just go to the bank and take out a loan.
No point paying tax on capital gains when the interest rate on your debt is far lower.
Not necessarily, if the tradeable financial asset looses value(in this case while holding onto stock), the cost of the loan(instead of selling) could cost more.
Pretty sure ELOCs (which is what you're describing--aka reverse mortgages) don't change their terms based on changes in the value of the underlying asset. ELOCs are also never given for the full value of the underlying asset. You're taking a loan for maybe 50-90% of the value of the asset backing the loan, depending on the type of asset and who you are.
I think the bigger problem is ELOC chains, where you take an ELOC on an asset, use it to acquire another asset, and then ELOC that second asset...leading to money multiplication ala fractional reserve banking.
Seems like allowing individuals to act as a fractional reserve is just asking for problems.
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof] 1
#28212182 - 03/03/23 08:27 AM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: Name one thing that Democrats (In Washington) have done recently (Done, not said)... That was inspiring to... Anyone.. ? I can't.
35$ insulin.
Eli Lilly recently announced that they would expand the 35$ insulin deal to private insurance.
I'd call that goddamn inspirational, convincing one of the biggest pharmaceutical companies in the world to take a 70% cut in revenue on one of their bigger cash cows.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28212253 - 03/03/23 09:36 AM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: Name one thing that Democrats (In Washington) have done recently (Done, not said)... That was inspiring to... Anyone.. ? I can't.
35$ insulin.
Eli Lilly recently announced that they would expand the 35$ insulin deal to private insurance.
I'd call that goddamn inspirational, convincing one of the biggest pharmaceutical companies in the world to take a 70% cut in revenue on one of their bigger cash cows.
The democrats did that?
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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28212256 - 03/03/23 09:41 AM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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I was describing an instance in which someone choose not to sell stock and instead took out a loan without using said stock as collateral. Obviously, if the stock tanked, the net loss would be higher than taking out a loan to avoid capital gains from liquidating it.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28212272 - 03/03/23 10:00 AM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: Name one thing that Democrats (In Washington) have done recently (Done, not said)... That was inspiring to... Anyone.. ? I can't.
35$ insulin.
Eli Lilly recently announced that they would expand the 35$ insulin deal to private insurance.
I'd call that goddamn inspirational, convincing one of the biggest pharmaceutical companies in the world to take a 70% cut in revenue on one of their bigger cash cows.
The democrats did that?
The 35$ cap on insulin for Medicare is part of the inflation reduction act, passed in 2022, with iirc zero republican support, so yes. Yes they did.
Biden then called out drug companies in the SOTU, and Eli Lilly appears to be willingly lowering prices for everyone, not just medicare.
I know you think democrats are useless and should not be trusted, but I think this is about as clear a democrat-achieved win as you can get.
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ballsalsa
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28212275 - 03/03/23 10:03 AM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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Just imagine if medicare were allowed to negotiate the price of all the other prescription drugs...
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28212276 - 03/03/23 10:03 AM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: I was describing an instance in which someone choose not to sell stock and instead took out a loan without using said stock as collateral. Obviously, if the stock tanked, the net loss would be higher than taking out a loan to avoid capital gains from liquidating it.
Then that's a discussion about opportunity cost, which is...I think entirely unrelated to wealth and the privileges it brings.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28212393 - 03/03/23 11:35 AM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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Yes, realized and unrealized gains and the "ability" to forgo capital gains. Not sure how stock could be taxed prior to liquidation for someone just holding it. Whenever the timing of the tax, prior sale, would fluctuate wildly based on the market. Investors/ stockholders would then hold and sell just before the tax was levied, causing crazy EKG lines on a stock market graph. Even if the tax was at random intervals, it would be fucked.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (03/03/23 11:36 AM)
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The Ecstatic
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos] 2
#28212497 - 03/03/23 12:50 PM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: Name one thing that Democrats (In Washington) have done recently (Done, not said)... That was inspiring to... Anyone.. ? I can't.
35$ insulin.
Eli Lilly recently announced that they would expand the 35$ insulin deal to private insurance.
I'd call that goddamn inspirational, convincing one of the biggest pharmaceutical companies in the world to take a 70% cut in revenue on one of their bigger cash cows.
The democrats did that?
The 35$ cap on insulin for Medicare is part of the inflation reduction act, passed in 2022, with iirc zero republican support, so yes. Yes they did.
Biden then called out drug companies in the SOTU, and Eli Lilly appears to be willingly lowering prices for everyone, not just medicare.
I know you think democrats are useless and should not be trusted, but I think this is about as clear a democrat-achieved win as you can get.
