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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: B Traven]
    #28202108 - 02/24/23 08:31 AM (10 months, 27 days ago)

Quote:

B Traven said:
Amtrak is a quasi-public corporation that receives subsidies but still must turn a profit. It also doesn't own the vast majority of the track it runs on. Those two facts account for most of its issues.



There are more than two facts in your post.  I have no idea which two you're referring to.


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OfflineB Traven
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #28202110 - 02/24/23 08:34 AM (10 months, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

B Traven said:
Amtrak is a quasi-public corporation that receives subsidies but still must turn a profit. It also doesn't own the vast majority of the track it runs on. Those two facts account for most of its issues.



There are more than two facts in your post.  I have no idea which two you're referring to.




Ah, right. This isn't a real conversation. Just an annoying "debate."

Nevermind.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: B Traven]
    #28202115 - 02/24/23 08:36 AM (10 months, 27 days ago)

Thanks for playing.


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OfflineCHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #28202378 - 02/24/23 11:16 AM (10 months, 27 days ago)

Don't get me started on traffic issues and that nonsense some of you people should be put in fucking jail because your clearly too fucking stupid to learn how to drive in a modern society. But of course I'm the asshole for going fast right sorry my brain doesn't work as slow as yours or whatever issue is. As far as nationalizing industries I've always seen it as much more healthy to let the market decide the trajectory of major industry while maintaining a healthy oversight to protect the little guy foster development and weed out any backhand dealing. Is it perfect? Absolutely not but the alternative is much worse.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: B Traven] * 1
    #28202384 - 02/24/23 11:29 AM (10 months, 27 days ago)

Amtrac has always operated at a loss. It's improved the bottom line but still loses close to a billion dollars per year. It being a quasi-public is kind of a technicality. The federal government owns most of the company's shares, because who would buy them? It subsidized by the states as well.

Kryptos mentioned providing vital services to small towns. Economies of scale are not possible in those situations, but otherwise, efficiency would be a goal whether the service is public or privately owned. Generally, the government only steps in when a service is considered vital and can't operate at a profit. Another example would be the postal service.

At one time private passenger rail moved 98% of intercity travelers. As more highways were built and car ownership increased, that percentage continuously declined. Amtrac was federally mandated because intercity passenger rail travel became unprofitable, and the private providers left the market.

Kryptos asked why the hangup with efficiency in the railroad industry. Unlike passenger rail, freight rail is profitable. Trucks and trains are both vital to the economy, and trains are many times more cost efficient for moving freight long distances. Warren Buffet bought the BNSF RR which is largest in U.S. He commented that trucks have reached their peak of efficiency and trains have not. Other big investors disagree, but Buffet bet big on his opinion.


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OfflineRandar
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Brian Jones]
    #28202421 - 02/24/23 11:59 AM (10 months, 27 days ago)

Energy generation should be public. The private sector has proven too many times that they are only in it for the profits and are very short-sighted. Recent case in point, a decision to shut down nuclear plants due to the historically low cost of natural gas. It doesn't take a genius to know that prices fluctuate.

Air travel should also be public. Privatization of air travel has been a mess. $ are always put above customer satisfaction.


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OfflineRandar
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Randar]
    #28202435 - 02/24/23 12:05 PM (10 months, 27 days ago)

And definitely healthcare as well.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Randar]
    #28202531 - 02/24/23 01:05 PM (10 months, 27 days ago)

I am on the fence. The closest thing to government run Healthcare in the US is the military and the Department of VA. Not the highest degree of standards. Hard to keep good surgens and the like when they can make x4 outside.Ask people their experince with US government run Healthcare.

The government makes very little; even making "air" public, the private sector is gonna still be making everything.....unless you feel there should be government run airplane manufacturing plants(thats just one)....owned and operated.

Just that infastructure alone would take years and years. All that would change is the insignia of United Airlines/Delta to the insignia of the US government. Could they run it better? What recourse would citizens have for being bumped from a flight/ delayed? Probably less then what's offered now.


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Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (02/24/23 01:07 PM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28202591 - 02/24/23 01:42 PM (10 months, 27 days ago)

My power has been out for two hours... thanks LADWP


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Enlil]
    #28202709 - 02/24/23 02:38 PM (10 months, 27 days ago)

Using a generator so you can still Mod, that's dedication. Maybe you can shed light on the matter.


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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #28202742 - 02/24/23 02:59 PM (10 months, 27 days ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
What other industries could yield better results for the public if nationalized?




