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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa]
#28207211 - 02/27/23 07:12 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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How about some examples of industries that went from privatization to government in which it is both innovative and efficient? Not going to lie, I don't know.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa]
#28207212 - 02/27/23 07:13 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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The parent company of one of the parent companies of one of the primary train operators in the UK, Deutsche Bahn, reported total revenue of 45B in 2019. I did not check their CEO's pay structure, but it should be in their public filings, right?
The UK government is paying executive salaries in a German train company.
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot] 1
#28207224 - 02/27/23 07:20 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: How about some examples of industries that went from privatization to government in which it is both innovative and efficient? Not going to lie, I don't know.
Do roads count? They went from private to, I'd say, pretty nationalized. Asphalt innovation has also continued, to the point where it is nearly 100% recyclable. You pour 10kg of asphalt road, ten years later you scrape up 10kg of ready to use asphalt road.
Edited by Kryptos (02/27/23 07:26 PM)
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The Ecstatic
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot] 1
#28207232 - 02/27/23 07:22 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: How about some examples of industries that went from privatization to government in which it is both innovative and efficient? Not going to lie, I don't know.
Efficient is typically defined as “making money for shareholders,” which publicly ran enterprises do not do, by definition.
And that’s why it’s so easy to demonize them.
When people say “the post office loses money,” they’re implying it was ever a goal for it to make money. Nobody ever says “the military loses money” because it’s understood that the military is a public service (ostensibly).
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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28207253 - 02/27/23 07:38 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: How about some examples of industries that went from privatization to government in which it is both innovative and efficient? Not going to lie, I don't know.
Do roads count? They went from private to, I'd say, pretty nationalized. Asphalt innovation has also continued, to the point where it is nearly 100% recyclable. You pour 10kg of asphalt road, ten years later you scrape up 10kg of ready to use asphalt road.
Aren't roads done by private companies via state or federal contract? Who developed the recycle capability for the asphalt?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28207259 - 02/27/23 07:41 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: How about some examples of industries that went from privatization to government in which it is both innovative and efficient? Not going to lie, I don't know.
Efficient is typically defined as “making money for shareholders,” which publicly ran enterprises do not do, by definition.
And that’s why it’s so easy to demonize them.
When people say “the post office loses money,” they’re implying it was ever a goal for it to make money. Nobody ever says “the military loses money” because it’s understood that the military is a public service (ostensibly).
I thought (correct me if I am wrong) one of the issues you raised was that privatization had a fiscal component (something something dude with the monocle) that was unnecessary, like the income compensation for an executive. So if the government spent or wasted more, that would not matter?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Enlil
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28207260 - 02/27/23 07:42 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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The post office doesn't lose money though.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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ballsalsa
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
#28207327 - 02/27/23 08:16 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Nope, and Congress forces the post office to loan them money every year
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The Ecstatic
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot] 2
#28207330 - 02/27/23 08:18 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: How about some examples of industries that went from privatization to government in which it is both innovative and efficient? Not going to lie, I don't know.
Efficient is typically defined as “making money for shareholders,” which publicly ran enterprises do not do, by definition.
And that’s why it’s so easy to demonize them.
When people say “the post office loses money,” they’re implying it was ever a goal for it to make money. Nobody ever says “the military loses money” because it’s understood that the military is a public service (ostensibly).
I thought (correct me if I am wrong) one of the issues you raised was that privatization had a fiscal component (something something dude with the monocle) that was unnecessary, like the income compensation for an executive. So if the government spent or wasted more, that would not matter?
It would matter, I’m just saying it’s more difficult to quantify efficiency because that isn’t how we view public services.
For example, we are told endlessly that a universal single-payer healthcare system isn’t feasible because it would cost trillions of dollars, but this sidesteps the fact that our current (mostly) privatized system costs much more. We tend to view the market as the natural state of things, so when you ask some random American why universal healthcare is a nonstarter they’ll tell you it’s because their taxes will go up $5,000 a year, ignoring the other side of the equation where their privatized deductibles, copays, etc will decrease by $7,000 a year.
All things being equal, removing the profit component of something and putting that back into the service itself (or just reducing taxpayer expense) virtually guarantees a higher level of efficiency. If I sell you a widget for $15 because I decided I need to profit $3 from it, and you nationalize my widget business, you no longer need to account for that $3 I’m skimming off the top, so widgets will either cost $12 now, or they’ll be $15 but with a higher quality.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28207737 - 02/28/23 06:56 AM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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The 3 dollar profit is the purpose and impetus for the widget itself(that is,the major one coming from a private company). That would leave the government to provide the widget with the only incentive (or endgame) being a lower cost to the citizen. (In your example)
What if its shit? The citizens of that government only recourse would be to accept it until the government made a better product by voting in a more competent people or retooling; and would be unable to vote in real time with thier capital in that instance.