Nah I legit forgot about that part of the IRA, was thinking about Eli Lilly’s most recent declaration. I think at least some of the credit goes to the guy who did the fake Eli Lilly tweet for the latter, Dems should definitely get credit for the former.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28214600 - 03/04/23 05:57 PM (10 months, 19 days ago) |
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Dems negotiated the price of a drug (albeit a very important drug)... real fuckin inspiring. Yall got a pretty low bar, but I guess the Dems have actually done.. something.. neat.
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof] 2
#28215342 - 03/05/23 05:24 AM (10 months, 18 days ago) |
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It's the first life-changing legislation for the common man since Obamacare, so...
Yeah, the bar is literally on the floor in the US.
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Sulfurshelfsean
Defender of Cubes


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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof] 1
#28215366 - 03/05/23 06:28 AM (10 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: Dems negotiated the price of a drug (albeit a very important drug)... real fuckin inspiring. Yall got a pretty low bar, but I guess the Dems have actually done.. something.. neat.
Seems every four to eight years they donsomething useful. Nobody likes the Dems at this point but they're not the complete clown show the republicans are pushing out. It's a sad state where our country just idles on issues on the democrat side, because they can't figure out how to help people and their donors, and the republicans just want this stupid culture war nonsense.
--------------------
   Everything is better when it is done ON TOP OF A MOUNTAIN!
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Sulfurshelfsean]
#28215390 - 03/05/23 07:00 AM (10 months, 18 days ago) |
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Biden has pushed out a few good things. The chip bill may well be the difference between a Chinese and a US led future...maybe. It is a bit too abstract to help the common man, but opening some chip factories in the US would create a shitload of high skill high value jobs and ensure a domestic supply of chips for the near future, and chip demand is only going to go up as everything becomes "smart".
The infrastructure bill I think should have spent more money on modernizing the grid itself, and not just the energy sources, because the US power grid is stripped to the bones and is already probably the weakest link in the energy future. But, pushing renewables and batteries reduces our reliance on foreign energy and sets the groundwork for future improvements in the energy sector.
The IRA had the most immediately visible effects, but the chips and infrastructure bills set the groundwork for the future in a significant way. Especially because chips and energy are going to be the kingmakers when it comes to global hegemony in the near future, and China is working on both.
I've said it before, I'll say it again: Biden has blown my expectations out of the water. A lot of it is technical, back-end stuff. It doesn't grab headlines, which means it isn't a political winner, but goddamn is it a winner in reality. I didn't expect him to be able to do even a fraction of what he has done.
Edit: and of course, in the meantime, GOP controlled Florida is trying to limit the first amendment, because they don't like it when people make fun of them. You see the new bill they are pushing? Calling someone a bigot, regardless of circumstances, you are presumed to be wrong and liable for 35k in damages. Same for using anonymous sources.
Edited by Kryptos (03/05/23 07:17 AM)
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Sulfurshelfsean
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28215429 - 03/05/23 07:51 AM (10 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: Biden has pushed out a few good things. The chip bill may well be the difference between a Chinese and a US led future...maybe. It is a bit too abstract to help the common man, but opening some chip factories in the US would create a shitload of high skill high value jobs and ensure a domestic supply of chips for the near future, and chip demand is only going to go up as everything becomes "smart".
The infrastructure bill I think should have spent more money on modernizing the grid itself, and not just the energy sources, because the US power grid is stripped to the bones and is already probably the weakest link in the energy future. But, pushing renewables and batteries reduces our reliance on foreign energy and sets the groundwork for future improvements in the energy sector.
The IRA had the most immediately visible effects, but the chips and infrastructure bills set the groundwork for the future in a significant way. Especially because chips and energy are going to be the kingmakers when it comes to global hegemony in the near future, and China is working on both.
I've said it before, I'll say it again: Biden has blown my expectations out of the water. A lot of it is technical, back-end stuff. It doesn't grab headlines, which means it isn't a political winner, but goddamn is it a winner in reality. I didn't expect him to be able to do even a fraction of what he has done.
Edit: and of course, in the meantime, GOP controlled Florida is trying to limit the first amendment, because they don't like it when people make fun of them. You see the new bill they are pushing? Calling someone a bigot, regardless of circumstances, you are presumed to be wrong and liable for 35k in damages. Same for using anonymous sources.
Yeah maybe my expectations are too high. Definitely some good being done by Dems. Holy shit though those reps are just zany.
--------------------
   Everything is better when it is done ON TOP OF A MOUNTAIN!
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Sulfurshelfsean]
#28215475 - 03/05/23 08:33 AM (10 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Sulfurshelfsean said: Yeah maybe my expectations are too high. Definitely some good being done by Dems. Holy shit though those reps are just zany.
Some real "lesser of two evils-ism" going on here.