All of them.

But I’d settle for major sectors: defense, transportation, energy, education, healthcare, housing, food.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #28202801 - 02/24/23 03:39 PM (10 months, 27 days ago)

With that, how would that work?

Government would be in charge of the full manufacturing process....from raw material to finished product?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28202871 - 02/24/23 04:22 PM (10 months, 27 days ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
With that, how would that work?

Government would be in charge of the full manufacturing process....from raw material to finished product?




It’s easy, instead of giving a huge slice of productivity to some monocle-wearing dipshit who doesn’t do anything we just guarantee a more efficient product/service.

We’re already subsidizing a lot of this stuff anyway, it’s high time we reap the benefits of our investment.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #28202873 - 02/24/23 04:23 PM (10 months, 27 days ago)

Oh yeah, speaking of nationalizing industry in California, isn’t Newsom supposed to be working on manufacturing insulin for the state? Or is that one of those things they all just say and never do like high speed rail?


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic] * 2
    #28202889 - 02/24/23 04:31 PM (10 months, 27 days ago)

Listen Jack, there's a budget deficit this year and we have to tighten our belts. No more pie in the sky commie shit like affordable insulin for people who need it to live.


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Invisiblemycosis
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: ballsalsa] * 3
    #28202895 - 02/24/23 04:35 PM (10 months, 27 days ago)

Pie is the gawd damn problem!
Motherfuckers should have thought about eating a vegetable every now and then! :crankey:


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28203067 - 02/24/23 06:32 PM (10 months, 27 days ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
With that, how would that work?

Government would be in charge of the full manufacturing process....from raw material to finished product?




I think that's pretty reasonable for several industries, actually. Specifically, I think most anything military related should be done in-house, and yes, this means from government owned iron mines all the way to nationalized Raytheon. Honestly, using private companies to supply the military seems to me like someone that's begging to have classified shit revealed, or have their military otherwise fucked with economically.

Either case, to prevent possible leakage, those companies are extremely heavily regulated, I'd argue they're basically nationalized already. Except for the executive pay structure. Which we could probably do with reining in.

Insulating the military supply chain from the vagaries of the outside world as much as possible seems like a no-brainer, to ensure adequate and uninterrupted supply. Maybe use private contracts to cover emergency needs, but if you're buying M4s from colt or whatever for more than a decade, maybe it's time to build your own M4 factory.

Otherwise, I think there is an argument to be made in favor of nationalizing any industry that cannot be profitably run in a town of less than, let's say 1,000. Which basically means electricity, water, water treatment, internet, rail, roads, communications, post office, banks, libraries, schools...I think that's about it? What am I missing?

I don't think we should nationalize, for example, the pizza place down the street. Ecstatic might be going a bit too far when he says all of the industries. The pizza industry can stay private.


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: The Ecstatic] * 3
    #28203178 - 02/24/23 07:44 PM (10 months, 27 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
What other industries could yield better results for the public if nationalized?




All of them.

But I’d settle for major sectors: defense, transportation, energy, education, healthcare, housing, food.




i agree - defense, transportation, energy, education, and healthcare should be nationalized.

we also need to remove the financial barriers to worker ownership. there have been less than 2,000 co-ops in the history of the US, and that's because banks will not lend to them. they aren't as profitable to lend to from the banks' perspective. but if co-ops were the standard model, these businesses would drive major reforms to our political system in the same way massive privately owned businesses drive legislative agendas today.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: Kryptos]
    #28203621 - 02/25/23 07:50 AM (10 months, 26 days ago)

It comes down to efficiency (in this case producing technologically superior goods for the military); is a profit motive more efficient or the government taking the reins? The government could possibly be more fiscally, but as far producing the good or service, not so.

With all the flaws of the military industrial complex, there is no question  the one in the US has been top dog for quite sometime. It's hard to beat that track record, or usurp it.Just the lag time needed to facilitate the transfer from private to the government would put the US behind the power curve. In fact, China in the last two decades turned to their own private sector for their own military industrial complex; less state control and look whats happened.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: At what point should we consider nationalizing vital industries? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28203657 - 02/25/23 08:23 AM (10 months, 26 days ago)

That's true in any field where innovation drives competition.  Sure, the government can adequately run a power plant.  Is the federal government going to effectively fund and manage R&D to find cutting edge technologies to improve electricity generation?  No.  Innovation has always come from the private sector.


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