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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #28203661 - 02/25/23 08:28 AM (10 months, 26 days ago)

Private sector R&D is just last mile commercialization of products.  All the actual research is done by or funded by the government


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28203677 - 02/25/23 08:39 AM (10 months, 26 days ago)

Funded, sure.  Done by?  No.


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OnlineSkellies


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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #28203731 - 02/25/23 09:14 AM (10 months, 26 days ago)

I don't think we can just write off actual rubber meets the road applications of knowledge as not a part of actual research. Researching how we can implement new ideas/concepts is often what gives them value to society.

Even if you write off development though, basic and applied research are both majorly funded by private and public sources.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Skellies]
    #28203757 - 02/25/23 09:33 AM (10 months, 26 days ago)

 I don't think a highly publicized train accident here or there is going to result in the government takeover of a highly profitable industry. Are there examples of something like that?


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
    #28204562 - 02/25/23 07:06 PM (10 months, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
That's true in any field where innovation drives competition.  Sure, the government can adequately run a power plant.  Is the federal government going to effectively fund and manage R&D to find cutting edge technologies to improve electricity generation?  No.  Innovation has always come from the private sector.




Penn State has made improvements that are now used by commercial mushroom farmers. Innovation may come from the private sector.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #28204571 - 02/25/23 07:15 PM (10 months, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
That's true in any field where innovation drives competition.  Sure, the government can adequately run a power plant.  Is the federal government going to effectively fund and manage R&D to find cutting edge technologies to improve electricity generation?  No.  Innovation has always come from the private sector.




Monetization and innovation are two different things.


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #28204600 - 02/25/23 07:36 PM (10 months, 26 days ago)

In general, I don't see the government doing a better job than private industry. Instead, if there's a monopoly on something, that monopoly should be broken up somehow. Maybe in some cases that involves regulation, or laws, it depends on the situation.

Having said that, there are certain basic services that IMO the government should provide, like police, fire, road maintenance, and the assignment of addresses to houses (among other things, this is not all, these are just examples). Everything in moderation. Prisons are a good example of something where despite inefficiency the government really needs to be the only one running them. Private for profit prisons are an absolute nightmare and lead to lots of bad stuff, like the companies involved lobbying for harsher sentences and harsher laws so they can line their pockets.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #28204946 - 02/26/23 05:27 AM (10 months, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Funded, sure.  Done by?  No.




Capitalism works best because it drives innovation (provided the government bankrolls all of it).


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #28205053 - 02/26/23 08:07 AM (10 months, 25 days ago)

You do love you some capitalism.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #28206941 - 02/27/23 03:21 PM (10 months, 24 days ago)

One of the biggest arguments in favor of privatizing British rail was that it cost so much. It was coming in at about 2.5B per year (adjusted to 2018 dollars, spoilers) back in 1985, which was very expensive. So they privatized it to run it cheaper. Now, there are eight companies that run British rail, collectively...collecting 7.1B (as of 2018!) in subsidies from the government to run a substantially similar network.

Ah, the efficiency of private ownership.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
    #28206948 - 02/27/23 03:27 PM (10 months, 24 days ago)

That's more people making better wages.  Sounds like a great outcome to me.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
    #28206969 - 02/27/23 03:42 PM (10 months, 24 days ago)

Source?

I didn't see any data to indicate that the average railway worker's wage increased or that the total number of workers increased substantially.
Not saying you're wrong, I just don't see how you came to that conclusion.


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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28206976 - 02/27/23 03:45 PM (10 months, 24 days ago)

Oh yeah.  Let the government run everything, because the government are pros at running industries.

Also, what is a vital industry?  Define:

:smug:


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #28207032 - 02/27/23 04:37 PM (10 months, 24 days ago)

Trains , it's vital to our natl security and our economy .


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28207036 - 02/27/23 04:45 PM (10 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Source?

I didn't see any data to indicate that the average railway worker's wage increased or that the total number of workers increased substantially.
Not saying you're wrong, I just don't see how you came to that conclusion.



Every dollar spent goes to someone's income.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
    #28207041 - 02/27/23 04:48 PM (10 months, 24 days ago)

You're right, of course.  There's no difference to society whether the extra 5 billion gets split 50 or 50,000 ways.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28207048 - 02/27/23 04:53 PM (10 months, 24 days ago)

I didn't say that, but it's interesting that you did.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
    #28207101 - 02/27/23 05:45 PM (10 months, 24 days ago)

How so?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28207176 - 02/27/23 06:46 PM (10 months, 24 days ago)

I mean i trust your brilliance, so if you believe that, it must have some truth to it.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
    #28207187 - 02/27/23 06:55 PM (10 months, 24 days ago)

My clear sarcasm was in response to your implication that excessive bloat caused by privatization is a net benefit by virtue of generating "higher wages" for "more people".  Maybe that was just my perception and you weren't trying to say that at all?


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