I don't know about the microchip thing, but I could just as easily see Republicans doing the same thing. What is it, some kind of subsidy? You can always count on Washington to subsidize big business in a variety of ways. Coincidentally, it has downstream benefits for the American citizen (Moreso than sending $100 billion to Ukraine, anyway).
#Unimpressed
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Brian Jones
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28215562 - 03/05/23 09:28 AM (10 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: Biden has pushed out a few good things. The chip bill may well be the difference between a Chinese and a US led future...maybe. It is a bit too abstract to help the common man, but opening some chip factories in the US would create a shitload of high skill high value jobs and ensure a domestic supply of chips for the near future, and chip demand is only going to go up as everything becomes "smart".
The infrastructure bill I think should have spent more money on modernizing the grid itself, and not just the energy sources, because the US power grid is stripped to the bones and is already probably the weakest link in the energy future. But, pushing renewables and batteries reduces our reliance on foreign energy and sets the groundwork for future improvements in the energy sector.
The IRA had the most immediately visible effects, but the chips and infrastructure bills set the groundwork for the future in a significant way. Especially because chips and energy are going to be the kingmakers when it comes to global hegemony in the near future, and China is working on both.
I've said it before, I'll say it again: Biden has blown my expectations out of the water. A lot of it is technical, back-end stuff. It doesn't grab headlines, which means it isn't a political winner, but goddamn is it a winner in reality. I didn't expect him to be able to do even a fraction of what he has done.
Edit: and of course, in the meantime, GOP controlled Florida is trying to limit the first amendment, because they don't like it when people make fun of them. You see the new bill they are pushing? Calling someone a bigot, regardless of circumstances, you are presumed to be wrong and liable for 35k in damages. Same for using anonymous sources.
The U.S. going gung ho on chips is great, good for the economy and national security. But we are not expecting to catch Taiwan in less than a decade. Seems like the big push should have started earlier.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Enlil
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28215676 - 03/05/23 11:00 AM (10 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: It's the first life-changing legislation for the common man since Obamacare
You can't be serious
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
#28216187 - 03/05/23 04:49 PM (10 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
Sulfurshelfsean said: Yeah maybe my expectations are too high. Definitely some good being done by Dems. Holy shit though those reps are just zany.
Some real "lesser of two evils-ism" going on here.
I don't know about the microchip thing, but I could just as easily see Republicans doing the same thing. What is it, some kind of subsidy? You can always count on Washington to subsidize big business in a variety of ways. Coincidentally, it has downstream benefits for the American citizen (Moreso than sending $100 billion to Ukraine, anyway).
#Unimpressed
Yeah, the world ain't a fairy tale. There is no good, only less bad.
Quote:
Brian Jones said:
Quote:
Kryptos said: Biden has pushed out a few good things. The chip bill may well be the difference between a Chinese and a US led future...maybe. It is a bit too abstract to help the common man, but opening some chip factories in the US would create a shitload of high skill high value jobs and ensure a domestic supply of chips for the near future, and chip demand is only going to go up as everything becomes "smart".
The infrastructure bill I think should have spent more money on modernizing the grid itself, and not just the energy sources, because the US power grid is stripped to the bones and is already probably the weakest link in the energy future. But, pushing renewables and batteries reduces our reliance on foreign energy and sets the groundwork for future improvements in the energy sector.
The IRA had the most immediately visible effects, but the chips and infrastructure bills set the groundwork for the future in a significant way. Especially because chips and energy are going to be the kingmakers when it comes to global hegemony in the near future, and China is working on both.
I've said it before, I'll say it again: Biden has blown my expectations out of the water. A lot of it is technical, back-end stuff. It doesn't grab headlines, which means it isn't a political winner, but goddamn is it a winner in reality. I didn't expect him to be able to do even a fraction of what he has done.
Edit: and of course, in the meantime, GOP controlled Florida is trying to limit the first amendment, because they don't like it when people make fun of them. You see the new bill they are pushing? Calling someone a bigot, regardless of circumstances, you are presumed to be wrong and liable for 35k in damages. Same for using anonymous sources.
The U.S. going gung ho on chips is great, good for the economy and national security. But we are not expecting to catch Taiwan in less than a decade. Seems like the big push should have started earlier.
Shoulda, woulda, woulda, didn't. Better late than never.
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Kryptos said: It's the first life-changing legislation for the common man since Obamacare
You can't be serious
In a positive way, yes.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,470
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28216313 - 03/05/23 06:08 PM (10 months, 18 days ago) |
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Then you haven't been paying attention.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Kryptos
Stranger

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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
#28216322 - 03/05/23 06:13 PM (10 months, 18 days ago) |
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Or the legislation you are referring to didn't quite affect the common man.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28216385 - 03/05/23 06:52 PM (10 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: Or the legislation you are referring to didn't quite affect the common man.