Let's say a a government is able to provide all things innovative,efficient, and sound. How would trade work? Would the government prevent foreign goods/services, made by private companies from entering the market...would the government purchase these goods/services to resell(or tax)to the populace?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Kryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot] 1
#28207778 - 02/28/23 07:44 AM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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As someone who has owned a 20 year old microwave, tragically lost it, and bought several new microwaves over the last ten years...
You cannot possibly tell me that the free market incentives the construction of less shit, because microwaves are a clear example of products becoming shittier because they can.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
#28207788 - 02/28/23 07:51 AM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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You get what you pay for...from the eighties:
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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starfire_xes
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28207838 - 02/28/23 08:55 AM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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More competent employees in government?

😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
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The Ecstatic
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot] 2
#28207945 - 02/28/23 10:17 AM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: The 3 dollar profit is the purpose and impetus for the widget itself(that is,the major one coming from a private company). That would leave the government to provide the widget with the only incentive (or endgame) being a lower cost to the citizen. (In your example)
What if its shit? The citizens of that government only recourse would be to accept it until the government made a better product by voting in a more competent people or retooling; and would be unable to vote in real time with thier capital in that instance.
Let's say a a government is able to provide all things innovative,efficient, and sound. How would trade work? Would the government prevent foreign goods/services, made by private companies from entering the market...would the government purchase these goods/services to resell(or tax)to the populace?
What’s the recourse now? Everything is deliberately shitty and this fantasy of voting with your dollar and allowing the invisible hand to force the shitty product/service out of the market and allow a better replacement is just that; a fantasy. The giant widget company doesn’t succeed and secure itself a huge market share by making the best widget imaginable, it does it by cutting as many corners as possible.
As for the last paragraph, there are varying models, ideally it’s just whatever the working class determines is the best fit. Different areas have different economic needs and priorities.
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28207978 - 02/28/23 10:46 AM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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I think this is going about this from a totaly wrong angle. I think that vital industries should be deemed essential and therefore held to a much higher standard especially since because they're essential they essentially print guaranteed money. There should be an extreme oversight and maybe a whole new department paid into by these companies to protect against the kind of profiteering and corner cutting that lead to situations like flint or other horrible examples. Airlines trains water energy and even now internet and certain commodities we found out were essential during the pandemic.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: starfire_xes] 1
#28208003 - 02/28/23 11:03 AM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
starfire_xes said: More competent employees in government?

😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
Competency has nothing to do with it.
It’s not that Tesla isn’t smart enough to make cars that don’t explode, it’s that they’re smart enough to know it doesn’t pay off to invest money in the actual product.
In a system where growth of profit, not just profit but GROWTH of profit, is the metric that industry operates on, there is an inherent incentive to cut corners.
The profit has to grow from somewhere, and investing in R&D and developing a revolutionary product is far more risky than trimming the fat and doing stock buybacks.
Tesla has a market cap of $650B and Ford has a market cap of $48B. Does Tesla sell 13 more cars than Ford? Are Teslas 13 times more reliable? No, this is all based strictly on vibes, a perception of quality. This is why advertising is so important, people are easily manipulated even though we all pretend we aren’t.
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28208022 - 02/28/23 11:18 AM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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That's not how stocks work tesla has almost never run on healthy market metrics but was inflated by idiot investors who sucked musks cocks and thought one of the most garbage fuck you auto companies was going to become the new Ford of EV at a time when their was no competition or even objective to turn a profit. Those people are complete morons and are already losing alot of money and they're finally becoming disillusioned with musk who ive spoke out against for yesrs and needs to be held accountable for the massive pump and dump hes pulled with tesla fucking over alot of peoples savings. Ford is in a different position and lost alot of money trying to expand balls deep into Asian markets which even I could have told them the Chinese were just going to fuck them over and steal all thier shit...like they always do with everything. You people need to pull your heads out of your ass. Maybe if you weren't so gullible and didn't put up with this shit companies wouldn't be able to pull this shit but it's just gotten worse now that the country has been turned into a giant rip off with the pandemic and what did you people do? You bought more crap than ever did you ever hear of maybe tightening the belt for a few years till this blows over? Surrounded by degenerate morons who don't have a clue how anything works in reality and bend right over to get fucked in the ass with no lube. that's the problem not the markets or wall street.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28208112 - 02/28/23 12:30 PM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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If thats the case, how would goods and services change/be upgraded for the citizenry based on the monies received and spent from tax dollars?
Consumers spend $$$$= shitty products
Government spends $$$$= non shitty products.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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The Ecstatic
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28208149 - 02/28/23 12:56 PM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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Research and development, fixed budgets. We already subsidize the development of a lot of this shit, we just allow it to benefit the ruling class instead of the public.
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28208171 - 02/28/23 01:15 PM (10 months, 23 days ago) |
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That's literally not true I also think you put too much credence on the "ruling class" being the ones calling the shots.
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