Are you kidding me?
At one point I was collecting $1,000 a week in unemployment, and my gf got the same. My ma got $40,000 dropped into her bank account from the PPP loans. That shit affected the common man.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (03/05/23 06:57 PM)
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Bigbadwooof
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Registered: 12/07/13
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28216393 - 03/05/23 06:57 PM (10 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
Sulfurshelfsean said: Yeah maybe my expectations are too high. Definitely some good being done by Dems. Holy shit though those reps are just zany.
Some real "lesser of two evils-ism" going on here.
I don't know about the microchip thing, but I could just as easily see Republicans doing the same thing. What is it, some kind of subsidy? You can always count on Washington to subsidize big business in a variety of ways. Coincidentally, it has downstream benefits for the American citizen (Moreso than sending $100 billion to Ukraine, anyway).
#Unimpressed
Yeah, the world ain't a fairy tale. There is no good, only less bad
Look at yaself... go on.. I'll wait.
Our Federal government is unacceptably SHITTY nowadays, and the more people carry on, gnawing at the bones they throw us, as if it were a fucking steak... The more things will continue toward an authoritarian, oligarchic, fascist, Orwellian nightmare. We're not there yet.
A government shouldn't be permitted to endorse a vaccine that causes heart disease/cardiac events in young people, without any evidence for it's effectiveness or safety, and tell people not to leave their fucking homes. It's too fucking far.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (03/05/23 06:58 PM)
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Enlil
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28216396 - 03/05/23 06:58 PM (10 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: Or the legislation you are referring to didn't quite affect the common man.
You're saying that out of the tens of thousands of laws, perhaps even 100000 laws, passed since obamacare, but a single one has been life changing in a positive way for the common man?
That's absurd.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
#28216402 - 03/05/23 07:00 PM (10 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Kryptos said: Or the legislation you are referring to didn't quite affect the common man.
You're saying that out of the tens of thousands of laws, perhaps even 100000 laws, passed since obamacare, but a single one has been life changing in a positive way for the common man?
That's absurd.
Then again... maybe he's right. What a bunch of useless pieces of shit we have in Washington. "It ain't perfect, but once every 2 decades they do something positive, so vote Democrat!"
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28216404 - 03/05/23 07:01 PM (10 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
Kryptos said: Or the legislation you are referring to didn't quite affect the common man.
Are you kidding me?
At one point I was collecting $1,000 a week in unemployment, and my gf got the same. My ma got $40,000 dropped into her bank account from the PPP loans. That shit affected the common man.
Did that thousand dollars change your life completely?
Because having medical insurance, removing lifetime insurance payment caps, and controlling the price of medication that people need to live did.
Unless you want me to say very unkind things about your conception of the "common man", I would not mention the half trillion dollar fraud that was the PPP loan system.
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
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Kryptos said:
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Bigbadwooof said:
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Sulfurshelfsean said: Yeah maybe my expectations are too high. Definitely some good being done by Dems. Holy shit though those reps are just zany.
Some real "lesser of two evils-ism" going on here.
I don't know about the microchip thing, but I could just as easily see Republicans doing the same thing. What is it, some kind of subsidy? You can always count on Washington to subsidize big business in a variety of ways. Coincidentally, it has downstream benefits for the American citizen (Moreso than sending $100 billion to Ukraine, anyway).
#Unimpressed
Yeah, the world ain't a fairy tale. There is no good, only less bad
Look at yaself... go on.. I'll wait.
Our Federal government is unacceptably SHITTY nowadays, and the more people carry on, gnawing at the bones they throw us, as if it were a fucking steak... The more things will continue toward an authoritarian, oligarchic, fascist, Orwellian nightmare. We're not there yet.
A government shouldn't be permitted to endorse a vaccine that causes heart disease/cardiac events in young people, without any evidence for it's effectiveness or safety, and tell people not to leave their fucking homes. It's too fucking far.
You're right. The government shouldn't even give us a bone. If they cannot create paradise, then they should just refuse to do anything, because if it's not perfect then you might as well not even try.
And keep the antivax bullshit to the bullshit forum.
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
#28216409 - 03/05/23 07:03 PM (10 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Kryptos said: Or the legislation you are referring to didn't quite affect the common man.
You're saying that out of the tens of thousands of laws, perhaps even 100000 laws, passed since obamacare, but a single one has been life changing in a positive way for the common man?
That's absurd.
None quite so seismic. Obamacare, as well as the IRA, opened new doorways in politics. One put public insurance into public discourse, and the other showed that in fact price controls on drugs can work.
I am having a very hard time naming a single similar legislation, apart from maybe the formation of the CFPB, but I think that was pre-obamacare.
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Enlil
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos] 1
#28216421 - 03/05/23 07:09 PM (10 months, 18 days ago) |
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Maybe because you're focusing on federal law. The federal government has very little power. Most life changing legislation is at the state level
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28216424 - 03/05/23 07:11 PM (10 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Are you kidding me?
At one point I was collecting $1,000 a week in unemployment, and my gf got the same. My ma got $40,000 dropped into her bank account from the PPP loans. That shit affected the common man.
Did that thousand dollars change your life completely?
Because having medical insurance, removing lifetime insurance payment caps, and controlling the price of medication that people need to live did.
Unless you want me to say very unkind things about your conception of the "common man", I would not mention the half trillion dollar fraud that was the PPP loan system.
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
Kryptos said:
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Bigbadwooof said: Some real "lesser of two evils-ism" going on here.
I don't know about the microchip thing, but I could just as easily see Republicans doing the same thing. What is it, some kind of subsidy? You can always count on Washington to subsidize big business in a variety of ways. Coincidentally, it has downstream benefits for the American citizen (Moreso than sending $100 billion to Ukraine, anyway).
#Unimpressed
Yeah, the world ain't a fairy tale. There is no good, only less bad
Look at yaself... go on.. I'll wait.
Our Federal government is unacceptably SHITTY nowadays, and the more people carry on, gnawing at the bones they throw us, as if it were a fucking steak... The more things will continue toward an authoritarian, oligarchic, fascist, Orwellian nightmare. We're not there yet.
A government shouldn't be permitted to endorse a vaccine that causes heart disease/cardiac events in young people, without any evidence for it's effectiveness or safety, and tell people not to leave their fucking homes. It's too fucking far.
You're right. The government shouldn't even give us a bone. If they cannot create paradise, then they should just refuse to do anything, because if it's not perfect then you might as well not even try.
And keep the antivax bullshit to the bullshit forum.
Antivax bullshit!?!
It's a plain fact. Are we not supposed to talk about objective facts around here anymore? I'm not even sure.
Anyway, I would say that that unemployment check effected my life at least as much as any savings someone might have on insulin will affect their life. I didn't have to work for 2 years and I had a pretty damn good income for much of that time.
As far as the PPP loans, yes a disproportionate amount of money went to the wealthy, but that is always the case. The point is, some of that government money went to the common man.
By the way, Biden is sending money to Ukraine, to provide pensions for the Ukrainian people... Pensions, healthcare, education, and food.. I guess we can create paradise... just not here at home. We can't even keep our fucking trains on the fucking track!
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
#28216508 - 03/05/23 08:08 PM (10 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Maybe because you're focusing on federal law. The federal government has very little power. Most life changing legislation is at the state level
Correct, I am focusing on the federal government. Not much point talking about states when discussing Biden's achievements unless we go back 20 years.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28216534 - 03/05/23 08:21 PM (10 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
Enlil said: Maybe because you're focusing on federal law. The federal government has very little power. Most life changing legislation is at the state level
Correct, I am focusing on the federal government. Not much point talking about states when discussing Biden's achievements unless we go back 20 years.
Bidens... achievements..
He's a hero to you, huh? That's your guy...
... ...
Joe...
Biden...
Look at yasellllf.... go on... do it.
What have they done to you?
Here's a funny thought.. If Biden's done anything great, he probably couldn't tell you how or why he did it.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (03/05/23 08:21 PM)
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Enlil
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28216592 - 03/05/23 09:01 PM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
Enlil said: Maybe because you're focusing on federal law. The federal government has very little power. Most life changing legislation is at the state level
Correct, I am focusing on the federal government. Not much point talking about states when discussing Biden's achievements unless we go back 20 years.
I thought this was about democrats...
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28216658 - 03/05/23 09:48 PM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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I kinda shifted to Biden focused achievements halfway down last page.
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
Enlil said: Maybe because you're focusing on federal law. The federal government has very little power. Most life changing legislation is at the state level
Correct, I am focusing on the federal government. Not much point talking about states when discussing Biden's achievements unless we go back 20 years.
Bidens... achievements..
He's a hero to you, huh? That's your guy...
... ...
Joe...
Biden...
Look at yasellllf.... go on... do it.
What have they done to you?
Here's a funny thought.. If Biden's done anything great, he probably couldn't tell you how or why he did it.
Bro, if Biden can do what he did while demented, then I think he should be president for life, because he apparently accidentally shat gold three times in two years.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28216670 - 03/05/23 09:58 PM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: Bro, if Biden can do what he did while demented, then I think he should be president for life, because he apparently accidentally shat gold three times in two years.
He also Freudian slipped on the Nordstream pipeline... thing.. Or I guess that was more of a gaf. I can't think of anything Trump did that was comparably stupid, but I guess I checked out pretty hard during those years.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28216719 - 03/05/23 11:03 PM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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Dude couldn't lift a glass of water with two hands!
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mushboy
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28216957 - 03/06/23 07:53 AM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: I can't think of anything Trump did that was comparably stupid.
starring at the sun? drawing on a weather map with a sharpie? praising china during the beginning of covid? assassinating top brass from a country we are not at war with?
do you have amnesia or are you just trolling?
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Enlil
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: mushboy] 1
#28216992 - 03/06/23 08:26 AM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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Remember when he forgot Puerto Rico was a part of the United States?
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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil] 1
#28216999 - 03/06/23 08:36 AM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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Even after throwing paper towel at them.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot] 1
#28217028 - 03/06/23 08:59 AM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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Hey, hey, hey, let's give him some credit. Throwing a package of paper towels is hard work, he was probably tuckered out.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28217060 - 03/06/23 09:18 AM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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I knew I was gonna get some good examples... I don't know if they are comparably stupid to accidentally admitting to your allies that you're the reason they are going to freeze and potentially die this winter, but...
The whole paper towel thing... man.. smh
I really try to forget these things.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Enlil
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28217079 - 03/06/23 09:32 AM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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The reason they're going to freeze? First, there's no evidence that the U.S. had anything to do with blowing up the pipelines, but even if there were, they were shut down at that point. How does disabling a pipeline that isn't flowing going to cause anyone to freeze?
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
#28217090 - 03/06/23 09:40 AM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: The reason they're going to freeze? First, there's no evidence that the U.S. had anything to do with blowing up the pipelines, but even if there were, they were shut down at that point. How does disabling a pipeline that isn't flowing going to cause anyone to freeze?
Because that pipeline was going to be used to distribute cheap gas to Germany. Germany is now paying exorbitant prices for natural gas.
The president basically said he was going to destroy the pipeline, and then he did it. Now a well-respected journalist is reporting on it. It's a no-brainer.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Enlil
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28217098 - 03/06/23 09:42 AM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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He didn't say he was going to destroy it. Also, there's no evidence he did.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
#28217108 - 03/06/23 09:48 AM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: He didn't say he was going to destroy it. Also, there's no evidence he did.
Who do you think did it? lmao
I suppose you think there's no evidence that anybody did it.
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Enlil
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28217109 - 03/06/23 09:49 AM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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"Who else would do it" isn't a great way to get to the truth. Making the U.S., or any nation, a "default villian" isn't particularly useful.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
#28217154 - 03/06/23 10:27 AM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: "Who else would do it" isn't a great way to get to the truth. Making the U.S., or any nation, a "default villian" isn't particularly useful.
The shoe fits, and it said as much. Maybe you missed it, so here's a recap:
"If Russia invades, that means tanks cross the boarder with Ukraine, that means there will no longer be a Nordstream II. We will bring an end to it."
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (03/06/23 10:28 AM)
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
#28217159 - 03/06/23 10:32 AM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: "Who else would do it" isn't a great way to get to the truth. Making the U.S., or any nation, a "default villian" isn't particularly useful.
Feels like speculation is the default substitute for truth a lot more often lately.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28217209 - 03/06/23 10:59 AM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
Enlil said: "Who else would do it" isn't a great way to get to the truth. Making the U.S., or any nation, a "default villian" isn't particularly useful.
Feels like speculation is the default substitute for truth a lot more often lately.
You guys are somethin else man.
Did you watch the fuckin video? Do you literally need to be spoon fed this shit from MSNBC? Come on...
Orwell would call you a "Doublethinker"
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (03/06/23 11:00 AM)
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28217220 - 03/06/23 11:06 AM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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Considering the project was stopped indefinitely when the invasion began, I think it's safe to apply Occam's razor and say that when Biden said he'd shut down the pipelines, he meant...shutting off the pipelines. Which is what happened, long before any explosions.
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mushboy
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28217228 - 03/06/23 11:10 AM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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my take away from that video is biden said it wont happen. asked how? he said it just wont. pivot to german chancellor and he says our response is united.
clear as day to me that he just said biden wants it off and germany will pull the plug. why on earth would they blow it up if both parities were going to turn it off and not use it.
now russia has this massive piece of unused infrastructure right up on nato. blowing it up assures the west cant use it against russia one day or as some dumb ass war prize of sorts/economic blackmail/what the fuckever.
it almost can make sense for russia to blow it up. it makes zero sense for the west/us. not that the west isnt capable. but if they did? putin hasnt and cant do shit about it.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28217368 - 03/06/23 01:01 PM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: Considering the project was stopped indefinitely when the invasion began, I think it's safe to apply Occam's razor and say that when Biden said he'd shut down the pipelines, he meant...shutting off the pipelines. Which is what happened, long before any explosions.
Occam's razor LOL!!! I suppose you're the mind reader who knows what Biden "meant" lol! I'll go with what he SAID. Occam's razor, the simplest explanation is probably the right one... Biden said he would do it, and he did it. Simple. You're the one doing mental gymnastics to fit your narrative, NOT ME!
Goddamn CNN Echo chamber.
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Enlil
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Registered: 08/16/03
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28217374 - 03/06/23 01:05 PM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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The pipeline was shut down long before the explosion. Why bother blowing it up if phone call can get it shut down?
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: mushboy]
#28217376 - 03/06/23 01:05 PM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
mushboy said: my take away from that video is biden said it wont happen. asked how? he said it just wont. pivot to german chancellor and he says our response is united.
clear as day to me that he just said biden wants it off and germany will pull the plug. why on earth would they blow it up if both parities were going to turn it off and not use it.
That's not what Biden said at all, to begin with..
Anyway, let me ask you a simple question... Why would they BUILD it, if they didn't intend to USE it!?!
Quote:
now russia has this massive piece of unused infrastructure right up on nato. blowing it up assures the west cant use it against russia one day or as some dumb ass war prize of sorts/economic blackmail/what the fuckever.
it almost can make sense for russia to blow it up. it makes zero sense for the west/us. not that the west isnt capable. but if they did? putin hasnt and cant do shit about it.
It's utterly preposterous.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
#28217378 - 03/06/23 01:07 PM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: The pipeline was shut down long before the explosion. Why bother blowing it up if phone call can get it shut down?
I mean... yeah.. it was stupid. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, or that our president didn't say he would end the pipeline, if Russia invaded Ukraine.
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mushboy
modboy



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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28217379 - 03/06/23 01:07 PM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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he shut it down with sanctions and such before it blew up. its not that complicated of a situation.
you seem to align yourself with the narration that anything you hear on any msm is a lie.
the irony is in that case? the mainstream media are controlling your thoughts. just in a opposite kinda way.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: mushboy]
#28217385 - 03/06/23 01:10 PM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
mushboy said: he shut it down with sanctions and such before it blew up. its not that complicated of a situation.
you seem to align yourself with the narration that anything you hear on any msm is a lie.
the irony is in that case? the mainstream media are controlling your thoughts. just in a opposite kinda way.
I fundamentally don't trust the media, you're right. They are wrong about so many things it boggles the mind. When I watched Bernie's campaign, I was shocked at the shit the media pulled.
In this situation, I see no reason to doubt the words of our senile president. He said he would do it, and he did. It's pretty straight forward.
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28217395 - 03/06/23 01:13 PM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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When did Biden say he would blow up the pipeline?
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28217453 - 03/06/23 02:05 PM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: When did Biden say he would blow up the pipeline?
I just posted the fucking video dude.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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mushboy
modboy



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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28217459 - 03/06/23 02:13 PM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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and the video disproves your point.
find me the words said by biden:
'i blew it up'
you cant and you wont.
ending isnt blowing up.
dont be scarred like biden scared putin into sabotaging his own pipeline
man up bruh.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: mushboy]
#28217462 - 03/06/23 02:17 PM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
mushboy said: and the video disproves your point.
find me the words said by biden:
'i blew it up'
you cant and you wont.
ending isnt blowing up.
dont be scarred like biden scared putin into sabotaging his own pipeline
man up bruh.
He said he would END it, and he fucking DID. It's not fucking rocket surgery!
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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mushboy
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28217468 - 03/06/23 02:19 PM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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ended with cooperation from germany and sanctions. germany wasnt going to certify the fucking thing. its called diplomacy and politics. being wielded with great aplomb by a fucking senior citizen people like to pretend is senile.
wrong thread too
Edited by mushboy (03/06/23 02:26 PM)
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28217486 - 03/06/23 02:36 PM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
Kryptos said: When did Biden say he would blow up the pipeline?
I just posted the fucking video dude.
A video in which "blow up", or any synonyms of explosions, are notably absent.
A video in which Biden claims an end to the pipeline...on which construction was stopped, or one might say "ended" long before anything exploded.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28217495 - 03/06/23 02:42 PM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
Kryptos said: When did Biden say he would blow up the pipeline?
I just posted the fucking video dude.
A video in which "blow up", or any synonyms of explosions, are notably absent.
A video in which Biden claims an end to the pipeline...on which construction was stopped, or one might say "ended" long before anything exploded.
Yall wanna play the semantics game, let's play. Watch the video... What he said was:
"There will no longer be a Nordstream II. We will bring an end to it."
He's not saying sanctions, and when pressed about he, he basically says, "We have our ways".. If it were through sanctions, he would have said that, clearly.
You guys are just glaringly, utterly wrong about this.
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mushboy
modboy



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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28217498 - 03/06/23 02:44 PM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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how can you be so sure?
im not sure the US wasnt involved i just highly highly highly doubt it. your certainty is blinding you.
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Kryptos
Stranger

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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#28217515 - 03/06/23 02:55 PM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
Kryptos said: When did Biden say he would blow up the pipeline?
I just posted the fucking video dude.
A video in which "blow up", or any synonyms of explosions, are notably absent.
A video in which Biden claims an end to the pipeline...on which construction was stopped, or one might say "ended" long before anything exploded.
Yall wanna play the semantics game, let's play. Watch the video... What he said was:
"There will no longer be a Nordstream II. We will bring an end to it."
He's not saying sanctions, and when pressed about he, he basically says, "We have our ways".. If it were through sanctions, he would have said that, clearly.
You guys are just glaringly, utterly wrong about this.
Okay, let's play this semantics game.
He's not saying explosions, and when pressed on it, he basically says "we have our ways..." If it was through bombing the pipeline, he would have said that. Clearly.
You're just glaringly, utterly wrong about this.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28217526 - 03/06/23 02:59 PM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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Whoever did it was efficient, I have yet to find a source that identifies the explosive by name. Other theories are that it was caused by the Norwegian Navy with depth charges, during training....others say the CIA and them did collaborate.
Who knows, it obviously didn't start a war, war.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28217733 - 03/06/23 05:21 PM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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To me the US or NATO blowing the pipeline seems insanely brash with very little payoff if anything russia blowing the thing and pointing fingers seems way more plausible especially with their recent track record of shit they've pulled. Well probably never know for sure with each side blaming eachother but this has already been discussed in the Ukrainian thread several times
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mycosis


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 19,727
Loc: USSA
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
#28217765 - 03/06/23 05:50 PM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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According to Seymore Hersh the Norwegians did it. I can't believe there isn't more outrage they'd do something like that.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: mycosis]
#28217776 - 03/06/23 06:00 PM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
mycosis said: According to Seymore Hersh the Norwegians did it. I can't believe there isn't more outrage they'd do something like that. 
Seymore Hersh didn't say that at all.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Bigbadwooof] 2
#28217800 - 03/06/23 06:20 PM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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It caused chaos, and chaos is good for authoritarians. People that have no stability in their lives are more willing to give up freedoms just to know that they will, indeed, have a place to sleep tonight.
That was the point of Hitler's brownshirts before he seized power-- they started riots, they fought people in the street, they generally created mayhem and people were willing to go along with hitler when he promised that he alone could fix the problem. And, when he did take power, he had the leadership of the brownshirts (who were his people) arrested and executed. They did their job as chaos monkeys, and they were no longer necessary.
You'd think the proud boys (and Marge Three Name) would learn the lessons of history, but I digress.
Putin is the authoritarian in this situation.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos] 3
#28218578 - 03/07/23 08:18 AM (10 months, 16 days ago) |
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It can’t just be the proud boys. You need the utter economic devastation of post WW1 Germany, the political chaos of the post-Kaiser Weimar Republic, and the weird amalgamation of power struggles between the insurgent communists, the old world aristocracy, the petit bourgeoisie, and yeah, the workers who doesn’t necessarily hate the idea of communism but absolutely do hate the Jews and gypsies.
But we’ll get there
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mycosis


Registered: 08/20/07
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Loc: USSA
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28218662 - 03/07/23 10:02 AM (10 months, 16 days ago) |
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Only Putin can save us from that disgusting mess!
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The Ecstatic
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: mycosis] 2
#28218989 - 03/07/23 01:21 PM (10 months, 16 days ago) |
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Putin is a direct result of that dynamic, in a similar way that Hitler was.
Couldn’t let the communists take Germany, so instead you prop up a woefully inadequate and unpopular Weimar Republic, whose failures fertilized the fields that fascism would grow from.
Make no mistake, if we could do it all over again we wouldn’t do it any differently. Maybe we’d try a little harder to kill the baby Soviets in their crib via the whites.
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mycosis


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 19,727
Loc: USSA
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28219219 - 03/07/23 03:40 PM (10 months, 16 days ago) |
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It’s all fun and games until a Gypsy steals your T-72.
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